One size fits all Outlander story for KotFE

[JDiablos]

Let me start off by saying I'm really looking forward to the new expansion, I've even scheduled my final vacation of the year around a week of playing it on release. I'm not worried about companions. In fact if they took all the old ones away I'd have faith in the story going forward to be good enough that I wouldn't miss them. Nor am I overly concerned about the direction of the story or them bringing the current storyline of Vitiate to conclusion (again, faith).

 

The thing that I feel will be the most jarring is the global story idea. I'll try to explain what I mean. Over the past couple of expansions there have been points where I felt my Character was out of his element or not really being true to himself. For instance,

 

Makeb: I did Makeb with all 8 classes, Empire side I felt most at home story wise doing it as Wrath. The story made sense as he led the team on the ground and made command decisions that affected the entire World. Inquisitor and Agent I was also fine with but I just felt strange on my Bounty Hunter. It was odd that these high ranking imperials and Sith would defer to a bounty hunter, almost as odd as Darth Marr choosing him for the task in the first place over other (probably better suited) candidates to lead this incursion of great importance.

 

I felt similar with the Smuggler, I just wasn't sure why the President hand picked him out of everyone to bring this new faction into the fold. He's certainly no diplomat. For Republic side I actually felt most comfortable as a Havoc Trooper, the missions just seemed to suit him very well. The Jedi classes were both more meh.

 

But Makeb by itself wasn't that bad, it wasn't until SoR that I truly had some real horrible story moments for my hero's.

 

The first one, and by far the most disconcerting was when I took my Wrath of the Emperor to Rishi (I do everything on my wrath first). As anyone knows who did Rishi it's very campy in the beginning. And this didn't fit the Wrath at all. The pirate stuff was too silly for my normally ominous Wrath, and then tracking down Kai Zykken was the worst. I'm pretty sure one of those pirates told me to piss off when I asked him a question and I didn't even get to choke him to death. The conversation with Zykken is even worse. After that it gets better, and the rest of the story fits. Hunting down Revan has an air of hunting down an equal for the wrath, or even possible a better. A truly worthy adversary that the Wrath hungers to face in combat. Most of the conversation points after the beginning of Rishi are worthy ones, and I enjoyed the remainder of the story. Even got a shot out from the big guy himself at the end (how humbling).

 

Then I do it on my smuggler and almost the exact opposite is true. Rishi was the only part of the game that made sense. The idea of my smuggler personally forcing his way onto Korriban and destroying waves of Sith seemed unreal, followed by some more semi-unbelievable stuff until finally I got to Rishi where the pirate stuff and campy fun was right in the Smuggler's wheelhouse. Eventually though it was back to my smuggler rubbing elbows with Marr and Shan trying to plot the fate of the galaxy. Not completely far fetched I know depending on how you roleplay your character but still the non force users felt a bit odd for me throughout SoR.

 

So now we get to KotFE. My concern is that it will be difficult for a one size fits all story to properly encompass all the 8 classes. I'm probably an elitist but 4 of the classes just don't seem like world savers to me right out of the gate due to their lack of ability to use the force. Right now I'm hoping to play through the Sith Warrior and Jedi Knight first. With the seriousness of a shattered Republic and Empire and looming threat I imagine the story will have enough gravity that I won't feel as silly as I did on my Wrath during Rishi. After that I'll try my agent and smuggler, inquisitor and counselor, and maybe even get to my trooper and BH. Maybe with the chaos surrounding everything it won't seem silly to me that someone like my devil may care Smuggler or my credit inspired only BH is the pivot around which the fate of the galaxy rests...

 

we'll see. I do worry though, even as I'm super excited to finally receive story content once again. What do you guys think would alleviate some of these problems?

 

Maybe the three conversation options varying wildly from class to class to represent the differences between them.

Or even a bigger wheel of conversation options (say 5).

There are probably a multitude of ways to combat the feeling of out of placeness I felt at various times, and perhaps Bioware has even thought of them already. (again, I have faith)

[Canareth]

I agree. It's impossible to balance Smuggler with Darth Nox. Darth Nox + Khem Val + pet war droid burning Tython? Oh yeah, Tulak Hord time. Smuggler on frontal assault on Korriban? As noted...

 

This was inherent the moment they decided to make the Force stories as epic as they did. They're all one-man armies who kill examples of the other four as yard trash. The Wrath stomps on several sets of pirates and SpecOps as comical annoyances. The Inquisitor just fries people who tick them off. The Knight's entire "hat" is doing legendary things solo including surpassing people like Scourge and Revan.They're all too powerful for mere mortals to matter.

[Sillon]

First off let me say that I agree with just about everything the OP said. I main my sorc and while I enjoyed Makeb, the start of Rishi was very jarring. It picked up as we went along, but the beginning was not a great fit. I would have done anything for a *zap this person for sassing me* choice and it felt way too campy for a member of the Dark Council. I haven't leveled a warrior yet (it's next on my to-do list) but I imagine that I'll have the same feeling there.

 

That's the challenge with these single story lines. They need to be able to be done by all classes, so we get some areas that feel right for the force users and some areas that feel right for the smugglers/BHs. That's the one concern that I have with this idea of a single story line. You can't make a one-size fits all solution that feels right for everyone. By eliminating the organization and the structure of our factions, they are trying to force our force-users to feel like the other non-force using classes. For example, my sorc. isn't going to be a Dark Councillor anymore so there is no need for the reverence, so they don't need to write it into the story. I have faith that the story itself will be good and the companion thing will be a non-issue because we've seen BW's ability to craft story. I just hope that in making us the "Outlanders" that they don't strip the rest of our characters away to fit us into that role. Empire or not, my sorc will still zap anyone who sasses her or disrespects her.

[Abvora]

Also agree with just about everything the OP says.

 

Imp!Makeb makes most sense with Darth Nox/Occulus/Imperius and the Agent. Super important big asset needed for the Empire's success, but Marr needs to keep it a secret? That points towards him either choosing someone powerful enough or secretive enough to secure it. The Inquisitor's had time to play Sith politics by now, and probably knows about careful maneuvering, while working in the shadows is the Agent's specialty. The Wrath strikes me as too "brutal killing force" to get things done quietly, and Marr would never leave the fate of the Empire in the hands of a bounty hunter.

 

Pub!Makeb kind of sucks, but Trooper or one of the Jedi are the best fit. Smuggler, as you said, doesn't fit the "important person" archetype enough.

 

The attacks on Tyhton/Korriban had to have been lead by one of the Force-users. I don't care how ****** Havoc squad is, there is a fine difference between fighting one Sith, and fighting an army of them. The only way the Trooper/Smuggler/Agent/Hunter were here is if "canonically" it was an assault team with all four heroes from each faction (which is possible, I guess, but falls flat in the face of SoR).

 

Shadow of Revan varies. Rishi leans more towards the underworlders and the Agent (who can naturally act like a pirate on the spot), but everything on Yavin IV screams Force-user. Ziost takes that a step further by leaning towards the Knight and Warrior via the whole "connection to the Emperor" thing.

 

So, to summarize: the "one size fits all" is all over the place, with certain parts fighting one class better than another. KotFE certainly seems to me like it's going to favor the Force-users again, with all the talk of being a "chosen one". While I'd like it if Bioware could find a way to make the other classes seem as equally "likely" or "important" to the story, they'd have a hard time of it, just because Force-sensitives are over-powered compared to normal people.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Abvora

[Darth_Wicked]

TL;DR: Class stories, man. Class stories. Edited August 4, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Nefla]

I don't mind every class having the same storyline now (that's how every BioWare single player game is) It would be waaaay too time and resource intensive to give each of the 8 classes(each with differences for gender, alien vs human, and LS vs DS) their own storyline again. What I DO have a problem with is the autodialogue and the limited roleplaying choices if it's anything like SoR. My LS Sith Inquisitor spend lv 1-55 being humble, kind, charming, merciful, and with an edge of humor, etc...In SoR he was suddenly this pompous A-hole in autodialogue and every dialogue option. Even the LS action choices were less "don't worry, I'll save you" and more "you're lucky I'm too lazy to kill you, you insignificant worm." What The Eff. I don't care what situations our characters are forced into but don't take away the option to role play a variety of characters!

[Methylium]

Oh well, i played a BH as first char through all of the story and never felt that missplaced at all. Marr is putting faith in the best killer he can get But some of the auto-dialog pissed me off for real: The jedi knight is always saying "may the force be with you" WITHOUT any possible choice. My knight would never say that at all, he's more like Lana with "may the force ever serve you". Anyway, i am going to pretend that this did not happen.

[Leklor]

I have zero problem with the Smuggler being chosen to lead the charge on Korriban.

My own Smuggler, at this point, was basically a republic-aligned crime lord. Getting hand-picked for a spec/black-ops assignement, especially if none of the other Republic classes are around, makes sense for me.

 

I see the OP's point, but I'm not worried. It all depends on how you play your character.

Even Rishi on my two DS Sith didn't feel jarring. In felt like what it was: Two powerful and influential dudes cast in a world where everyone either doesn't know who they are or doesn't care. Where the only possible reaction to the insanity surrounding them is self-control because no matter how ****** they both were, they couldn't take on the whole of Pirate's Cove alone. Just remember that when you fight pirates there, it's either in self-defense or under the guise of your (Fake) crew defending it's honor (Or targeted revenge for the BH) while going around Raider's Cove slaying everyone who didn't grovel at your feet would be a sure way to paint targets all over your face and get blown up in a matter of minutes/hours.

As for the Smuggler hunting Revan, I really didn't see any problem here either. She (My main Gunslinger is she) was neck deep in that Revanite stuff. First she was played by Darok and went after him for revenge. Then on RIshi she ended mixed up in Lana's plan and didn't leave out of loyalty. Then when Revan's plan became clear, she stuck with Satele, Theron and the others because the Emperor's returning would be disastrous for business.

 

My point is: While a unified story may not always work for how YOU play certain classes, I don't have that problem and am thus not worried/concerned about that at all.

[Bobbyrab]

I hear what you're saying and agree, yet there's just not much BW can do about it.

 

Face it: in Star Wars, the hero will always be the Jedi folks. Trooper next, and smuggler...well, my main is a smuggler and going through 60 levels of basically being told I'm the Next Golden Boy of the Republic was not my ideal (DS Smuggler is more or less "hey we know you're building a criminal underworld and ripping us off but can you come save the galaxy again please?"). It's similar to the Imp stories. BW just has to pick a story and go with it and like you said, some segments fit on different classes better than others.

 

The only answer would be more class stories, but that's a pipe dream if there ever was one. Just too much cost, I'm sure. And if you're going to go one size fits all, probably best to go for Saving the World.

 

And I agree that some of the classes desperately needed class stories that weren't centered around being the newest Galactic Hero or Galactic Villain. The smuggler. Good Lord my smuggler needed something more fun than to go to every new planet, report to the Repub liasion and do Repub errands.

 

Sidenote: I still feel weird when my smuggler drops a Sith Lord. I just go back to Empire Strikes Back when Vader rips the blaster from Han. I don't know, maybe we need to see in a Star Wars film some kind of smuggler character defeat a Sith, but whenever I throw down with a Sith Lord in the game I seriously have to suspend every drop of disbelief. It's an effort.

[Saelinne]

A question: why do you all seem to think that force users are gods among men? That might be true with our level of technology or maybe something more primitive, but with the one the SW universe have? Now Sith sorcery is powerful thing I give you that, but the only thing saving a sith/jedi from a headshot from sniper a mile away is their danger sense and whether they are good enough to react in time...

To go back on topic - I am actually excited for the 1 story fit them all approach opposed to 8 class stories, as with it I am hoping they can give us better companion interaction....just better everything? But I didn't have a problem with how inquisition...actually all Dragon age was 1 story for everyone.

....Mass effect (especially 3) was horrible though:)

 

And I agree that some of the classes desperately needed class stories that weren't centered around being the newest Galactic Hero or Galactic Villain. The smuggler. Good Lord my smuggler needed something more fun than to go to every new planet, report to the Repub liasion and do Repub errands.

 

 

...the only good point for class stories I see is this one above - though as the outlander that might not be a problem anymore:)

 

Edit: ofcourse I forgot, but the game requires (sadly) some level of headcanon (battles especially - even force user vs force user, but even more for non force user vs force user). Even with individual paths my inquisitor kept repeating ''Show me where the fun is'' instead of asking where she needs to go....

Edited August 5, 2015 by Saelinne

[JDiablos]

A question: why do you all seem to think that force users are gods among men? That might be true with our level of technology or maybe something more primitive, but with the one the SW universe have?....

But I didn't have a problem with how inquisition...actually all Dragon age was 1 story for everyone.

....Mass effect (especially 3) was horrible though:)

 

I think the force users as gods among men is pretty much established by watching the movies. There's numerous examples of this.

 

There's Han/Leia/Chewbacca getting checked by Vader at Cloud City. Han is who the smuggler is based on and he walks into a room with his companion, see's a sith warrior and pulls out his blaster. He promptly gets it taken away and then made to sit down.

 

I want to say Padme and her entire guard ran up on Darth Maul in company with Obi-wan and Qui-Gon and are immediately stopped (there's a dozen of them with blasters) then they say something like "Hey...uh...you Jedi got this because we're just going to go around."

 

Anakin kills a room full of people on the lava city. Anakin and Obi-Wan single handidly scythe through a couple different ships of Robot's specifically built to terminate life.

 

Luke Skywalker wrecks a full sailbarge full of Jabba's worst and most nefarious. Fending off cannon fire and Boba Fett, and more than one person shooting at him.

 

Vader's force choke and the Emperor's lightning seem to have no counter for non force users to employ.

 

And that's just from the movies, you get into the books and you really get to see how powerful the Jedi are compared to everyone else.

 

Star Wars is based around Jedi and their exploits for the most part, and so for me, personally it's difficult to look at the invasion of Korriban or assault on Tython and think that a Smuggler/Trooper/IA/Bounty Hunter could even get to the front door let alone all the way to the Council Chamber. Killing Sith or Jedi for any of these classes requires me to head-canon that they were weaker jedi/sith barely worthy of the title.

 

Perhaps you personally don't feel this way, but I'm sure it's at least a commonly shared view for many of us.

 

As for Dragon Age the difference is the classes Mage/Warrior/Rogue/Ranger etc etc have always been on equal ground since Ultima on NES. So for them to have the same story doesn't require me to have the same problem as I do when Han Solo is destroying an entire Sith Temple by himself or when Darth Vader is running around Rishi getting told to go F himself and not choking the afformentioned offender in a fit of dark rage.

 

Again, I'm really excited for the story as well. You'll get no complaints from me when I get a chance at new Bioware story telling. Star Wars universe and Bioware story telling are two of my favorite things. I was simply talking about some things that jarred me last time, and wondering aloud with my fellow story and lore people if there are ways to work around some of those things.

[Saelinne]

They not giving you the choice to force choke (I assume lightning is missing too) some insulting pirate is their bad I give you that. Although that easily can happen on my inquisitor (BT1 so she looks kinda sickly and that strong wind may break her:) ) when faced with pirate who have no idea who she is....or even that he/she need to be afraid. That goes out of the window a little when faced with a warrior who have a good chance to not only have BT2 or 3, but also that they wear some very bulky armor (and so being very intimidating).

 

...actually I won't comment on the Han Solo vs sith temple because I haven't played SoR and I don't want to assume (when my assumptions will likely be false). But whether force users are gods I guess we will have to agree to disagree:)

Edited August 5, 2015 by Saelinne

[Bobbyrab]

As far as Force-users vs everyone else, I'd say the OT movies SEEMED to indicate that Jedi/SIth were only a few steps above the others. This is probably simply bc of technology limitations, but you didn't see Vader, Luke, Yoda or Obi Wan destroying groups and groups of people in God Mode.

 

Now, in the PT and everything else, from comics to books to video games, the Jed/Sith's God Mode is turned way up. No Star Wars creator, from Lucas to the novel writers of the EU, ever (to my knowledge) depicted non Force-users as having any kind of equal footing with the Jedi/Sith. And that's because the Jedi are always the superheroes and SW creators can't help but emphasize all the cool Force-y stuff Jedi and Sith can do. Lucas has mentioned the PT was his vision for the Jedi in their prime, and with all the tech-y changes he's made to the OT to make it more akin to his original vision I'd say he certainly wanted the Jedi to be in God Mode. I'd wager if he could have, Luke would have been doing even more super-duper Force stuff in ROTJ if there'd been the tech to showcase it.

 

Now, for 99% of SW storytelling this isn't an issue, as the Jedi are the focus. And even in this case, it's not the biggest thing in the world. I just always chuckle a bit to myself when my smuggler sawbones pistol-whips a Sith Juggs and he falls over dead (or maybe unconscious if that fight was PG-rated). What was BW supposed to do with the smuggler, have him only fight Greedo's and Boba Fett's?

 

Oh and yes, there's that one moment when Jango Fett kills a Jedi in Attack of the Clones, but one example in a whole line of SW stories isn't very encouraging.

[adormitul]

Okay I have a argument against that force users are gods. First Vader is special and very powerful in the force and he still got scares against non force sensitives you know that ****** and blue bounty hunter in the cartoons? Yeah that guy proved that force users can be defeated.

Also I can note all the times enemies where defeated by non force senstives also.

Example:

Most of the jedi order during order 66, all the jedi Atton Rand killed, all the jedi the robot assasins killed during the triumvirate, all the jedi the mandalorians killed during the blockade, all the sith assasins killed by the mandalorians lead by Canderous.

All the jedi the BH killed and they where a lot.The sith that the smuggler killed and the sith that the trooper killed of course with a strike team but that dude was a powerful sith. And lets not forget the siths and jedi the imperial agent killed.

[SithKoriandr]

Okay I have a argument against that force users are gods. First Vader is special and very powerful in the force and he still got scares against non force sensitives you know that ****** and blue bounty hunter in the cartoons? Yeah that guy proved that force users can be defeated.

Also I can note all the times enemies where defeated by non force senstives also.

Example:

Most of the jedi order during order 66, all the jedi Atton Rand killed, all the jedi the robot assasins killed during the triumvirate, all the jedi the mandalorians killed during the blockade, all the sith assasins killed by the mandalorians lead by Canderous.

All the jedi the BH killed and they where a lot.The sith that the smuggler killed and the sith that the trooper killed of course with a strike team but that dude was a powerful sith. And lets not forget the siths and jedi the imperial agent killed.

 

Order 66 had Troopers thought to be allies turning on the Jedi. Also had the Troopers out numbering the Jedi.

 

No one is saying all the Jedi are on the level of Anakin, just that they're usually showed to be better than whole groups of normal people. That was part of the reason for the clone army, numbers!

[Canareth]

A question: why do you all seem to think that force users are gods among men? That might be true with our level of technology or maybe something more primitive, but with the one the SW universe have? Now Sith sorcery is powerful thing I give you that, but the only thing saving a sith/jedi from a headshot from sniper a mile away is their danger sense and whether they are good enough to react in time...

..

 

The issue is more THESE Force Users. I've not played Consular because I understand it is dull as dirt, but the other three...

 

Inquisitor: Has a casual insta-kill (finger zap-zap) they uses frequently and by the time they're a Darth is expressly a minor god.

 

Knight: By the end of Act I they have frontal-assaulted a base of cyborg supersoldiers, dodged an insta-kill weapons satellite and blasted through two boarding actions including a dreadnought augmented with Sith personnel and war droids. And that's Act I. They ultimately kill a cosmic horror and seriosuly harm the Sith Emperor.

 

Warrior: One-man deathsquad. Teams of elite personnel are what they Force Push out of the way to kill the worthwhile target. Also storms a dreadnought solo. They're given a job that amounts to wrecking machine of other wrecking machines.

 

It's not an abstract issue thst no regular soldier can even annoy these folks. It's the canon plot.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Canareth

[adormitul]

And to add to that the consular does pretty much the same as the others but better.

I also want to add so does the BH.

Edited August 5, 2015 by adormitul

[Abvora]

BH is definitely an anomaly/uber-b@dass among non-Force Users, for all the Force Users they canonically kill/defeat. That Sith girl in the prologue, that Jedi Master and his Padawan at the end of Act I, that entire damn stream of Jedi in Act II, Jun Serros and maybe Darth Tormen in Act III.

 

Still, despite that impressive list of feats, I can't imagine them assaulting the home base of the Jedi. The numbers would just be too great.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Abvora

[adormitul]

BH is definitely an anomaly/uber-b@dass among non-Force Users, for all the Force Users they canonically kill/defeat. That Sith girl in the prologue, that Jedi Master and his Padawan at the end of Act I, that entire damn stream of Jedi in Act II, Jun Serros and maybe Darth Tormen in Act III.

 

Still, despite that impressive list of feats, I can't imagine them assaulting the home base of the Jedi. The numbers would just be too great.

 

Where they not backed up by a military force?