Buff Guardian / Juggernaut

[Raansu]

This is another agro boy. Juggernauts need a rebalance. In 2 words.

 

Agro boy? What? "Two" words? That was not "two" words. Also, juggernauts definitely do not need any balance changes. They are the most balanced class in the game right now.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Raansu

[helpmewin]

Agro boy? What? "Two" words? That was not "two" words. Also, juggernauts definitely do not need any balance changes. They are the most balanced class in the game right now.

 

Coz juggernauts are sadly at any ranked match? Thats why balanced? Ok. Btw how about PvE?

Edited July 12, 2015 by helpmewin

[dkoo]

Coz juggernauts are sadly at any ranked match? Thats why balanced? Ok. Btw how about PvE?

 

Lmao. Not being in team ranked doesn't mean it needs changes. Noob mentalities like these are why balancing in this game is garbage in the first place.

 

Rather than overbuffing juggs what they need to do is nerf the other classes. All comps are viable in 4s as long as they aren't facing against opfotm dogsht such as double carbonize

 

In other words nerf sins nerf double carbonizes nerf operative heals etc etc blah blah, or they could just rollback the game to pre 3.0 where 4s actually took some amount of skills

Edited July 13, 2015 by dkoo

[helpmewin]

Lmao. Not being in team ranked doesn't mean it needs changes. Noob mentalities like these are why balancing in this game is garbage in the first place.

 

Rather than overbuffing juggs what they need to do is nerf the other classes. All comps are viable in 4s as long as they aren't facing against opfotm dogsht such as double carbonize

 

In other words nerf sins nerf double carbonizes nerf operative heals etc etc blah blah, or they could just rollback the game to pre 3.0 where 4s actually took some amount of skills

 

4s grp is dead a long time, only solo still breathing. Comparing balance around 4-s in this game nowdays is nonsene. Game shouldn't be balanced around 8-12 peoples each server. 4-s should be deleted. 8*8 RWZ is a way to go.

Nowday ranked is solo. Sadly, but its true.

Edited July 13, 2015 by helpmewin

[Monterone]

Juggernauts are tanky, but 0 escapes and bad mobility. As for rage and his mobility, well intercede anti-root is usefull to "carry" some1 and nothing more. All rage mobility is second 10m charge and thats all. Some1 told dat they can trade H2full for mobility, well mb dat is, but this another nail into the rage spec. And my tho the main problem is dat not juggernauts have bad mobility, the main problem is dat others have too much mobility and kite tools.

In my tho all juggernauts specs need a rebalance, coz i heard dat they far not top in PvE too. And coz combat team broke all class mechanic that works fine pre 3.0.

 

If we're calling juggs with a leap and a friendly leap low on mobility and 0 escapes, then what category do we put most other classes? Completely immobile? How can one of the most mobile classes in the game even be mentioned in the same sentence as the words 'bad mobility'. There are two gap closers that work on all 3 axes that are baseline with another in rage that also includes the z axis. So up to 3 leaps, 10-20 seconds of root immunity and speed if desired as well.

 

Sure, 3 leaps are no match for a force speed every 20s, or a sniper roll every 20s, or HO every 30s, but... wait a minute, 3 leaps every 20 seconds is way better than 1 mobility tool every 20-30s, right?

[helpmewin]

If we're calling juggs with a leap and a friendly leap low on mobility and 0 escapes, then what category do we put most other classes? Completely immobile? How can one of the most mobile classes in the game even be mentioned in the same sentence as the words 'bad mobility'. There are two gap closers that work on all 3 axes that are baseline with another in rage that also includes the z axis. So up to 3 leaps, 10-20 seconds of root immunity and speed if desired as well.

 

Sure, 3 leaps are no match for a force speed every 20s, or a sniper roll every 20s, or HO every 30s, but... wait a minute, 3 leaps every 20 seconds is way better than 1 mobility tool every 20-30s, right?

 

Oh lol, do u ever played PT or Sin and juggernaut? I just don't know what to answer srsly. What u type is nonsense. Ofc HO and 15 sec CD force speed is better than all ur leaps for melee, but this is warrior class design. Anyway maras got their anti-root/slow tool? Right? And pls don't tell me about endure pain utility, coz this is DCD and should be used in the end. I can tell the same why maras was unhappy if they can take anti-root with force cammo? Coz this is escape.

Edited July 13, 2015 by helpmewin

[Monterone]

Yes, I play all classes. Of those mentioned, sin was my second toon. Sorc was early release, sin right at launch... PT was my third about a month in, and jugg was 5th, after sniper.

 

I still play them all, and their mirrors.

 

Here are the classes or specs that come close to or equal to jugg mobility:

 

- PT/Vanguard with 2 utility points, 10s duration and extra speed. 3 utilities if you want 25s cooldown.

- Mara in Fury has two out of jugg's three leaps, but makes up for it with a group wide speed buff. These are all baseline but can be buffed.

- Any operative.

- MM sniper specced into Seek Cover/Heads Up for pretty much 50%+ uptime on speed and root immunity, which works great with short entrench on roll.

- Any assassin, because Phase Walk. Force Speed itself and alone is inferior to any listed above, but combined with PW which also ignores z axis, it is comparable.

 

Everything not listed here is inferior.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Monterone

[helpmewin]

Here are the classes or specs that come close to or equal to jugg mobility

 

I will take 1 PT - close or equal? This is laughtable, what u smoke give it to me, pls. Or u play regs mostly with ur internet friends in premade group vs pugs? This thread was cr8 coz problems with juggernauts mobility in ranked. And i do agree with them. PT mobility is insane if i say, melee dat can kite other melee and u can't kite PT as a range class.

I think our discussion have no sense, coz if PT have equal or close mobility to juggernaut. Oh boy, forget about my words, live in ur own world.

Edited July 13, 2015 by helpmewin

[foxmob]

I will take 1 PT - close or equal? .

pretty much. you either get the KO breaker or super speed HO. you don't get both. stun/mezz nullifies HO. nothing nullifies complete immunity after leap. but I think AP is a horrible spec (super high burst and super low survivability) and pyro is useless. so I'm just as annoyed about BH. 4.0 can't come fast enough. I haven't been pleased with a single patch of 3.x. I thought pyro PT was pretty much perfect at the end of 2.x. it wasn't as bursty but it had better survivability. and the game in general didn't have all these stupid immunities that cancel out everyone else's defensive CC, etc.

[SlightlySychotic]

pretty much. you either get the KO breaker or super speed HO. you don't get both. stun/mezz nullifies HO. nothing nullifies complete immunity after leap. but I think AP is a horrible spec (super high burst and super low survivability) and pyro is useless. so I'm just as annoyed about BH. 4.0 can't come fast enough. I haven't been pleased with a single patch of 3.x. I thought pyro PT was pretty much perfect at the end of 2.x. it wasn't as bursty but it had better survivability. and the game in general didn't have all these stupid immunities that cancel out everyone else's defensive CC, etc.

 

After everything are you actually complaining about the state of PTs now?

 

The leap immunity is borderline useless: it's four seconds after every offensive leap. That sounds like a lot -- four seconds every fifteen seconds in theory -- but the key words there are "after every leap." Leap has a minimum range as well as a maximum one; if you're rooted/snared and a player is too close to you it's as good as if he's on the other side of the map. Since three of the top four classes right now are melee that means there are a lot of players dancing in that range. Also, "after every leap" means it's obvious; it's possible to miss every other immunity indicator in the storm of particle effect going on but you don't miss that leap. Pretty much everyone at this point know that DPS Juggs get some sort of immunity when they leap; take a deep breath, wait for Ravage to finish, stun them, and run just outside of melee range (heal if you can). When they catch up to you, knock them back if you're ranged or pop your speed boost/roll if you're melee. You won't kill them but they sure as hell won't kill you either and you have more than enough room to take out one of his teammates.

 

And that is where Juggernauts are losing: not being able to take out an enemy before the opposing team takes out one of ours.

[Jadescythe]

After everything are you actually complaining about the state of PTs now?

 

The leap immunity is borderline useless: it's four seconds after every offensive leap. That sounds like a lot -- four seconds every fifteen seconds in theory -- but the key words there are "after every leap." Leap has a minimum range as well as a maximum one; if you're rooted/snared and a player is too close to you it's as good as if he's on the other side of the map. Since three of the top four classes right now are melee that means there are a lot of players dancing in that range. Also, "after every leap" means it's obvious; it's possible to miss every other immunity indicator in the storm of particle effect going on but you don't miss that leap. Pretty much everyone at this point know that DPS Juggs get some sort of immunity when they leap; take a deep breath, wait for Ravage to finish, stun them, and run just outside of melee range (heal if you can). When they catch up to you, knock them back if you're ranged or pop your speed boost/roll if you're melee. You won't kill them but they sure as hell won't kill you either and you have more than enough room to take out one of his teammates.

 

And that is where Juggernauts are losing: not being able to take out an enemy before the opposing team takes out one of ours.

 

Yes, yes. Please continue eating my full Ravage. Definitely don't CC me before the last tick, that would end very badly for you.

[foxmob]

After everything are you actually complaining about the state of PTs now?.

sigh. my opinion on the classes hasn't waivered. unlike you, I'm capable of a balanced opinion. you, however, are the guy who thinks he's entitled to ranked rewards just for queueing up. and then he whines because his JUGG (of all specs in yolo!) sucks. it's not the jugg buddy.

[sumquy]

After everything are you actually complaining about the state of PTs now?

 

The leap immunity is borderline useless: it's four seconds after every offensive leap. That sounds like a lot -- four seconds every fifteen seconds in theory -- but the key words there are "after every leap." Leap has a minimum range as well as a maximum one; if you're rooted/snared and a player is too close to you it's as good as if he's on the other side of the map. Since three of the top four classes right now are melee that means there are a lot of players dancing in that range. Also, "after every leap" means it's obvious; it's possible to miss every other immunity indicator in the storm of particle effect going on but you don't miss that leap. Pretty much everyone at this point know that DPS Juggs get some sort of immunity when they leap; take a deep breath, wait for Ravage to finish, stun them, and run just outside of melee range (heal if you can). When they catch up to you, knock them back if you're ranged or pop your speed boost/roll if you're melee. You won't kill them but they sure as hell won't kill you either and you have more than enough room to take out one of his teammates.

 

4 seconds of complete immunity immediately after your closer that you don't have to hit any extra buttons to get is...useless? LOL. do you even have to pay for it? does it cost a utility point?

 

in truth, i don't really have too much of a problem with this, but when combined with the super root on ravage, it is too much. okay, i can't stun him or push him away, but every jugg with a brain cell has figured out that that is the time for ravage. okay, again fine, but afaik this is the only root in the game that cannot be broken. root breakers don't work, cc break doesn't even work, but both will get burnt and go on cool down.

Edited July 13, 2015 by sumquy

[foxmob]

4 seconds of complete immunity immediately after your closer that you don't have to hit any extra buttons to get is...useless? LOL. do you even have to pay for it? does it cost a utility point?

 

in truth, i don't really have too much of a problem with this, but when combined with the super root on ravage, it is too much. okay, i can't stun him or push him away, but every jugg with a brain cell has figured out that that is the time for ravage. okay, again fine, but afaik this is the only root in the game that cannot be broken. root breakers don't work, cc break doesn't even work, but both will get burnt and go on cool down.

 

uh...wut? you can break ravage root with any root breaking ability (HO, breaker). not sure about cleansing it though. the only issue with running out of anything in this game is that video is only accurate within 1-2 seconds, which is what accounts for all of the problems with op rolls and rubber-banding (as I understand them). like, I could los a sniper and still take dmg. I can be 10m+ away from a war and still see ticks from ravage going off. it's just not a well optimized game. blame it one whatever aspect you will (client hw, server hw, game engine). bottom line is that it's not reliable. you have to be very good at anticipating what's going to happen to you so that you can move before it actually hits. because when you see it, chances are it's already happened (.5s to 2s earlier). frustrating. I never noticed this problem in WoW, but I didn't pvp nearly as much either.

[sumquy]

uh...wut? you can break ravage root with any root breaking ability (HO, breaker). not sure about cleansing it though. the only issue with running out of anything in this game is that video is only accurate within 1-2 seconds, which is what accounts for all of the problems with op rolls and rubber-banding (as I understand them). like, I could los a sniper and still take dmg. I can be 10m+ away from a war and still see ticks from ravage going off. it's just not a well optimized game. blame it one whatever aspect you will (client hw, server hw, game engine). bottom line is that it's not reliable. you have to be very good at anticipating what's going to happen to you so that you can move before it actually hits. because when you see it, chances are it's already happened (.5s to 2s earlier). frustrating. I never noticed this problem in WoW, but I didn't pvp nearly as much either.

 

then this is seriously bugged. i didn't list the sniper rubber band roll because it is unique to snipers and this was a general comment. i tried numerous times to use my specced countermeasures and my escape against a jugg root and it failed every time AND burned the ability to cooldown, so much that i don't even try them anymore. did they stealth fix this or is it just a sometimes bug?

Edited July 13, 2015 by sumquy

[SlightlySychotic]

sigh. my opinion on the classes hasn't waivered. unlike you, I'm capable of a balanced opinion. you, however, are the guy who thinks he's entitled to ranked rewards just for queueing up. and then he whines because his JUGG (of all specs in yolo!) sucks. it's not the jugg buddy.

 

I would hardly call an opinion that is completely based on subjective impression and arbitrary dismissal of objective figures "balanced."

 

Again, this is because the average ratings say Juggs are struggling. They're not only dead last but they're last by a wide margin. Those are facts. Saying that a specific class is comprised mostly of bads who don't know how to leverage their advantages is nonsense. Trying to say that other classes have it worse is besides the point; one classes performing badly does not nullify another class' poor performance.

[foxmob]

I would hardly call an opinion that is completely based on subjective impression and arbitrary dismissal of objective figures "balanced."

 

Again, this is because the average ratings say Juggs are struggling. They're not only dead last but they're last by a wide margin. Those are facts. Saying that a specific class is comprised mostly of bads who don't know how to leverage their advantages is nonsense. Trying to say that other classes have it worse is besides the point; one classes performing badly does not nullify another class' poor performance.

you're incredibly dense. incredibly. I don't have the words for it. look around. yolo is FULL of juggs. they're just fine. they're middle of the road. they aren't flavor of the month. they are, however, competitive. you are not. I get that. you need the participation medal. I get that. you get flamed out of the queue. ok. that's not juggs buddy. that's you.

[EAbovee]

you're incredibly dense. incredibly. I don't have the words for it. look around. yolo is FULL of juggs. they're just fine. they're middle of the road. they aren't flavor of the month. they are, however, competitive. you are not. I get that. you need the participation medal. I get that. you get flamed out of the queue. ok. that's not juggs buddy. that's you.

 

I'd agree, juggs are pretty balanced. MAYBE an argument could be made for rage but not by much. Remove/nerf a DCD, add a root break, voila! Problem solved.

[Raansu]

I'd agree, juggs are pretty balanced. MAYBE an argument could be made for rage but not by much. Remove/nerf a DCD, add a root break, voila! Problem solved.

 

They have a utility that breaks roots.

[EAbovee]

They have a utility that breaks roots.

 

You're correct. However, it being tied to a one minute DCD is a bit inefficient in my mind. Maybe get rid of enure for the DPS specs and add a true root break which isn't as long of a CD? I dunno, just spit-balling.

[Raansu]

0m leap would be more fun lol.

[EAbovee]

0m leap would be more fun lol.

 

I normally run as focus on my guardian, so I take the 0m leap for granted at times. But, oh, how I notice its absence when I roll as vigi. 0m min range to force charge/leap with a root break would be pretty sweet.

[Savej]

you're incredibly dense. incredibly. I don't have the words for it. look around. yolo is FULL of juggs. they're just fine. they're middle of the road. they aren't flavor of the month. they are, however, competitive. you are not. I get that. you need the participation medal. I get that. you get flamed out of the queue. ok. that's not juggs buddy. that's you.

 

Full of juggs doing badly, yep. It's #3 in popularity (not in grouped, tho). That proves nothing other than people want to pvp with juggs. Look at the top 1%, 3%, 5% whatever, in every AC and juggs have one of the lowest, if not the lowest average ratings. Look at the people with the most wins (most dedicated try hards) and juggs are definitely in last place (average rating) - no one else is even close. What facts could convince you that juggs currently, basically, relatively suck right now? Sure some players are doing better than others - some juggs lose more than others (same deal with every ac), some have gamed the system, q synced, and a couple might be brilliant/lucky, etc... but it's not just a few numbers or a specific view of the numbers. Almost 3 thousand players are not making the class work whether you look at all of them, the best of them or the most dedicated.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Savej

[Raansu]

Full of juggs doing badly, yep. It's #3 in popularity (not in grouped, tho). That proves nothing other than people want to pvp with juggs. Look at the top 1%, 3%, 5% whatever, in every AC and juggs have one of the lowest, if not the lowest average ratings. Look at the people with the most wins (most dedicated try hards) and juggs are definitely in last place (average rating) - no one else is even close. What facts could convince you that juggs currently, basically, relatively suck right now? Sure some players are doing better than others - some juggs lose more than others (same deal with every ac), some have gamed the system, q synced, and a couple might be brilliant/lucky, etc... but it's not just a few numbers or a specific view of the numbers. Almost 3 thousand players are not making the class work whether you look at all of them, the best of them or the most dedicated.

 

1.) Solo ranked is not a place to look for viability. It never has and never will.

2.) Sorc/PT/Assassin are simply over performing, simple as that. In terms of balance juggs (especially vengeance) are the most balanced spec in the game. Good DCD's, good consistent damage with pretty decent burst. Their mobility isn't that great, but their dcd's are designed to over come that. Overall juggs are in a great place. They are just not broken like the top 3 classes are right now.

[foxmob]

Full of juggs doing badly, yep. It's #3 in popularity (not in grouped, tho). That proves nothing other than people want to pvp with juggs. Look at the top 1%, 3%, 5% whatever, in every AC and juggs have one of the lowest, if not the lowest average ratings. Look at the people with the most wins (most dedicated try hards) and juggs are definitely in last place (average rating) - no one else is even close. What facts could convince you that juggs currently, basically, relatively suck right now? Sure some players are doing better than others - some juggs lose more than others (same deal with every ac), some have gamed the system, q synced, and a couple might be brilliant/lucky, etc... but it's not just a few numbers or a specific view of the numbers. Almost 3 thousand players are not making the class work whether you look at all of them, the best of them or the most dedicated.

 

no. it proves that yolo is a sandbox in which they can play. but ok. you want stats: Jedi Covenant

50 sorc/sage 1300+

35 PT/VG 1300+

29 sin/shad 1300+

25 jugg/guard 1300+

24 op/scoun 1300+

15 mara/sent 1300+

10 merc/mand0 1300+ (never heard of top 4 so suspect win traders)

12 sniper/gs 1300+ (that's subtracting two double listing for ppl who transferred back and forth)

 

shut the hell up with your whining about juggs in yolo. they're NOT op. it's perfeclty feasible to perform on them. they aren't broken. they aren't fotm. this slightlypsychotic dude is making excuses for why he's utterly terrible and demanding that he get access to top tier rewards as if he'd have a (*(&ing shot at them if he were a sorc or sin. instead of looking at the top shelf, look at the bottom. jugs are nowhere near the bottom. they're 10 floors up from the bottom. add all the mercs and snipers together, and you still don't get the number of juggs earning respectable ratings. boohoo. we're not OP! shut up. just shut up.

 

you wanna make some arguement about grp. fine. have at it. but any idiot can hop in yolo and figure out that juggs are fine. play the game. juggs are fine in yolo. this entire conversation is idiocy.

 

edit: should anyone wonder why 1300? because it requires a winning record.

Edited July 13, 2015 by foxmob