REMOVE Some Abilities & Simplify Hotbar For PvP

[Warlord_Maliken]

Shadow would be the most fun in PvP/PvE if the following changes happened:

 

- [Mind Crush] & [Vanquish] in Serenity spec will no longer respect the global cooldown when it procs. This proc was granted by the 'Force Strike' passive.

- [Force Slow] has been removed.

- [shadow Strike] (Infiltration) & [serenity Strike] (Balance) now apply a 30% slow for 4 seconds.

- [Martial Prowess: Passive Talent] Instead of Serenity Strike rooting the enemy for 2 seconds, it will improve the new slow application from 30% to 50%.

- [Motion Control: Passive Talent] Since Force Slow has been removed, this talent will now also increase movement speed by in Stealth by 25%.

- [Mind Control] & [Mass Mind Control] (taunts) have been removed for Shadows in the dps role.

- [blackout] has been removed. Instead, [Force Potency] will now also grant the same amount of force that Blackout did over the next 6 seconds. Stealth effectiveness at all times has been slightly increased as compensation.

- [Mind Snap] (interrupt) range has been changed from 10m to 30m.

- [Force in Balance] has been removed. [Whirling Blow] will spread [Force Breach] & [sever Force] to all nearby enemies as long as 1 enemy is affected by your dots and that "1" enemy is within 7m of you. Note that the duration of the two dots are not refreshed by [Whirling Blow].

- [spinning Kick] removed for Shadows in the dps role. Instead, [Double Strike] (Balance) & [shadow Strike] (Infiltration) will be empowered when used from stealth (lightning up on the hotbar to indicate this) and also take upon the attack animation of [spinning Kick] when used from stealth. Shadows in the tank role will still have [spinning Kick], and it will now deal approximately 33% more damage.

- [Resilience] now also reduces damage taken by 30% for the duration exclusively for dps roles.

- [Overcharged Saber] 's defensive bonuses are now exclusive to the tank role.

- [Force Cloak] now heals you for 3% health per second as long as you remain stealthed; reaching a total of 30% over 10 seconds.

 

Merge the pvp powerup items:

[Warzone Medpac] + [Warzone Adrenal] = [Warzone Adrenal]

[Tooltip Option#1] Instantly grants +30% health and reduces damage taken by 15% for 15 seconds.

[Tooltip Option#2] Heals you for 30% health and reduces damage taken by 15% over 15 seconds.

[Tooltip Option#3] Heals you for 30% health and reduces damage taken by 25% over 7 seconds.

[Philosophy] The heal over time tooltips encourage the happenstance of 'burst dps' in PvP. Also, I know logistically that in meta game you will normally want to use the medpac & adrenal separately, but my proposal is necessary for a bigger picture involving massive gameplay improvements.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Warlord_Maliken

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Please leave this forum and never return.

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

No.. Just... No. Leave and never come back... May we purge you from this Forum you evil scourge! Edited July 7, 2015 by Kaos_KidSWTOR

[Avicii]

Please leave this forum and never return.

 

Agree. OP already pushed his med pac + adrenal idea in the PvP forums and he got **** on. Now he is moving to the class forums, seems his goal is to dumb the game down to the lowest common denominator.

[Warlord_Maliken]

It is my strong belief that almost all of the advanced classes have a clunky gameplay experience in PvP, granting a synaptic overload rather than encouraging a silky smooth art form involving chaotic & chronic perception application. Having somewhere around 18 hotkeys instead of 29 is much more enticing for any gamer; veteran or tellytubby.

 

It is important to note that many people in the world do not like change in something that they have grown attached to, and strive to maintain stagnation - fighting off and serving as a spell check system to any notion of reform. It is a bias and unhealthy way to look at data, though however necessary for spell checking the 'patching' process of any said field of data. It is up to the enlightened and intuitive to bust through that spell check blockade and make the necessary changes, because at the end of that road - everyone is more happy. This has happened many times over the course of World of Warcraft. People would defend bizarre and crude view points like,

"Keep macros highly complex & integrated in to our rotations. We don't want to just hit spell reflection, we like writing macro scripts that stance dance for us, equip a sword and shield over our current 2hander, and then cast spell reflect. This is fun and makes XYZ class challenging and interesting ((*cough: this is = to 'i like my 29 buttons')) . Without this complexity, the game would be very boring." ~ WRONG, wrong wrong, very wrong. Its now better than its ever been gameplay wise. Its a mere attempt at playing devil's advocate subconsciously (not knowing that one is doing it for the hive).

So that being said, most people will hate me for bringing up this colossal proposal for change, but I nevertheless advocate it in hopes that just ONE awakened soul at bioware austin sees it. Thats all it takes.

 

Try your best to be open minded and IMAGINE the whole VISION involving the changes listed in the original post. It is my belief that the repercussions therein would make PvP and PvE more of a light experience in which each player would be at ease instead of a frantic when making spontaneous decisions on what to do with the said hostile in environment.

 

Thank you all for sharing your opinions. Please continue to share why you agree or disagree with these changes. However, I will not leave these forums. I feel that it is important that when any of us become passionate about something that we use this communicative channel to advocate change or commend previous change(s).

Edited July 7, 2015 by Warlord_Maliken

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

It is my strong belief that almost all of the advanced classes have a clunky gameplay experience in PvP, granting a synaptic overload rather than encouraging a silky smooth art form involving chaotic & chronic perception application. Having somewhere around 15 hotkeys instead of 29 is much more enticing for any gamer; veteran or tellytubby. Lastly, it is important to note that many people in the world do not like change in something that they have grown attached to, and strive to maintain stagnation - fighting off and serving as a spell check system to any notion of reform. This is a bias and unhealthy way to look at data. Try your best to be open minded and IMAGINE the whole VISION involving the changes listed in the original post. It is my belief that the repercussions therein would make PvP and PvE more of a light experience in which each player would be at ease when making spontaneous decisions on what to do with the said hostile in environment.

 

Thank you all for sharing your opinions. Please continue to share why you agree or disagree with these changes. However, I will not leave these forums. I feel that it is important that when any of us become passionate about something that we use this communicative channel to advocate change or commend previous change(s).

 

I actually LIKE having 29 - 35 different hotkeys to hit... It keeps me from getting into a rut of abilities and seeing the same skills all the time, sure I do have skills I use alot, but I can still have variation... So, again, LEAVE THESE FORUMS.

[MisterPepssi]

Leave this game and never come back.

[Warlord_Maliken]

Leave this game and never come back.

 

This is very hurtful and not productive at all. Why are you so mean?

Also..

Kaos_KidSWTOR: I actually LIKE having 29 - 35 different hotkeys to hit... It keeps me from getting into a rut of abilities and seeing the same skills all the time, sure I do have skills I use alot, but I can still have variation... So, again, LEAVE THESE FORUMS.

Also very hurtful when you beg me to leave the forums.

I already talked about people defending unnecessary complexity (or change in general for that matter) in history. I used the WoW Warrior's ability spell reflect as my specific example, but there are countless others. Its a subconscious script to play devil's advocate in these cases, which is welcome because it basically can serve as a spellcheck system for the proposer to polish critical points. So that being said, i embrace your mean behavior. So....

*insert creepy palpatine voice* USE your anger.. DO IT.... Strike me down.... It will only make me stronger.

Thank you everyone, and much love.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Warlord_Maliken

[Usif]

Sometimes you don't want to use Adrenal and Medpack together. Infact very often you should use them seperately, depending on the situation. And blackout/force potency... It's an offensive skill, not a defensive one, why would you tie them together? Taunts are not an issue. Not that often a DPS gets over 40k protection in a match anyway. Sever SF/FiB/FB all wrapped into one skill .... WHY? It puzzles me as to why you'd want to over simplify the class to a 3 button class.

 

Choices and keeping track of CD's/rotation using diverse CD's at the right time is what makes PvP, PvP.

[sithBracer]

Please leave this forum and never return.

 

this.

[Whojoo]

First of all, people stop saying someone should leave this game. Either say something usefull or shut up.

 

It is my strong belief that almost all of the advanced classes have a clunky gameplay experience in PvP, granting a synaptic overload rather than encouraging a silky smooth art form involving chaotic & chronic perception application. Having somewhere around 18 hotkeys instead of 29 is much more enticing for any gamer; veteran or tellytubby.

 

It is important to note that many people in the world do not like change in something that they have grown attached to, and strive to maintain stagnation - fighting off and serving as a spell check system to any notion of reform. It is a bias and unhealthy way to look at data, though however necessary for spell checking the 'patching' process of any said field of data. It is up to the enlightened and intuitive to bust through that spell check blockade and make the necessary changes, because at the end of that road - everyone is more happy. This has happened many times over the course of World of Warcraft. People would defend bizarre and crude view points like,

"Keep macros highly complex & integrated in to our rotations. We don't want to just hit spell reflection, we like writing macro scripts that stance dance for us, equip a sword and shield over our current 2hander, and then cast spell reflect. This is fun and makes XYZ class challenging and interesting ((*cough: this is = to 'i like my 29 buttons')) . Without this complexity, the game would be very boring." ~ WRONG, wrong wrong, very wrong. Its now better than its ever been gameplay wise. Its a mere attempt at playing devil's advocate subconsciously (not knowing that one is doing it for the hive).

So that being said, most people will hate me for bringing up this colossal proposal for change, but I nevertheless advocate it in hopes that just ONE awakened soul at bioware austin sees it. Thats all it takes.

 

Try your best to be open minded and IMAGINE the whole VISION involving the changes listed in the original post. It is my belief that the repercussions therein would make PvP and PvE more of a light experience in which each player would be at ease instead of a frantic when making spontaneous decisions on what to do with the said hostile in environment.

 

Thank you all for sharing your opinions. Please continue to share why you agree or disagree with these changes. However, I will not leave these forums. I feel that it is important that when any of us become passionate about something that we use this communicative channel to advocate change or commend previous change(s).

 

I could quote both your posts but for now I just do your last one.

I would argue that this game is fine with the number of abilities it has now. I can put the core and important stuff on 2 quickbars and use a 3rd for some other stuff for all my characters. Maybe 1 or 2 have an issue here and there.

 

So with that I think this game does not need to reduce the number of abilities.

Another reason being that the abilities used the most are just a fraction of the total. Hitting those (like force in balance and sever force) will hurt the playstyle and thus cause a negative impact.

For one, it removes the ramp up time a serenity shadow has while keeping the sustained damage. It will become OP in both environments for strong sustained and quick swapping.

 

So for the playstyles I think abilities should not be removed. All the other abilities are more situational and allow the difference between a beginner and an experienced player. Knowing when to use those extras is what you gain by playing and gaining experience.

 

So in short, I do not think that removing abilities is a good choice. It can easily hurt playstyle or hurt those who learned how to best benefit off some of the other abilities.

[Warlord_Maliken]

I could quote both your posts but for now I just do your last one.

I would argue that this game is fine with the number of abilities it has now. I can put the core and important stuff on 2 quickbars and use a 3rd for some other stuff for all my characters.

So with that I think this game does not need to reduce the number of abilities.

 

I actually believe from a PvE standpoint, that change would be better BUT not absolutely necessary by any means. So I do in turn expect PvE'ers to be a little flabbergasted by my original post, and only ask that reasons are given as to why one would argue a contrary viewpoint. Anyway thanks for the first legitimate feedback on this thread! Congratulations!! lol

I'd lastly like to clarify that when I 'remove an ability', its mechanics are usually inherited by another ability in an intuitive manner; creating an improved gameplay experience via the art of synapse. The goal in doing this is to create a focus on synapse value, especially in the PvP scene. Its also part of a much larger vision that I didn't completely share in the original post. I believe that other classes share a similar problem of clunky gameplay. For instance, I'd love to see the Marauder have cloak of pain's damage removed, and the remaining affects to be merged in to "Berserk", and even then rework Berserk further by adding the following.

[berserk] - Consume 30 frenzy stacks to go berserk for 12 seconds. You cannot gain frenzy stacks while berserk is active. While berserk you gain the following affects for the duration.

-15% damage taken

+15% alacrity

+15% movement speed

+1 rage per second

Depending on your spec/stance, the above augmentations will be enhanced. For instance:

Shi-Cho: -15% damage taken to -25% damage taken & gain +2 rage per sec instead of 1.

Juyo: +1 rage per sec improved to +2 rage per sec & bleed effects will crit.

Ataru: +15% alacrity & movement speed increased to +25%.

This massive and necessary change will make the player go RAWR. The synapse value will be at heroic proportions, something that is currently missing (in an awkward way). Make the signature move for this advanced class scream its subconscious theme, I GO BERSERK!!!!!

 

Blizzard experienced a beautiful gameplay overhaul (improvement) in going from Mist of Pandaria to Warlords of Draenor, their most recent expansion. Like i stated earlier, no more unnecessary complex macros (spell reflect example). More is not better, simplicity done right is god like - & detail is everything. I consider SWtoR & WoW to be the top 2 MMO's on the planet. I would like to see SWtoR take a massive leap forward when it comes to its pvp gameplay, because right now I see it as swtor's greatest weakness - and that hurts because they have such a wonderful template to make it great.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Warlord_Maliken

[Iona_Var]

I actually believe from a PvE standpoint, that change would be better BUT not absolutely necessary by any means. So I do in turn expect PvE'ers to be a little flabbergasted by my proposal, and only ask that reasons are given as to why you feel this way. Anyway thanks for the first legitimate feedback on this thread! Congratulations!! lol

 

Believe it or not, having few abilities to use makes the game dull. Everyone who has played an assassin knows how boring the rotation for madness and now hatred are. Leeching strike helped a bit as well as using assassinate above 30% but you still spam thrash more than any other ability. Not only that but it's harder to balance if you had a very limited number of abilities at end game. And how would you balance for entry level?

Edited July 7, 2015 by Iona_Var

[mmerry]

https://youtu.be/RGbTdfTh7AM

[Warlord_Maliken]

https://youtu.be/RGbTdfTh7AM

 

Fanboy autopilot functions clinging to stagnation and firewalling steve jobs from turning the ugly swan in to the golden Buddha.

Hogwarts remedial course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvCachzvCr4

Get served.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Warlord_Maliken

[mmerry]

Fanboy autopilot functions clinging to stagnation and firewalling steve jobs from turning the ugly swan in to the golden Buddha.

Hogwarts remedial course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvCachzvCr4

Get served.

Also, try being nice you mean person.

 

um sure i guess the majority of the people responding to you are just raging arseholes

Edited July 7, 2015 by mmerry

[Aelanis]

I'm going to have to agree with the majority here and say "no." These are wild changes that are going to completely screw with balance across the board. You didn't even mention what changes belong to what specs, so if we see someone hitting up to 8 people with a 3 Static Charge stack Discharge, for 13k each, that's a little obscene. Or a lot, considering they could go Discharge > Reck + Discharge, and back to back drop like 60k damage in 2 globals. Because that's balanced. Maybe later, when I'm not getting ready to move, I'll go back and break down each suggestion individually, but that just stood out as the worst offender. Not to mention that tying Blackout's Force regen into Recklessness also completely ruins Deception's sustained damage.

 

Also, poptart, I always look forward to your reaction youtube videos/gifs/memes. They make me smile.

[Aelanis]

Went through and commented as I saw fit. For those who don't want to read it, I think the changes are just as bad as pretty much everyone else in the thread.

Shadow would be the most fun in PvP/PvE if the following changes happened:

 

- [Force Slow] has been removed.

For PvE? Meh. For PvP? Kinda stings.

- [Low Slash] now applies a 50% slow for 6 seconds (as force slow did).

So let's remove the stun that Deception has (may not be bad), and replace it with a slow... that they already had. Also, let's just not give the slow back to Hatred or Darkness, right? Again, meh for PvE, not as fun in PvP.

- [Mind Control] & [Mass Mind Control] (taunts) have been removed for Shadows in the dps role.

There are actually legitimate uses for for taunting (and our aggro drop) for DPS in PvE, so this is actually kinda bad, there. If you did it for all tank classes, that would be parity, but that also removes some utility in PvP for the sake of having fewer buttons to press. You can have a streamlined interface and still have a lot of abilities.

- [blackout] has been removed. Instead, [Force Potency] will grant 30 force and -25% damage taken over the next 6 seconds on top of its current functions. Stealth effectiveness has been slightly increased as compensation.

Like I mentioned before: this will kill Deception's sustained damage. You use Recklessness about every 48 seconds, on average, though it would go down to 45 without Blackout. You use Blackout every 34 seconds, on average. Blackout grants an immediate 15 Force, and a secondary 24 Force over the next 6 seconds. You lose 0.48 Force per second switching to that. That hurts a lot over the course of a 300 second fight, on the order of 7 Voltaic Slashes. That's AWFUL. On top of this, it turns tanks nearly invulnerable when they pop Recklessness, as they suddenly get 30% Absorb AND 25% reduced damage. Not exactly balanced on a 90 second cooldown.

- [Mind Snap] (interrupt) range has been changed from 10m to 30m.

Melee class with a ranged interrupt? Because that's balanced.

- [spinning Strike] is now a 2 second channel attack that applies a slow (like the guardian's master strike). It will deal about 40% more damage as well.

This is awful. Yes, I totally want to stand around while people run out of my attack so they can cancel the last hit and rob me of a bunch of damage. On top of this, you're trying to fit a 2 second ability into each rotation, which is immensely clunky, as suddenly you push everything back a half second, and the cooldown goes up to 6.5 seconds on the ability, unless you want to waste a full second not doing anything to keep using it on cooldown. On top of that, Nobody is going to be okay with a move that hits for upwards of 15.4k in PvE on a 6 second (6.5 in reality) cooldown. That's just not okay.

- [Force in Balance] and [sever Force] have been removed for Serenity specced Shadows. However, [Force Breach] will now deal approximately x5 more damage over the 18 second duration. Also, [Whirling Blow] will spread [Force Breach] to all nearby enemies as long as 1 enemy is affected by your [Force Breach] and that "1" enemy is within 12m of you. Note that the duration of [Force Breach] is not refreshed by [Whirling Blow].

Now, I'm trying to keep an open mind about changing the rotation, but this is still an awful suggestion. Nobody liked Thrash spam. If you take those moves out of the rotation, guess what you get back? Thrash spam. Then you also go and increase dotspread radius to 12 meters? That's a 24 meter diameter, which is pretty much unavoidable at that point. On top of THAT, you're spreading a dot that will deal roughly 4-7k per tick after that 5x damage increase to all those enemies. That's just not okay.

- [spinning Kick] removed for Shadows in the dps role. Instead, [shadow Strike] will be empowered when used from stealth (lightning up on the hotbar to indicate this) and also take upon the attack animation of [spinning Kick] when used from stealth. Shadows in the tank role will still have [spinning Kick], and it will now deal approximately 33% more damage.

Again, I'm not sure you thought this through. There's one spec, and only one spec, that uses Maul, and that's Deception. Deception uses Maul when it's discounted to cost 10 Force, and deals an additional 30% damage. You'd be asking them to use a Maul at 40 Force for roughly the same damage? AFTER taking Blackout away from them to recover Force if they run out? Would you also be okay with Maul > Reck Discharge > Ball Lightning > Maul > Maul with crits of over 10k on each Maul? You want it to be streamlined, but it turns into almost a 1 button "rotation" that's a farce of what it's ever been.

- [Resilience] now also reduces damage taken by 30% for the duration.

Shroud is quite strong as it is right now. We don't need tanks to be able to pop Shroud + Recklessness + Overcharge to become literally unkillable for 5 seconds. That would be 52.5% of incoming damage at roughly 55% DR, with absorb in the high 80s to 90s, with the natural high shield chance (and Defense against things that Shroud doesn't automatically stop) the tanks have. Maybe Hatred could use a small non-heal based defense, but giving it to all the specs is bad.

- [Force Cloak] now heals you for 3% health per second as long as you remain stealthed; reaching a total of 30% over 10 seconds.

You won't see this used outside of PvP, and even then, people won't use it there for the full duration. As soon as you're out of sight, you drop out and start using a regen move, which is FAR faster. In PvE, you only stealth out to come right back into combat, because staying stealthed is a DPS loss and makes it impossible to tank, which is bad, if you weren't aware.

- [shadow Strike] now slows the enemy by 25% for 2 seconds for Serenity spec only.

Yes, I want to burn almost half my Force bar applying a measly slow for a super-low duration at melee range. Enough said.

 

Merge the pvp powerup items:

[Warzone Medpac] + [Warzone Adrenal] = [Warzone Adrenal]

[Tooltip Option#1] Instantly grants +30% health and reduces damage taken by 15% for 15 seconds.

[Tooltip Option#2] Heals you for 30% health and reduces damage taken by 15% over 15 seconds.

[Tooltip Option#3] Heals you for 30% health and reduces damage taken by 25% over 7 seconds.

[Philosophy] The heal over time tooltips encourage the happenstance of 'burst dps' in PvP. Also, I know logistically that in meta game you will normally want to use the medpac & adrenal separately, but my proposal is for a massive gameplay improvement more than 'Oh no, now i can't use my two powerups separately anymore'. After this change is implemented, class defensives can be buffed slightly if need be, or hell, the expansion can increase the health to damage ratio granting about 25% more health in pvp and thus removing the feeling of 'needing' to even use those powerups separately. In other words, you wouldn't miss it. Thinking critically is vital when you bring massive change to any field of data, and 90% of humans cannot critical think. That doesn't mean you can rub your chin and think about the vision's possible reverberating affects.

 

You turn 2 cooldowns into 1 for the sake of, literally, dumbing down the game. That's a matter of opinion of whether or not it's good, but I'm in the camp that doesn't like that. This is an MMO. You get lots of abilities in an MMO. I like to be able to pick from those abilities, and there are ones that obviously work better in certain situations. If you don't like that, then maybe MMOs are the wrong type of game for you.

[ped_i]

Game is hard. if you want a 4 button rotation class, play PT/Vanguard. very simple and does a lot of damage. Should be simple for you

[MasterFeign]

No ability bloat issues with sins. Last time there was anything of that matter, it was maras, and they've already fixed that.

 

Though I could see both classes of PTs/Mercs could do with a little stream-lining, maybe Juggs too, but that's for another day.

 

If I can remember off hand, Sins are one of the few classes where you don't have as many abilities on the bar, compared to other classes. With ops having the most, but most necessary.

 

The heavy focus on pvp-like nerfs you suggest, indicates that you're just not very good at pvp. Get a gaming mouse, or keybind, that's the best advise you'll need.

[Karkais]

seems his goal is to dumb the game down to the lowest common denominator.

 

I am currently having some fun play SWTOR than other MMOs, because several of the other MMO options opted for the "streamlined for console play" route and have something like 7 abilties total in actionbar. I prefer more options, not less, even though assigning keybinds is sometimes challenging.

[Warlord_Maliken]

Aelanis: "Went through and commented as I saw fit. For those who don't want to read it, I think the changes are just as bad as pretty much everyone else in the thread."

 

Shadow would be the most fun in PvP/PvE if the following changes happened:

- [Force Slow] has been removed.

Aelanis: For PvE? Meh. For PvP? Kinda stings.

- [Low Slash] now also applies a 50% slow for 6 seconds (as force slow did).

Aelanis: So let's remove the stun that Deception has (may not be bad), and replace it with a slow... that they already had. Also, let's just not give the slow back to Hatred or Darkness, right?

 

Maliken: I never said the stun would be removed from Deception.. The slow is an additional affect that kicks in after the stun occurs. Also, a slow IS granted to balance/infiltration via Double Slash as I have listed on the original post.

 

- [Mind Control] & [Mass Mind Control] (taunts) have been removed for Shadows in the dps role.

Aelanis: There are actually legitimate uses for taunting (and our aggro drop) for DPS in PvE, so this is actually kinda bad, there. If you did it for all tank classes, that would be parity, but that also removes some utility in PvP for the sake of having fewer buttons to press. You can have a streamlined interface and still have a lot of abilities.

 

Maliken: I stand by removing taunts for Shadows in the dps role, and I have no plans of removing taunts from other advanced classes that have tanking trees like the powertech & juggernaut. I feel that this change would encourage and focus the Shadow's gameplay incentives of being witty, stealthy, and dangerous (offensively). The 'loss' in PvE would be worth it macroscopically and would take a lot of weight off in the pvp scene to not have this artform (taunting properly, that is) leaning on your synapse receptors. The taunts are an impure interference in regard to my philosophy route for dps'ing as this advanced class. In conclusion, I believe this class' arsenal should encourage clarity in chaotic situations; wittiness and clutch play.

 

- [blackout] has been removed. Instead, [Force Potency] will grant 30 force and -25% damage taken over the next 6 seconds on top of its current functions. Stealth effectiveness has been slightly increased as compensation.

Aelanis: Like I mentioned before: this will kill Deception's sustained damage. You use Recklessness about every 48 seconds, on average, though it would go down to 45 without Blackout. You use Blackout every 34 seconds, on average. Blackout grants an immediate 15 Force, and a secondary 24 Force over the next 6 seconds. You lose 0.48 Force per second switching to that. That hurts a lot over the course of a 300 second fight, on the order of 7 Voltaic Slashes. That's AWFUL. On top of this, it turns tanks nearly invulnerable when they pop Recklessness, as they suddenly get 30% Absorb AND 25% reduced damage. Not exactly balanced on a 90 second cooldown.

 

Maliken: I think you are misunderstanding the full picture of what I am propsing when i bring forth these notions of change. Its about the vision of improved gameplay, not necessarily the accuracy of mathematical balance (tooltip #'s). In other words, if the Blackout change would REDUCE the amount of force regenerated over time than the old way, then simply INCREASE the amount of force regenerated over time via its new source: Force Potency. And if that messes up with tank roles then balance it accordingly! Its about the primary notion of change; not 'take it or leave it'. Again, if the extra defensive from the new Blackout is too powerful for tanks then just remove the damage mitigation for tank spec... If Force Potency has a longer cooldown and therefore the Blackout change seems dumb, then DECREASE Force Potency's cooldown accordingly. I feel that these things are petty and should be already generally understood.

 

- [Mind Snap] (interrupt) range has been changed from 10m to 30m.

Aelanis: Melee class with a ranged interrupt? Because that's balanced.

 

Maliken: Yes, it could very well be balanced. The Shadow wouldn't be the only class sharing my philosophy applications. I gave more of a taste/example of this by sharing what the marauder Berserk ability should be in one of my post. Its about the vision of enhanced gameplay, and the Shadow advanced class should be focused on super clutch decision making with a crafty arsenal at its disposal. Having a ranged interrupt as a melee class would feel very nice and unique compared to the other melee advanced classes, and again could very well be balanced after other major changes are implemented under this philosophy route. This encourages what the folks at Blizzard call "Concentrated Coolness". It makes each class FEEL very unique from the others. SWtoR is very weak in this department.

 

- [spinning Strike] is now a 2 second channel attack that applies a slow (like the guardian's master strike). It will deal about 40% more damage as well.

Aelanis: This is awful. Yes, I totally want to stand around while people run out of my attack so they can cancel the last hit and rob me of a bunch of damage. On top of this, you're trying to fit a 2 second ability into each rotation, which is immensely clunky, as suddenly you push everything back a half second, and the cooldown goes up to 6.5 seconds on the ability, unless you want to waste a full second not doing anything to keep using it on cooldown. On top of that, Nobody is going to be okay with a move that hits for upwards of 15.4k in PvE on a 6 second (6.5 in reality) cooldown. That's just not okay.

 

Maliken: This is actually the most skeptical change I have on the list. Its major for sure. I put it in because I would love to see this class with a beautiful high damage flurry attack. That being said, the 2 second channel would also apply a major slow on the enemy, so your enemy isn't going to be getting away all the time from it - and even if said enemy dodges the last attack, it won't wreck your dps output. It would work different than the Guardian's Master Strike, not having a dramatic 3rd attack at the end that is more delayed, but rather a quick flurry of attacks. Lastly, when you say "15.4k in pve on a 6 second cooldown isn't ok", I would come back again and say that you are taking my entire thread completely wrong if you are turned off by the mathematical imbalance of a change like this. As i posted above, this thread is about gameplay improvement, the mathematics (#'s, durations, cooldowns, %'s) can all be adjusted - it isn't a 'take as is' situation. That being said, I am glad that you come back with a 15.4k over 2 seconds comment because those notions are indeed important, but I do ask that when something seems bizarre like that, don't throw away the whole picture just because the math of it seems unfair. Think about the whole vision. All in all I agree with you on this - this ability should probably be left untouched.

 

- [Force in Balance] and [sever Force] have been removed for Serenity specced Shadows. However, [Force Breach] will now deal approximately x5 more damage over the 18 second duration. Also, [Whirling Blow] will spread [Force Breach] to all nearby enemies as long as 1 enemy is affected by your [Force Breach] and that "1" enemy is within 12m of you. Note that the duration of [Force Breach] is not refreshed by [Whirling Blow].

Aelanis: Now, I'm trying to keep an open mind about changing the rotation, but this is still an awful suggestion. Nobody liked Thrash spam. If you take those moves out of the rotation, guess what you get back? Thrash spam. Then you also go and increase dotspread radius to 12 meters? That's a 24 meter diameter, which is pretty much unavoidable at that point. On top of THAT, you're spreading a dot that will deal roughly 4-7k per tick after that 5x damage increase to all those enemies. That's just not okay.

 

Maliken: My main inspiration for this change was to make this exotic, double bladed lightsaber class have more animated focus on melee attacks in the attempt to channel more of a Darth Maul vibe. That being said..

When you say 'Thrash spam', I take it as being analogous to Whirling Blow spam(?), that being to spam whirling blow to spread the dots - and thus being boring and silly. Please note that the Shadow wouldn't actually be spamming Whirling Blow due to it not refreshing the 18 second DoT duration(s). On that note, my original recommendation of 12 meters may have been too high. Don't take the tooltip math at face value. Question it and bring it forth, but please remember to imagine the whole vision of all these gameplay changes - that is the goal.

You say 4-7k per tick is unacceptable after my 5x damage improvement. But all I did was add in the damage from Sever Force (which was removed) on to Force Breach. Am i missing something? How is this unacceptable damage? Its approximately the same damage as before.

MOST IMPORTANTLY. You say Thrash Spam, and a lot of people bring up the idea of a derp derp hotbar thats over simplified and 'dumbed down'. This simply wouldn't be the case. You have Serenity Strike AND a new ability coming in the next expansion. This is far from a 1 button smash faceroll.. People cried in similar fashion with World of Warcraft when the warrior's Spell Reflect macros were getting removed. You would now simply hit Spell Reflect, instead of quad-tapping your macro and then hitting another button to return to the offensive. Now a' days the warrior class in World of Warcraft plays better than ever (by a long shot)! Complexity can easily derive from silky-smooth simplicity. Numerous changes under this philosophy (with respect to synapse value) were made in World of Warcraft, and it has by no means created a 1 button faceroller but rather, arguably, the best gameplay the world has ever seen in a video game; keeping their 10 year old game alive and young. \\ P.S.\\ I regularly go b/t swtor and wow. Both are fun

Simplicity done right doesn't mean 4 buttons yay..... It equates to FUN. A synaptic joy ride in the heat of combat which allows the player to create their own artistic rendition and expression of their class, rather than an overburdening subconscious experience that involves a plethora of buttons that grant very diluted sensations *cringe*.

 

- [spinning Kick] removed for Shadows in the dps role. Instead, [shadow Strike] will be empowered when used from stealth (lightning up on the hotbar to indicate this) and also take upon the attack animation of [spinning Kick] when used from stealth. Shadows in the tank role will still have [spinning Kick], and it will now deal approximately 33% more damage.

Aelanis: Again, I'm not sure you thought this through. There's one spec, and only one spec, that uses Maul, and that's Deception. Deception uses Maul when it's discounted to cost 10 Force, and deals an additional 30% damage. You'd be asking them to use a Maul at 40 Force for roughly the same damage? AFTER taking Blackout away from them to recover Force if they run out? Would you also be okay with Maul > Reck Discharge > Ball Lightning > Maul > Maul with crits of over 10k on each Maul? You want it to be streamlined, but it turns into almost a 1 button "rotation" that's a farce of what it's ever been.

 

Maliken: Thank you for this. I will convey a more clear depiction of my goal.

In Infiltration spec, Shadow Strike will inherit the damage boost & spinning kick attack animation when used from stealth. The improved damage granted from stealth will be worth while as an opener even without the reduced Force cost proc. If it becomes a gameplay issue, simply reduce the force cost of Shadow Strike when stealthed... VISION! And no, its not 'roughly the same damage', it will deal a lot more from stealth, even relative to the +30% damage from the proc.

"After taking Blackout away from them to recover force if they run out?!"

No... Blackout's force recovery perk was inherited by Force Potency as previously stated, and also note that I said Force Potency can have a shorter cooldown and perhaps other tooltip changes to attain balance. So, Shadows Respite (energy regeneration buff after breaking stealth) will be granted from Force Potency and for a short duration after breaking stealth. Glad to clear that up. And lastly, no... i really cringe when i see people go to extremes and say things like "you want streamlined but a ONE BUTTON ROTATION isn't fun"... You simply, factually, would not have a 1 button rotation. There would in fact be, once again, a large artistic opportunity to be had from each individual player with the new arsenal. Again, we got Serenity Strike as a new ability, and this upcoming expansion is giving us ANOTHER ability. The artistic opportunity wrought from the arsenal will be enhanced and still plentiful! Why be silly and say "1 button rotation derp derp"? That is simply not true, just like it isn't true for world of warcraft's latest expansion. So many people cried the same stuff about the game being a 1 button masher just because they got rid of a few abilities and merged certain mechanics in to others - its NOTHING close to a 1 button rickroll! This is not subjective, its fact. Taking swtor and decreasing the hotbar from 29 abilities to 19'ish is very reasonable, and you will still have plenty to do (again, create an artform with it, unique to your playstyle in the chaos of chronic perception application; especially in pvp).

 

- [Resilience] now also reduces damage taken by 30% for the duration.

Aelanis: Shroud is quite strong as it is right now. We don't need tanks to be able to pop Shroud + Recklessness + Overcharge to become literally unkillable for 5 seconds. That would be 52.5% of incoming damage at roughly 55% DR, with absorb in the high 80s to 90s, with the natural high shield chance (and Defense against things that Shroud doesn't automatically stop) the tanks have. Maybe Hatred could use a small non-heal based defense, but giving it to all the specs is bad.

 

Maliken: That makes sense. Ok. So.. Shadow tanks would either not have this extra defensive at all, or have a reduced version of it. I was focusing on Shadow dps gameplay, i may not have been clear enough on that so my apologies. Perhaps make Overcharge's defensive bonus exclusive to tanks, and Resilience's defensive bonus exlusive for dps.(?)

 

- [Force Cloak] now heals you for 3% health per second as long as you remain stealthed; reaching a total of 30% over 10 seconds.

Aelanis: You won't see this used outside of PvP, and even then, people won't use it there for the full duration. As soon as you're out of sight, you drop out and start using a regen move, which is FAR faster. In PvE, you only stealth out to come right back into combat, because staying stealthed is a DPS loss and makes it impossible to tank, which is bad, if you weren't aware.

 

Maliken: Correct, you wouldn't see it used outside of PvP much; thats fine. The shadow wouldn't have to use it for the full duration. It is to enhance the synapse value of the Shadow's "Vanish" ability. I like the idea of it granting the subconscious a sensation of shelter, safety, and recuperation, rather than just shelter. It magnifies the primary directive of this being a defensive ability and I think the result is beautiful. Whether you choose to only get a 6% heal instead of the full 30% because you want to re-engage is up to you, and I think that is a fine and acceptable aspect. Its afterall, in theory, a cherry on the pie perk for this class.

 

- [shadow Strike] now slows the enemy by 25% for 2 seconds for Serenity spec only.

Aelanis: Yes, I want to burn almost half my Force bar applying a measly slow for a super-low duration at melee range. Enough said.

 

Maliken: Indeed. Thank you. I'll change that. Since Force Slow was removed, and I want to keep it that way, I would like for Double Strike to apply the 2 second slow instead. The tooltip could be changed to 3 seconds at a later time. I have the right vision for this (i think) necessary change, but I didn't make the right micro change. Solved? Share.

 

Merge the pvp powerup items:

[Warzone Medpac] + [Warzone Adrenal] = [Warzone Adrenal]

[Tooltip Option#1] Instantly grants +30% health and reduces damage taken by 15% for 15 seconds.

[Tooltip Option#2] Heals you for 30% health and reduces damage taken by 15% over 15 seconds.

[Tooltip Option#3] Heals you for 30% health and reduces damage taken by 25% over 7 seconds.

[Philosophy] The heal over time tooltips encourage the happenstance of 'burst dps' in PvP. Also, I know logistically that in meta game you will normally want to use the medpac & adrenal separately, but my proposal is for a massive gameplay improvement more than 'Oh no, now i can't use my two powerups separately anymore'. After this change is implemented, class defensives can be buffed slightly if need be, or hell, the expansion can increase the health to damage ratio granting about 25% more health in pvp and thus removing the feeling of 'needing' to even use those powerups separately. In other words, you wouldn't miss it. Thinking critically is vital when you bring massive change to any field of data, and 90% of humans cannot critical think. That doesn't mean you can rub your chin and think about the vision's possible reverberating affects.

 

Aelanis: You turn 2 cooldowns into 1 for the sake of, literally, dumbing down the game. That's a matter of opinion of whether or not it's good, but I'm in the camp that doesn't like that. This is an MMO. You get lots of abilities in an MMO. I like to be able to pick from those abilities, and there are ones that obviously work better in certain situations. If you don't like that, then maybe MMOs are the wrong type of game for you.

 

Maliken: Absolutely not. I do not turn 2 cooldowns in to 1 for the 'sake of dumbing down the game' as you so crudely suggested.... That is a very abominable representation of my vision of gameplay improvement and another prime example of silly extremism being taken to vilify creativity & change (though I think you do it subconsciously).

Thank you for expressing that you are in the camp that doesn't like this specific change, that is welcome and acceptable. Its part of the feedback I seek, though I really seek specific micro reasons as to why one holds such an opinion in the first place. When it comes to the philosophy application of the grossly misunderstood term 'mainstreaming', I find that people jump to bizarre and frankly inaccurate extremities that are obviously stupefyingly nongenuine. To elaborate..

I understand that 'you get lots of abilities in an MMO'. Each MMO has varying levels of hotbar buttons at the players disposal. Most of them have more than 10. SWTOR is around 27-29'ish in PvP, and I find that grotesquely overbearing and unnecessary. You can still have quality and 'options' with 17-19 abilities instead of 27-29.... That difference of 10 somehow turns in to =1 button, and this baffles me.

WoW understood that they had a quality issue with gameplay that caught up to them over the years. They were adding more and more abilities and some of the abilities didn't have any synapse value @ all. The whole picture show had become a diluted mess for each class (by the way, Blizzard's original company name in the 90's was Silicon & Synapse). They use to have around 30-35'ish and finally went down to about 15 this last year, because they realized the purity and excitement of good synapse value. The current state of the marauder's "Berserk" is a good example of poor synapse value. Its really a squandered sensation of epic proportions. The player should FEEL it in his/her bones when going Berserk, becoming the manifestation of wrath and empowerment. Currently, there is no such synaptic affect when using Berserk. I have a previous post describing a resolution to this mess if you want more information on that, but the main point is that YOU CAN get complexity from simplicity if its done properly. An entirely different overall experience can be wrought by a seemingly small change like taking away two abilities and merging their mechanics in to other abilities that share their primary directive (goal).

 

Aelanis: You get lots of abilities in an MMO. I like to be able to pick from those abilities, and there are ones that obviously work better in certain situations. If you don't like that, then maybe MMOs are the wrong type of game for you.

 

Maliken: Yes you do get a lot of abilities in an MMO.

I like to pick between my abilities too.

Yes, some abilities are better in certain situations. Cool.

"If you don't like that, then maybe MMOs are the wrong type of game for you"

I do like it... I love MMO's.... ???.....

Edited July 8, 2015 by Warlord_Maliken

[jauvtus]

7.0 Undead Kephess Returns...again....with cookies.

 

-disciplines have been removed, players now have access to 6 abilities, and cameras have been forced to have a near topdown experience.

 

8.0 - Return of Robo-Kephess from the past.

 

-class selection have been removed from the game, your class will be randomly generated when you log on.

-abilities have now been reduced to 4

 

The dream, No more infinite hotbars!

[seafreeish]

Wait, you literally don't have to use most of the abilities you want to remove. Just take them off your bar. For those of us who want more subtle sustained damage, stronger burst, and defensive counterplay, we'll keep using them. I ran into a deception sin the other day who just wanted to maul me over and over. Seems legit. That's what he wanted to do, I say let him do it.

[mmerry]

Im not feeling as trollish today so here goes..

 

I stand by removing taunts for Shadows in the dps role, and I have no plans of removing taunts from other advanced classes that have tanking trees like the powertech & juggernaut. I feel that this change would encourage and focus the Shadow's gameplay incentives of being witty, stealthy, and dangerous (offensively). The 'loss' in PvE would be worth it macroscopically and would take a lot of weight off in the pvp scene to not have this artform (taunting properly, that is) leaning on your synapse receptors. The taunts are an impure interference in regard to my philosophy route for dps'ing as this advanced class. In conclusion, I believe this class' arsenal should encourage clarity in chaotic situations; wittiness and clutch play.

 

A taunt in PvE can be the exact definition of a clutch play in order to save your raid team from a wipe during progression.

 

When you say 'Thrash spam', I take it as being analogous to Whirling Blow spam(?), that being to spam whirling blow to spread the dots - and thus being boring and silly. Please note that the Shadow wouldn't actually be spamming Whirling Blow due to it not refreshing the 18 second DoT duration(s).

 

Thrash spam comes from the 2.0-2.9 game cycle. As a balance shadow you quite literally only used double strike or saber strike when you didnt have to refresh dots or use FiB.

 

"Thrash Spam"

 

And yes.. I still have that log on my computer for some reason.....

 

Simplicity done right doesn't mean 4 buttons yay..... It equates to FUN. A synaptic joy ride in the heat of combat which allows the player to create their own artistic rendition and expression of their class, rather than an overburdening subconscious experience that involves a plethora of buttons that grant very diluted sensations *cringe*.

 

and

 

The current state of the marauder's "Berserk" is a good example of poor synapse value. Its really a squandered sensation of epic proportions. The player should FEEL it in his/her bones when going Berserk, becoming the manifestation of wrath and empowerment. Currently, there is no such synaptic affect when using Berserk. I have a previous post describing a resolution to this mess if you want more information on that, but the main point is that YOU CAN get complexity from simplicity if its done properly. An entirely different overall experience can be wrought by a seemingly small change like taking away two abilities and merging their mechanics in to other abilities that share their primary directive (goal).

 

I get the feeling that you play and enjoy the game differently than a good majority of the frequent posters in this forum. Im not saying thats a bad thing, its just how it appears. When I am playing my gunslinger and I hit wounding shots I'm not thinking "Wow what a cool ability. I love the way the energy damage from my blasters is causing the enemy to hurt more from my bleeds". Im thinking something along the lines of... "Do I have enough energy to use a quickdraw in this block or am I going to have to use a free filler." or "Do I have cool head/illegal mods up so I can burn harder in order to do more damage."

 

On the point of 1 button rotations..

 

You keep bringing up WoW and although I don't have near the playtime or experience with it, an Arcane Mage can literally hit 3 buttons and do passable damage. They wont top the charts or do optimal damage, but its still passable.

 

ABx4, missles with proc, AB if above 93% mana, Barrage if below 93% mana and no missile proc.. repeat

 

Simplicity does not always make things better.

Edited July 8, 2015 by mmerry