where did they go wrong with combat sentinel??

[jauvtus]

I think the burst for Combat/Carnage is still pretty decent in PvP if you can pull it off. A 10~11k Vicious Throw plus a 12~13k Devestating Blast is a pretty good combo with 10 meter range but it is an easy one to spot and shut down with the 3 second window. I've never been in favor of changing Gore to a charge based system but for PvP it might be the best answer for the spec in the current game environment. I imagine we'd probably only get a 6 second window before the charges wore off tho lol

 

2 charges of Gore that lasts for 6s, Ravage consuming 2 stacks without Berserk would already boost PvP burst greatly, while having basically no effect on PvE.

Edited August 18, 2015 by jauvtus

[Racter]

I think the burst for Combat/Carnage is still pretty decent in PvP if you can pull it off. A 10~11k Vicious Throw plus a 12~13k Devestating Blast is a pretty good combo with 10 meter range but it is an easy one to spot and shut down with the 3 second window. I've never been in favor of changing Gore to a charge based system but for PvP it might be the best answer for the spec in the current game environment. I imagine we'd probably only get a 6 second window before the charges wore off tho lol

 

Did you play it prior to 3.0? 10-11k Vicious Throws were common in 2.0 too. Scream hit harder than DB relative to HP, and hit nearly as hard as it hits now anyway. On top of that, you could drop a full Ravage + Scream + VT in one Gore window with good latency and Berserk. On top of that, a Gore buffed Ravage would literally almost kill someone by itself if you got it off. A Gore Ravage Scream was almost always a kill against an unguarded target if you got it off. It was easy to counter, but very lethal if not stopped. Now it's even easier to counter and not even serious damage even if you don't. On the high end you're looking at maybe 25k? Over 3s, if you aren't stopped. Prior to 3.0, it was 18-25k over the same time frame, and people had 10k less HP on top of that.

 

Compare that to AP, or Concealment, or Marksman, or Deception, or Arsenal. It is the least bursty burst spec and by far the easiest to counter.

[Skettitangles]

Did you play it prior to 3.0? 10-11k Vicious Throws were common in 2.0 too. Scream hit harder than DB relative to HP, and hit nearly as hard as it hits now anyway. On top of that, you could drop a full Ravage + Scream + VT in one Gore window with good latency and Berserk. On top of that, a Gore buffed Ravage would literally almost kill someone by itself if you got it off. A Gore Ravage Scream was almost always a kill against an unguarded target if you got it off. It was easy to counter, but very lethal if not stopped. Now it's even easier to counter and not even serious damage even if you don't. On the high end you're looking at maybe 25k? Over 3s, if you aren't stopped. Prior to 3.0, it was 18-25k over the same time frame, and people had 10k less HP on top of that.

 

Compare that to AP, or Concealment, or Marksman, or Deception, or Arsenal. It is the least bursty burst spec and by far the easiest to counter.

 

Yes. And I remember being able to 1v1 bads in under 4seconds and yes it was awesome. Other burst classes are probably a bit too high in their burst damage output atm this is true. The thing is that the average PvP TTK was supposed to increase in 3.0 and it has. We can look back fondly and reminisce or we can accept the way things are and look forward constructively. It's been proven countless times since 3.0 that the devs refuse to go back and reset anything to the pre 3.0 functionality in these crucial areas of the game. I've found it to be more productive to propose class tweaks without relying too much on pre 3.0 facts and putting up suggestions that focus on maximizing what we have right now

[Racter]

Yes. And I remember being able to 1v1 bads in under 4seconds and yes it was awesome. Other burst classes are probably a bit too high in their burst damage output atm this is true. The thing is that the average PvP TTK was supposed to increase in 3.0 and it has. We can look back fondly and reminisce or we can accept the way things are and look forward constructively. It's been proven countless times since 3.0 that the devs refuse to go back and reset anything to the pre 3.0 functionality in these crucial areas of the game. I've found it to be more productive to propose class tweaks without relying too much on pre 3.0 facts and putting up suggestions that focus on maximizing what we have right now

 

I disagree entirely, especially considering how strong healing is right now. Carnage needs to be brought into line with the others. The fact that the other burst specs have been this strong since 3.0 further strengthens my point, Carnage's burst is clearly under performing compared to the other burst specs, even ignoring the fact that it's the easiest to counter. The problem is that it's sustained is fine in PVE and that's all the dev's care about.

 

There will be no changes prior to 4.0, and the changes we get in 4.0 will not at all help remedy this. Gore will remain the easiest thing to counter in the game, probably stay 3s, and the spec's survivability and damage profile will remain unchanged. Calling it now.

[gawincher]

Have to admit, I miss the days of 4.5 sec precision (that's Gore for all you imperial scums!)

 

Dispatch + Precision + Master Strike + Blade Storm, topped up with a Riposte if lucky, in the opener rotation will surely steal threat from a tank.

[Vodrin]

I disagree entirely, especially considering how strong healing is right now. Carnage needs to be brought into line with the others. The fact that the other burst specs have been this strong since 3.0 further strengthens my point, Carnage's burst is clearly under performing compared to the other burst specs, even ignoring the fact that it's the easiest to counter. The problem is that it's sustained is fine in PVE and that's all the dev's care about.

 

There will be no changes prior to 4.0, and the changes we get in 4.0 will not at all help remedy this. Gore will remain the easiest thing to counter in the game, probably stay 3s, and the spec's survivability and damage profile will remain unchanged. Calling it now.

 

This is probably true, but I think that a CC immunity tied to Gore/precision (similar to the 6 seconds every 30 seconds that fury/concentration get tied to force exhaustion) would do more for the spec than returning some of the burst. Just having a predictable way to ensure you can land a burst window once every 30 seconds would work wonders for the spec, particularly in arenas. And with all the other CC immunity/Added CC breaks out there for other classes, I do not think it would be overpowered. And although it is off topic, I think you could do the same thing for Anni/watchman and tie it to Force Rend/Melt (I hate the ability too, but where it belongs in the PvP burst sequence makes it the logical target for an immunity trigger).

[jauvtus]

This is probably true, but I think that a CC immunity tied to Gore/precision (similar to the 6 seconds every 30 seconds that fury/concentration get tied to force exhaustion) would do more for the spec than returning some of the burst. Just having a predictable way to ensure you can land a burst window once every 30 seconds would work wonders for the spec, particularly in arenas. And with all the other CC immunity/Added CC breaks out there for other classes, I do not think it would be overpowered. And although it is off topic, I think you could do the same thing for Anni/watchman and tie it to Force Rend/Melt (I hate the ability too, but where it belongs in the PvP burst sequence makes it the logical target for an immunity trigger).

 

Increasing Precision/Gore to 4-4.5s (4 to make it more challenging ), buffing MS/Ravage, CB/DB, Dispatch Vicious Throw is the answer, not CC immunity. There are tons of CC flying around, tons of immunities to counter, and in the end it makes no sense. Players shouldnt be asking for more CC and immunities, but much less CC and zero immunities. What would it do for us if we were immune to CC during Precision/Gore, if the damage we deliver is laughable?

Btw about increasing TTK in PvP post3.0: just check AP PT deception sin or conceal op burst. And mara is melee, too.

[Vodrin]

Increasing Precision/Gore to 4-4.5s (4 to make it more challenging ), buffing MS/Ravage, CB/DB, Dispatch Vicious Throw is the answer, not CC immunity. There are tons of CC flying around, tons of immunities to counter, and in the end it makes no sense. Players shouldnt be asking for more CC and immunities, but much less CC and zero immunities. What would it do for us if we were immune to CC during Precision/Gore, if the damage we deliver is laughable?

Btw about increasing TTK in PvP post3.0: just check AP PT deception sin or conceal op burst. And mara is melee, too.

 

But the damage is not laughable. I have no trouble killing targets with combat builds (or any sentinel build for that matter) when I can get my burst off. The trouble comes when I am CC'd and cannot stay on target. The burst was higher pre-3.0 relative to health pools, but that is true of most classes other than the FotM PT's and Sins. Damage is still sufficient to get kills once you are geared correctly (I really will never see how taking half a targets health pool in two global cooldowns is insufficient damage). And the fact you can still fit three attacks in a gore window with reasonable timing (assuming good ping) makes damage consistently good even without beserk. Where the mara/sent class falls behind other classes is more in utilities and immunities than pure damage.

[jauvtus]

But the damage is not laughable. I have no trouble killing targets with combat builds (or any sentinel build for that matter) when I can get my burst off. The trouble comes when I am CC'd and cannot stay on target. The burst was higher pre-3.0 relative to health pools, but that is true of most classes other than the FotM PT's and Sins. Damage is still sufficient to get kills once you are geared correctly (I really will never see how taking half a targets health pool in two global cooldowns is insufficient damage). And the fact you can still fit three attacks in a gore window with reasonable timing (assuming good ping) makes damage consistently good even without beserk. Where the mara/sent class falls behind other classes is more in utilities and immunities than pure damage.

 

OK, I'm convinced, let's give 3 stuns, 5 mezzes and 24s CC immunity to every AC. Enjoy the new Stun Wars.

[Vodrin]

OK, I'm convinced, let's give 3 stuns, 5 mezzes and 24s CC immunity to every AC. Enjoy the new Stun Wars.

 

You are actually making my point for me. The problem is that there are far too many CC's in the game. Since they are not going to take CC's away from opposing AC's, give sents and maras some more immunity to the overabundance of CC in the game.

[Skettitangles]

Ranked leaderboards have a lot of Sent/Maras in Combat/Carnage spec performing very well in solo. Carnage damage is real. If played well that is

[Racter]

But the damage is not laughable. I have no trouble killing targets with combat builds (or any sentinel build for that matter) when I can get my burst off. The trouble comes when I am CC'd and cannot stay on target. The burst was higher pre-3.0 relative to health pools, but that is true of most classes other than the FotM PT's and Sins. Damage is still sufficient to get kills once you are geared correctly (I really will never see how taking half a targets health pool in two global cooldowns is insufficient damage). And the fact you can still fit three attacks in a gore window with reasonable timing (assuming good ping) makes damage consistently good even without beserk. Where the mara/sent class falls behind other classes is more in utilities and immunities than pure damage.

 

As I said before, the damage itself is really not bad. However, it used to be like 1 1 1 10 10 10 1 1 1 10 10 10, now it's more 3 3 3 7 7 7. The damage profile has shifted in favor of sustained at the cost of the brunt of the burst.

[Walkeir]

Honestly I think the main issue with every Sentinel/Marauder spec in 3.0 is the same. they tried and failed miserably to homogenize the builds. In the end all 3 builds suffer greatly from more or less a loss if identity.

 

Combat was single target burst, with good target switching. Now it has lower burst but didn't gain much in return if anything, was arguably the least overall changes.

 

Focus was high aoe burst but lower overall dps. Had its aoe neutered, and was given single target burst.

 

Watchman was high single target sustained dps. Was originally not a dot build, but was a hybrid build that used dots for sustained damage similar to the Vigilance Guardian. This was changed to make us a Dot build but we gained next to none of the tools that the other dot builds have, and therefore end up with the mess that is Watchman today.

[AcaciaDragon]

This is probably true, but I think that a CC immunity tied to Gore/precision (similar to the 6 seconds every 30 seconds that fury/concentration get tied to force exhaustion) would do more for the spec than returning some of the burst. Just having a predictable way to ensure you can land a burst window once every 30 seconds would work wonders for the spec, particularly in arenas. And with all the other CC immunity/Added CC breaks out there for other classes, I do not think it would be overpowered. And although it is off topic, I think you could do the same thing for Anni/watchman and tie it to Force Rend/Melt (I hate the ability too, but where it belongs in the PvP burst sequence makes it the logical target for an immunity trigger).

 

A few issues with this.

 

They wouldnt tie that ability to Gore or Rend, they would just give us another ability that would make us immune, or make the CD greater or lesser depending on the spec. I dont think every discipline should get the same timer if this was the case.

 

If it was tied to it, then the CD would go up, decreasing our DPS as a whole. You cant have a CS immunity every 12 seconds(using Gore as an example). If there was a stipulation for, "This effect canonly occur every 30 sec, or 45 sec" then that would be diffferent, but I dont recall an ability having this stipulation. Its always tied to a proc that is separate.

 

But the damage is not laughable. I have no trouble killing targets with combat builds (or any sentinel build for that matter) when I can get my burst off. The trouble comes when I am CC'd and cannot stay on target. The burst was higher pre-3.0 relative to health pools, but that is true of most classes other than the FotM PT's and Sins. Damage is still sufficient to get kills once you are geared correctly (I really will never see how taking half a targets health pool in two global cooldowns is insufficient damage). And the fact you can still fit three attacks in a gore window with reasonable timing (assuming good ping) makes damage consistently good even without beserk. Where the mara/sent class falls behind other classes is more in utilities and immunities than pure damage.

 

You dont have trouble killing healers on your own? Power Techs? Assasins? Sorcs? what about when there are healers or 2. I find that very difficult to believe, unless you play on a server with terrabads. If everyone had the same gear in a warzone, Marauders actually stay on par, but if our spot was filled with a PT, or Sorc, wouldnt they do better in terms of damage and kills? I suppose you wont have trouble getting kills if you were only targetting Snipers only.

 

The majority of our procs require us to be on target hitting them. Which means we have to be in melee range. Since snares cant be limited, and we cant be made immune to stuns without the same mechanic everyone else has, our only option is to take the Snare on X abilities utility which pales in comparison to the other utilities we can take in the same tier. We are forced to choose which ****** situation we would rather be in.

 

Ranked leaderboards have a lot of Sent/Maras in Combat/Carnage spec performing very well in solo. Carnage damage is real. If played well that is

 

There are a total of 8 sents/Mara's in the top 100. Thats not alot. You know what is? 23 Sorcs/Sages in the top 50.

 

Seriously. This game needs less stuns, and more of them on higher CD's. Resolve bar makes you immune to Stuns for what 12 seconds i think? You have to get stunned for 8-10 seconds to make that happen. Personally, i think for Marauders(or all melee) we need a utility that grants resolve on snares.

[Vodrin]

A few issues with this.

 

They wouldnt tie that ability to Gore or Rend, they would just give us another ability that would make us immune, or make the CD greater or lesser depending on the spec. I dont think every discipline should get the same timer if this was the case.

 

 

They have actually already done this with Fury/concentration spec, as they currently get 6 seconds of complete CC immunity every 30 seconds when they use Force Crush/Force Exhaustion. I don't see why the same thing could not be done with carnage and annihilation. Try fighting a skilled fury/concentration player on any ranged class right now, even a sorc/sage and tell me how easy it is to kite and kill them. If carnage had this sort of immunity it would greatly improve the spec in PvP without overpowering it in PvE. Would it be enough to bring it on par with the best PvP classes like the ones you mention later in your post? I'm not sure, but we should give this sort of CC immunity and evaluate the situation again before doing anything else.

[AcaciaDragon]

They have actually already done this with Fury/concentration spec, as they currently get 6 seconds of complete CC immunity every 30 seconds when they use Force Crush/Force Exhaustion. I don't see why the same thing could not be done with carnage and annihilation. Try fighting a skilled fury/concentration player on any ranged class right now, even a sorc/sage and tell me how easy it is to kite and kill them. If carnage had this sort of immunity it would greatly improve the spec in PvP without overpowering it in PvE. Would it be enough to bring it on par with the best PvP classes like the ones you mention later in your post? I'm not sure, but we should give this sort of CC immunity and evaluate the situation again before doing anything else.

 

Sounds good in theory, but compare Fury/Concentration to Carnage/Combat. If you remove the CC immunity from Fury/Concentration, does the discipline become useless? Is it still playable and competitive? I ask because I have not played it in quite awhile. I tried out Rage a long time ago and remember how unforgiving the rotaiton was if a stun hit you at the wrong time. But the rewards were worth it(especially in VS, holy ****) Which is probably why the CC immunity was added in. We(carnage) didnt need it for 2.X as our damage was there and we were top dogs. But we had no CC immunity still, because we didnt need it.

 

Our Gore window is shorter now. But the CD is slightly lower too. With the change to Berserk adding Alacrity for us its reduced further. Getting stunned for 1 Gore window isnt game breaking. Wait 12 seconds and do it again. Adding CC immunity will not change how much damage we can do if we cant break a healers heals, if we cant stay on target because we have no way to be immune to Movement impairing effects. We can only break them, only to be snared/rooted again.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Sounds good in theory, but compare Fury/Concentration to Carnage/Combat. If you remove the CC immunity from Fury/Concentration, does the discipline become useless? Is it still playable and competitive? I ask because I have not played it in quite awhile. I tried out Rage a long time ago and remember how unforgiving the rotaiton was if a stun hit you at the wrong time. But the rewards were worth it(especially in VS, holy ****) Which is probably why the CC immunity was added in. We(carnage) didnt need it for 2.X as our damage was there and we were top dogs. But we had no CC immunity still, because we didnt need it.

 

Our Gore window is shorter now. But the CD is slightly lower too. With the change to Berserk adding Alacrity for us its reduced further. Getting stunned for 1 Gore window isnt game breaking. Wait 12 seconds and do it again. Adding CC immunity will not change how much damage we can do if we cant break a healers heals, if we cant stay on target because we have no way to be immune to Movement impairing effects. We can only break them, only to be snared/rooted again.

 

Fury is a highly competitive spec even without the CC immunity. Even if we get CC'd, we still can have our burst pre-loaded and ready to use. Carnage can't preload a Gore to be used on one or 2 specific attacks. Also, Carnage has several built in slows, and we still have DST's Slow AND Crippling Slash. Which is for all Marauders.

[AcaciaDragon]

Fury is a highly competitive spec even without the CC immunity. Even if we get CC'd, we still can have our burst pre-loaded and ready to use. Carnage can't preload a Gore to be used on one or 2 specific attacks. Also, Carnage has several built in slows, and we still have DST's Slow AND Crippling Slash. Which is for all Marauders.

 

Crippling slash can only be used in Melee range, which can prevent a target from running away, provided no breaks are popped, or they arent already immune. It doesnt help us close the gap, only maintain it. DST has quite the CD too.

 

Id like to know how many Marauders actually use Crippling slash. When I returned, i found little use for it because of the heals healers are capable of. With all the other abilities and short cooldowns for Gore and Scream, it was hard to weave it into a rotation. Im forcing myself to use it more because I know it can only help me, it just seems like I do less damage overall when i have to use a GCD for it.

 

Ive been experimenting with dropping Cloak of Rage for Maiming Reach and Defensive Rolls for Interceptor and im liking the uptime I have on a target, but I havent played enough to say its a positive or negative change. It seems Marauders arent rewarded for being able to stay on a target, the reward is actually getting to it.

[Racter]

Crippling slash can only be used in Melee range, which can prevent a target from running away, provided no breaks are popped, or they arent already immune. It doesnt help us close the gap, only maintain it. DST has quite the CD too.

 

Id like to know how many Marauders actually use Crippling slash. When I returned, i found little use for it because of the heals healers are capable of. With all the other abilities and short cooldowns for Gore and Scream, it was hard to weave it into a rotation. Im forcing myself to use it more because I know it can only help me, it just seems like I do less damage overall when i have to use a GCD for it.

 

Ive been experimenting with dropping Cloak of Rage for Maiming Reach and Defensive Rolls for Interceptor and im liking the uptime I have on a target, but I havent played enough to say its a positive or negative change. It seems Marauders arent rewarded for being able to stay on a target, the reward is actually getting to it.

 

For Carnage I swap out one Massacre for it just to keep the debuff up. I also take that talent that lets you use it at 10M most of the time, unless I'm playing with a tank that can keep the debuff up for me. For Fury, I swap out one of the two Vicious Slashes for it, talented depending on tank as before.

 

The cc immunity helps but it's not the only reason or even the main reason that Fury is good. Everything but Furious Strike and your VS filler can be used at 10M. It's much easier to dodge KBs/Nades/Bubble Stun/Carbonize at 10M, and 10m means you barely have to even be "on" your target to do most of your damage.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Racter

[Vodrin]

Sounds good in theory, but compare Fury/Concentration to Carnage/Combat. If you remove the CC immunity from Fury/Concentration, does the discipline become useless? Is it still playable and competitive? I ask because I have not played it in quite awhile. I tried out Rage a long time ago and remember how unforgiving the rotaiton was if a stun hit you at the wrong time. But the rewards were worth it(especially in VS, holy ****) Which is probably why the CC immunity was added in. We(carnage) didnt need it for 2.X as our damage was there and we were top dogs. But we had no CC immunity still, because we didnt need it.

 

Our Gore window is shorter now. But the CD is slightly lower too. With the change to Berserk adding Alacrity for us its reduced further. Getting stunned for 1 Gore window isnt game breaking. Wait 12 seconds and do it again. Adding CC immunity will not change how much damage we can do if we cant break a healers heals, if we cant stay on target because we have no way to be immune to Movement impairing effects. We can only break them, only to be snared/rooted again.

 

The immunity in Fury is to all controlling effects (including roots and snares). It is very helpful for staying on target to be immune to all controlling effects for 6 seconds of every thirty seconds. The only other thing I will say having played as Fury/concentration as well as against it. Bioware needs to create a more clear visible representation of when the immunity is active (something like the Vengeance Juggs have after leap would be good). What currently makes carnage frustrating to play is that you are dependent on gore windows for any significant burst and it is to disable those gore windows with CC and kiting. Fury and Annihilation are nowhere near as vulnerable to this.

[Fordbird]

I find it hilarious that the "good" players...the ones writing guides on how to properly use combat and watchman specs immediately jump on anyone posting how miserable sentinels/marauders are to play compared to other classes. Everytime, there is some kind of disclosure in their own arguments telling you they are full of BS. They say "there is nothing wrong with either spec" and in the next breath tell you that it is more difficult to use and does less dps than other classes. Are there 1% of players that can outperform the rest of the Sents/maras? I'm sure there are. But when they act like they're the representational average instead of the exception, they are being very misleading and dishonest. The play style of both combat and watchman are in a poor state for the rest of the 99% of us. I'm glad that 11 of you are killin it, but the rest/most of is need the devs to "throw us a frickin bone here" and quit bonin us. Edited September 1, 2015 by Fordbird
Misspelled words

[Skettitangles]

I don't consider myself part of the top 1% of marauder/sentinel players but I do see why those top players defend the class on the forums quite regularly. I agree that the general fun factor/QOL for this AC is low but there's also the flip side of satisfaction that comes with successfully clearing HM content or doing well in ranked PvP on a mara/sent in the current game environment. It is possible and is being done by a lot of players every day. The things we disagree on are very specific. I think the class still needs work to bolster the fun factor for all levels of players but I don't see any easy way to do that given the direction the devs are taking the game

[Vodrin]

I find it hilarious that the "good" players...the ones writing guides on how to properly use combat and watchman specs immediately jump on anyone posting how miserable sentinels/marauders are to play compared to other classes. Everytime, there is some kind of disclosure in their own arguments telling you they are full of BS. They say "there is nothing wrong with either spec" and in the next breath tell you that it is more difficult to use and does less dps than other classes. Are there 1% of players that can outperform the rest of the Sents/maras? I'm sure there are. But when they act like they're the representational average instead of the exception, they are being very misleading and dishonest. The play style of both combat and watchman are in a poor state for the rest of the 99% of us. I'm glad that 11 of you are killin it, but the rest/most of is need the devs to "throw us a frickin bone here" and quit bonin us.

 

Most of the players I know that have achieved high PvP ranks or have cleared the toughest raids in the game on maras or sents agree that the class needs some help in almost all specs. Some do argue that the "class is complete garbage" threads go too far, and I can agree with that. But just about anyone who plays the class recognizes there are some buffs needed.