Temple of Sacrifice, the pug nightmare.

[ATAMIANM]

You may have hit on something...

 

A forced "one-time" tutorial op. It could be set up for a single player to "play his/her role." With pauses telling him/her what they are doing right or wrong.

 

When "passed", they could queue for the op.

[DomiSotto]

And this is why I wish for an Operation at level 20 or 30. To TEACH people these "trivial" things.

 

I believe the world bosses are supposed to offer the lower level group Operation experience.

 

I think building your rates into the Achievements is the way to go. If people would start asking for the 3500 or 4000 or 5000 DPS on the dummy achievement, rather than the UL achievement, well, then we'll all be aware of what we need. And, unlike the UL achievement, dummy parses can be obtained solo and you can work on them at no repair cost and no witnesses.

 

Still though, the gap between what's easy and what's required is rather wide. My parse was about 2000, when I am told the 3500 is expected on a dummy. I was not diagnosed with mental retardation, 40% less than what's needed is a steep improvement requirement, so it is frightening how good someone has to be to be a successful DPS in this game.

Edited August 10, 2015 by DomiSotto

[CheaterLL]

I believe the world bosses are supposed to offer the lower level group Operation experience.

 

I think building your rates into the Achievements is the way to go. If people would start asking for the 3500 or 4000 or 5000 DPS on the dummy achievement, rather than the UL achievement, well, then we'll all be aware of what we need. And, unlike the UL achievement, dummy parses can be obtained solo and you can work on them at no repair cost and no witnesses.

 

Still though, the gap between what's easy and what's required is rather wide. My parse was about 2000, when I am told the 3500 is expected on a dummy. I was not diagnosed with mental retardation, 40% less than what's needed is a steep improvement requirement, so it is frightening how good someone has to be to be a successful DPS in this game.

You're right with the WBs, problem is that a world boss is being attempted in one of two ways:

A) A 50/55/60 comes to the planet and asks if anyone wants to be carried

B) A player on level attacks the boss then dies and cries on gen chat "HEEEEELP" "Help with what?" "That enemy here" then decides never to do any WBs because "they OP!!"

 

5000 dummy DPS is overpowered even for UL HM.

Problem with requiring dummy parses is

A) They can't be controlled as easy as achievements

B) They are easy to fake

C) Everyone will be whining about having to use 3rd party software (Bads because "I play the way I want so ****", casuals because "I just wanna play the game" and 1337 because "Unnessecary I'm way too good")

[DomiSotto]

Yes, that is why I am suggesting that your DPS is recorded as an in-game achievement. It already happens in the WZ, where you have a record of hitting that much damage or heals in so many zones. The tracking is present in the game, just record it into the achievements. Certainly will be both practical and helpful. Much more helpful than the "186 gear is sufficient".

 

I am not suggesting that 5000 DPS is needed for ToS SM, I am simply suggesting having it in ye Master DPS Achievements. Really, put 10,000 there too, I am sure someone is going to hit it some day. But put that emphasis on the numbers, make us aware what they should be, what to strive for....

 

Because the last time I've checked, Underlurker was not programed to throw up his hands in resignation and drop dead on the spot just because the whole group was wearing 186+ gear. What impresses him are the numbers.

Edited August 10, 2015 by DomiSotto

[Pietrastor]

I thought you story people don't want to do ops at all.

 

Make up your mind.

 

I thought you elite godly HM raiders didn't care about SMs, make up your minds already

Edited August 10, 2015 by Pietrastor

[power-alex]

I do demand at least a 3k parse to do ToS when I start a pug. I get some jokes and hate in gen chat sometimes, I get whispers asking me how to parse, sometimes after 20 minutes we still don't have a full group and the group disbands. But if we do get a group, it usually a breeze and just what you'd want from an sm ops.

 

My rationality is this: I'd rather get a good group and finish the op or none at all. This is better than getting a bunch of randoms together, stumble to Underlurker, wipe 10 times on it and go home with nothing but a freaking lock to Underlurker.

 

Also this far into expansion I am definitely not looking to progress through content with people that I might never see again. Why would I want to waste time. Let them get into a guild or find friends and learn the ops at their own pace like I did. What I want is to find a bunch of like-minded people and steamroll the op with them in under an hour, get some gear, conquest points and whatnot and farewell on good terms.

Edited August 10, 2015 by power-alex

[Gelious]

It's all RNG, honestly. I always PUG TOS and RAV cause my guild doesnt do regular guild runs. UL can take a few tries, even few changing of members but its doable. For example: once was in Imp raid, where a guy kept saying there wasnt enough DPS from the very beginning of Ops. Wiped couple of times on UL, the guy left, someone switched to another char, new members were invited, and we killed Ul. Was very satisfying.

This week I killed him as both Imp and Pub from 1 pull. In a PUG. So not so nightmarish as you think.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Gelious

[abrownsname]

I havent tried this one yet because my ravagers experience sucked so bad. I refuse to pay for a subscription and then be treated like a second class citizen because I am new. I would rather play older content and become familar with that then try. Hopefully people will be less anxious about thier own reputation and time when I try again.

And guess what, new players are not being carried, they are learning. Do you remember what that feels like anymore?

[Shwarzchild]

I havent tried this one yet because my ravagers experience sucked so bad. I refuse to pay for a subscription and then be treated like a second class citizen because I am new. I would rather play older content and become familar with that then try. Hopefully people will be less anxious about thier own reputation and time when I try again.

And guess what, new players are not being carried, they are learning. Do you remember what that feels like anymore?

 

I apologize that you haven't had a good experience. But, seriously, kudos to you for doing it right. You learn by taking a step back and going to the tier below then working your way up to the most relevant content. That's how I did it, and that's how I learned. I think it's so much better to work your way up than to jump head first into the deep end (in most occasions).

[ATAMIANM]

I apologize that you haven't had a good experience. But, seriously, kudos to you for doing it right. You learn by taking a step back and going to the tier below then working your way up to the most relevant content. That's how I did it, and that's how I learned. I think it's so much better to work your way up than to jump head first into the deep end (in most occasions).

 

I agree. It's what I've been doing. I didn't really start ToS until I felt I had mastered Ravagers. I think it helps if you say upfront you are new and learning. I always did on SM, and now stepping into HM, I definitely say upfront I am new to HM.

 

There will always be a few bad apples who will be impatient and berate you for your inexperience, but the vast majority of SWTOR players I've run with have been very nice and helpful people (until you miss the cross twice in a row on UL!).

[abrownsname]

I apologize that you haven't had a good experience. But, seriously, kudos to you for doing it right. You learn by taking a step back and going to the tier below then working your way up to the most relevant content. That's how I did it, and that's how I learned. I think it's so much better to work your way up than to jump head first into the deep end (in most occasions).

I appreciate what you said. Thank you for that. I know I am not ready for HM DF/DP yet let alone rav or tos hm. I tried rav sm, I wasnt ready. But I come to the forums to reasearch and The judgemental attitude is rampant in the forums. It is frustrating.

We need new players to keep the game alive. If we care about keeping them, we all have a responsibility to at least not make them feel bad about being new. Or say its someone else's problem.

[DomiSotto]

I'd encourage you to try Ravagers though once you have a bit of gear on. It is a lot of fun story-wise, a 4 pc bonus set will make a lot of difference for you and it will be easier than HM DF/DP. I am really sorry someone had to go and spoil your Ravagers' experience. I really hope you will be able to let it go, and play through it. That's the best piece of content BioWARE put out since Corellia imo.

 

I know ToS by now is completely shot for me because of seeing all these good folks fail time after time and the resulting squabbles. I don't even want to try it again, it's too heartbreaking.

[Ubikface]

I havent tried this one yet because my ravagers experience sucked so bad. I refuse to pay for a subscription and then be treated like a second class citizen because I am new. I would rather play older content and become familar with that then try. Hopefully people will be less anxious about thier own reputation and time when I try again.

And guess what, new players are not being carried, they are learning. Do you remember what that feels like anymore?

 

Well, what server are you on? If you're on TRE I'd be happy to put together a sm rav group rep or imp side for you to erase the bad memories.

 

It's how my guild does stuff normally anyhow, new people hit 60, get some 186/190 gear, we give them some 186 relics and hilt/barrels and put together a group consisting of one experienced member in each role who can point out what the new people are doing wrong (and congratulate them on what they do right). If everything goes pear shaped the experienced members can just put the carry pants on and we review how to improve after the ops.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Ubikface

[Ace_Blazer]

Weirdly enough I don't actually have that much trouble pugging Underlurker, but I do have problems when I'm with some of the regulars. Usually it's always one person that consistently has trouble multi-tasking enough to deal with mechanics, no matter if you go through 10 wipes, and one person messing up the cross is all it takes.

 

Yesterday we pugged Underlurker...two people (tank & DPS) had 190 Citadel gear no augments, never did it before, and another was 190/192 but not fully augmented. We got the green cross every single time, and it only took 1 wipe for them to fully understand what was going on. We beat UL after 2 wipes. For the two I mentioned first, it was their first raid since playing at launch, and they later asked if we could do HM because it was apparently too easy.

 

Meanwhile the people I play with regularly have 192/198 fully augmented gear, but they still have trouble telling left from right, and have crap rotations.

 

Some people just can't get it. Gear & achievements only tells part of the story.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Ace_Blazer

[iusCogens]

My advice to new raiders is to first clear HMFPs before trying out Rav and ToS, preferably Tython, Rishi and Blood Hunt. First boss of Blood Hunt has DPS requirement higher than Lurker, complete with coordination and awareness check for tank, DPS and healer. Once you're comfortable with the mechanics of HMFPs you're more than ready to start Rav. Do Rav until you are comfortable with operating in large scale and the mechanics, in all roles if possible. Augment your gears, min-max as best as you can, as Revan said steel yourself and march into ToS.

 

Of course, a group is only as strong as its weakest link. Most pugs can oneshot Rav regardless of composition, but success on Lurker is pure RNG. Sometimes you get groups that kill Lurker on third cross, sometimes you can't even clear Malaphar. Being in a guild definitely helps, but if you are not in one my advice is ignore the bads and simply do your best. There are more nice people in Swtor than terribad 'elitists'; for every guy badmouthing your performance in ops there are ten who will be happy to help you. It's just infortunate that the terribads minority drowns the overall community.

 

I havent tried this one yet because my ravagers experience sucked so bad.

 

I'd be happy to organize a run in Imperial Harbinger. The ops I lead have strict policy of keeping things civil or get out.

Edited August 11, 2015 by iusCogens

[DomiSotto]

I have done Ravagers a few tmes, and never with more than one wipe. In fact the one wipe I remember surprised me (the ship actually blew up!) and the other time co-healer drew aggro on the M&B.

 

On the other hand, the Blood Hunt HM, I had it pop twice, and out of 5 or 6 combined pulls, the boss kept enraging. Not enough DPS..... I think i have seen every other HM FP w/o issues... Well, probably not the Battle of Rishi, iirc it was harder too.

 

Pugs are pugs. Today we could not do TfB because by some reason we went in with 7 people and of course kept denying the obvious till we actually get to the puzzle one man short. Yeah... goofed up, ain't we. Well, next week lucky.

 

See, that kind of stuff I am not against laughing off and forgetting. The UL pulls, on the other hand stop being funny about 8 wipes in.

Edited August 11, 2015 by DomiSotto

[iusCogens]

Pugs are pugs. Today we could not do TfB because by some reason we went in with 7 people and of course kept denying the obvious till we actually get to the puzzle one man short. Yeah... goofed up, ain't we. Well, next week lucky.

 

Lol my guildmate had a funny moment in the pugged TfB run for GF last. Was tanking in his Sin, in Operator he was assigned the color orange. Went in as orange. There was this DPS who kept clicking 'not ready' on ready check, insisting that he had taken the wrong color. Checked buff, nope he was orange. DPS said guildmate was purple. Turns out his Sin was stealthed, and stealthed Sin glows purple. Pugs are pugs.

Edited August 11, 2015 by iusCogens

[Torvai]

I havent tried this one yet because my ravagers experience sucked so bad. I refuse to pay for a subscription and then be treated like a second class citizen because I am new. I would rather play older content and become familar with that then try. Hopefully people will be less anxious about thier own reputation and time when I try again.

And guess what, new players are not being carried, they are learning. Do you remember what that feels like anymore?

 

You know, the problem aren't new players that want to learn and take the advice you give them. The problem are people already playing the game for months/years and still suck but THINK they're the best and ignoring it when you tell them how much they suck with their almighty endurance heavy comm gear and basic attack rotations.

Like back in the day at 55, I'd just leveld my 2nd Sniper to 55, equipped her in 140 Rakata Mods from the Makeb vendor and found a group for DP SM via GF. Equipped in Crapgear, but bolstered in GF I've pulled ~2.8k dps. More than enough for SM Bestia on an individual base. But monsters didn't die fast enough, raidlead kicked me with the reason I'm undergeared, completely ignoring the fact it wasn't him or the other 2 40k dps but me constantly ripping aggro(and therefore doing more dps) and ignoring that I told him what kind of numbers I pulled. Showing he actually had no idea what kind of numbers are required and what they do themselves.

 

Long story short: Most people have no idea what kind of numbers they pull or what is even required for any given content. That's why I like Domis idea of achievements for dps. And then state in the tooltip for the ops what kind of dps is required.

[Vladnar]

Yeah i just cannot work this one out....Underlurker....are people deliberately going to the wrong point on the cross, are they deliberately standing next to the adds aoe and getting killed....this is an on the money encounter or people just need to be on their toes and aren't bothering....i just can't tell.....one pug group i fly through this, next one has NO CHANCE.....tried this on an alt with a pug group they had "4 dps" melee and no matter what they were not getting through this, it may as well have been in NIM mode first time up.

 

I love the game being a good challenge and i don't think this encounter is that hard, you just have to do the right simple steps so im not really convinced where the problem lay

Edited August 11, 2015 by Vladnar

[GrimWulf]

Sometimes pugging ToS is rough but even with a good group the UL can be a pita with the RNG Gods. Dont worry in three months everything will change new level cap,different stats and new influx of people.

[DomiSotto]

Lol my guildmate had a funny moment in the pugged TfB run for GF last. Was tanking in his Sin, in Operator he was assigned the color orange. Went in as orange. There was this DPS who kept clicking 'not ready' on ready check, insisting that he had taken the wrong color. Checked buff, nope he was orange. DPS said guildmate was purple. Turns out his Sin was stealthed, and stealthed Sin glows purple. Pugs are pugs.

 

That's awesome. Thank you for a good laugh

[FerkWork]

Lol my guildmate had a funny moment in the pugged TfB run for GF last. Was tanking in his Sin, in Operator he was assigned the color orange. Went in as orange. There was this DPS who kept clicking 'not ready' on ready check, insisting that he had taken the wrong color. Checked buff, nope he was orange. DPS said guildmate was purple. Turns out his Sin was stealthed, and stealthed Sin glows purple. Pugs are pugs.

 

My GM is super Color Blind and I still sweet a little on TFB and CM when it's color time

[MuzluPasta]

My GM is super Color Blind and I still sweet a little on TFB and CM when it's color time

 

*Sweat

 

Sorry had to. xD

[UberSamoyed]

Pugged a group last week...flew through everything but UL. The funny thing was that even though we explained the cross and even gave everyone markers to make it easy, one guy just didn't get it. During each cross phase, he would run around in a Three Stooges circle behind me (the tank) and outside of the cross. I still chuckle about it. I have no idea what the thought process was there. I'm sure it was hilarious.

[BlueShiftRecall]

Pugged a group last week...flew through everything but UL. The funny thing was that even though we explained the cross and even gave everyone markers to make it easy, one guy just didn't get it. During each cross phase, he would run around in a Three Stooges circle behind me (the tank) and outside of the cross. I still chuckle about it. I have no idea what the thought process was there. I'm sure it was hilarious.

 

Had a recent similar experience in a pug with an 8m SM UL GF. One DPS just could not do the cross. They for whatever reason could not handle having to stand on the left side (UL’s left) during cross, we rearranged frames, we placed markers out, we put marks on players of the same arm cross so he could follow them, the Tanks explained it in the simplest of forms about 3 or 4 times but still every single time the one DPS would either go to the wrong arm or spaz out and just run round around the UL like a headless chicken (hoping he'd just magically be in the right spot at the right time?). They had to be trolling right I mean there is no other way I could explain it? I assumed they wern’t trolling though because if they were you would think they would have goofed around on the 1st or 2nd boss instead before getting this far? Eventually after about 6 tries of never making it past the first cross he was kicked and we brought in a new DPS and we all 1 shot everything else in the op. I can completely understand in PUG's someone taking a few turns to brush up on a mechanic but this guy I don't even think he trying we did everything possible to help/explain/show and like I said I don't even think he was trolling which was scary

Edited August 14, 2015 by BlueShiftRecall