Lost opportunities - why i wont extend sub..

[BromiDista]

Their first mmo and they do great with story driven questlines and not so great with PVP? I dunno why people are surprised. I'm still enjoying Warzones either way, knowing full well that due to the very fact that this is Bioware's super expensive heavyweight, there'll be a lot of TLC on it's way.

 

We're 6 days in. I'm not frustrated, I'm excited. And there's everything from UI bugs to memory leaks to fix up before they start concentrating on perfecting a pvp system that resembles WoW a decade after release. Cut them some slack - enjoy other aspects until the weak points are improved. That "sub" you're dropping is free this month anyway, I should point out.

 

 

 

As for me, i will do a little more of the storyline

 

That said, I get the feeling you've just picked the wrong mmo, mate

Edited December 26, 2011 by BromiDista

[UglyPete]

Most of the whiners are Dec and Nov 2011....go figure....

 

More people ordered the game in NOV and December...

[Fredder]

NOTE: These comments are from the perspective of a proper PvP player. As such most of the playerbase will not agree to the views.

 

THE ARGUMENTS PRESENTED BELOW IS WHY I CANCELED MY SUB.

 

Facts:

There are more fans of fantasy than of sci-fi

There are more carebear players than PvPers

While there are far more carebears than PvPers, the latter crowd is still a large one

and i firmly believe that the game to reconcile the two crowds will draw great benefit

we generally don`t like each other, but games that have both of us instantly get

deeper, more engaging and alot more interesting.

 

The Old Republic was from day one in a unique position to capitalize on both genres and both player bases.

 

Star Wars is a fantasy game in a sci-fi setting. It has rich lore and already-written stories one can draw upon to provide tremendous content for PvE (carebear) players and work as a background for the PvPers.

 

Unfortunately Bioware drew singularly on WOW in developing their MMO and just as singularly on their own content and gameplay creation tradition with regards filling up this new world of theirs.

 

They`ve designed a game that feels very much like a single player game i`ve already played which is set in a universe catering to carebears (PvE players). While not innovating anywhere the solo content is safe and strong (which is why i`m playing it). Late game raiding might be fun for the carebears and certainly they approve of the on-training-wheels-PvP in the safety of arenas. And yes, i call Ilum an Arena. It`s one planet in a large universe, so it`s an arena- Calling it open world PvP is an insult to proper PvPers.

 

I was hoping they would at least take a look at what EVE and Perpetuum have done in regards to player driven economies and structuring PvP. I was hoping that the outer rim and border zones would be similar to EVEs low-sec areas (which would be in keeping with SW lore), but no.

 

Arenas, Warzones, Duels and consensual PvP without any penalties or consequences is NOT PvP. I was hoping for war declarations on other guilds, piracy and harassment and a sense of danger when traversing this dangerous universe..

 

..but what i have found is a kiddie-proofed-playground full of watchfull parents ensuring everyone plays "safe".

 

But Bioware should be aware that the uniqueness of their universe could have drawn a sizeable PvP playerbase if they had made the effort. Star Wars could have been a game that provided great PvE AND great PvP at the same time.

 

Maybe Bioware were to caught up in their own development history and the success of WOWs recipy. Maybe they just wanted a safe bet, as the stakes were high. The result however was that many players will probably like me, play the some or all of the single player story and then move on to another game. As for me, i will do a little more of the storyline, but will prioritize my EVE-online accounts where the politics and PvP actually matter.

 

do u not understand that they kinda had to do it this way? think about it, for the players that have lvled to 50 alrady would be in a cap by themself waiting 2 hours for a que? instead ot looking at whats right in front of u think of what s most likly coming in month or two when everyone has gotten to max lvl. there will be brackets im sure. so lay off the QQ sauce and go back to being the "proper" pvper... lol "proper"

[Necrolepsy]

Did you reach challenger title last season to make you a proper pvp player?

[vekkth]

isn't EVE online dying? lol

I didn't expect a BIG PRO PVP scene in swtor

 

btw im sc2 player (master league) and I love this game =)

 

EVE online is probably the most stable mmo out there in terms of growing number of players. right now they are around 400k.

 

to the OP - while i do not agree on the most things you've said, i absolutely agree on the fact that Bioware have chosen a path of the devil indeed - just following WoW cliches adding some improvements. As you, i would much more prefer an open zones where you can truly experiment. Right now pvp experience is so narrow and so old (battlegrounds? oh **** this is so fresh, yeah). tbh i already grew tired of them, after years of WoW i really cant see how people can find them appealing or interesting. even WaR rvr right now is much better and its the same team, why not to take good design ideas, its beyond my understanding.

 

again, i disagree on all the PvP vs Carebear stuff (since obviously you do not know a **** of proper hardcore pve raiding, you wouldnt dare to call this people carebears), but this point stands.

[Stoptakingmyname]

(in fact, the encounters have been beaten in Week 2 of release LOL)

 

LOL?

 

Pretty sure the only people who are laughing are the people who HAVEN'T been playing this game 12 hours a day since release.

 

Wait. They probably aren't laughing because they have socials lives, jobs, relationships and all that other stuff that just gets in the way of gaming.

[TheRiddick]

I agree, that there needs to be some sort of reward for Open world PvP. Right now we dont even get any comendations, or valor... nothing. maybe player death penalty would be nice, but not loss of gear... nothing stupid like that... I played eve for a little while... worked my *** off to get my ship geared out then got ganked by 4 ships that were 3 tiers higher than me, lost everything, cancelled my sub. If it was a 1 v 1 with someone my own level.. cool... but 4 guys who make it their goal to hunt down players faaaaar below thier level.. no thanks... I imagine I am not the only person who thinks this way... objectives yes... penalties no.

[ExarKuune]

When starting a discussion it is always important to start off with an aggressive statement before getting reasonable. That way you spoke a defensiveness and engagement that more often than not surface a wide range of views that otherwise might not come to light.

 

This discussion is looking very good and absolutely depict the fault lines i wanted to talk about.

 

I hope this discussion goes on and that the developers might take some notes on how to elaborate on PvP functionality- hopefully without deterring those who absolutely don`t want anything to do with anything remotely looking like PvP.

 

A good MMO should have a healthy mix of BOTH PvE players and PvPers. While dedicated PvE raiders will never like it, i do believe the extra layer of danger and suspicion a deep PvP mechanic brings, will help promote the "star wars" atmosphere so many are missing...

 

...after all. This galaxy far far away is supposedly treacherous and frightening as much as it is beautiful and luring...

[BaxAttack]

What he's trying to say is he's bad. Move along.

[indelible]

NOTE: These comments are from the perspective of a proper PvP player. As such most of the playerbase will not agree to the views.

 

THE ARGUMENTS PRESENTED BELOW IS WHY I CANCELED MY SUB.

 

Facts:

There are more fans of fantasy than of sci-fi

There are more carebear players than PvPers

While there are far more carebears than PvPers, the latter crowd is still a large one

and i firmly believe that the game to reconcile the two crowds will draw great benefit

we generally don`t like each other, but games that have both of us instantly get

deeper, more engaging and alot more interesting.

 

The Old Republic was from day one in a unique position to capitalize on both genres and both player bases.

 

Star Wars is a fantasy game in a sci-fi setting. It has rich lore and already-written stories one can draw upon to provide tremendous content for PvE (carebear) players and work as a background for the PvPers.

 

Unfortunately Bioware drew singularly on WOW in developing their MMO and just as singularly on their own content and gameplay creation tradition with regards filling up this new world of theirs.

 

They`ve designed a game that feels very much like a single player game i`ve already played which is set in a universe catering to carebears (PvE players). While not innovating anywhere the solo content is safe and strong (which is why i`m playing it). Late game raiding might be fun for the carebears and certainly they approve of the on-training-wheels-PvP in the safety of arenas. And yes, i call Ilum an Arena. It`s one planet in a large universe, so it`s an arena- Calling it open world PvP is an insult to proper PvPers.

 

I was hoping they would at least take a look at what EVE and Perpetuum have done in regards to player driven economies and structuring PvP. I was hoping that the outer rim and border zones would be similar to EVEs low-sec areas (which would be in keeping with SW lore), but no.

 

Arenas, Warzones, Duels and consensual PvP without any penalties or consequences is NOT PvP. I was hoping for war declarations on other guilds, piracy and harassment and a sense of danger when traversing this dangerous universe..

 

..but what i have found is a kiddie-proofed-playground full of watchfull parents ensuring everyone plays "safe".

 

But Bioware should be aware that the uniqueness of their universe could have drawn a sizeable PvP playerbase if they had made the effort. Star Wars could have been a game that provided great PvE AND great PvP at the same time.

 

Maybe Bioware were to caught up in their own development history and the success of WOWs recipy. Maybe they just wanted a safe bet, as the stakes were high. The result however was that many players will probably like me, play the some or all of the single player story and then move on to another game. As for me, i will do a little more of the storyline, but will prioritize my EVE-online accounts where the politics and PvP actually matter.

 

Fact: You are as "proper" a PvPer as everyone else is.

Fact: You have not played at level 50. You have not experienced Ilum.

 

FACT: No one cares. Go back to Eve.

[tonykart]

I agree with everything the OP said.

 

Problem is, you have 12 year olds playing this game and 40 year olds. And, for some reason people like fighting fake creatures for gear over and over again. I don't understand it at all, but that's the case. Bioware definitely went the "safe" route for sure. I was hoping for a refined SWG... what we got was WoW in space.

 

TBH, at times, I don't even feel like im in the Star Wars Universe.

[tonykart]

I agree, that there needs to be some sort of reward for Open world PvP. Right now we dont even get any comendations, or valor... nothing. maybe player death penalty would be nice, but not loss of gear... nothing stupid like that... I played eve for a little while... worked my *** off to get my ship geared out then got ganked by 4 ships that were 3 tiers higher than me, lost everything, cancelled my sub. If it was a 1 v 1 with someone my own level.. cool... but 4 guys who make it their goal to hunt down players faaaaar below thier level.. no thanks... I imagine I am not the only person who thinks this way... objectives yes... penalties no.

 

There doesn't need to be stupid rewards for Open world PvP. If you play on a PvP server, you should be able to kill anyone, anywhere, anytime. this whole business of NPC guards and same faction safety is trash, but so many people are so sensitive Bioware just cant do that.

 

Adding rewards to open world pvp takes away the whole point.

[Saberdance]

I remember when the standard for MUDs was the loss of all your items and a good chunk of experience when you died.

 

Because of that, PKs were terrified of a fair fight and just waited until you were fighting a few mobs to jump in and try to gank you. Or they picked targets significantly below their level. If you killed them back, they would rage so hard you could almost hear the tears trickling down their face. They'd beg for their stuff back, beg you to stop camping them back down to level 1, and threaten to get the ops on you for griefing them.

 

They were cowards. They didn't want actual PvP because the "versus" part was too much of a gamble. I've come to understand that's how most of the people asking for no-holds-barred PvP would operate-- only coming out to fight if it's almost impossible to lose. It's fine when they're winning but once they're the ones who lose all their hard work, suddenly its unfair. And they'll cry endlessly about it when it happens.

 

Having no real penalties to death is a positive change. It lets the PKs occasionally get their sense of accomplishment without risking too much and it lets people who just want to level a bit continue without too much grief.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Saberdance

[Foenixz]

NOTE: These comments are from the perspective of a proper PvP player. As such most of the playerbase will not agree to the views.

 

 

stopped reading at this ......

[tonykart]

I remember when the standard for MUDs was the loss of all your items and a good chunk of experience when you died.

 

Because of that, PKs were terrified of a fair fight and just waited until you were fighting a few mobs to jump in and try to gank you. Or they picked targets significantly below their level. If you killed them back, they would rage so hard you could almost hear the tears trickling down their face. They'd beg for their stuff back, beg you to stop camping them back down to level 1, and threaten to get the ops on you for griefing them.

 

They were cowards. They didn't want actual PvP because the "versus" part was too much of a gamble. I've come to understand that's how most of the people asking for no-holds-barred PvP would operate-- only coming out to fight if it's almost impossible to lose. It's fine when they're winning but once they're the ones who lose all their hard work, suddenly its unfair. And they'll cry endlessly about it when it happens.

 

Having no real penalties to death is a positive change. It lets the PKs occasionally get their sense of accomplishment without risking too much and it lets people who just want to level a bit continue without too much grief.

 

I approve this message.

[Dephness]

You guys know the beta is over right? You no longer have to lick Bioware's bottom right? The PVP in SW:TOR is very weak with little to no reward. Add this to the fact that there is no high end-game PVE raid content (in fact, the encounters have been beaten in Week 2 of release LOL) and you, along with everyone else, will find out there is no reason to play past level 49.

 

PVP enables players to create their own personal content. That is the purpose of PVP. But with no objectives, nothing to hold, nothing to build, nothing to defend and no way to have bragging rights or distinguish yourself the game becomes as interesting as an already beaten Doom.

 

So by this definition... WoW is a ****** game PvE wise as well? A couple guilds have beaten Death wing HEROIC which is supposed to be the hardest **** "ever" A couple weeks within release of the instance. SO again why are you even playing a genre that is basically the two best games in it are complete **** in your eyes. You either need to stop playing mmos, Or just stop posting your useless thoughts on a board and go outside and play in the sandbox.

[Repefe]

stopped reading at this ......

 

OP basically says that BW did a good job at designing game for casual players ... so he and the other 5% of potential proper PvP players will leave.

[Caeliux]

 

They`ve designed a game that feels very much like a single player game i`ve already played which is set in a universe catering to carebears (PvE players).

 

The designed a mmo for alot of people to play, and what do you mean catering?

 

Nobody cares about you, so why include people in your thread?

Edited December 27, 2011 by Caeliux

[vekkth]

I remember when the standard for MUDs was the loss of all your items and a good chunk of experience when you died.

 

Because of that, PKs were terrified of a fair fight and just waited until you were fighting a few mobs to jump in and try to gank you. Or they picked targets significantly below their level. If you killed them back, they would rage so hard you could almost hear the tears trickling down their face. They'd beg for their stuff back, beg you to stop camping them back down to level 1, and threaten to get the ops on you for griefing them.

 

They were cowards. They didn't want actual PvP because the "versus" part was too much of a gamble. I've come to understand that's how most of the people asking for no-holds-barred PvP would operate-- only coming out to fight if it's almost impossible to lose. It's fine when they're winning but once they're the ones who lose all their hard work, suddenly its unfair. And they'll cry endlessly about it when it happens.

 

Having no real penalties to death is a positive change. It lets the PKs occasionally get their sense of accomplishment without risking too much and it lets people who just want to level a bit continue without too much grief.

 

i also approve this message. it speaks the truth.

[Gankdalf_]

Seeing more and more of these posts and also I see more and more of it in general chat, I am now actually asking people I quest with what plans they have. The vast majority say 2 months max.

 

The future does not look good for this game and I agree totally with the OP, it's a safe and sound carebear experience, certainly nothing at all like any of the 6 films.

[Scelerant]

Seeing more and more of these posts and also I see more and more of it in general chat, I am now actually asking people I quest with what plans they have. The vast majority say 2 months max.

 

The future does not look good for this game and I agree totally with the OP, it's a safe and sound carebear experience, certainly nothing at all like any of the 6 films.

 

The thing is, the game has everything the films have, it's just that once that "story!!" novelty wears off at around level 30 you start to realize that you are doing the same exact quests as in every other game.

 

Overall the game feels a lot like a One Piece storyline, you really only need to get from A - B but you can be sure that they've put every detour you can imagine, plus some you couldn't into the game.

[ExarKuune]

The thing is, the game has everything the films have, it's just that once that "story!!" novelty wears off at around level 30 you start to realize that you are doing the same exact quests as in every other game.

 

Overall the game feels a lot like a One Piece storyline, you really only need to get from A - B but you can be sure that they've put every detour you can imagine, plus some you couldn't into the game.

 

This is my point of contention exactly.

 

Bioware made a big public note of how they had hired the worlds best and foremost PvP content designers.

 

I must say i am hard pressed to find where these world class designers have put in their work..

[DarthNemis]

Dude is right though. PVP needs a ton of work. We dont have any world pvp at all, and it sucks.

[ninjashadowdark]

You guys know the beta is over right? You no longer have to lick Bioware's bottom right? The PVP in SW:TOR is very weak with little to no reward. Add this to the fact that there is no high end-game PVE raid content (in fact, the encounters have been beaten in Week 2 of release LOL) and you, along with everyone else, will find out there is no reason to play past level 49.

 

PVP enables players to create their own personal content. That is the purpose of PVP. But with no objectives, nothing to hold, nothing to build, nothing to defend and no way to have bragging rights or distinguish yourself the game becomes as interesting as an already beaten Doom.

 

wow really sometimes i wonder why you keep playing Games then if this is your purpose of playing. thank you for speaking for every one ii have my reasons to keep playing . i Find something to do always and i stay on the game . If you don't like the game then leave i am sure the rest of us will enjoy it and stay look at eq2 look at all the other games still still have there fans. so if your a hater this is the wrong game for you

[GyroGate]

I actually agree to this.

 

The PvP in this game has a lot of potential(like many other games have had), but it is not giving the PvP community what it wants.

 

I wonder how many times I've read that this game has some of the "best" PvP-devs in the world - then why is there hardly any PvP in this game - as well as no rewards for world PvP?

 

I'm sorry, but stating that you have the best PvP-devs is such a big lie.