Valkorion and the Emperor's Hand

[Leklor]

So...

A thought came to me: All the way up to SoR, the Emperor's Hand has been completely devoted to Vitiate.

But with KOTFE and the all but confirmed revelation that Valkorion IS Vitiate and has abandonned the Empire, will the Hand still serve him and more importantly: Will Valkorion still want to use the Hand when he controls an entire Empire, stronger than the Sith Empire and wields a power of unknown level with the Eternal Throne.

 

So I imagine something: What if the Hand ended up playing a pivotal role in Valkorion's defeat? Either by being forced into it by the player or by willingly turning against him to get revenge for him abandonning them? Option 2 is unlikely, of course, unless Valk completly lets go of the control he has over them and, when freed, they begin to feel deep resentment towards their former master for throwing them away in favor of Arcann and the Eternal Empire in general.

 

Any thoughts on that?

Edited August 7, 2015 by Leklor

[Frenesi]

I really doubt the Vitiate and Valkorion are one and the same. It's lame enough to have 2 emperors at the same time.

 

Also, we have never seen Valkorion do anything (at least, yet). For all we know, his power comes from military strength of his empire, and from personal cunning. As far as powers go, Vitiate is in completely different league

[Leklor]

I really doubt the Vitiate and Valkorion are one and the same. It's lame enough to have 2 emperors at the same time.

 

Also, we have never seen Valkorion do anything (at least, yet). For all we know, his power comes from military strength of his empire, and from personal cunning. As far as powers go, Vitiate is in completely different league

 

 

Well, datamined lines from KOTFE seem to confirm he indeed IS Vitiate in some form. Or more precisely: Valkorion is Vitiate and not the other way around.

 

In theses lines, Darth Marr clearly says "A new name, a new face, these are not enough to hide from us." followed by the female Sith Inquisitor saying "The Sith Emperor... Your presence is unmistakable." then she says "Do these people have any idea who you really are? The kinds of thing you're capable of?"

Then Marr again: "Your constant silence across our history. This was your distraction?" and Valk answers "This was my FOCUS!"

 

Pretty damning evidence.

 

Edited August 7, 2015 by Leklor

[Darkelefantos]

Well, datamined lines from KOTFE seem to confirm he indeed IS Vitiate in some form. Or more precisely: Valkorion is Vitiate and not the other way around.

 

In theses lines, Darth Marr clearly says "A new name, a new face, these are not enough to hide from us." followed by the female Sith Inquisitor saying "The Sith Emperor... Your presence is unmistakable." then she says "Do these people have any idea who you really are? The kinds of thing you're capable of?"

Then Marr again: "Your constant silence across our history. This was your distraction?" and Valk answers "This was my FOCUS!"

 

Pretty damning evidence.

You might wanna spoiler tag this. Even in the spoiler forum it's not great to spoil things that aren't released yet.

[Leklor]

Done, sorry for not doing it immediately.

[MightyFiredemon]

*Spoiler*

 

I've seen that video as well(though I wasn't paying attention to the title) but yeah Valkorian pretty much confirms that he is Vitiate and a Voice or some other possessed person. Especially as he talks about everything else he did during the Knight story, Shadow of Revan, and Ziost was simply a means to an end. Which seems to imply that he never truly wanted to consume the galaxy but simply eliminate the Empire and Republic using that method. Valkorian literally tells our character that in all his centuries only we have somehow warranted his full personal attention.

[Darth_Wicked]

Call me a cynic but for the most part, I don't expect any of this to be mentioned ever again, come KotFE. I really don't.

 

*Spoiler*

 

I've seen that video as well(though I wasn't paying attention to the title) but yeah Valkorian pretty much confirms that he is Vitiate and a Voice or some other possessed person. Especially as he talks about everything else he did during the Knight story, Shadow of Revan, and Ziost was simply a means to an end. Which seems to imply that he never truly wanted to consume the galaxy but simply eliminate the Empire and Republic using that method. Valkorian literally tells our character that in all his centuries only we have somehow warranted his full personal attention.

 

Judging from his actions throughout the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior class stories, he could have fooled me. NOT only he wanted to consume all life in the entire galaxy, but also, further down the road, all life in the universe. He also went to great lenghts to try and achieve the former.

 

Regardless, at the end of the day, it comes down to retconning really. No more, no less.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Leklor]

Call me a cynic but for the most part, I don't expect any of this to be mentioned ever again, come KotFE. I really don't.

 

 

 

Judging from his actions throughout the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior class stories, he could have fooled me. NOT only he wanted to consume all life in the entire galaxy, but also, further down the road, all life in the universe. He also went to great lenghts to try and achieve the former.

 

Regardless, at the end of the day, it comes down to retconning really. No more, no less.

 

The best way to confirm wether or not it is a retcon would be to ask Drew Karpyshyn directly. He wrote the JK story but not Ziost or KOTFE. He would therefore know if they deviated from what he had intended.

Because I'm sure the reason the Emperor munched Ziost will be explained in KOTFE but IF they retconned his motive since Vanilla, then asking the writer who first worked on him is the best way.

[Darth_Wicked]

The best way to confirm wether or not it is a retcon would be to ask Drew Karpyshyn directly. He wrote the JK story but not Ziost or KOTFE. He would therefore know if they deviated from what he had intended.

Because I'm sure the reason the Emperor munched Ziost will be explained in KOTFE but IF they retconned his motive since Vanilla, then asking the writer who first worked on him is the best way.

 

I believe Hall Hood was the Lead Writer for the Jedi Knight story, not Karpyshyn, though the latter contributed to the story as well. Also, Karpyshyn wrote in the Revan novel that the Emperor's original body was that of a Pure Blood; in a recent Cantina event however, one developer -- Jesse Sky, I believe -- questioned if that was truly the case. First evidence of a retcon?

 

On another note, Hall Hood still works at Bioware Austin. Dunno how he feels about it.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Leklor]

I believe Hall Hood was the Lead Writer for the Jedi Knight story, not Karpyshyn, though the latter contributed to the story as well. Also, Karpyshyn wrote in the Revan novel that the Emperor's original body was that of a Pure Blood; in a recent Cantina event however, one developer -- Jesse Sky, I believe -- questioned if that was truly the case. First evidence of a retcon?

 

On another note, Hall Hood still works at Bioware Austin. Dunno how he feels about it.

 

You may be right, I might have misinterpreted the notes about TOR on his site.

Anyway, it would indeed be interesting to know wether the Sith Pureblood original body is an actual retcon or not.

After all, I believe the Tenebrae story about Nathema could be a cover-up. (Like, Valkorion was already alive at this point and Nathema was a test of his power. There are, after all, no survivors.)

 

I also thought of something: What if Vitiate is the progenitor of Valkorion's line and just takes posession of his heirs after a certain age? Meaning after a time, Valkorion's body would be discarded and Arcann would become the new host? It contradicts what we know of Vitiate's power, I know, but there was never hard evidence of his limits so they could just handwave it.

 

Too many possibilities.

[Darth_Wicked]

You may be right, I might have misinterpreted the notes about TOR on his site.

Anyway, it would indeed be interesting to know wether the Sith Pureblood original body is an actual retcon or not.

After all, I believe the Tenebrae story about Nathema could be a cover-up. (Like, Valkorion was already alive at this point and Nathema was a test of his power. There are, after all, no survivors.)

 

I haven't read the Revan novel in a while now, but as far as I can remember, Lord Scourge claims that the Emperor's body roughtly resembles that of a Pure Blood. Also, at that point in time, the Voice of the Emperor didn't exist yet, seeing this position was presumably created ONLY after Revan came close enough to strike down the Emperor.

 

In addition to the above, the Emperor's Hand, in a mail to the Sith Warrior, following the showdown between the Voice and the Jedi Knight, claims that the Emperor's body has been moved -- presumably the Pure Blood one.

 

In other words, prior to that comment by Jesse Sky, there was never a reason to doubt that said body was his original one. Lastly, there's this, courtesy of Karpyshyn:

Question: comes only from Nyriss, 3rdhand. Did you intend for Vitiate to be originally a pureblood, or is that Scourge's guess?

 

DK: the emperor was a pureblood, but after so many centuries of life he has little in common with ordinary Sith

 

- - - -

I also thought of something: What if Vitiate is the progenitor of Valkorion's line and just takes posession of his heirs after a certain age? Meaning after a time, Valkorion's body would be discarded and Arcann would become the new host? It contradicts what we know of Vitiate's power, I know, but there was never hard evidence of his limits so they could just handwave it.

 

Too many possibilities.

 

There was hard evidence of his limits and limitations -- not to mention weaknesses -- namely during the Vanilla release.

 

For example:

 

 

• When the Emperor moved onto the Nightmare Lands on Voss, his Voice was trapped, courtesy of Sel-Makor. As a result, the Hand was forced to send the NEW Emperor's Wrath there, in order to release him. In other words, logic dictates he couldn't have multiple host-bodies at any given time, while presumably channeling his influence or command from his TRUE body.

• Notwithstanding his immensurable power, in order to kick-start his ritual to consume all life in the galaxy, enormous loss of life is necessary, on a planetary scale. One only needs to remember what his servants aimed to do on Belsavis or Corellia.

• Revan, throughout the centuries, managed to influence the Emperor over time, which is what made the Treaty of Coruscant possible to begin with.

• The Emperor, through his Voice -- this time housing a Voss Mystic -- goes to Voss to achieve "Ultimate Victory". The words are enigmatic but then again, it shows he still had, at that point in time, quite a few things to learn or grasp.

• Though he can take over his Children from a distance, it is clear he can't channel through them his immense power. Then again, Kira supposedly fled from the Academy on Korriban before her indoctrination was complete.

• He could only have his Voice -- his essence -- released from a host-body once the latter physically perished, NOT before. He claims this is an oversight he would not repeat in the future.

 

^^ It is likely there are more but then again, the Vanilla release does paint a clear picture of his limits, limitations and weaknesses.

 

IMO though, they went completely overboard with Ziost, especially in a time where he was -- presumably -- still weakened, seeing Revan failed to use the device inside the Temple of Sacrifice.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[kraidy]

Personally, I always thought the reason the Emperor needed to be released was because of Sel keeping him locked in, not because he could only control one body. Edited August 7, 2015 by kraidy

[BrianDavion]

one thing to keep in mind is what we know of the empror is inferances others have made, and things he, or agents of his have said. but it's possiable 4.0 rolls in and vitiate's like "ohh yeah all that stuff was me play acting, it was actually part of a long term plan to bring about whats happening now" might come off as a bit odd but reduculas Xantoes Gambits is a part and parcel of the setting..

 

 

I do belvie KOTFE represents a shift in the original direction my over all hunch is BW wants to shift to more of a rebellion era/ sequal trilogy era, feel as opposed to a TCW feel

Edited August 8, 2015 by BrianDavion

[NyalDeus]

My guess as to what the hell is going on:

Vitiate is trying to kill the galaxy to become invincible, but the JK plot was an intentional false attempt.

It likely takes more than a few planets worth of people bitting it to power V up that much, doubly so as most of the planets he was using (Belsavis and Voss) were comparatively sparsely populated. I'd say it was meant to draw out and kill his "prophesied slayer" as well as buffing himself in the process. The JK destroying the Voice was not in the script.

SOR and Ziost were V reviving and rebuffing himself back to acceptable levels of strength.

As for the Zakuul empire? We already know from Thexan's interlude that his servants are fanatically loyal to him, and I would assume, likely die for him if requested. The Sith empire was made to exhaust and cripple the republic, but not to successfully conquer it, the Zakuul empire was to then finish both sides, conquer the entire galaxy, and then, when every planet is part of the empire, commit mass suicide.

After all what would wound the Force more, the deaths of a few planets, or a galactic extinction event.

[Cordarn]

My guess as to what the hell is going on:

The Sith empire was made to exhaust and cripple the republic, but not to successfully conquer it,

 

Again, the Empire would have conquered the Republic were it not for revan influencing the Emperor. It makes absolutely no sense to throw away easily obliterating the Republic because you wanted to build another empire to do it. And we both know that Vitiate isn't the illogical type. Fanatical and insane, yes; but not illogical.

[Pt_k]

Again, the Empire would have conquered the Republic were it not for revan influencing the Emperor. It makes absolutely no sense to throw away easily obliterating the Republic because you wanted to build another empire to do it. And we both know that Vitiate isn't the illogical type. Fanatical and insane, yes; but not illogical.

 

Honestly, I still think he was trying to build another empire that could be as successful as the one he already created with Zakuul. He had a plan in mind for the republic and empire HOWEVER it wouldn't matter if the republic stopped the empire or the empire crushed the republic. The outcome of both actions would still mean his on track with his plan. The empire was his failure and now that he sees this, its time for him to clear the chess board and "start" somewhere else again. A man who loses still ends up winning and he made sure no matter the outcome of the galactic war, it wouldn't affect his plans.

 

 

The only thing I really don't understand, does he really seek to take over the galaxy and destroy all of life? Or he trying to build an eternal empire that would last through all of existence and NEVER be forgotten?

[Leklor]

Honestly, I still think he was trying to build another empire that could be as successful as the one he already created with Zakuul. He had a plan in mind for the republic and empire HOWEVER it wouldn't matter if the republic stopped the empire or the empire crushed the republic. The outcome of both actions would still mean his on track with his plan. The empire was his failure and now that he sees this, its time for him to clear the chess board and "start" somewhere else again. A man who loses still ends up winning and he made sure no matter the outcome of the galactic war, it wouldn't affect his plans.

 

 

The only thing I really don't understand, does he really seek to take over the galaxy and destroy all of life? Or he trying to build an eternal empire that would last through all of existence and NEVER be forgotten?

Maybe the intention with the Sith Empire was indeed to conquer the Republic... and then make it a vassal state to the Eternal (Zakuul) Empire with a violent series of strikes similar to the "Sacrifice" trailer but this, only a Sith Empire weakened by a hard-earned victory would stand against them and be defeated quickly.

[Costello]

Call me a cynic but for the most part, I don't expect any of this to be mentioned ever again, come KotFE. I really don't.

 

 

 

Judging from his actions throughout the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior class stories, he could have fooled me. NOT only he wanted to consume all life in the entire galaxy, but also, further down the road, all life in the universe. He also went to great lenghts to try and achieve the former.

 

Regardless, at the end of the day, it comes down to retconning really. No more, no less.

 

This.

 

The empire turned against him cause he wanted to destroy all life in the galaxy.

 

The Jedi Knight story leaves no doubt as to his overall goal.

 

He spent 1000 years as Emperor of the Sith, this was not a side project while his focus was on another Empire entirely.

 

Jedi vs Sith is a major theme of Star Wars and intrinsic to the lore. Yet this would have it that the Sith Emperor was never that bothered about the Jedi and his focus was on a 3rd faction all together.

[typenine]

Judging from his actions throughout the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior class stories, he could have fooled me. NOT only he wanted to consume all life in the entire galaxy, but also, further down the road, all life in the universe. He also went to great lenghts to try and achieve the former.

 

Regardless, at the end of the day, it comes down to retconning really. No more, no less.

 

Vitiate Codex

 

"A past shrouded in secrets. A future clouded in uncertainty. It was believed that the once-and-former Sith Emperor sought to consume all life in the galaxy to grant him the dark side power required to attain immortality....but is that still the case? was it ever? did he actually have another plan all along?'

 

The Emperor trying to consume all life in the galaxy seemed iffy to me in the first place.

I personally never quite believed it

 

 

 

He spent 1000 years as Emperor of the Sith, this was not a side project while his focus was on another Empire entirely.

 

 

He often disappeared for very long times

so he could have built another Empire

Edited August 8, 2015 by typenine

[Darth_Wicked]

The Emperor trying to consume all life in the galaxy seemed iffy to me in the first place.

I personally never quite believed it

 

That codex entry only goes to show that the person who wrote it never played the Jedi Knight and Sith Warrior stories to begin with. Assuming you played them with a modicum of attention, it is crystal clear that the Emperor seeks to consume all life in the galaxy. There is no way around it.

 

That ONLY didn't happen at the time because the Jedi Knight managed to delay / stop his ritual at great expense, over and over again, on planets such as Belsavis, Voss or Corellia.

 

It is what the game showed, whether you believe it or not.

 

He often disappeared for very long times

so he could have built another Empire

 

Why would he build another Empire, supposed to endure throughout the ages, if his ultimate goal was to consume all life in the galaxy and eventually the universe? What would he gain by that?

 

Again, for reference, people aren't making this stuff up. These are his own words, during the Jedi Knight story, and as implied during the Sith Warrior story -- not to mention beyond.

 

 

 

 

Regardless, at the end of the day, it is pretty much a retcon meant to take the story in another direction, with little to no care whatsoever in regards to what came before. New players won't care either way and old ones, sooner or later, will have to contend with the way things are.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Darkelefantos]

Call me a cynic but for the most part, I don't expect any of this to be mentioned ever again, come KotFE. I really don't.

But Servant 1 and Servant 2 are the best characters in the game. Surely, there's no way BioWare drops them.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Darkelefantos

[Darth_Wicked]

But Servant 1 and Servant 2 are the best characters in the game. Surely, there's no way BioWare drops them.

 

Did I ever tell you that, once upon a time...

Ziost would feature a scene with all twelve servants of the Hand? Gnost-Dural would be there too apparently, though the specifics are hard to determine.

 

That aside, good one.

[Darkelefantos]

Did I ever tell you that, once upon a time...

Ziost would feature a scene with all twelve servants of the Hand? Gnost-Dural would be there too apparently, though the specifics are hard to determine.

 

That aside, good one.

Oh well I guess they got eaten off-screen then in that area you explore in that one instanced Daily Quest. RIP.

 

But hey, at least this "new" Emperor also has his own personalised Darth Vader copy. Because no great Dark Lord is complete without one.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Darkelefantos

[Darth_Wicked]

Oh well I guess they got eaten off-screen then in that area you explore in that one instanced Daily Quest. RIP.

 

But hey, at least this "new" Emperor also has his own personalised Darth Vader copy. Because no great Dark Lord is complete without one.

 

Also, once upon a time...

The Hand had a fortress on Ziost, probably the very same one Servant One mentions during the "Vowrawn and the Wrath" mission on Rishi. Maybe they played a hand -- pun intended -- in the utter devouring of the planet by the Emperor, behind-the-scenes?

 

* shrugs *

 

[Darkelefantos]

But now that you've mentioned "all 12 servants", wouldn't it be funny if Valkorion had 6 fingers on every hand? Edited August 8, 2015 by Darkelefantos