To Master Strike or to not Master Strike?

[Cenla_Saint]

Ok so this is for the pvp bros. combat spec. Should I be using Master Strike in my precision windows? It hits hard but has a long channel and it usually gets me knocked back or stunned. Now my window is closed and I'm missing out on DPS. Maras feel free to pipe in too. Doesn't TST activate the dispatch proc on the set bonus? Seems to be better to use that for the bonus. I ask because I'm kinda stuck in that mid range DPS. I'm trying to find that thing that gets me into the top three in a match at least.

[Aluvi]

The "rotation" for carnage is to use Ravage / MS every other gore/precision window. In practice it doesn't always work out that way, and damage wise you are far better off using Dispatch + Clashing Blast. The nice thing about Ravage is that it's free. Doesn't cost any Rage.

 

Also a side note.. if you line it up perfect, assuming you have about 5% total alacrity + you use berserk, you can do the following combo:

 

Dispatch > Precision > MS > Clashing Blast. You can JUST barely fit it all in with some alacrity. Of course, it screws over your next rotation, but it's a LOT of damage. You have to use Dispatch about 1/3 of a second before you use Precision Strike.

[Giliodor]

I personally never use Master Strike in PvP, nor do I see the point. It's a channeled skill, meaning any CC will interrupt it. Better off using Dispatch + CB, as mentioned above. Edited August 8, 2015 by Giliodor

[cbantug]

I use it selectively. A lot of times I see people turreting who are focused on someone else and I'll take the opportunity to ravage (especially with full resolve). But generally I prioritize the gore VT DB

[Cenla_Saint]

Thanks for all the feedback fellow twinsabers. Yeah I find myself using it a lot and I need to untrain myself. I should limit it with zen at the most or when someone is stunned.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Ok so this is for the pvp bros. combat spec. Should I be using Master Strike in my precision windows? It hits hard but has a long channel and it usually gets me knocked back or stunned. Now my window is closed and I'm missing out on DPS. Maras feel free to pipe in too. Doesn't TST activate the dispatch proc on the set bonus? Seems to be better to use that for the bonus. I ask because I'm kinda stuck in that mid range DPS. I'm trying to find that thing that gets me into the top three in a match at least.

 

I play a Carnage Marauder, my experience in PVPing not as expansive the more die hards, but I do do progression raiding in the HM 60 OPs..

 

If my understanding of PVP as it relates to Marauder rotation and priorities in Warzones is faulty I'm sure someone with greater experience shall make it known. That said -

 

One thing I can tell with absolute certainty is that Ravage should never be used out side of your Gore window (err Precision window). The damage that gets thru past defenses without the window's 100% armor penetration doesn't justify the time of the casting (2.7 seconds - the animation is 3 seconds, but the actually damage stops at 2.7 - although I'm sure you know that from clipping ravage). It comes out to be dps loss overall. Firstly do to the length of the cast (when your using Beserk the alacrity bonus makes the attack cast much faster and thus does not encounter the dps lose due to the length of the cast). Using Ravage outside the window but during Beserk (I think you guys call it Transendence) Would mitigate the time issue, but it would hit far less strongly outside the window. That it costs no rage, in times of low resources, given the lack of other potential options, you could use Ravage outside of window and beserk, but that should be reserved for a last resort kinda situation.

 

Truth is, you may not be getting stunned soley because you are using ravage pur say. in PVP enemies are watching your buff bar more to see when your using your precision window, which Ravage is almost always used during, every other window (optimally speaking), because they know we can do devastating damage if left unchecked during our windows. Yes, the cast time makes you vulnerable, but by not using Ravage in your windows you are inherently gimping your dps. A lot of people think that it is the 'dispatch/ devastating blast' gore window that does the most the damage, but this isn't always so in my experience (although it can be with some bad damage rolls/misses) but by and large, your Ravage/Devistating blast gore window is your greatest damage combo. Analyze your parses and I believe you will find that the damage ceiling of Ravage/Devistating blast window can reach higher damage levels than 'dispatch/ devastating blast' gore window. Again there are variables and bad damage rolls and misses that can make this not the case sometimes, but as I said by and large. They are however both excellent damaging attacks in windows

 

One method to mitigate the times you find yourself getting stunning while doing Ravage is by taking the utili9ty (I have no idea what it's called in Pub jargon) that immobilizes the person you are attacking with Ravage during the length of the cast time. Now, other people could still stun you, and there may be utilities among the other classes that in some cases might allow them to use a stun while being immobilized, I cant say for sure as my knowledge of certain other classes is not expansive, but baring that, its a good thing to take for pvp to help you with that scenario.

 

The concerns however, are really much greater in the larger picture. Marauders over all of all specs have it quite hard in pvp due to class design, FotM classes, the lack of CC breaks and CC abilities. We are woefully lacking in that regard and most Marauders find themselves stunned/rooted/ blinded/ etc an inordinate amount of the time. There are ultilites that can mitigate this to a degree but not enough to make that Marauders are really a good option for PVP. There are exceptions of course and there are some rare birds out there that seem to be able to defy the mold so to speak and perform excellently, but I think you'll find they are the exception to the rule.

 

Marauders damage potentials are quite high. Don't let anyone fool you about that. So high, in fact, it is partially why they are targeted with wild abandon. A gore window is a dangerous thing to anyone, that's understood, and that's why they don't want you any where near them. You might not be able to burst them down in a single gore window full to zero, but if they have already taken some damage, that becomes much more of a real threat to them. They see you coming a mile away with those 2 glowing beacons in your hands and they know you are exceptionally vulnerable to stuns/roots/etc and lack the cc breakers to keep you in the fight after you've used your one CC breaker. Add to this the necessity of being in groups of enemies all around you, your medium armor and your complete lack of heals of any kind (save for Anni maras, but even they have very little of it) and you become an appetizer to them.

 

If your not using your gore windows to their greatest potential

'Ravage/Devistating blast' window and 'dispatch/ devastating blast' gore window, you are ensuring your mid-range dps level, or even worse. Carnage/Combat is centrally based on these 2 types of windows. I'm not saying it's always easy to use them with so many variables one cannot control, but you must strive to use them as often as possible. In addition, and even more importantly, using beserk for any other purpose (by and large, things happen of course and you may need) than the use of a gore window will lower your dps considerably more. If you have to delay 2 GCDs to make it work, you should do so in my opinion. The damage you lose by delaying Beserk /Gore a few GCGs is much less than the damage you lose by not using your window under the effects of Beserk for "Ravage/Devistating blast". Delaying, especially by using massacre (resources allowing), is your best option, force choke can also be a good way to by yourself time to make the stars align.

 

Hope this helps some.

[Cenla_Saint]

Wow thank you for that thorough response. I obviously have a lot of experimenting to do. The nature of PVP is quite fluid so there are many different things that can happen. It seems to me that MS should be de-prioritized in favor of the quicker and more reliable dispatch + clashing blast Inside the precision window. I like the idea earlier to use MS every other window if available.

 

On a better note the datamined info for 4.0 is giving us a new CC breaker in the form of a new OCD and a 6sec CC immunity from a new utility. This will help us out immensely I hope. I've been away from the PVP game for awhile and I am very excited to be back in it. The combat spec is the most fun for our classss IMO and I think I'm getting better. If anyone is on the Harbinger look up my toon from the quote.

[Ardarell_Solo]

To me Master Strike's greatest benefit in PvP is its root component, if you pick the Skillful talent - which I think you always should, cause everything that helps us stay on target is very much needed.

 

That being said, I'd always chose the right moment to use Master Strike depending on wether you need the root. If that aligns with Precision and Zen being available, great! If not, still go for the root, if that helps you stay on target and get some dps on it at the same time.

 

Even if your opponent breaks out of the channel early, you will pretty much always get the first two ticks in, which is good dps already - AND you may have gotten him to blow his stunbreaker for it, so you may go Stasis and big hitter on him afterwards...

[jauvtus]

To me Master Strike's greatest benefit in PvP is its root component, if you pick the Skillful talent - which I think you always should, cause everything that helps us stay on target is very much needed.

 

That being said, I'd always chose the right moment to use Master Strike depending on wether you need the root. If that aligns with Precision and Zen being available, great! If not, still go for the root, if that helps you stay on target and get some dps on it at the same time.

 

Even if your opponent breaks out of the channel early, you will pretty much always get the first two ticks in, which is good dps already - AND you may have gotten him to blow his stunbreaker for it, so you may go Stasis and big hitter on him afterwards...

 

I dont have any roots in my build but i dont have problems staying on target. I rely on speed:

Skillful: Cloak of Carnage/Jedi Enforcer, Inexorable/Adamant, Brazen/Stoic

Masterful: Defensive Roll, Phantom/Force Fade

Heroic: Unbound/Fleetfooted, Blood Ward/Zealous Ward

This gives me a lot of mobilty, shorter CC breaker and quite good survivability (ofc no Berserk/Zen, but currently not worth it as Ann/Watchman in pvp)

[AcaciaDragon]

Ok so this is for the pvp bros. combat spec. Should I be using Master Strike in my precision windows? It hits hard but has a long channel and it usually gets me knocked back or stunned. Now my window is closed and I'm missing out on DPS. Maras feel free to pipe in too. Doesn't TST activate the dispatch proc on the set bonus? Seems to be better to use that for the bonus. I ask because I'm kinda stuck in that mid range DPS. I'm trying to find that thing that gets me into the top three in a match at least.

 

Its largely not worth it. Its best to pop Precision, Zen, then MS so as to shorten Ravages channel so you can get all 3 ticks before they move away from you. Leaving there only option to stop you to stun. For the most part if both Zen and Precision are up and you have a target that may not move, and your full on Resolve(dont have to be though), you should use it. Else, we have tons of other abiltiies that do the damage better.

[vantgarde]

Hello guys,

 

I'll give you my two sents as I do main sentinel exclusively in PVP environnement.

 

While it might be true that you grimped your DPS if you are not using your MS with precision, it is NOT important.

 

In PVE you are looking for DPS. Meaning high sustain damage per second. However with PVP you want reliable high SPIKE of DPS = BURST. You can do 400 DPS and still do your job. As long as you are able to pull off more than 20 to 30k Damage in 1 GCD. Having those spikes as often as possible is where skill lies in PVP, which will ultimately increase your DPS, as a consequence.

 

You want to kill people reliably not having a big number to show off in the end. This is why we are playing Carnage or Fury as main spec for PVP.

 

The point is Master strike is NOT a reliable skill in PVP environnement. Even with the root on it everyone can slip out of your MS. (Force speed, hydrolic override, stuns, bump, dodge, teleport, vanish, someone else interfering...)

 

Dispatch and Blast are reliable abilities because they are instant, so they should be prioratize in relation to MS. Furthermore under ZEN you can fit into pecision another ability like Masacre (Rep name is not coming back to my mind) and spam it for 1 focus under Zen which ultimately does way more burst than the MS + blast.

 

In conclusion in PVE you probably want to MS with precision. In PVP you just do NOT. MS is much more valuable as bait to make a sorcerer speed. then you jump on him an use the real weapon of the spec Blast + Dispatch. It's coming faster, it is reliable, you can be bump and still pull it off. It is an overall better more flexible combination, period.

[jauvtus]

Hello guys,

 

I'll give you my two sents as I do main sentinel exclusively in PVP environnement.

 

While it might be true that you grimped your DPS if you are not using your MS with precision, it is NOT important.

 

In PVE you are looking for DPS. Meaning high sustain damage per second. However with PVP you want reliable high SPIKE of DPS = BURST. You can do 400 DPS and still do your job. As long as you are able to pull off more than 20 to 30k Damage in 1 GCD. Having those spikes as often as possible is where skill lies in PVP, which will ultimately increase your DPS, as a consequence.

 

You want to kill people reliably not having a big number to show off in the end. This is why we are playing Carnage or Fury as main spec for PVP.

 

The point is Master strike is NOT a reliable skill in PVP environnement. Even with the root on it everyone can slip out of your MS. (Force speed, hydrolic override, stuns, bump, dodge, teleport, vanish, someone else interfering...)

 

Dispatch and Blast are reliable abilities because they are instant, so they should be prioratize in relation to MS. Furthermore under ZEN you can fit into pecision another ability like Masacre (Rep name is not coming back to my mind) and spam it for 1 focus under Zen which ultimately does way more burst than the MS + blast.

 

In conclusion in PVE you probably want to MS with precision. In PVP you just do NOT. MS is much more valuable as bait to make a sorcerer speed. then you jump on him an use the real weapon of the spec Blast + Dispatch. It's coming faster, it is reliable, you can be bump and still pull it off. It is an overall better more flexible combination, period.

 

Current MS is utter ****, its only use is to scare noobs or activate long-time learned reflexes in elder pvpers. No sense giving much attention to the ability, its damage is laughable. They should increase CD and dmg by 100%, then we can talk about MS.

 

P.S.: rep Massacre is Blade Rush

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Given your greater experience, I would move to strike my comments on this issue with every faith in your (and the others) correctness as relates to PVP. My experience with PVP is dwarfed compared to PVE. Setting the record straight will be a great boon to those seeking such information. I formally stand corrected =].

[Saikochoro]

I don't think master strike does enough damage to risk using it on a precision window. It will be interrupted somehow and even if it isn't you are better off spamming blade rush in the precision window. Save precision for clashing blast + dispatch.

[Torvai]

I don't think master strike does enough damage to risk using it on a precision window. It will be interrupted somehow and even if it isn't you are better off spamming blade rush in the precision window. Save precision for clashing blast + dispatch.

 

Just recently started PvP'ing on my mara. So it's it's basically vicious throw, gore, blast, massacre? And ravage as a filler in between?

How do you use berserk then?

[SirMannii]

I personally never use Master Strike in PvP, nor do I see the point. It's a channeled skill, meaning any CC will interrupt it. Better off using Dispatch + CB, as mentioned above.

 

Are you for real bruh? Of course you should use master strike. It's a root while channeling, if they want to waste a cc then let them do that bruh.

[AcaciaDragon]

Just recently started PvP'ing on my mara. So it's it's basically vicious throw, gore, blast, massacre? And ravage as a filler in between?

How do you use berserk then?

 

Double Saber throw, Pop Berserk, then gore, then DB, the Vicious Throw. Berserk ensures the CD is lower so that you can use DB and Gore again.

[AcaciaDragon]

Are you for real bruh? Of course you should use master strike. It's a root while channeling, if they want to waste a cc then let them do that bruh.

 

Nothing announces STUN ME PLEASE I REALLY LIKE IT O YEAH BABY, YEAH! Like the loud slashing and hitting of Ravage/Master Strike. In the 2.2 seconds you use to cast it(if you do it outside berserk you are really wasting your potential) You could have popped Gore, DB, and Vicious Throw all withing the same timeframe. For 2-3X the damage, you can still move, of and the longer CD of Ravage means you can do this twice by the time you can do Ravage again. You arent rooted in place and can keep moving, Both these abilities are slightly ranged too.

 

If you use the excuse that they will just stun you when they see Gore pop up, think about this. Setup Gore on a macro. I have it setup to be tied in with DB, the CD of both are very close so they are both coming off CD around the same time, the macro hits it so fast the animation for Gore never plays. Only the better players looking for that Gore icon will be able to react quick enough. Only use Ravage/MS when these are on CD.

 

With the amount of root and snare breaks and resists and the way it works in resolve now...your lucky if the root sticks 50% of the time. You dont need the root if you are popping it on Berserk, they have to speed away, charge away, or stun/knock you away in order to stop it, they wont be able to move away and react by the time its done casting. The Utility is quite pointless.

[Giliodor]

Are you for real bruh? Of course you should use master strike. It's a root while channeling, if they want to waste a cc then let them do that bruh.

 

Can't tell if sarcasm, but... Why would you trait the root when there are far more useful things you can trait... I don't have any issues in PvP without using MS, so I won't start using it now.

[Saikochoro]

Just recently started PvP'ing on my mara. So it's it's basically vicious throw, gore, blast, massacre? And ravage as a filler in between?

How do you use berserk then?

 

Honestly when I am playing carnage I don't use berserk all that often. I will use it situationally. I don't take the relentless utility when I play carnage so I mainly use fury for predation. You can actually use predation more often when its on the fury system, but at the expense of berserk. Most of the time I find predation to be more valuable than berserk in carnage. If I really need to get someone down quick I will use it and spam massacre after the burst combo of gore + DB + VT. Put vicious throw in the gore window.

 

I use ravage as a control move mostly, but its a decent filler for being free.

[Saikochoro]

Nothing announces STUN ME PLEASE I REALLY LIKE IT O YEAH BABY, YEAH! Like the loud slashing and hitting of Ravage/Master Strike. In the 2.2 seconds you use to cast it(if you do it outside berserk you are really wasting your potential) You could have popped Gore, DB, and Vicious Throw all withing the same timeframe. For 2-3X the damage, you can still move, of and the longer CD of Ravage means you can do this twice by the time you can do Ravage again. You arent rooted in place and can keep moving, Both these abilities are slightly ranged too.

 

If you use the excuse that they will just stun you when they see Gore pop up, think about this. Setup Gore on a macro. I have it setup to be tied in with DB, the CD of both are very close so they are both coming off CD around the same time, the macro hits it so fast the animation for Gore never plays. Only the better players looking for that Gore icon will be able to react quick enough. Only use Ravage/MS when these are on CD.

 

With the amount of root and snare breaks and resists and the way it works in resolve now...your lucky if the root sticks 50% of the time. You dont need the root if you are popping it on Berserk, they have to speed away, charge away, or stun/knock you away in order to stop it, they wont be able to move away and react by the time its done casting. The Utility is quite pointless.

 

 

I'm fairly certain macros are against the TOS so I wouldn't encourage their use. Gore doesn't have much of an animation anyways since it is not an attack anymore, but rather a buff. It also doesn't cause a global so you can go right into DB anyway without a macro.

 

Ravage will get someone to pop a breaker/dcd/cc pretty much every time. For that alone it is worth using. If they cc me during ravage, then they won't be able to cc me during gore. If they use their dcd during ravage, then they won't have it during gore. If they use force speed to get out of ravage root, then they can't run away from me during gore. Ravage with the root has many useful applications (plus its free)....just don't use it during gore.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Saikochoro

[AcaciaDragon]

I'm fairly certain macros are against the TOS so I wouldn't encourage their use. Gore doesn't have much of an animation anyways since it is not an attack anymore, but rather a buff. It also doesn't cause a global so you can go right into DB anyway without a macro.

 

Ravage will get someone to pop a breaker/dcd/cc pretty much every time. For that alone it is worth using. If they cc me during ravage, then they won't be able to cc me during gore. If they use their dcd during ravage, then they won't have it during gore. If they use force speed to get out of ravage root, then they can't run away from me during gore. Ravage with the root has many useful applications (plus its free)....just don't use it during gore.

 

Razer teamed up with BW to create a Mouse and keyboard combo that had Macro capabilities shortly after launch

 

http://www.razerzone.com/licensed-and-team-peripherals/star-wars-the-old-republic-gaming-keyboard/

 

I see your points on goading a stun, but your resolve bar isnt full after the first stun, and most classes have 2. You still run the risk of getting stunned during your Gore window. But I suppose its better than nothing

 

Ravage requires you to be stationary to initiate it(I hate this, I am always moving around, and it hurts me to stay still so I can activate it). Requires you to be stationary during. PvP is about movement and dps and the balance between the two. Its just hard for me to say Ravage is an ability I use when the only benefit it grants me is a Root(and selfroot)/Stun Taunt.

 

I almost wish instead it was a 3 pronged attack where we triggered each hit, but each his is on the GCD, the damage building with each hit, but a timer is set for each hit to be taken within. Any other ability used stops the sequence. Benefits for finishing each sequence can vary based on the spec. Still allows for it to be used as a Stun taunt, but allows us to stay moble, and doesnt give a melee class a melee range channel.