Marauder/Sentinel Set Bonus Discussion

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Lacetation and Incision is garbage for 2 disciplines, if you make a suggestion, make something that's good for the entire AC. Also utility tree isnt for increasing dps directly.

 

Again, I must agree with Jauvtus. We must keep in mind that the predominant problems facing Marauders in the current meta is the class itself, not the specs per say. Sure, each has issues, Anni is has a less than ideal rotation to say the least, keeping up it's DOTs seamlessly is exceedingly difficult given the absolute need for raid awareness due to the melee unfriendly mechanics in the 60 OPs ( predominately), Carnage's gore window which is it's lifeblood is so fleeting and so easily interrupted by raid mechanics, and if I understand the issues with Fury correctly, it has ability bloats and moves like a snail.

 

Addressing these issues (and these are just a sample of the issues of course), would be very difficult to do so appropriately, in the manner which they deserve, via set bonus. That which is granted on all 3 levels of the set bonus must be equally advantageous to all 3 specs. Were it not, it would cause a rift within the Mara community itself. We have enough problems heh. Furthermore, it should be irrespective of variant builds (alacrity, crit heavy, etc.).

 

No matter how bad Anni's rotation is, or how snail like Fury performs, neither of these things effect me in the least as a Carnage marauder. That said, despite that, I still want Anni and Fury to get their proper due. (And Carnage too!!).

 

After all, we're Marauders. We kill ****. That's what we do. That's all we do.

"Never hesitating, never faltering, there is no swifter bringer of pain in the galaxy."

 

~ Grim

 

P.S. I think Pathcarver increases DPS directly.

[jauvtus]

I think perhaps you mistook my meaning, or more likely my wording was poorly chosen.

 

My meaning was with regard to a damage bonus, no that a burst spec should do more damage over all than a sustained damage spec. A damage bonus let's say of 5%, even were it given to only Carnage and Fury (which I don't think would be fair, damage bonus should be applied to all or none), it still would not overtake Anni for sustained damage. Burst specs do more damage than sustained specs in the short term, sustained specs do more damage than burst specs in the long term. It can be no other way.

 

This sort of leaves carnage in a weird spot, because it is no longer a burst spec in the traditional sense, nor a sustained spec, it is equally both.

 

I'm for any improvements to be for the Marauder class. All the specs have individual needs, to be sure, but to any specific spec a change can only be applied through their respective discipline abilities. A set bonus, nor utilities is the place to affect specs, its a place to affect the Marauder class.

 

I also agree with you on your thoughts on the "homogenizing of classes". This also extends to the pvp crap. They should not be addressing one bloody thing that regards pvp in overall class amendments or set bonus'. PVP has its own gear and vendors. Give them their own damn set bonus pieces the same way they get their pvp gear. Not a big stretch.

 

~ Grim

 

Yes, its much more clear now

 

It's so annoying, it would be so easy to fix all 3 disciplines if devs actually payed attention. Im watchman myself, but I really feel the pain of Carnage/Combat, being neither real burst or sustained. I would really like to hear from the devs, what is Carnage/Combat's designed goal?

Would be nice if at least they said they will reevaluate all classes with 4.0 and we had a chance to revert Watchman to 2.10, fix Precision, reduce abilities for Concentration and give Smash back, get Contenplation and defensive forms as passive, Dual wield mastery, MS dmg and so many things we already had...

One can dream about a functioning class, cant he?

[Bahadori]

Yes, its much more clear now

 

It's so annoying, it would be so easy to fix all 3 disciplines if devs actually payed attention. Im watchman myself, but I really feel the pain of Carnage/Combat, being neither real burst or sustained. I would really like to hear from the devs, what is Carnage/Combat's designed goal?

Would be nice if at least they said they will reevaluate all classes with 4.0 and we had a chance to revert Watchman to 2.10, fix Precision, reduce abilities for Concentration and give Smash back, get Contenplation and defensive forms as passive, Dual wield mastery, MS dmg and so many things we already had...

One can dream about a functioning class, cant he?

 

What Combat/Carnage pain are you referring to? Would it be nice to have a longer Precision/Gore or Precision/Gore "Charges"? Yes. However there's nothing fundamentally wrong with Combat/Carnage. The spec preforms well as a burst spec and in skilled hands very well on sustained. Not to mention the overall DPS divide between Watchman/Annihilation and Combat/Carnage at the moment is less than 200 DPS. Contemplation and Defensive Forms would be a nice passive though.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Bahadori

[Raansu]

What Combat/Carnage pain are you referring to? Would it be nice to have a longer Precision/Gore or Precision/Gore "Charges"? Yes. However there's nothing fundamentally wrong with Combat/Carnage. The spec preforms well as a burst spec and in skilled hands very well on sustained. Not to mention the overall DPS divide between Watchman/Annihilation and Combat/Carnage at the moment is less than 200 DPS. Contemplation and Defensive Forms would be a nice passive though.

 

Gore needs to be 4s, but yes the spec is very much fine. Could use a bit higher sustained in pve but overall its fine. The only spec that is just completely broken right now is annihilation which desperately needs to just go back to how it worked in 2.10.

[Quangus]

Gore needs to be 4s, but yes the spec is very much fine. Could use a bit higher sustained in pve but overall its fine. The only spec that is just completely broken right now is annihilation which desperately needs to just go back to how it worked in 2.10.

 

Annihalation does feel very different compared to other past incarnations but how is it completely broken? Because for me it works almost perfectly fine. In fact, I usually do way more damage with it compared to the other two specs in pvp and I also feel the most comfortable in most situations as juyo. This is one example of a random wz where I could almost play to the fullest potential. I admit it wasn´t easy for me at first but once u get used to to it u can get things done with it def.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Quangus

[Raansu]

Annihalation does feel very different compared to other past incarnations but how is it completely broken? Because for me it works almost perfectly fine. In fact, I usually do way more damage with it compared to the other two specs in pvp and I also feel the most comfortable in most situations as juyo.

 

Its rotation is clunky (some say overly complicated but its not complicated, it just doesnt work). Its one of the lowest parsing specs in the game right now, its resource starved, you have to clip ravage for the optimal rotation of keeping your dots up.......That's just the small list. It goes on and on and on. Its not good in pvp either despite what you see in fluff numbers. You're not really hurting anyone with those weak dots. Carnage and Fury outperform Annihilation in every aspect in pvp.

 

Pre 3.0 it was a melee spec with some dot management. It wasn't really a dot spec and more of a hybrid which is what made it unique and fun and good. It had good sustained dps from the dots and had a pretty decent burst window. Post 3.0 BW basically tried to make it a pure dot spec where it plays just like a ranged dotter but melee with crap utilities and weak damage and a clunky rotation that was only made worse in the last patch where we actually lost almost 200 dps.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Raansu

[Quangus]

Then I must be doing it wrong since I still outperform most others in juyo. And if enemies keep falling before me I wouldn´t call it fluff damage either. Depending on the opposition there are things you can do and you can´t. If there are just weak players on the enemy side then yes, sure you will burst them down like nothing with ataru. However, once you throw in more skilled players who use stuns, tank and guard-switch wisely etc... you won´t get far. Even though Fury is kinda semi-protected against cc, its high burst or little aoe damage still don´t make a difference in the long run.

 

The only way to still put pressure on the enemy team is with juyo if you do it right. Of course you are still depending on your own team to do the rest but at least you won´t completely get shut down and you still do some damage.

[Raansu]

Then I must be doing it wrong since I still outperform most others in juyo. And if enemies keep falling before me I wouldn´t call it fluff damage either. Depending on the opposition there are things you can do and you can´t. If there are just weak players on the enemy side then yes, sure you will burst them down like nothing with ataru. However, once you throw in more skilled players who use stuns, tank and guard-switch wisely etc... you won´t get far. Even though Fury is kinda semi-protected against cc, its high burst or little aoe damage still don´t make a difference in the long run.

 

The only way to still put pressure on the enemy team is with juyo if you do it right. Of course you are still depending on your own team to do the rest but at least you won´t completely get shut down and you still do some damage.

 

With what? A 6 second dot that doesn't do much damage? A 15s dot that does even less damage? Annihilation doesn't apply any real pressure. Pre 3.0 when cauterize actually hurt and we could control a very strong burst window with frenzy and the auto crit on dots. That was real pressure from the spec.

 

Edit:

 

I can do high damage with the spec as well especially in a situation of your "example" where both teams had healers breaking 2million heals. Its not hard to build up high damage, but it doesn't suddenly make the spec "good".

Edited July 17, 2015 by Raansu

[Quangus]

There was just one good healer on each side (two of the best on my server) so of course these two had a lot to heal on their own considering what dps classes were running around.

 

If you think juyo is useless with its "weak" dots and don´t like it because of its playstyle... well, then I guess I have to accept that since everybody has to decide for himself if he is content with something or not.

 

I on the other hand had complete different experiences so far with it and just wanted to point it out that one definitely can get things done with it if one takes his time. At least everybody has to try it out for himself instead of writing it off just because others say so.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Quangus

[Raansu]

There was just one good healer on each side (two of the best on my server) so of course these two had a lot to heal on their own considering what dps classes were running around.

 

If you think juyo is useless with its "weak" dots and don´t like it because of its playstyle... well, then I guess I have to accept that since everybody has to decide for himself if he is content with something or not.

 

I on the other hand had complete different experiences so far with it and just wanted to point it out that one definitely can get things done with it if one takes his time. At least everybody has to try it out for himself instead of writing it off just because others say so.

 

There's a difference between opinion and facts. Annihilation isn't competitive right now in pve or pvp and especially so in ranked pvp. You can do well in regs with any spec because well.....its regs and usually only 2 or 3 out of the 8 people on the team even know how to play.

[Quangus]

There's a difference between opinion and facts. Annihilation isn't competitive right now in pve or pvp and especially so in ranked pvp. You can do well in regs with any spec because well.....its regs and usually only 2 or 3 out of the 8 people on the team even know how to play.

 

Oh and thats what I was just trying to sort out you know, opinion and facts. From your point of view it sounded like juyo was complete useless even in regs which I just don´t agree with. Thats all. As for serious pvp à la ranked, the class as a whole is not competitive no matter the spec and everybody knows it.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

There's a difference between opinion and facts. Annihilation isn't competitive right now in pve or pvp and especially so in ranked pvp. You can do well in regs with any spec because well.....its regs and usually only 2 or 3 out of the 8 people on the team even know how to play.

 

I hate to be an *** here. But once again we find ourselves discussing matters of fixing class/spec problems and using PVP as a basis for making points. If every single problem/concern was addressed with regard to the issues facing Marauder players in PVP, it would do nothing to solve the problems the class faces on the whole. There are infinitely more Marauder players (probably more so than any other class in the game) in PVE than in PVP. Marauders on the whole (there are exceptions) absolutely suck in PVP. (speaking mostly of Ranked). The numbers don't lie. And even the rare successful Marauder is not even close to the TOP rankings of many other classes. Right now the top Ranked Marauder on the Leader Boards is Zhorred ranked at 2002. There are only 2 lower. Juggernaut's Top is ranked 1913 (These are the "Warrior" classes mind you.) The Juggernaut is underdone by only one class, surprisingly, the Merc (but given the ranking is 1907, they are virtually tied at worst). Okay, so how outdone is the Marauder by the other classes? By a ton. Top spot goes to Sorc at 2904, virtually tied by PT at 2903. = 700 difference.

 

 

 

I would be very happy to hear that the issues facing Marauders in PVP were addressed. But exactly where these issues have anything to do with a discussion regarding set bonus improvements for the class as whole is beyond me. Any PVP issue that was addressed via Set Bonus would hurt the class.

 

Bulo cannot interrupt a gore window. (the circle hell can force us to move)

Sword Squadron cannot root us. (But unless your a sniper, when Gravity bomb hits, your getting pulled to the center no matter what.)

We're not getting stunned 3 times in a row virtually back to back in PVE.

We're not fighting sorcs and their God bubbles.

Nor dealing with the utter BS of Juggs free Heal to full. (True warriors should not be able to have such potent self heals no matter how you word it, as a class ability no less. As a tank it's a different matter. They're not making claims to being DPS.)

There are no pocket healers in PVE (In PVE they have to worry about everyone).

CC breakers (while very useful even in PVE) won't stop Sparky from drop kicking you half a football field away.

 

The best way to help the PVP community would be by vying for a distinct and separate system all together from PVE. A PVP set bonus. You have PVP gear. You have PVP vendors. You have PVP armoring's. A PVP set bonus should be a natural extension. Separate but equal. But even with that in mind no conceivable set bonus could come even remotely close to closing such a huge disparity in DPS as we see in the numbers on the Leaderboard for Ranked. The only thing that could come from class wide changes.

 

I am of the personal opinion, that there is no excuse for such a low performance of one of the 2 pure DPS ACs. The pure DPS AC (Sniper) is virtually tied with Marauder at 2006.

 

In my opinion, and there will likely be many who take exception this this, there should be no other class/AC, that out DPS' a Marauder or a Sniper. Generally speaking. Period. (On equal footing - Level, Gear, Experience, etc.)

PURE DPS means nothing but DPS. No other options. No other roles that can be switched to in a tight spot. No healer/Tank switches. No hyped up healing, no added defenses. You go in, you fight to the hilt, or you die. I can think of no other reason to play a "pure" DPS class/AC other than to do top DPS. If one guy trains in Martial Arts everyday. And another guy trains in Martial Arts on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and on the other days he takes painting classes, which one of these individuals is more likely to be the better Martial Artist in the long run?

 

An Assassin, someone trained fundamentally to avoid direct combat, taught to kill people without the people even knowing they are there to put up resistance, who runs and hides when hides when things get rough, only to come back once they've healed up some (all during "combat") and stab people in the back while they are stunned and once again can't offer resistance during that time, who can switch to a highly Defensive state (defence being the diametrical opposite of offense), these people fair better on a battlefield than a trained highly honed single minded offensive warrior who has not spent one split second training to do anything else but fight on a battlefield is not only utter *********, it is immensely unfair. (If an Operation or a "Warzone" could be defined during times of combat as anything other than a battlefield I need to look up the definition of the word). We can make such a comparison to history. The Ninja and the Samurai. ( I have trained in martial arts in real life, and thus had a natural interest in some of it's history). A ninja was an assassin in the truest sense of the word. The Samurai was a trained warrior in the truest sense of the word (Althought to be fair, samurai also studied poetry, and painting and philosophy as it was simple part of the prevalent culture of the times). Ninja were trained in combat as well, but only as a last resort, and even when confronted they had equipment and even "magic tricks" (kuji kiri) that would help them to try and avoid combat and make an escape (gas bombs, powders to blind a purser, caltrops also to stop them being chased, etc). But even if they could not avoid combat, while they were trained in combat, they generally faired poorly one on one against a trained samurai warrior.

 

So what the hell? What are Marauders for than? Why play them when a PT can out DPS us (not accounting for the exceptional players of the class) and still have all that armor, utility, and ohh yeah, can switch to a tank?

 

 

I do pretty well in my raid group, but King of DPS? I am not. Sometimes I come out on top, sometimes I don't. And if the forums are any indication. I am not the only Marauder who shares this sentiment.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Forgive the going off on a tangent, regretably I fall victim to that sometimes. I'll try to avoid that in the future.

 

To the OP:

 

Solidarity is hard to find when your calling for things that would hurt the rest of us.

I hope you get your due for PVP. I really really do. You deserve it.

I just hope it is not at the expense of the rest of us.

I'd like to see us all get our due as Marauders.

 

~ Grim

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

What Combat/Carnage pain are you referring to? Would it be nice to have a longer Precision/Gore or Precision/Gore "Charges"? Yes. However there's nothing fundamentally wrong with Combat/Carnage. The spec preforms well as a burst spec and in skilled hands very well on sustained. Not to mention the overall DPS divide between Watchman/Annihilation and Combat/Carnage at the moment is less than 200 DPS. Contemplation and Defensive Forms would be a nice passive though.

 

To be fair here, and I greatly appreciate all of your efforts for the maximization of Carnage/Combat, placing your abilities as the standard would be a great disservice to the rest of the Carnage/Combat community. You are the pinnacle Carnage/Combat user. The best of the best. That is not intended as flattery, but a mere statement of fact. I know of no other Carnage/Combat practioner who would dare even make the claim of achieving 5k+ dummy parses. I question even those who make the claim of achieving 4.8+k dummy parses. I do not question nor doubt your skill or ability but you are an exception, not the rule.

 

I have been a carnage user for about 3 years. I play no other characters but my Marauder, I parse everyday, I have studied every guild, applied every variant rotation suggested, tried every build. I have never once exceeded 4.5k on a dummy parse, and have reached that 4.5k dummy parse only once. I average between 4.2 and 4.4 (mostly closer to the 4.2 than the 4.4). I recognize that dummy parses are a difference beat than actually Operations. (I am a high end, end game HM progression raider). But those numbers only go down (by and large, there are some exceptions) in Rav/ToS HM Operations.

 

Clipping Ravage during a Gore Window (precision. you'll forgive me, I'm an Imp so I will go with that lingo for ease), isn't a science, nor sneaking in a Vicious Throw or DST. All the more so during actual combat. Raid mechanics that force a Marauder to move are sometimes completely unavoidable (this is a recap, I know you know all this stuff), and even when you know its coming (even when employing timers), adjusting one's rotation to such split second timing (i.e. gravity bombs during Sword Squadron in HM) is near impossible.

 

You can just about count on a 3 second Gore window during dummy parsing to fit all that is possible to fit in it in it. During an actual fight during an Operation that ease changes for most of us. Granted all that extra rage you build during live fights is a great boon and opens up many more options than one finds during dummy parsing, but it does nothing with regard to fitting in your most devastating attacks into a 3 second Gore window while dealing with raid mechanics.

 

With regard to the disparity DPS wise between Annihilation and Carnage. While you may be able to produce so much DPS than it limits that divide to a mere 200 variance. To the majority of us, your highest DPS is akin to a wet dream =] Annihilation has it much harder now, all the more so because tracking DoTs seamlessly with the melee unfriendly mechanics on the 60 OPs (much more so in HM) and the need for raid awareness is made much more difficult (Alacrity certainly is more advantageous to Anni now in such regard), and thus has lowered their general average under those specific conditions. Truth be told, that variance in DPS between the 2 specs is not really an issue for me personally. It always did more sustained, nothing new there.

 

Just to be clear. None of this is in anyway meant as a slight to you. Quite the opposite. You know I respect your awesome skills and have always been a fan of your guides, which have been treasure troves of knowledge for Carnage users. I have employed every last one of your suggestions. Sadly, I have never reached the heights you have. Naturally I cannot account the reasons why. It could be many things. Internet connection. Lag. FPS. (Tech issues). Gear I'm sure plays a part (I'm not as well geared as you - I am geared slightly more than half in Revanite - the rest 192 armorings (set bonus in 3 of the 6 set bonus pieces, but 198 otherwise mods/enhancements), Off-hand 198, but MH still 192 (hilt wise). I'm sure the 204 MH helps! Than of course there is always the possibility I'm just a baddie. Always possible.

 

While I am on The Shadowlands server, I am only on the IMP side. I wish I could come to your side of the fence to visit, because I would love nothing more than to take you up on your offer to do some training under you. I don't know how you are able to do so much DPS to those heights consistently, God knows I wish I did! You are the best of the best, so please temper my words with that in mind.

 

~ Grim

[Raansu]

I hate to be an *** here. But once again we find ourselves discussing matters of fixing class/spec problems and using PVP as a basis for making points.

 

I wasn't using pvp as a basis, it just happened to be part of the conversation. Annihilation is complete trash in pvp and pve right now.

 

I could care less about solo ranked ratings as "yolo" is garbage and shouldn't even exist.

 

I'm not reading the rest of the big *** post.....

[Bejarid]

reduce abilities for Concentration and give Smash back

 

Sweep seems fine as is for Concentration. Wouldn't say no to a slight buff, but I prefer the current separation of ST and AoE for the spec. Having your rotation gimped 'cause you don't want to potentially break CC was pretty terrible. Bloat is a huge problem, though, and desperately needs to be addressed - but this isn't really the thread for that.

 

On the topic of set bonuses and compromises, perhaps make the 2- and 6-set perks damage oriented, and the 4-set defense oriented? I know in PvE I still feel kinda squishy. Or, as I just saw in the 'Mando/Merc thread, each set has a different purpose - 2-set, defense; 4-set, damage; 6-set, utility. So something like:

 

(2) Saber Ward cooldown reduced 45s and increases damage absorbed by 50%.

(4) Zen increase your damage done by 3% for 15s. Slash causes your next Merciless Slash or Concentrated Slice to auto-crit, or your Blade Rush to add 1.5s to your next Precision; cannot occur more than once every 30s.

(6) Reduces cooldown on Valorous Call by 30s. Your Zealous Strike causes your next Master Strike to channel and tick twice as fast; cannot occur more than once every 30s.

 

Not entirely sure how fair and/or balanced those would be, but it's really just an example of what I was going for. Apologies for lack of Marauder translations.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Yes, its much more clear now

 

It's so annoying, it would be so easy to fix all 3 disciplines if devs actually payed attention. Im watchman myself, but I really feel the pain of Carnage/Combat, being neither real burst or sustained. I would really like to hear from the devs, what is Carnage/Combat's designed goal?

Would be nice if at least they said they will reevaluate all classes with 4.0 and we had a chance to revert Watchman to 2.10, fix Precision, reduce abilities for Concentration and give Smash back, get Contenplation and defensive forms as passive, Dual wield mastery, MS dmg and so many things we already had...

One can dream about a functioning class, cant he?

 

Or we can pray they just hire you and get that all done in one foul swoop!

 

Annoying as hell indeed. It all seems relatively simple in theory. Just a question of implementation. You were able to some up all the major points in just a few mere sentences. Spot on.

Keep on dreaming on. I'll join you. Who knows, maybe one day they'll actually surprise us and show they've finally gotten around to listening to the concerns and suggestions of it the player base.

 

~ Grim

[Aluvi]

I'm completely fine with the current set bonuses. There are many problems still to be addressed with Mara / Sents, but I don't think the 2, 4, or 6 piece PvE or PvP bonuses are the way to go about fixing them, as that leaves pre level 60 fully warzone geared players without those vital parts.

 

Also, I apologize on behalf of the sent/mara community. I know the devs are trying, but it just hasn't been enough yet. This class is difficult to play, and not really all that rewarding for the level of skill that is required to play it. Why play sent/mara when I can do more damage, take more damage per life, control fights better, have taunts or off heals, and have a much easier time doing all of the above through a simpler rotation and/or having many medium / long range abilities on one of the holy trinity classes (sorc, powertech, assassin). Why would I gimp myself like that? As fun as I find mara / sent, they're still a pure dps class without enough dps to make up for their lack of other utility (read: taunt, off heals, stealth, better "stay alive" mechanics, cc/stun/knockback immunity).

 

Melee by definition has less time on target than ranged. Because of this, we need higher dps, or guaranteed ways to stay on target. This goes for both PvE and PvP. For PvE, the solution is simple: stop creating operation mechanics that overly favor ranged and harshly punish melee. If there's something that makes melee's life hell in a fight, there should also be something that makes ranged life hell as well. Look at WoW. Blizzard is notoriously good at doing this. For PvP, it's not as simple, nor do I think it's feasible to expect a pure melee class to have close to full up time on ranged players, but when they ARE on those ranged players, it needs to really count. It needs to HURT.

 

I don't know how to fix this class. There are a lot of things that, given the resources and time, were I working at BioWare, I would try out. Things like making taunt only effective in pvp if you are a tank. Big, sweeping changes. I think making resolve affect root (to only slow) is a great idea and a step in the right direction. We need big sweeping changes like that.

 

What I do know, is that I perform 10x better playing my Vanguard / Powertech, so I will continue to do so, until sent/mara is viable again. I sincerely wish you the best of luck BioWare, and I hope that with the expansion, you sell tons of copies and you can throw money at these balance issues until they are solved, but I've given up at this point.

[Bahadori]

To be fair here, and I greatly appreciate all of your efforts for the maximization of Carnage/Combat, placing your abilities as the standard would be a great disservice to the rest of the Carnage/Combat community. You are the pinnacle Carnage/Combat user. The best of the best. That is not intended as flattery, but a mere statement of fact. I know of no other Carnage/Combat practioner who would dare even make the claim of achieving 5k+ dummy parses. I question even those who make the claim of achieving 4.8+k dummy parses. I do not question nor doubt your skill or ability but you are an exception, not the rule.

 

I have been a carnage user for about 3 years. I play no other characters but my Marauder, I parse everyday, I have studied every guild, applied every variant rotation suggested, tried every build. I have never once exceeded 4.5k on a dummy parse, and have reached that 4.5k dummy parse only once....Shortened for quotational purposes..... While I am on The Shadowlands server, I am only on the IMP side. I wish I could come to your side of the fence to visit, because I would love nothing more than to take you up on your offer to do some training under you. I don't know how you are able to do so much DPS to those heights consistently, God knows I wish I did! You are the best of the best, so please temper my words with that in mind.

 

~ Grim

 

I hear you brother and I agree with you for the most part. In response to your specific DPS i would be more than happy to meet up with you in VoIP (TS, Vent, Mumble) and go over things with you. I do have a Sentinel on the SL server specifically to help train people there. There are methods that would allow us to meet cross faction and still get a good training session in. With that said if you need help in the future just message me through my signature and we'll arrange something. /salute

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I'm completely fine with the current set bonuses. There are many problems still to be addressed with Mara / Sents, but I don't think the 2, 4, or 6 piece PvE or PvP bonuses are the way to go about fixing them, as that leaves pre level 60 fully warzone geared players without those vital parts.

 

Also, I apologize on behalf of the sent/mara community. I know the devs are trying, but it just hasn't been enough yet. This class is difficult to play, and not really all that rewarding for the level of skill that is required to play it. Why play sent/mara when I can do more damage, take more damage per life, control fights better, have taunts or off heals, and have a much easier time doing all of the above through a simpler rotation and/or having many medium / long range abilities on one of the holy trinity classes (sorc, powertech, assassin). Why would I gimp myself like that? As fun as I find mara / sent, they're still a pure dps class without enough dps to make up for their lack of other utility (read: taunt, off heals, stealth, better "stay alive" mechanics, cc/stun/knockback immunity).

 

Melee by definition has less time on target than ranged. Because of this, we need higher dps, or guaranteed ways to stay on target. This goes for both PvE and PvP. For PvE, the solution is simple: stop creating operation mechanics that overly favor ranged and harshly punish melee. If there's something that makes melee's life hell in a fight, there should also be something that makes ranged life hell as well. Look at WoW. Blizzard is notoriously good at doing this. For PvP, it's not as simple, nor do I think it's feasible to expect a pure melee class to have close to full up time on ranged players, but when they ARE on those ranged players, it needs to really count. It needs to HURT.

 

I don't know how to fix this class. There are a lot of things that, given the resources and time, were I working at BioWare, I would try out. Things like making taunt only effective in pvp if you are a tank. Big, sweeping changes. I think making resolve affect root (to only slow) is a great idea and a step in the right direction. We need big sweeping changes like that.

 

What I do know, is that I perform 10x better playing my Vanguard / Powertech, so I will continue to do so, until sent/mara is viable again. I sincerely wish you the best of luck BioWare, and I hope that with the expansion, you sell tons of copies and you can throw money at these balance issues until they are solved, but I've given up at this point.

 

 

I totally get your stance on this. Like you said, the class requires a higher level of skill to preform on any level than it would require on most of the other classes I think. It really is a class of skill. I know a lot of people think carnage is easy, and in theory it is, it's just so damn fast (which is what I love about it), but also that makes the split second decisions needed to be made even faster when something throws you off balance (which in progression raiding is a fairly regular occurence for melee! heh)

 

I understand why you'd feel it more rewarding to jump on your PT. Let's face it, when it comes to progression raiding and PVP equally (perhaps even more so in PVP), the numbers are everything when you get right down to it. For me sticking with the class is about 2 things. Firstly, I only play the one toon now. And secondly and perhaps this is a more escocentric reasoning, I feel like some of us need to hold the line so to speak. Not jump ship and stick with it so that the issues with the need to fix some of the problems facing the class don't become academic. That there are enough of us still around to put some fire under the devs asses. If there are too few left, where's the incentive for the devs to reexamine the class. With that in mind....

 

You mentioned how the devs are trying. I'm not one of those who feels that the Devs are evil, that they just don't care about the class. I always try to temper my frustration when referring to them, but there is frustration there. I know they have made small gestures and that is better than nothing. But simply put, it just wasn't enough. It didn't address the fundamental problems. For those of us who are strictly raiders (PVE), much of what they did do with the recent tweeks was in most cases meaningless to PVE (it did help some with PVP). Honestly, I could case less about predation. It has it's uses, to be sure, but not enough that giving us the option via utility choices to spec it independently from fury generation, that it warrants taking in when there are better choices (and in some cases absolutely necessary choices).

 

As you said, the fundamental problems facing the class can't be solved by Set Bonus. It can't even be solved by utilities. It needs to come on the class level. Innate aspects, abilities and passives. If melee must be plagued by melee unfriendly mechanics, it absolutely needs a DPS bump to help make up for the downtime when mechanics simply leave us no choice but to move away from the boss. It takes literally seconds for your DPS to drop significantly, but 100's of points for a few second of away time. Test it while parsing, keep the stead rotation going, watch it as it normalizes than stop for just a few seconds, and watch the numbers plummet. In a raid, they look at your DPS at the end of the fight a good deal of the time and draw conclusions from that. I have been in boss fights where my DPS was consistently kept in the 3.8k - 4k+ range for most of a fight and than at some point your forced away for any number of reasons,. with the end result being a substantially lower DPS mark when all was said and done. And that just sucks.

 

Pure DPS classes should matter when it comes to DPS. They should be the Kings of DPS. What the hell is the point of a pure DPS class if they are subpar in DPS to non-pure DPS classes (On average). It's very disheartening.

 

Your observations were very well put and directed. You cut right to the chase. Well done.

 

~ Grim

 

"The Darkside is more powerful. I don't care what Yoda says."

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I wasn't using pvp as a basis, it just happened to be part of the conversation. Annihilation is complete trash in pvp and pve right now.

 

I could care less about solo ranked ratings as "yolo" is garbage and shouldn't even exist.

 

I'm not reading the rest of the big *** post.....

 

I apologize is my comment seemed as accusatory or in any way a reproachment. That was not at all my intention, and if it came across as such I am sorry.

 

As I'm sure you know, there is often a strain between the PVP and PVE community about what is best for the class and often time these seem to be at odds.

 

Again, I apologize if my choice of wording was in any way offensive, it was not intended to be.

[xAZUREx]

2: Accuracy X%

4: Strength X%

6: Critical X%

 

Like the old skill trees could let you do.

[Camelpockets]

2: Accuracy X%

4: Strength X%

6: Critical X%

 

Like the old skill trees could let you do.

 

This guy. He's just going from forum to forum and asking for this change.

[xAZUREx]

This guy. He's just going from forum to forum and asking for this change.

 

well I think it would make more sense if all classes had this type of 2,3,6 piece that way they could balance it better rather than give gives special abilities putting classes ahead of another

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

This guy. He's just going from forum to forum and asking for this change.

 

 

I will say this about the idea. While perhaps a bit lackluster, depending on the actual percent bonus involved, it could be helpful in trying to balance out stat priorities and give us some more leeway in choosing where we might like to indulge in a bit. As an example, in order to make a viable alacrity build you have no choice but to dump surge in equal measure, and if you don't want to totally gimp yourself to obscene low surge levels, have to sacrifice bonus damage. This applies to a crit heavy build as well, though different stats may be involved.

 

There must always be give and take, you can't have everything, but to be able to indulge a bit more would be nice. This would also be helpful in achieving appropriate levels of accuracy (which in PVE as close to 100% is a must have).

 

I'm not saying that I think this is the best way to go, but I've seen worse suggestions and this has it's charm. I would however prefer to see surge or power in crit's place as crit is generally considered a dump stat for Marauders (Though there is nothing wrong with some crit and it is somewhat more useful for Annihilation.). I think we'd get more mileage out of power or surge rather than crit.

 

I would add that the percentage's would have to be significant enough that it would match the 5% damage bonus received at the 2nd and 4th level of the set bonus at a minimum. If were higher than that and thus provided a more significant damage bonus than present, that would go a long way towards this idea being more well received. As Melee in the current meta with it's melee unfriendly mechanics, a higher damage bonus is one of the most important things, I feel, that the Marauder class needs to make it more viable and competitive. This being out DPSed (generally speaking) by non pure dps classes is sickening, highly unfair, and frustraiting as hell.

 

No one should be out DPSing Marauders and Snipers, as pure DPS classes, and I mean no one. (Generally speaking). Not PTs, not Sorcs, not Operatives, and most certainly not sneaky Assassins. Not even Juggs. Sith Warriors they most certainly are, but they are not a Pure DPS class. If you can heal and/or you can tank, you should not be able to do more DPS, generally speaking, than a Pure DPS class. I can think of no more appropriate word to describe such a state than 'unfair'. It's very disheartening.

Edited July 20, 2015 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[ped_i]

These current set bonuses are fine as they are for the current (for a lack of a better term) balance of the classes. These were worked on by many top players during 3.0 PTS, asking us to come up with new ones without knowing what changes we are facing with 4.0 is a bad idea. What needs to be addressed is the obvious problems with the class, such as in PvE the boss mechanics and in PvP mobility. Since there are no new Ops maybe mobility in PvP should be addressed first then on 4.0 PTS we can work out the set bonus.

 

I will say that having pretty much the same set bonuses across all classes takes the uniqueness away from each class, example is that before 3.0 there were only 6 out of 18 advanced classes had auto-crit abilities, less than half. Now every class as at least one thanks to the set bonuses. These current set bonuses, at least some of the 6 pieces are pretty useless in PvP situations where we can't really count or predict up coming auto-crits. Maybe PvP and PvE need to be different again and each give bonuses with respect to the different aspect of the game, PvP bonuses should focus more on utilities and abilities that help the player survive better or help their team in a way. Out right dps increase is more of a PvE thing.

Edited August 20, 2015 by ped_i