Guildmasters: Why do you show favoritism to certain guildies over others?

[MillionsKNives]

lol'd hard. Think what you like. The whole basis of your argument from beginning to end revolved around discrediting my terminology as having been used out of context with semantics & interpersonal interpretations.

 

Not even out of context, completely misrepresented. Out of context would be if he had said that, but in a different context. He didn't. At all.

 

Now that oxford has crumbled the last of that cookie, you sadly have nothing left but unanchored proclamations. Speaking of which... I noticed that when you quoted me the definitions of 'endear', you quoted them in order of google hits.

 

Funnily enough, the definition I gave you for the term is right at the top of the page as the preferred definition. Tsk Meaning you deliberately cherry-picked definitions to support your argument, knowing full well that the word has a dual meaning that would've made my original statement reflect Kalfears in definition to a letter. Disappointing. With deliberate bias like that I'm afraid if it wasn't already nonexistent, the merit of everything you've said thus far would need to be called into question and thrown out. Also add to it that you can be seen vehemently reflecting Kalfears ideology throughout this thread and it's no surprise that any interpretation that didn't glorify the crassness of his statement would be seen as incorrect with unadulterated bias. Since you can not be trusted to debate honorably, I'll take my win here and move on. Wish I could say it was a pleasure, but such behavior is truly unbecoming.

 

You find one word in one instance of a definition that paints a mildly less strong definition of the word and suddenly you're "victorious" in attempting to explain away your strawman. You sure got me there, I totally cherry picked when I provided you 3 definitions from various sites, and you cite one word out of one. Also, "as the preferred definition"? Google now is the authority on preferred definitions? Mmmk.

 

It's a funny thing, sometimes people agree with others and sometimes disagree. Yes, I happen to agree with Kalfear here as we seem to share the same opinion. This is hardly the mark of "unadulterated bias".

 

You create a strawman argument by twisting his words, you come up with ridiculous reasons why it isn't a strawman, you cherry pick a definition and have the gall to claim that I have instead, you declare that I am biased simply for disagreeing with you, and then claim your own victory because I "can't be trusted to debate honorably". Now this, this is comedy.

Edited August 21, 2015 by MillionsKNives

[Monumenta]

snip

 

You don't seem to be aware there's a whole bunch of people disagreeing with you and nobody jumping to defend any of your misrepresentations and false dichotomies.

[Aeristash]

Actually you didn't win, if he didn't say anything I was going to quote your post and say under it:

 

And now SWTOR forums, this here is the classic example of the straw man argument.

 

Seriously, you built up a straw man the second you used the phrase:

 

 

 

That right there is a straw man, because that is not what anyone was saying you took it to the extreme.

 

Proclamation with no elaboration. Post #54 & #60 should cover your claims

[Aeristash]

You don't seem to be aware there's a whole bunch of people disagreeing with you and nobody jumping to defend any of your misrepresentations and false dichotomies.

 

3 (1 with an argument, 2 with none) does not a legion make. And what ever would I need another to jump to my defense for? I don't need my points certified by others to be correct. Please be a dear and feel free to point out these misrepresentations and false dichotomies in detail whenever you wish. Just elaborate on why they're so, instead of making redundant absolutes.

[Monumenta]

3 (1 with an argument, 2 with none) does not a legion make. And what ever would I need another to jump to my defense for? I don't need my points certified by others to be correct. Please be a dear and feel free to point out these misrepresentations and false dichotomies in detail whenever you wish. Just elaborate on why they're so, instead of making redundant absolutes.

 

OK, you are wrong and there are tons of valid arguments posted in this thread that reasonably dispute yours even before you started your current argument with these three people and actually a case can be made your initial statements in this very thread contradict your own latter comments.

 

Your inability to see or accept others points of view as valid and your ability to move the argument from reasonable discussion of actual points to where you perceive you can win, such as splitting hairs on definitions of words we all are aware of the meaning of and misrepresenting someone whose comments can still be viewed correctly above your gross misrepresentations, is not only a textbook straw-man argument it is the exact 'my way or the highway' kind of behavior you are decrying in the first place, which again, proves you have no point and are not even in fact 'arguing' per se but displaying simple, immature, know-it-all behavior.

 

But, all this has already been pointed out to you and you, of course, are to stubborn to see it. Also, I'm sure this isn't the first time and situation in your life you've been told you were acting in this way and I'm sure it doesn't, and wont, phase your ability to keep coming up with nonsensical statements and arguments you may even believe somehow back up whatever it is you think you are trying to say.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Monumenta

[Aeristash]

OK, you are wrong and there are tons of valid arguments posted in this thread that reasonably dispute yours even before you started your current argument with these three people and actually a case can be made your initial statements in this very thread contradict your own latter comments.

 

After the immediate verdict & vague references to my failures, one would figure you'd post exhibits or at the very least point to post numbers of these arguments to cross examine. Didn't even bother to list how my initial statement contradicts with at least one of these post arguments. These are the things that give your condemnations weight in an argument. Your hesitance to do so despite my invitation suggest that you're just drawing this out pointlessly when we could both be moving on to greener pastures.

 

Your inability to see or accept others points of view as valid and your ability to move the argument from reasonable discussion of actual points to where you perceive you can win, such as splitting hairs on definitions of words we all are aware of the meaning of and misrepresenting someone whose comments can still be viewed correctly above your gross misrepresentations, is not only a textbook straw-man argument it is the exact 'my way or the highway' kind of behavior you are decrying in the first place, which again, proves you have no point and are not even in fact 'arguing' per se but displaying simple, immature, know-it-all behavior.

 

I have no point because I rub you the wrong way? Really? lol. Anyways it's interesting you mention my inability to see any view other than my own. Now that's baseless misrepresentation. Post #59 depicts me acknowledging my respect for another users views. Also heavily respect #41 and #68 although I never mentioned it.

 

Well first of all you say "me", when he's talking about having them fit themselves in with a guild. By putting "me" in there you make it sound like they have to satisfy him because he's just some god that has to approve of everyone. Secondly, you use the word "endear", which is far and away from simply "fit in". Using the word "endear" makes it sound like if they don't kiss *** enough then they're out. So like we said, you're misconstruing what he said to make it into a completely different statement than what he said.

 

When you say I split hairs on definitions, you're talking about where the quoted stated that one of the reasons my statement was misconstrued was because I used the word out of context? I didn't realize referencing the definition from an acclaimed university in opposition of the accusation was splitting hairs. Figured it was just me stating a definitive fact to show that I did not misconstrue the meaning. Please feel free to actually read and not just glance the argument. Sign of maturity & all that.

 

But, all this has already been pointed out to you and you, of course, are to stubborn to see it. Also, I'm sure this isn't the first time and situation in your life you've been told you were acting in this way and I'm sure it doesn't, and wont, phase your ability to keep coming up with nonsensical statements and arguments you may even believe somehow back up whatever it is you think you are trying to say.

 

All I see is a lengthier redundant absolute with lots of vague references to try and back its meatless convictions. What a lackluster waste of time. l2crossreference your details.

[Draqsko]

Proclamation with no elaboration. Post #54 & #60 should cover your claims

 

Actually, this covers my claims:

 

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

1.Person 1 asserts proposition X.

2.Person 2 argues against a false but superficially similar proposition Y, as if an argument against Y were an argument against X.

 

This reasoning is a fallacy of relevance: it fails to address the proposition in question by misrepresenting the opposing position.

 

For example:

Quoting an opponent's words out of context—i.e., choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).

Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then denying that person's arguments—thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.

Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

 

The bolded points are the crux of your original argument, and therefore a straw man. You built one up by taking the extreme position, endear yourself or leave, and then attacked that position not the original position of your opponent.

 

You can quote, cite, argue, and lie to yourself, but everyone else on this forum sees right through it.

[Aeristash]

Actually, this covers my claims:

 

 

 

The bolded points are the crux of your original argument, and therefore a straw man. You built one up by taking the extreme position, endear yourself or leave, and then attacked that position not the original position of your opponent.

 

You can quote, cite, argue, and lie to yourself, but everyone else on this forum sees right through it.

 

WOW

Bullying?

Seriously?

 

News flash for people, guilds do not actually have to make a enviroment for anyone but themselves

 

And you do not need to belong to that guild if you are not happy with it

 

They owe you exactly ZERO

And vise versa

 

And thats NOT Bullying of any type or way.

 

This modern age mentality that everyone has to treat you like a special little flower is complete PC Nonsense.

 

If you are not happy with your guild.

Move on and find one you are happy with

Its exactly that simple

 

But for god sake do not enter any guild thinking because thats just NOT TRUE or realistic

 

Some guilds pander to PVP

Some Guilds pander to PVE

Some guilds focus on ops

Some guilds focus on conquest

Some guilds focus on Role Play

Some guilds focus numbers (never understood those guilds but what ever, to each their own)

 

It is YOUR JOB to fit in if you can

And to move on if you can not

Its not their job to create a special environment for you

They create the environment for the guild

 

YOU find a way to fit in

 

And you not fitting in IS NOT EVER ANY KIND OF BULLYING

What are we?

3 years old?

 

There is a guild that fits every type of person and play style out there

but its up to the individual to find the right fit for themselves

 

Join my guild, endear yourself to me or step off? That kind of attitude may not be bullying, but it isn't right either. How can you expect them to reach out & integrate with the group when you, the creator, don't feel it necessary to do the same? As a gm or officer, you are indeed obligated to make a nice gaming environment for your peers and cull the ones who don't fit the mold, instead of letting them feel excluded by their lonesome whilst holding onto the advantages they add to your guild. A guild is give & take and if you're taking then you need be giving back as much or double. Those people are contributing their time & energy as well as to the xp/guild percentage, not because they have to but because they want & deserve the benefits of the supportive environment that they're helping to make possible. And yes, you don't have to dote on anyone, but you can at the very minimum remain friendly & cordial whilst not flaunting any behavior that might make them feel undervalued. If you absolutely must let sue know what a wondrous addition she is to the guild in comparison to tom, there's an officer or private chat. No need to rub it in the entirety of the rank & file faces.

 

lol'd. took the extreme position and attacked a distorted meaning indeed. If you'd read post 60, you'd see my explanation of why I phrased it that way and know that it was not a quotation but a summary of the post message in the first person. I suggest remedial reading comprehension classes for the whole of the phantom legion. And please if you intend to argue that I misrepresented the color coated portions, I hope you plan to provide alternative meanings. lololololol enjoy that strawman fallacy of yours.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Aeristash

[ScarletBlaze]

May I suggest the ones arguing back and forth agree to disagree?

 

 

 

And on topic sometimes it is not the guildmaster that is not trying to make a person feel welcome. My boyfriend and I run a small guild and there been a couple of times we invited someone to join and everyone said hi to them and they didn't respond and never answered us back.

 

There are also times when a new person will join expecting you to drop everything and run them through their missions just because you have a level 60. This has happened to us a couple of times.

 

It is not always the guildmaster's fault when a person refuses to acknowledge anyone in the guild. We have a guild of great people that will say hello and try to talk to a new person, but you can only do so much when the new person does not talk or respond when you try.

Edited August 22, 2015 by ScarletBlaze

[Monumenta]

You can quote, cite, argue, and lie to yourself, but everyone else on this forum sees right through it.

 

so much this

[Draqsko]

lol'd. took the extreme position and attacked a distorted meaning indeed. If you'd read post 60, you'd see my explanation of why I phrased it that way and know that it was not a quotation but a summary of the post message in the first person. I suggest remedial reading comprehension classes for the whole of the phantom legion. And please if you intend to argue that I misrepresented the color coated portions, I hope you plan to provide alternative meanings. lololololol enjoy that strawman fallacy of yours.

 

Again, your first sentence in your post to Kalfear is a straw man. Kalfear never said anything about people "endearing themselves to the guild leader or they should leave." That sentence is stuffing a man with straw, you tried to oversimplify his argument and attack the oversimplification rather than his argument. You highlight points, but those points are attacking the straw man analogous to his points, not his actual points.

 

I would suggest you not suggest stuff to people when you lack a basic comprehension of debate tactics and logical fallacies.

 

Edit:

Red text you highlighted in your statement:

News flash for people, guilds do not actually have to make a enviroment for anyone but themselves

 

And you do not need to belong to that guild if you are not happy with it

...

It is YOUR JOB to fit in if you can

And to move on if you can not

Its not their job to create a special environment for you

They create the environment for the guild

How can you expect them to reach out & integrate with the group when you, the creator, don't feel it necessary to do the same? As a gm or officer, you are indeed obligated to make a nice gaming environment for your peers and cull the ones who don't fit the mold, instead of letting them feel excluded by their lonesome whilst holding onto the advantages they add to your guild.

 

Blue text:

They owe you exactly ZERO

And vise versa

A guild is give & take and if you're taking then you need be giving back as much or double. Those people are contributing their time & energy as well as to the xp/guild percentage, not because they have to but because they want & deserve the benefits of the supportive environment that they're helping to make possible

 

Green Text:

This modern age mentality that everyone has to treat you like a special little flower is complete PC Nonsense.

And yes, you don't have to dote on anyone, but you can at the very minimum remain friendly & cordial whilst not flaunting any behavior that might make them feel undervalued. If you absolutely must let sue know what a wondrous addition she is to the guild in comparison to tom, there's an officer or private chat. No need to rub it in the entirety of the rank & file faces.

 

You didn't argue one of his points, you argued your own twisted view of it.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Draqsko

[Aeristash]

May I suggest the ones arguing back and forth agree to disagree?

 

Agreed. It's devolved into a petty semantics debate and that's not what this topic is about.

[Draqsko]

Agreed. It's devolved into a petty semantics debate and that's not what this topic is about.

 

Neither was your argument with Kalfear, since he said nothing like what you stated in your original reply to him.

 

What he said makes perfect common sense, guilds do not exist for your benefit, and if you aren't fitting in you really aren't benefitting the guild you are in anyways.

 

Guild members are helping their guild by being active and engaged in their guild, not contributing xp or rep bonuses. If that is all you expect from your guild members, you must have a really quiet guild chat.

 

I expect my members to talk, even if only occasionally it's nice to know they are still breathing.

I expect my members to join in events or group up for stuff, they get to meet more people on more intimate terms than otherwise plus a lot of the events we host do not depend on player level, skill or gear.

I expect my members to part of my guild not just join it and leech the xp and rep bonuses we already have capped, but hey I realize not everyone warms up quickly and therefore I don't just kick people but let them find their own path to happiness. Every person that I personally invite, I tell them to check it out and see if they like it, if they don't I'll help them find a guild on the server they will happy with because it's more important to me that they remain on the server than be in my guild.

 

If you can't do any of the above in my guild, why should I bend over backwards for you when you can't even put in the slightest effort to belong?

[easindahouse]

Because showing favoritism is a very VERY mild form of bullying. It's isolation bullying when you are supposedly trying to create a "social" environment for EVERYONE not the ones you pick and choose

 

A guild is a social environment for the ones you pick and choose, not everyone. If you fit with a guild, then stay. If you don't and somehow feel "bullied" then leave. A guild is a group of people that choose to play a game together... Sometimes they are more than that. Sometimes they are just a chat channel.

 

Remember there are many different types of guilds, and there are many different types of guild members. In my opinion, people that cry over favoritism are generally new to a guild OR expect something from people.

Edited August 22, 2015 by easindahouse

[SHLOOMPA]

This one sounds more like personal choice and/or personality then anything else to me. The guild im in is run by cousins who have known each other their entire lives and are close to each other. Yet in no way do they ever favor one over the other when it comes to decisions about raids, and/or group-related stuff. They make fun of each and they make fun of us and vice versa. It is the closest thing to "equal" that I have seen.

 

And those that are new are treated EXACTLY the same way. As if they have known that person for a long time. They joke with them, make conversation with them. So please spare me this common sense thing you mention because it's all about personality and if your style is to isolate (even when it is unintentional) then that has nothing to do with common sense.

 

This is very funny to me Roy, considering the reason I left the guild you are in. I was a founding member of the guild and on the council, also the main tank of the 8m HM progression team since it was formed. There is so much that I would like to say right now but I am so upset with the way things have played out that I'm afraid I cannot reply in a calm manner. I will say this, AJE was not built by those 2 cousins who now take credit for the guilds accomplishments, it was built by a group of people who wanted to run 8m HM progression. I was a founder and had a voice until Seb decided that he was the GM. The guild was run by 4 people who all took turns with GM, trading off every month because the guild was not controlled, it was indeed a democracy. when I left, the final words to me were, "this is not a democracy". Seb told me that right before he basically told me to **** because I was informing the guild of the reasons why I left the guild in the first place. BTW I left with the guild at 3/10 HM and left for 2 months, they did not progress with their new "Leadership". I returned and the guild progressed to 7/10.....I mention this because your "leaders" have made comments about my skill as a tank, calling me a bad tank etc. My strategies progressed AJE not your so called "leader" cousins whom btw wouldn't be 7/10 now if I hadn't returned to AJE for the period I did, just to realize that some people will never give credit where it is actually due and instead put themselves on an imaginary pedestal for nobody to see and or give a damn. So to your "leaders" of AJE and how everyone has a voice and how they treat everyone the same and blah blah blah......I say ********. They will treat you nice as long as you **** and listen to them and their fail techniques. good luck progressing.

[royhenderson]

This is very funny to me Roy, considering the reason I left the guild you are in. I was a founding member of the guild and on the council, also the main tank of the 8m HM progression team since it was formed. There is so much that I would like to say right now but I am so upset with the way things have played out that I'm afraid I cannot reply in a calm manner. I will say this, AJE was not built by those 2 cousins who now take credit for the guilds accomplishments, it was built by a group of people who wanted to run 8m HM progression. I was a founder and had a voice until Seb decided that he was the GM. The guild was run by 4 people who all took turns with GM, trading off every month because the guild was not controlled, it was indeed a democracy. when I left, the final words to me were, "this is not a democracy". Seb told me that right before he basically told me to **** because I was informing the guild of the reasons why I left the guild in the first place. BTW I left with the guild at 3/10 HM and left for 2 months, they did not progress with their new "Leadership". I returned and the guild progressed to 7/10.....I mention this because your "leaders" have made comments about my skill as a tank, calling me a bad tank etc. My strategies progressed AJE not your so called "leader" cousins whom btw wouldn't be 7/10 now if I hadn't returned to AJE for the period I did, just to realize that some people will never give credit where it is actually due and instead put themselves on an imaginary pedestal for nobody to see and or give a damn. So to your "leaders" of AJE and how everyone has a voice and how they treat everyone the same and blah blah blah......I say ********. They will treat you nice as long as you **** and listen to them and their fail techniques. good luck progressing.

To be fair, your situation was alot different than the way things are now. Remember I said it is run by them. I never said the guild was created by them. In your case it got to the point where clearly personalities were clashing and like others have mentioned, when that happens it's time to leave and go elsewhere.

[thejediKnightjim]

never i run a pub side guild. them all have there own stuff they like to do if they need help i help them out.

[branmakmuffin]

This is very funny to me Roy, considering the reason I left the guild you are in. I was a founding member of the guild and on the council [snip].

None of what I snipped is the least bit surprising, whoever was to blame for the travails I snipped. This is what happens in guilds. "This is my little pond and I am going to be the biggest fish in it. Deal with it or leave." The type of person who generally wants to be a GM in an MMO is a mousy goober who feels ill-used IRL and he's going to show everyone what a big man he truly is by lording over the plebes in a club in a computer game. They are they guys who always had to play the most powerful character in olde tyme (A)D&D.

 

[Beltane]

I expect my members to talk, even if only occasionally it's nice to know they are still breathing.

I expect my members to join in events or group up for stuff, they get to meet more people on more intimate terms than otherwise plus a lot of the events we host do not depend on player level, skill or gear.

I expect my members to part of my guild not just join it and leech the xp and rep bonuses we already have capped, but hey I realize not everyone warms up quickly and therefore I don't just kick people but let them find their own path to happiness. Every person that I personally invite, I tell them to check it out and see if they like it, if they don't I'll help them find a guild on the server they will happy with because it's more important to me that they remain on the server than be in my guild.

 

If you can't do any of the above in my guild, why should I bend over backwards for you when you can't even put in the slightest effort to belong?

This is so accurate.

 

I value my members but not at the expense of singling them out and pandering to them when I have a whole guild of people who are happy to contribute and participate. I don't mind if all someone does is log in and chat in guild chat, because that's still participation.

 

Most of the people who wind up quitting my guild are the ones that sit in the background, silent, contributing nothing. I usually try to talk to them, always say hi when they log in, etc. If I barely get any responses I can already tell that person's not a great fit and will probably stealth quit one day. And I'm usually right.

[branmakmuffin]

Most of the people who wind up quitting my guild are the ones that sit in the background, silent, contributing nothing. I usually try to talk to them, always say hi when they log in, etc. If I barely get any responses I can already tell that person's not a great fit and will probably stealth quit one day. And I'm usually right.

On that tangent, "stealth quitting" is the best way to quit a guild, for the guild and the member.

[royhenderson]

On that tangent, "stealth quitting" is the best way to quit a guild, for the guild and the member.

video proof or not true.

[Draqsko]

On that tangent, "stealth quitting" is the best way to quit a guild, for the guild and the member.

 

Actually, the best way to quit was the way my girlfriend and I left the Guardians to go run our own guild.

 

We told everyone in guild chat we were leaving, that while their guild is great organization and has great people there is just something there where we didn't fit in and that was nothing about them personally. They are all a class act, and we'd be glad to join them if they ever needed any help.

 

But if you can't leave on a good note, the second best option is stealth quitting rather than be a drama queen.

[branmakmuffin]

Actually, the best way to quit was the way my girlfriend and I left the Guardians to go run our own guild.

 

We told everyone in guild chat we were leaving, that while their guild is great organization and has great people there is just something there where we didn't fit in and that was nothing about them personally. They are all a class act, and we'd be glad to join them if they ever needed any help.

 

But if you can't leave on a good note, the second best option is stealth quitting rather than be a drama queen.

If you left without being drama monarchs, then that's nearly as good as stealth quitting. But it can give the appearance of trying to get others to come along with you. So I still say stealth quitting is the best way.

[I-Win-Button]

I'll have to disagree on "stealth quitting" being the best way. Sure, there will be some guild leaders who simply won't care or be glad you're gone but most I know would wonder what caused it.

 

Guilds lose people all the time for all sorts of reasons. The most common ones, in my experience, is not having enough time to play the game or finding a guild more suited to what they want. Any good guild leader will be able to look at that and be content knowing that it wasn't the result of any flaw on the guild's part. Same goes for a good guild. There will be a goodbye and all that, followed by a few comments in guild chat and normally that's all there is to it. No drama at all and people know what's going on.

 

If you're leaving because of an issue with the guild, it's members or leadership, I'd still say it's best to inform someone in the leadership of your issue before leaving. Say goodbye to whoever is online at the time, maybe mention that you have issues with 'X' that can't be resolved and take your leave. There will be speculation, sure, but no more than if you just disappeared and this way the leadership knows what was wrong and can hopefully fix it.

 

Whatever the case may be, simply leaving without a word does nothing but create speculation on why you're gone and leave any potential issues a mystery. You might not be there to see the 'drama' but it's likely still happening.

[Draqsko]

If you left without being drama monarchs, then that's nearly as good as stealth quitting. But it can give the appearance of trying to get others to come along with you. So I still say stealth quitting is the best way.

 

Considering we were good friends with the guild before we joined, and after we left, I doubt anyone got that impression. Because of those friendships, I didn't want to just leave without saying anything and to make it clear that our leaving had absolutely nothing to do with them or their guild.

 

As I said, if you can't leave on a good note (and leaving the impression you are trying to steal members is not a good note), you are better off to leave quietly. Not just for your soon to be former guild, but for your own good as well. That type of reputation tends to follow people around.