Glower Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 That's a pretty common sentiment right now....someone at BW has this "vison" (hardon) on what they want pvp to be like so feed back be damned! ^ Must be a Mr. Metrics clone ideas. Because he is also a very stubborn man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted July 25, 2015 Author Share Posted July 25, 2015 Lhancelot is.... 100% correct Sorcerer healing have never been easier. It's only when the other team really bloody focus me that I die. And I never run out of force. Like never. Just hit the magic button a couple of time, regardless of proc, and full bar again. What do I care if my Force Regeneration is slowed WHEN I CAN JUST HIT THE BUTTON ?!? Sure it will cost a few seconds of non-healing but really... Sorcerer are BEGGING for a nerf, and knowing EAware they will probably go to the extreme. Yep. And I was told by one particular guy that the time spent hitting that button to regen power in pvp was actually enough of a detriment because of the actual time it took to click it meant the sorc couldn't heal at that time. lol. And his was a serious rebuttal to what I explained from my experience while playing the sorc on PTS which was the class had been made even easier to play and more powerful. But in all seriousness, I do not fully blame devs on this, why? Because tons of very vocal supporters of these changes wanted them to go through. Tons. Whether it was a pve crowd, or not... doesn't matter. The end result was that in PVP, sorc/sage was made much more "efficient" and they already had some significant advantages over other classes. Now they are that much ahead. Just wait for the nerf though. It's going to be huge. It always is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiaowZedong Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Yep. And I was told by one particular guy that the time spent hitting that button to regen power in pvp was actually enough of a detriment because of the actual time it took to click it meant the sorc couldn't heal at that time. lol. Errr....when I hit the new infini-Force button (Vindicate) on Live it's triggering a GCD. Now that's not much of an issue when my Sage has lolburstheals and I don't need to hit it that often, but it is a drawback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lalainnia Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Not going to be a huge nerf let alone a nerf. Just look at operatives how quickly people forget they were the best in pve and pvp healing for how long!?and still are close to top dog in 4s while being excellent in all other formats pve and pvp. Bioware has poor history when it comes to fixing anything just look at the pve exploits, if they were to nerf sage/sorc heals what would have been the point of 3.3 qol healer changes and all the feedback multiple players gave them about how crazy strong they would be. No this change is going to be here for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanNV Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 That's a pretty common sentiment right now....someone at BW has this "vison" (hardon) on what they want pvp to be like so feed back be damned! Trust me, it's not just PVP. If the feedback is negative you almost never get a response and it gets ignored. It's truly the definition of frustrating and why I spend way less time on the PTS than I used to. There's no feeling that feedback is appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shikyo Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 It is too early to tell for me personally as there is such a large surge of healers in warzones but this is what I see when I look at it so far: Healing classes- All three are now performing within a competitive margin of each other with Merc/mando being the healers that feel slightly behind BUT still playable in all current content. Tank Classes- All Tanks seem to be pretty close to each other however I haven't really tested my Shadow/sin tank in PVP yet so I don't feel I have a great perception of this quite yet. DPS Classes- These are where it gets nutty for me: If feels like only about half of the DPS classes are performing well with some in this bucket performing extremely well while the other half are underperforming with some that are simply a waste of space. Looking at this it seems the attention should be on the DPS classes. Even if the half that is underperforming were all not THAT bad, that is still a huge loss in DPS against Tanks and healers that are performing. You pretty much need every DPS in your group to be a class in that 50% of performers. Any deviation would immediately put you at a disadvantage regardless of skill and coordination. Just my two cents since 3.3 but time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiaowZedong Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) Healing classes- All three are now performing within a competitive margin of each other with Merc/mando being the healers that feel slightly behind BUT still playable in all current content. . If anything, the latest round of changes has left Merc/Mando further behind. The only thing the Merc excels at—burst heals—has become easier for all three classes, meanwhile none of the Merc's weaknesses have been addressed in any way. In fact Kolto Shots which they use to manage their heat has become weaker and Kolto Missile is standing still while most other heals get stronger. This makes them even more dependent on their casted, long cooldown abilities, and we all know what happens to casted, long cooldown abilities in PvP. Meanwhile Sages can run around spamming their four main buttons and if their channel (or a rare cast) gets interrupted, they don't care because their cooldowns are that short and they still have their back-up heals. And they also spend fewer GCD managing their resources. And I'm not sure about 3.0-3.2, but in 3.3 Sages feel bursty as heck. So I'm really not sure why anyone would heal on a Merc. Edited July 25, 2015 by MiaowZedong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake_Chambers Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 Meanwhile Sages can run around spamming their four main buttons and if their channel (or a rare cast) gets interrupted, they don't care because their cooldowns are that short and they still have their back-up heals. And they also spend fewer GCD managing their resources. And I'm not sure about 3.0-3.2, but in 3.3 Sages feel bursty as heck. So I'm really not sure why anyone would heal on a Merc. If there's one thing that seems unanimous it's that sorcs have to use consuming darkness a lot more and carefully (ie MORE global cool downs spent on our resources) and I doubt very much you play sorc heals if you're claiming we can spam any heals without quickly running out of force. Yes, sorc heals and op heals dunk on Mercs, it's nothing new and a buff doesn't appear to be in sight so idk, play the classes you like in regs and play fotm in ranked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiaowZedong Posted July 25, 2015 Share Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) If there's one thing that seems unanimous it's that sorcs have to use consuming darkness a lot more and carefully (ie MORE global cool downs spent on our resources) and I doubt very much you play sorc heals if you're claiming we can spam any heals without quickly running out of force. Quickly running out of force? Not really. I use Vindicate less often than Wandering Mend and that's a 10-GCD cooldown. If I run low on Force, Vindicate's already lit up anyway, all I need is to not run low on Force and HP at the same time while my Jesus bubble is on CD and so far that just hasn't happened. I've died to the brute force approach of loads of stuns and burst damage but never due to resource issues. This is all in regs of course, because I've just started healing on my sage (and run around in an unauged 168 healing set). I'm sure resource management is a bit more of an issue in a full trinity ranked match, but that's the case for all the classes. Edited July 25, 2015 by MiaowZedong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake_Chambers Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Quickly running out of force? Not really. I use Vindicate less often than Wandering Mend and that's a 10-GCD cooldown. If I run low on Force, Vindicate's already lit up anyway, all I need is to not run low on Force and HP at the same time while my Jesus bubble is on CD and so far that just hasn't happened. I've died to the brute force approach of loads of stuns and burst damage but never due to resource issues. This is all in regs of course, because I've just started healing on my sage (and run around in an unauged 168 healing set). I'm sure resource management is a bit more of an issue in a full trinity ranked match, but that's the case for all the classes. go try spamming heals without using consuming darkness, you're out of force in like 3 heals And if you didn't run out of force before the changes you're not after them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake_Chambers Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Sorcs are very squishy and our aoe is pretty weak, so a few small changes are obviously needed to make us competitive in high burst situations. A few balanced ideas are below: 3.3a Corruption Sorceror Changes. Through internal testing we realized that sorc healers were dying, which was not one of the goals we had in mind when designing Corruption. To eradicate this issue, several new passives have been added. -Roaming Mend now affects 8 targets, and upon healing a target grants a stack of lolutried. Lolutried multiplies incoming damage by 100% per stack and then reflects it back to the inital target. This effect lasts for three minutes and stacks up to 15 times. -Force Barrier now has a cooldown of 1 minute, and taking damage reduces the active cooldowns of Force Speed, Electrocute, and Force Barrier by 30 seconds every 1.5 seconds. -Overload now applies the Rerollsorcheals debuff to all affected targets, which makes all heals from Ops or Mercs that hit the affected target to deal 45,000 damage over 1.5seconds. We will continue to monitor the state of Sorceror healing and will buff as necessary. All these changes seem rather reasonable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transcendent Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Rant all you want but the problem isnt whether or not people tested, its why the devs didn't bother to consider any of the feedback and any of the classes. It's pretty much this sadly. I'd go as far as to say that there is little to zero point having the PTS itself or the PTS feedback forums for anything related to class changes. At least with the changes such as the AOE cap changes / PvP commendations changes the feedback was listened to, and changes made to improve them accordingly (qudos on that). Sadly as players we can see the direction things will go in, but unless the developers are prepared to take a step back and actually look and listen to the community in terms of class balance, things will be unlikely to improve (and the community has been fairly consistent in getting it right on proposed changes to classes - unlike the developers "vision" for the classes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jauvtus Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Sorcs are very squishy and our aoe is pretty weak, so a few small changes are obviously needed to make us competitive in high burst situations. A few balanced ideas are below: 3.3a Corruption Sorceror Changes. Through internal testing we realized that sorc healers were dying, which was not one of the goals we had in mind when designing Corruption. To eradicate this issue, several new passives have been added. -Roaming Mend now affects 8 targets, and upon healing a target grants a stack of lolutried. Lolutried multiplies incoming damage by 100% per stack and then reflects it back to the inital target. This effect lasts for three minutes and stacks up to 15 times. -Force Barrier now has a cooldown of 1 minute, and taking damage reduces the active cooldowns of Force Speed, Electrocute, and Force Barrier by 30 seconds every 1.5 seconds. -Overload now applies the Rerollsorcheals debuff to all affected targets, which makes all heals from Ops or Mercs that hit the affected target to deal 45,000 damage over 1.5seconds. We will continue to monitor the state of Sorceror healing and will buff as necessary. Great ideas, they should implement them tomorrow Btw I noticed that Corruption sorcs have quite low dps, maybe they should get 1000% dmg increase on their abilities to make them competent in dps area, too? Or new ability: Redistribute life: Channel time: as long as you wish Sucks lifeforce from the target, ticking 13k per hit while redistributing lifeforce for teammates, healing them 90% of their maximum hp each tick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted July 26, 2015 Author Share Posted July 26, 2015 Rant all you want but the problem isnt whether or not people tested, its why the devs didn't bother to consider any of the feedback and any of the classes. This is totally false and not true, regarding 3.3. To say, the devs "didn't bother to consider any of the feedback" is not fair or true. I am all about being salty when things aint fair and such, but the devs did listen to feedback. They did not implement the AE change on nodes which was a big thing. They also listened to the majority who said sorc/sages needed better burst for heals and power management FOR PVE/RAIDS. Read the past forum posts regarding 3.3 PTS, and see for yourself how many people supported the sorc changes! The problem is, all the vocal fanbois for sorcs cared not that this change granted sorcs a vast performance boost in PVP. Where I would blame the devs, is the fact they did not understand this aspect of the buff to sorcs. I said it, a few others also brought the problems up with these particular buffs for PVE, which were not good for PVP. That being said, I really wonder if some hidden buff to heals went in and a nerf to damage. I mean when teams carry 2-3 competent healers it's just ridiculous now how stalemated the match is. Before 3.3 in regs, if a team had solid dps, even if the other team had 1-2 healers, the dps side could win. Now, it really seems to be a given that the team with heals is guaranteed a win. Maybe it's my imagination, or a matter of bad matches the last 2 days. I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omeru Posted July 26, 2015 Share Posted July 26, 2015 Where were you at when PTS had these changes available to test out? I was there. I also complained that power regen with the change to a new ability "vindicate" gave sages infinite power because there was no risk for them to regen it now. They click it once, and *POW*, instant power, and they can spam this over and over till power is full, very quickly. They also lose no health when doing this. There's absolutely no risk to using this ability, and the power restored is pretty significant so it takes very little time to get full power again. I vehemently posted on this on PTS, and I was smacked hard by a wave of sorc/sages who said in PVE they needed this, and that, in pvp just the time to click "vindicate" was a risk, because that millisecond time used to click it, was not time being used to heal someone. That's what I was told. Over and over. With only one other guy on forums posting as I was, we were basically laughed and scoffed at by PVE and raiders who said it was not overpowered and was a great change, much needed. They also improved the sorcs healing output, which I also pointed out, was not necessary particularly in PVP. No support though on the forums. Had others tried this change on PTS, and voiced displeasure en masse it might not have gotten put in. The AE stopping objective captures, was not put in because of the huge backlash from people on forums saying it was bad. Ironically, many that posted it was awful never even tried it on PTS, they figured and felt it was bad, so they opposed it on the forums. I went to PTS with an openmind, and found the AE change one that was indeed not a good change, and I posted on forums my experience with that proposed change. Anyway, you reap what you sow. If you are too lazy to test stuff out when afforded a chance to, then just do the game a favor, and be lazy and don't bother whining on the forums now that the change was implemented and you do not like it. If anything, try to be constructive and organized in what the problem is, not just, "HEALERS OVERPOWERED NEED NERF I HATE WZ FIX NOW!!!111" Oh, on a side note. I am sure they will do something to "fix" the issue, my guess is the easiest thing to do is to tame the healing down a bit, and honestly they should do something with "vindicate". It should require much more thought and strategy to regen power on sorcs/sages. Other healers have really subpar methods to get their power back. Either give them better power regen, or make "vindicate" actually cost the sorc/sage something when they click it for power. It cannot remain as a instant clicky, regen power ability. If it is, then the amount of power gifted back should be very small. People didnt go pts and tested it since most of the experienced players are aware that bw devs. are inredibly arrogant who thinks their on paper calculations are much better than player feedbacks. And if you remeber sorc/sage healer updates all was starting with sentence "OUR INTERNAL TESTING SHOWED ....." yes they all started with this sentence it didnt said according to player feedback. So if you are sure you will be completely ignored so what is the point to go pts and wste your time. I remember Jugg enraged deffence change i dont remember even 1 comment saying this is a required change even jugg mains said it is a stupid idea buffing it and what happened in the end it went live. Even whole communty went pts and gave feedbact nothing would change since they dont read your feedbacks. We have community manger no need to name it but imo the worst community manager in any mmo, i dont see him making any feedback transactions between players and developers. I really dont know what he is doing as a job since he is clearly not doing community manager job. TL DR; pts is a joke in this game there is no communication between players and developers and the reason for that is community manager is failing doing his job at being bridge between players and devs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSIClaudeJulien Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 oh PvP'ers crying about anouther class because PvPers always cry and ***** and now the class will get a nurf because stupid pvp cry babies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhancelot Posted September 16, 2015 Author Share Posted September 16, 2015 I concur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndriusAjax Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 On the small pop server that is pot5, too many ppl surging to the fotm classes really hurts the wz ezperience. You're free to think sage heals are not OP, but you can't deny that they are overused. So thinking of this mess as a supply and demand issue, there are too many wzs with 3 sorcerer heals. It's head banging boring. Literally made me tired to q last night. So aside from all of our biased opinions of what is and is not OP, we can all agree that when variety starts to dwindle, change needs to be made. That's my opinion at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) You're free to think sage heals are not OP, but you can't deny that they are overused. So thinking of this mess as a supply and demand issue, there are too many wzs with 3 sorcerer heals. And the point is : Why are they so much over-used ? What made people believe it's better to roll Sorc ? Or even - who ? Ands that's a Community thing, imho. Because Community discusses, developes ideas, analyses things, and provides answers. Which other people pick up. People might say that a class is just great - and they might mean Group Ranked - but people believe that they mean Regs instead - just as an example. Edited September 16, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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