Whoah

[caederon]

As to the guy acting like gunships take as much skill as a strike/scout, that's easy to prove wrong. Last night I got 4 kills in about a minute in a bone stock GS without even resetting the hotkeys. An 80 year old on prozac could have done that.

That's quite an in-depth study you conducted. I bet the aces in those ships you killed really had egg on their face after being bested by a stock gunship! Good thing you discovered the secret only known to 80 year old prozac users before now. Clearly you have proven the validity of your argument with your one anecdote which surely is 100% accurate and would be even more compelling if we knew the context of your spectacular, easy victory.

 

It takes skill and knowledge to play all the ship classes well. It's unfortunate that only ~10% of the player base takes the time to develop that skill and knowledge instead of sputtering out incoherent arguments to justify their baseless biases and cover for their deficiencies.

 

Despon

[arkanone]

That's quite an in-depth study you conducted. I bet the aces in those ships you killed really had egg on their face after being bested by a stock gunship! Good thing you discovered the secret only known to 80 year old prozac users before now. Clearly you have proven the validity of your argument with your one anecdote which surely is 100% accurate and would be even more compelling if we knew the context of your spectacular, easy victory.

 

It takes skill and knowledge to play all the ship classes well. It's unfortunate that only ~10% of the player base takes the time to develop that skill and knowledge instead of sputtering out incoherent arguments to justify their baseless biases and cover for their deficiencies.

 

Despon

 

I'd like Bioware to at least have a GSF map that completely removes gunships just to see how many players it attracts. Better yet, get rid of bombers too. Put it on a separate Q and see how it does. I'm sure GSF will get along fine without the 2 or 3 "aces" per server in their gunships.

[caederon]

I'd like Bioware to at least have a GSF map that completely removes gunships just to see how many players it attracts. Better yet, get rid of bombers too. Put it on a separate Q and see how it does. I'm sure GSF will get along fine without the 2 or 3 "aces" per server in their gunships.

You know, denigrating people's skill level because they are good with a particular class of ship is a pretty sad and hollow form of trying to support your stance.

 

If you got your wish (and actually, having the ability to set up custom matches would be a very good addition to the game) you would quickly find that some other class of ship is OP and everyone flying it has no skill because it is easymode and so that should be removed, too. The T2 scout would be the first to go in that scenario, then the T1 scout, then the T1 strike, then the T3 strike and scout, then what you'd be left with is Pike vs. Quell: The Reckoning.

 

If your goal is to keep stripping away layers of tactical options until you get down to the simplest game possible where there is no depth but you can dogfight until the cows come home, then good luck with that I guess. I hope you fail, because it would make for a lousy, boring game.

 

Despon

[arkanone]

You know, denigrating people's skill level because they are good with a particular class of ship is a pretty sad and hollow form of trying to support your stance.

 

If you got your wish (and actually, having the ability to set up custom matches would be a very good addition to the game) you would quickly find that some other class of ship is OP and everyone flying it has no skill because it is easymode and so that should be removed, too. The T2 scout would be the first to go in that scenario, then the T1 scout, then the T1 strike, then the T3 strike and scout, then what you'd be left with is Pike vs. Quell: The Reckoning.

 

If your goal is to keep stripping away layers of tactical options until you get down to the simplest game possible where there is no depth but you can dogfight until the cows come home, then good luck with that I guess. I hope you fail, because it would make for a lousy, boring game.

 

Despon

 

You might have a leg to stand on if GSF was as popular as the other game modes in SWTOR. But it's not and its obviously a far cry from the appeal of great games like X-Wing and Tie Fighter.

 

We can argue about it all day but I'd rather see Bioware just give players a choice and see how it fares. It's not like it would take a few million dollars and an army of programmers to grey out the gunship and bomber tabs.

[caederon]

You might have a leg to stand on if GSF was as popular as the other game modes in SWTOR. But it's not and its obviously a far cry from the appeal of great games like X-Wing and Tie Fighter.

 

We can argue about it all day but I'd rather see Bioware just give players a choice and see how it fares. It's not like it would take a few million dollars and an army of programmers to grey out the gunship and bomber tabs.

If popularity somehow equated to quality, it'd be a whole different world.

 

I'll ignore the fact that X-Wing and Tie-Fighter exist in some unassailable Nostalgialand at this point, seemingly putting them beyond criticism. Those games were standalone products, released during a period of time when space sims were one of the top genres in computer gaming. It's great that popularity and quality intersected there.

 

GSF is a 'minigame' embedded within an MMORPG that fans of space shooters may have no interest in at all. Being Star Wars (though not canon and not using familiar iconic ship designs) it certainly appealed to some subset of the players. I doubt that many people joined SWTOR specifically for GSF. It has been abandoned by the devs for over a year now with no new content and barely a scant acknowledgement by them that it even exists.

 

GSF's inability to find a wider audience beyond the subset of SWOTR players that enjoy spaceship games is almost certainly a result of poor marketing, inaccessibility for people who don't like MMORPGs, and a confused, truncated development path. If Bioware had hoped to nurture and continually grow the player base for the game, they picked a really stupid way to go about it. But really, SWTOR in general has followed a very winding road in its lifespan and strong direction has not exactly characterized the game on the whole. "Throwing a bunch of stuff at the wall to see what sticks" has always felt like their core philosophy.

 

For a game that hasn't seen an update in over a year, the number of people still playing is a testament to the quality of the original design. I wish they'd let the dev team that made the game stick around and support it.

 

And to your other point, I'd be curious to see exactly how much money it would take to bribe them into developing some GSF improvements like a custom match tab etc. I'd been thinking of making a thread posing a Kickstarter or other crowdfunded path to funding something like that. Maybe I'll go do that even if it is shouting into the wind.

 

Despon

[Fractalsponge]

The XW and TF games were great for the story and the ambiance. When you consider the actual quality of play available, it was really pretty crappy compared to what you can get in GSF. There was almost no class variation in craft compared to what you get in GSF, and fights devolved into endless circle turns with minor throttle adjustments and basically no comparable reset to GSF's engine cooldowns. If you could somehow manually manage a maneuver like K-turn or P-dive within the flight model, that'd be one thing, but you couldn't. Of course, the people that want "pure dogfighting" on these forums seem to actually just want the endless circle turning fest that XvT offered, so maybe I shouldn't be too surprised. Edited August 5, 2015 by Fractalsponge

[CrazyOldMystic]

I've been watching this go on in MMOs since Ultima Online and Everquest. A gameplay mechanic or design philosophy is carved in stone by the developer and you're stuck in "their world". It doesn't matter if their pet project is running off customers--gunships in this case--they usually don't budge until it's too late.

 

If you want to keep playing GSF, the best you can do is adapt to the what's there. If you prefer to do something resembling flying and dogfighting, fly close to the gunships on your team and provide cover with your strike/scout. There's always going to be opposing players foolish enough to go after your gunships.

 

As to the guy acting like gunships take as much skill as a strike/scout, that's easy to prove wrong. Last night I got 4 kills in about a minute in a bone stock GS without even resetting the hotkeys. An 80 year old on prozac could have done that.

 

Dont get me wrong I do not expect change, it might come after the q times get even worse with battlefronts release, but like you said by then the damage will have been done. I just get tired of people pretending the gunship is not a huge problem in gsf, when it is obvious, and clear that it is.

[caederon]

I just get tired of people pretending the gunship is not a huge problem in gsf, when it is obvious, and clear that it is.

If you say it enough, maybe it will make it true!

 

So, what's your solution to deal with stacked bombers if gunships weren't around?

 

Despon

[Archonitek]

If you say it enough, maybe it will make it true!

 

So, what's your solution to deal with stacked bombers if gunships weren't around?

 

Despon

 

Bombers are a problem as well D:<

[GinnoTaki]

Gentlemen, don't you think that the root of the problem with GS and Boomers lies in the absenceof their usual targets in GSF? Remember what classes of ships were a regular targets for you Boomer's Space Bombs or your GS's Proton Torpedoes/Ion Cannons in the XW/TF? Vessels of the size of corvette/dropship and larger.

 

That's why GS's in GSF are boring campers with AWP from CS and Boomers are sitting ducks with mines. Lack of proper PVE environment and targets/mission goals made these two classes a campers of two different sorts. Not interersting, not epic, not SW spacesim.

 

P.S. Ah, how strong i'm missing that moments when you're piloting your GS or Boomer in the combat formation towards enemy Capitals, under escort of your fighter wings. While the OpFor is scrambling their fighters to intercept your wing and protect their captials. That WAS true STAR WARS spacesim, that was EPIC and SW on the whole 100%.

Edited August 5, 2015 by GinnoTaki

[caederon]

Gentlemen, don't you think that the root of the problem with GS and Boomers lies in the absenceof their usual targets in GSF?

No, I don't think that... but aside from my personal opinion is the reality that GSF development ceased over a year ago, and if any improvements are ever forthcoming, it will not likely be in the form of something that would require lots of resources to develop. Adding in capship combat is a lot more costly than, say, a custom match lobby.

 

Despon

[GinnoTaki]

No, I don't think that... but aside from my personal opinion is the reality that GSF development ceased over a year ago, and if any improvements are ever forthcoming, it will not likely be in the form of something that would require lots of resources to develop. Adding in capship combat is a lot more costly than, say, a custom match lobby.

 

Despon

Well, bad for GSF and SWTOR in general, then... Current gameplay as boomer or GS isn't engaging at all, as well as camping of some 'satellites'.

[Ligurio]

Bombers are a problem as well D:<

 

Wait.. without my bomber how will I easily kill the Sting/Flashfire spam ?

[CrazyOldMystic]

If you say it enough, maybe it will make it true!

 

So, what's your solution to deal with stacked bombers if gunships weren't around?

 

Despon

 

The basic strike fighter of the Empire allows a player to use both blasters and ion cannons. I have tested this strike fighter against bombers, to great effect. Unlike a gunship I am at least fighting him one on one and not siting at 10k away blasting his ship apart. The only area in this game where bombers become virtually invincible is when they cheat and park themselves in a tiny crack underneath the platforms. To be honest thats not the bombers fault as much as it is the platforms we have to capture were designed poorly. As I said thats the only area where Ive seen bombers cheat like hell. Before someone says I am a bomber hater, I mastered a non cartel market bomber on my commando, and not once did I use that tactic. Ill fly like a mad man around those platforms but I wont park in a nearly impossible notch to get to. If they changed the platforms, and people started using the basic strike fighter that has both blasters and ion cannons equipped bombers would cease to be much of a threat. As soon as there shields start to drop from the ion cannons they go boom. Now before you start saying mines are op, it is insane, how easy they make it in this game to spot mines. If someone runs into a mine its because they are not paying attention. Not to mention the fact that they do not active as soon as they are dropped.

[zaskar]

Seriously have none of you ever played a class'ed pvp game, none of you ever played TF2, Tribes, World of Tanks? Star Wars Alliance, Battlefield?

 

Because you're all ************ about mechanics that are tried and true for OVER A DECADE. The class balance is perfectly fine and you're all whining like every armchair pvp game designer since the inception of the game type in the mid 90s.

[caederon]

I have tested this strike fighter against bombers, to great effect. Unlike a gunship I am at least fighting him one on one and not siting at 10k away blasting his ship apart.

I'll set aside the fact that the best tactic for a T1 strike vs. a bomber is specifically to stay at range and pick at them with heavy lasers and torpedoes/concussion missiles. And, sorry for dragging this all into the Battlefront Appreciation Thread v1.0 . Maybe we should make a new thread debating just how bad of people gunship pilots are and how they should feel bad, because we sure don't have enough of that on the forum! But anyway, looking at what you just said there, I mean... sure, kudos for sticking to your guns. If your server presents you with situations where you are able to engage a bomber one-on-one without interference, and those bomber pilots have no capacity to deal with you, then I certainly can't argue about whether your tactic is effective or not.

 

On the servers that I have played on, which includes Begeren Colony, Harbinger, Ebon Hawk, Shadowlands, POT5, Bastion, Jedi Covenant, Red Eclipse and a cup of proverbial coffee on Progenitor for a stock night, that tactic would not often work. And it would not work because even in the absence of gunships, any team of bare middling quality will have people supporting their bombers at the node, because that is what you do. You support them. Additionally, you will often find more than one bomber at the node, and the good ones aren't 'park in a crack' bombers. The good ones know quite well where to place their mines, how to kite you around into them, and how to buy time until they get support. Watch some video of how Drakolich flies a bomber, on YouTube or his Twitch. You'll get an idea of how it goes. There will also be scouts nearby, who will tear your strike fighter up.

 

Incidentally, T2 scouts are better equipped to deal with a bomber than T1 strikes, especially if they can intercept them off-node. With rockets and Burst Lasers, they can melt a bomber down pretty quick. They are also very effective at anti-bomber play on Kuat Mesas domination, IF they can get to the node before the bomber does. The strike is less useful there because the best anti-bomber laser, Heavy Laser Cannon, is poor at short range and you will often have to fight a bomber at short range if it is entrenched on a node.

 

GSF is a team game. It has three well balanced ship classes and one class that the developers are ostensibly going to buff and hopefully, at that point, have four varied and interesting ship roles that fight at different ranges in different styles. They all have a place in the game. Nobody is cheating, skill-less, or morally deficient for choosing to play a certain class of ship. If certain ship types are giving you trouble, learn to deal with them in both one-on-one and team based engagements. There are many places to learn what tactics to use. There are many veterans who will go to great lengths to teach the intricacies of this game that they have spent quite a long time honing their skills in.

 

Bashing people for choosing to play a certain ship type and characterizing them as having less skill (based solely on choosing that ship) or labeling them cheaters is boorish, ignorant, and unsportsmanlike. So, don't be that guy.

 

Despon

Edited August 7, 2015 by caederon

[CrazyOldMystic]

I'll set aside the fact that the best tactic for a T1 strike vs. a bomber is specifically to stay at range and pick at them with heavy lasers and torpedoes/concussion missiles. And, sorry for dragging this all into the Battlefront Appreciation Thread v1.0 . Maybe we should make a new thread debating just how bad of people gunship pilots are and how they should feel bad, because we sure don't have enough of that on the forum! But anyway, looking at what you just said there, I mean... sure, kudos for sticking to your guns. If your server presents you with situations where you are able to engage a bomber one-on-one without interference, and those bomber pilots have no capacity to deal with you, then I certainly can't argue about whether your tactic is effective or not.

 

On the servers that I have played on, which includes Begeren Colony, Harbinger, Ebon Hawk, Shadowlands, POT5, Bastion, Jedi Covenant, Red Eclipse and a cup of proverbial coffee on Progenitor for a stock night, that tactic would not often work. And it would not work because even in the absence of gunships, any team of bare middling quality will have people supporting their bombers at the node, because that is what you do. You support them. Additionally, you will often find more than one bomber at the node, and the good ones aren't 'park in a crack' bombers. The good ones know quite well where to place their mines, how to kite you around into them, and how to buy time until they get support. Watch some video of how Drakolich flies a bomber, on YouTube or his Twitch. You'll get an idea of how it goes. There will also be scouts nearby, who will tear your strike fighter up.

 

Incidentally, T2 scouts are better equipped to deal with a bomber than T1 strikes, especially if they can intercept them off-node. With rockets and Burst Lasers, they can melt a bomber down pretty quick. They are also very effective at anti-bomber play on Kuat Mesas domination, IF they can get to the node before the bomber does. The strike is less useful there because the best anti-bomber laser, Heavy Laser Cannon, is poor at short range and you will often have to fight a bomber at short range if it is entrenched on a node.

 

GSF is a team game. It has three well balanced ship classes and one class that the developers are ostensibly going to buff and hopefully, at that point, have four varied and interesting ship roles that fight at different ranges in different styles. They all have a place in the game. Nobody is cheating, skill-less, or morally deficient for choosing to play a certain class of ship. If certain ship types are giving you trouble, learn to deal with them in both one-on-one and team based engagements. There are many places to learn what tactics to use. There are many veterans who will go to great lengths to teach the intricacies of this game that they have spent quite a long time honing their skills in.

 

Bashing people for choosing to play a certain ship type and characterizing them as having less skill (based solely on choosing that ship) or labeling them cheaters is boorish, ignorant, and unsportsmanlike. So, don't be that guy.

 

Despon

 

I am not the one getting all bent out of shape you are. You asked me how would ships deal with bombers, and I answered. Yes taking them out at long range is possible. I called no one a cheater, all I said was taking a bomber and parking them in a impossible notch to get to, is in fact exploiting the game. In my opinion yes is cheating. As for name calling. You called me what three names personally in one sentence. I did not once point my finger at anyone specific and call them anything. So who is the one with the problem? I think your problem is people are starting to recognize the serious problem with gunships in gsf, and your worried the devs may do something about that. Personally I have no idea if the will or not. With battlefront releasing and gunships still a major problem in gsf, I do believe the q times are going to take a huge hit.

 

As for the other guy this is not classes lol, or class vrs class pvp. This is about one variation of ship utterly annihilating players and driving new pilots away from gsf, which is causing a q issue, and setting the stage for more problems once battlefront releases.

 

Oh and before I forget I said gsf is hardly about aces with ships like gunships out there. If I get my arse kicked in gsf by another scout/strike I can appreciate that and have fun. Getting blown away at 10+k is where it gets to be *** lol. Obviously I do things differently however most gunship pilots do not show restraint and just love picking off the new pilots, or unmastered scouts/strike fighters.

 

I almost forgot something else there is a reason why the sniper advance class is not set at 50 meter range lol. If you do not understand the relevance of that statement well oh well.

Edited August 8, 2015 by CrazyOldMystic

[caederon]

GSF has never been about Aces, the fact of the mater is, gunships continue to drive players away. They continue to be the cheat ship.

Pretty sure that you called gunship pilots cheaters there, unless you are employing some version of English I am unaware of. English 2.0 maybe?

The only area in this game where bombers become virtually invincible is when they cheat and park themselves in a tiny crack underneath the platforms.

Again, this is pretty directly and clearly stating that they are cheating.

I called no one a cheater, all I said was taking a bomber and parking them in a impossible notch to get to, is in fact exploiting the game. In my opinion yes is cheating.

Literally in the same sentence you claim to be calling nobody a cheater, you call out bomber pilots for cheating. It does not require that you name names, you have called everyone piloting a gunship and bomber pilots that use terrain features to their advantage cheaters. It's right there in print.

 

To that specific point of bombers parking under satellites, they are not cheating. I think it's a lame tactic, but it's a perfectly valid one and an effective one against teams that don't know what they're doing. It's the same as bombers that park in a corner of the forcefield cage in Shipyards TDM. It's not cheating. It's not exploiting the game and they are able to be killed. They've found a position that makes it harder to get to them, but there's no exploit there.

 

In my ~5000 matches played, I have seen exactly one guy pull off something I'd consider an exploit of the terrain. There's a broken pipe on the pub side of Shipyards TDM that a bomber can wedge itself in and shoot out of at a particular angle, but the geometry prevents incoming shots from hitting it. It's not in any way effective to do that, but I saw a guy do that once. That was cheating, because he couldn't be hit, but could hit others. Parking under a satellite is not the same as that.

 

I don't fear the devs recognizing some problem in GSF and doing whatever to gunships, because gunships have existed in the game for a very long time and have already been toned down from where they were at in the early stages of GSF.

 

It would be really unfortunate if they removed any ship classes because it would lead to a less dynamic, shallower game.

 

Despon

[zaskar]

Let them sit there not moving being an easy target. When people do that they become free kills.

 

Look at the ships, look at the tools the devs have provided. ion, emp, armor piercing, these kill bombers quickly. Get above them, below them, find the vector at which they are venerable and unload.

 

As for the silly fools that park inside the capital ships on shipyards tdm. You know how to beat them? Ignore them. Move the fight away from them. Let them sit there doing dumb things. You lose as soon as you loose control of the battlefield. By falling for this baiting tactic you give battlefield control to the enemy, might as well not play.

[Danalon]

There was a time when I hated gunships, because they were the only thing that reliably could kill me. I had sensor dampening in most ships and my graphics are tuned down in GSF so I often didn't see gunships, neither on sensors, nor the charging animation. I received a lot of damage, often died, without seeing it coming. However, there wasn't really much stopping me otherwise. I was better than most pilots and usually couldn't be stopped except by own mistakes or when trying to attack a group of enemies alone or having to face another good (or better) scout pilot. I hated gunships because relatively low skilled pilots were able to kill me with rails. My answer to this was simple. I started to hunt down gunships whenever possible. They became my preferred target. Turns out, when actively looking for gunships they become much less of a threat.

Similar situation with bombers. When they first came out, I got killed by mines a lot and I especially hated tick bombers, because I died while my killer was more or less afk. I needed some time to adjust to bombers and I did that by treating them the same way as gunships. I prioritized bombers over other targets. Most bombers are just big targets before they reach their satellite.

 

TL,DR: Gunships and bombers can be annoying but they're not op and it's certainly not cheating to use them. When having problems with them, find a solution.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Danalon

[CrazyOldMystic]

Caederon you can continue to ignore parts of a post you cant explain away or do not wan tot, and can continue to chop my posts up so you can feel good about yourself. Me I said my piece on gunships and battlefront. I know I am right because I play with other players who do do gsf on a regular basis. I am out.

[DakhathKilrathi]

Caederon you can continue to ignore parts of a post you cant explain away or do not wan tot, and can continue to chop my posts up so you can feel good about yourself. Me I said my piece on gunships and battlefront. I know I am right because I play with other players who do do gsf on a regular basis. I am out.

 

Wait, just playing makes you right? 'cause uh. I'm pretty sure Despon also plays on a regular basis. With other people.

 

I happen to share his opinion, by the way. He's made several good points. You, meanwhile, have demonstrated that you don't actually understand the rules of the game you say you play on a regular basis.

 

But you're right because you say you are, even if the rest of the community disagrees with you, right?

[caederon]

Caederon you can continue to ignore parts of a post you cant explain away or do not wan tot, and can continue to chop my posts up so you can feel good about yourself. Me I said my piece on gunships and battlefront. I know I am right because I play with other players who do do gsf on a regular basis. I am out.

I'm not sure what parts of which posts I didn't explain away, but I sure want to! Feel free to enumerate your queries or concerns in bullet point and I'll answer them all.

 

None of this has anything to do with feeling good about myself. I take issue with people calling for ship classes to be eliminated from the game. I also take issue with people who suggest that just using a certain ship class constitutes cheating, or somehow is a moral failing on the part of the person who picked that ship class. I even go out of my way to give solid tactics on how to deal with the ships that people are taking issue with.

 

Believe it or not, I'm glad you and your friends play GSF! I do think you ought to give more thought to the game as it is before you tar and feather about 50% of the pilot population with your baseless accusations of cheating.

 

Despon

[AlrikFassbauer]

GSF has never been about Aces, the fact of the mater is, gunships continue to drive players away. They continue to be the cheat ship.

 

What drove me away from GSF were Scouts. No matter what I tried, they were always faster, had more kills etc. etc. ...