Issue in our forum that needs to be addressed.

[Luckygunslinger]

I think this needs to be said and it's getting vastly out of hand. This is not a name and shame thread but this is something that needs to be addressed. Lately a lot of players have began to pick up our class because of 12x or impending expansion and they have a lot of questions in regards to rotation, gear, levelling discipline, play styles and more. They come and ask for help and some people answer which is great, I'm happy to see the community grow and have more players pick up the class.

 

How ever, lately some individuals and you know you are have been fighting and being petty and at each others throats in these threads when all the posters want is help. It's not appealing to them as new players or others looking for help or current players to be around these individuals and may be resilient towards posting in case their thread gets buried in epeen flexing and experience flaunting about this and that. It needs to be said, those of you who are fighting like children are making this sub-forum a realistically annoying and sad place to be. A new player can't even ask if they should play Vengeance for PVP without the usual suspects jumping on one another and being children. You're not hear to prove your point, you're here to help players enjoy the class, and if you can't actually be mature enough to put your rants and insults aside, maybe you should leave the forum. I admit myself I've thrown my fair share of insults but the derailing of threads needs to stop.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Luckygunslinger

[Dalfurend]

Yeah I agree, and I have been sucked into it too much tbh and have been more part of the problem than a solution.

 

Sorry about that I have been trying to stay more on topic with the OPs as of late, to try and at least not contribute to it even more.

 

It would probably help if we had that Guardian/Juggernaut Rep thing again, and that person can just chime in and direct people to the advice that is relevant, and maybe outright delete everything else.

[adproduction]

1. In-groups.

You have pre-existing in-groups in these forums who have band together and made it their job to "inform" the people. Some of these people have issues dealing with other people and opinions. Some people I met in game and they can't separate their feelings between the messageboard and the game itself. (Going as far to affect their performance)

 

2. Lack of Clarity and Focus

While I know a lot of people have a lot of experience in what they do, some of them forget this game is about having fun. I said it in the past, when I play my builds, it isn't to compete, but to have fun. My build has proven effective in different avenues of the game. Rather than just leave it at that, these conversation turned into a mud sling match. I'm not a saint and I thrown my fair share of mud, but I normally do in response to someone else ill behavior. I have NEVER gone in someone else's topic and said "Don't listen to this guy because nobody listen to him" or "He's an idiot."

 

I never blame someone for someone else or my ill behavior. That's just childish. I can careless if you are 12 or 45, you don't throw insults with someone whose views different from yours. To me that is a sign that a person serious control issues and trying to use in-group/out-group mentality (us vs. you) is a sign of someone who is a very mature person. If I was a new person coming here and I saw the mud-sling and group pack mentality, I would get my advice more from internet guides than anyone the board. Moreover, I would refrain form interacting with the usual suspects who are quick to sling mud. It does show you are wise person when you sling mud or you know more, but rather it shows you have anger issue and poor judgment.

 

People tend to lose focus about what this game is about when they attempt to reinforce their in-group dominance.

 

3. Lack of respect, personal responsibility, and self-control.

If someone ask for a Pure tank build, I often give them a guide for pure tanking or my suggestion pure tanking. If someone ask for a Vengeance build, I often give them a guide for Vengeance or my suggestion for Vengeance. If someone ask for DPS tanking build, I often give them my advice for it and I'm immediately attacks and within a couple of seconds or hours, the topic is filled with post that have nothing to do with that person asked but personal insults. This is all due to the fact that these posters who engage in this in this behavior have no respect for others including the person who made the topic. It's like these people have never practice self-restrain in their lives.

 

The only time these posters seems to have respect is when the topic poster is in agreement with them. (the us vs. you mentality) This is particularly do to internet sociopathic mentality, in which you can post anonymously over the internet without consequence. This isn't my first rodeo as this happen in another Bioware game messageboard, which ended with a poster who had a beef with me nearly get a arrested for trying to post personal information in effort to do harm to my family. Like this forum, people who didn't agree with their builds, got bullied and they acted like elitist snobs. These guys ages ranged from 16 year of age to 40 years of age from the look of one guy.

 

At the end of the day, you trashed the person's post, you didn't apology, and you show how ugly you can be when things don't go your way.

4. Conservative mentality.

This idea that new ideas don't have a place here or their is only one way to do things. Again, this leads to the behaviors I noted above and it makes it hard for other board members to come up with new ideas or bring life to old ideas. Conservative mentality doesn't just create these behaviors, but these behaviors reinforces the mentality.

Edited July 2, 2015 by adproduction

[Luckygunslinger]

The issue isn't even behaviour any more. If people want to bicker like kids, do it in PM's on the site. But derailing threads is the key issue here, not what build is best and why it's best. This isn't a discussion on what information is right to talk about or which is valid, this entire topic isn't even about the game. Stuff is getting derailed too often with certain individuals and it's becoming just an eye sore. So if people are deviating threads, saying they know their stuff because of their rating in PVP, their experiences in operations, how long they've been playing the game, then they're wasting peoples time and just making this entire forum just a bad experience. People are going to be jerks, people are going to blast people's points of views and stuff of that nature. The SWTOR forums are notoriously toxic and that's not going to go away, but at least keep the toxicity out of people's posts who want help in the game. I wouldn't mind if someone posted a thread saying "Stack cunning augs cuz it gives more crit", that's pretty much calling for a lynching but when someone asks "What utilities should I take for Rage?" and the following happens

 

"Oh you take these."

 

"Nah, don't take those."

 

"Run Vengeance."

 

"Vengeance + Tank Gear."

 

"Lol, run full DPS gear."

 

"Shut up, I have 2000 rating, you're a scrub."

 

^ That's pretty much how thread life spans are being lately.

[adproduction]

The issue isn't even behaviour any more. If people want to bicker like kids, do it in PM's on the site. But derailing threads is the key issue here, not what build is best and why it's best. This isn't a discussion on what information is right to talk about or which is valid, this entire topic isn't even about the game. Stuff is getting derailed too often with certain individuals and it's becoming just an eye sore. So if people are deviating threads, saying they know their stuff because of their rating in PVP, their experiences in operations, how long they've been playing the game, then they're wasting peoples time and just making this entire forum just a bad experience. People are going to be jerks, people are going to blast people's points of views and stuff of that nature. The SWTOR forums are notoriously toxic and that's not going to go away, but at least keep the toxicity out of people's posts who want help in the game. I wouldn't mind if someone posted a thread saying "Stack cunning augs cuz it gives more crit", that's pretty much calling for a lynching but when someone asks "What utilities should I take for Rage?" and the following happens

 

 

 

^ That's pretty much how thread life spans are being lately.

 

Behavior has EVERYTHING to do with the derailments of these topics. How you conduct yourself is based on your behavior and if a person lack self-control, respect, and responsibility, they are going to derail every topic they get in. I wouldn't encourage PMing unless the two parties in disagreement are friendly with each other as it can perceived as harassment. I have had many people use PM as a forum of harassment only to get banned. So at some point these people have to stop with these mentalities and realize this is just a game and we all come on these forums with own opinions and beliefs.

 

You are right, a lot of topics can be summed up that way, but again it has a lot to do with in-group mentality and control issues. We have to agree as a community on a whole there is more than one way to play this game.

Edited July 2, 2015 by adproduction

[Luckygunslinger]

Behavior has EVERYTHING to do with the derailments of these topics. How you conduct yourself is based on your behavior and if a person lack self-control, respect, and responsibility, they are going to derail every topic they get in. I wouldn't encourage PMing unless the two parties in disagreement are friendly with each other as it can perceived as harassment. I have had many people use PM as a forum of harassment only to get banned. So at some point these people have to stop with these mentalities and realize this is just a game and we all come on these forums with own opinions and beliefs.

 

You are right, a lot of topics can be summed up that way, but again it has a lot to do with in-group mentality and control issues. We have to agree as a community on a whole there is more than one way to play this game.

 

Asking people to change who they are isn't going to work. Asking people to be who they are behind closed doors is a more optimal and realistic way of handling this issue. I would encourage PM'ing because they can hash it out, rant, scream, beg what ever outside of the public eye and if one person stops replying or ignores them, it ends at that. What doesn't help is more people hopping in and blowing it up. If people are being idiots and PM you with stupid comments and you get them banned, perfect! Maybe they'll actually learn something but people aren't going to change, it's a sad reality we must face but it's true.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Luckygunslinger

[adproduction]

Asking people to change who they are isn't going to work. Asking people to be who they are behind closed doors is a more optimal and realistic way of handling this issue. I would encourage PM'ing because they can hash it out, rant, scream, beg what ever outside of the public eye and if one person stops replying or ignores them, it ends at that. What doesn't help is more people hopping in and blowing it up. If people are being idiots and PM you with stupid comments and you get them banned, perfect! Maybe they'll actually learn something but people aren't going to change, it's a sad reality we must face but it's true.

 

All to true.

[lordbadtamaru]

I think this needs to be said and it's getting vastly out of hand. This is not a name and shame thread but this is something that needs to be addressed. Lately a lot of players have began to pick up our class because of 12x or impending expansion and they have a lot of questions in regards to rotation, gear, levelling discipline, play styles and more. They come and ask for help and some people answer which is great, I'm happy to see the community grow and have more players pick up the class.

 

How ever, lately some individuals and you know you are have been fighting and being petty and at each others throats in these threads when all the posters want is help. It's not appealing to them as new players or others looking for help or current players to be around these individuals and may be resilient towards posting in case their thread gets buried in epeen flexing and experience flaunting about this and that. It needs to be said, those of you who are fighting like children are making this sub-forum a realistically annoying and sad place to be. A new player can't even ask if they should play Vengeance for PVP without the usual suspects jumping on one another and being children. You're not hear to prove your point, you're here to help players enjoy the class, and if you can't actually be mature enough to put your rants and insults aside, maybe you should leave the forum. I admit myself I've thrown my fair share of insults but the derailing of threads needs to stop.

 

Agree for the most part, but that's capitalism. I disagree in that YES, WE ARE here to prove a point. How is our advice even RELEVANT in any way shape or form, if we aren't ready to prove that our advice works? Otherwise we become esoteric relics, driven by hearsay and drawn into random directions by unproven and untested theories. Maybe the threads where the topics have been argued are the wrong place, and I can agree with that, but the fact remains that misinformation HAS to be countered, and HAS to be rebutted. Simply put, the forums are a place not only for learning, but for discovery. Discovery requires experimentation, and experimentation requires temperance by conservatism. The mudslinging on the forum is simply an ugly facade of the simple truth that you cannot censor, or temper debate, no matter how outwardly ugly it is.

 

The whole DPS tanking debate has gotten out of hand, and we're getting to the point where certain players are twisting and misquoting other players to the point where it's becoming disgusting. It's abhorrent that when someone presents a point of view, and that point of view is not popular, then suddenly a person jumps to the idea that they are being witch hunted for having different ideas?

 

How can we as a class develop without actually challenging each others ideas? Right now, we have so called "advice" being given from all directions, from people who are both informed, and woefully misinformed. Granted, this has little bearing with a thread about which spec to pick for leveling, but the fact remains, these debates DO need to take place, and I DO think they should be public, but in their own thread.

 

SOME of these bans are going out for the right reasons, but MANY are not. Players with a poor track record on the forums will naturally be scrutinized, and if the general consensus is that a certain idea is suboptimal, returning with the same idea and not expecting opposition is a little idiotic.

 

I think a few things need to be made clear:

 

What everyone's ideas ACTUALLY are for, PVE, PVP, leveling, RP (lawl), broken down into specific types, granked, yolos, NiM, regs, blah blah blah.

 

Until we can reach a better form of codification and organization, this mudslinging is going to keep happening, because when you hand two people sticks and provoke an argument, people are gonna start swinging.

Edited July 6, 2015 by lordbadtamaru

[adproduction]

Agree for the most part, but that's capitalism. I disagree in that YES, WE ARE here to prove a point. How is our advice even RELEVANT in any way shape or form, if we aren't ready to prove that our advice works? Otherwise we become esoteric relics, driven by hearsay and drawn into random directions by unproven and untested theories.

 

Except this never never never never never happens on any message boards. The only reason we even ask for proof is so we throw that person's argument out, but that in itself is a fallacy. If the person cannot provide then it yourself. I've tried every Jedi Guardian spec including both Defensive and DPS Immortal spec so I have knowlege in that field.

 

Maybe the threads where the topics have been argued are the wrong place, and I can agree with that, but the fact remains that misinformation HAS to be countered, and HAS to be rebutted.

 

No, it hasn't and it only leads to more arguments, when you base it on opinions or have a bias agenda. Like I said in other topics, there is a grow community of people playing dps tank. When someone ask for advice on how to play a dps tank, you should give them that advice, not your opinion on you think about a build. If I came on the messageboard and ask you how to make a good Rage spec, I don't give a crap about what you think of Vengeance and why Rage suck when compared to it. You're not proving RAGE SPEC SUCKS, but you're proving to me that you are about hearing yourself talk because what your suggesting isn't what the person asked for.

 

This is essentially happens in every topic you guys go in. THE ONLY TOPICS WHERE YOU GUYS TURN INTO TURD THROWING WERE THOSE EXACT TOPICS. And you did not apologize to the topic creators and did not care for that person's topic. AND THIS GOES BACK TO CONDUCT, my list applies here because you guys haven't shown any of the qualities up there. While the topic creator may disagree on how one conducts themselves doesn't matters, but I am incline to disagree because if you don't have good conduct, even when countering an argument, the person you are speaking to, won't listen to you and they MORE INCLINE TO LISTEN TO THE PERSON YOU DON'T WANT THEM TOO.

 

Simply put, the forums are a place not only for learning, but for discovery. Discovery requires experimentation, and experimentation requires temperance by conservatism. The mudslinging on the forum is simply an ugly facade of the simple truth that you cannot censor, or temper debate, no matter how outwardly ugly it is.

 

It's for sharing ideas and opinions as well as coming to socialize and seek advice on what they ask for. It's not a place where in-group comes and tries to bump people off they disagree with. Mudslinging comes when the person gets frustrated at the other person for not joining in their in-group and way of thinking. It's like highschool with the pack mentality.

 

The whole DPS tanking debate has gotten out of hand, and we're getting to the point where certain players are twisting and misquoting other players to the point where it's becoming disgusting. It's abhorrent that when someone presents a point of view, and that point of view is not popular, then suddenly a person jumps to the idea that they are being witch hunted for having different ideas?

 

That's not actually what happening here. I've already explain up above what happens and why people starting acting the way they do. You have in-groups, they exist EVERYWHERE including on the internet. You guys come here and talk about like minded things, but when someone disagrees with you, you become frustrated and you mentality label as a problem.

 

One poster HAS ALREADY ADMITTED THAT THIS ISN'T HIS FIRST RODEO BEING RUDE TO PEOPLE and another admitted to this not being his rodeo getting banned, which let's me know that griefing people is general thing for them and they have control/anger issues. You get banned, you don't come back to kick up my dirt, they shows disregard for the rules.

 

How can we as a class develop without actually challenging each others ideas?

 

Challenge yes, but belittling no. Again, the latter has been what has been happening of the late or should I say since the beginning.

 

Right now, we have so called "advice" being given from all directions, from people who are both informed, and woefully misinformed. Granted, this has little bearing with a thread about which spec to pick for leveling, but the fact remains, these debates DO need to take place, and I DO think they should be public, but in their own thread.

 

See above and thanks for proving me right about the pack mentality.

 

SOME of these bans are going out for the right reasons, but MANY are not. Players with a poor track record on the forums will naturally be scrutinized, and if the general consensus is that a certain idea is suboptimal, returning with the same idea and not expecting opposition is a little idiotic.

 

Translation: The person I wanted to get banned, didn't get banned, but one of my pack members did so it's unfair.

 

I think a few things need to be made clear:

 

What everyone's ideas ACTUALLY are for, PVE, PVP, leveling, RP (lawl), broken down into specific types, granked, yolos, NiM, regs, blah blah blah.

 

Until we can reach a better form of codification and organization, this mudslinging is going to keep happening, because when you hand two people sticks and provoke an argument, people are gonna start swinging.

 

Mudslinging happens from those who have trouble finding different ways to confront or handle their frustrations. Everyone has disagreements, yes, but mudslinging, highjacking of topics, trashing of topics to argue, and the ostracize someone in another topic not related to the last is sign of a person with control issue and possibly anger issues. Not only did I take psychology in college, but I have been in many message boards where there in-groups and out-groups.

 

No one makes you mudsling, it done by choice. No gets another person banned, that's the choice they made by breaking the rules many many many times over. No is responsible for the behavior presented by the board members when they start behaving like this. I know because I have had to deal with people, both men and women, have little self-control. From parents to abusive spouses, they are quick to justify why they do what they do and try to paint the other person like a bad guy.

Edited July 6, 2015 by adproduction

[lordbadtamaru]

Except this never never never never never happens on any message boards. The only reason we even ask for proof is so we throw that person's argument out, but that in itself is a fallacy. If the person cannot provide then it yourself. I've tried every Jedi Guardian spec including both Defensive and DPS Immortal spec so I have knowlege in that field.

 

 

 

No, it hasn't and it only leads to more arguments, when you base it on opinions or have a bias agenda. Like I said in other topics, there is a grow community of people playing dps tank. When someone ask for advice on how to play a dps tank, you should give them that advice, not your opinion on you think about a build. If I came on the messageboard and ask you how to make a good Rage spec, I don't give a crap about what you think of Vengeance and why Rage suck when compared to it. You're not proving RAGE SPEC SUCKS, but you're proving to me that you are about hearing yourself talk because what your suggesting isn't what the person asked for.

 

This is essentially happens in every topic you guys go in. THE ONLY TOPICS WHERE YOU GUYS TURN INTO TURD THROWING WERE THOSE EXACT TOPICS. And you did not apologize to the topic creators and did not care for that person's topic. AND THIS GOES BACK TO CONDUCT, my list applies here because you guys haven't shown any of the qualities up there. While the topic creator may disagree on how one conducts themselves doesn't matters, but I am incline to disagree because if you don't have good conduct, even when countering an argument, the person you are speaking to, won't listen to you and they MORE INCLINE TO LISTEN TO THE PERSON YOU DON'T WANT THEM TOO.

 

 

 

It's for sharing ideas and opinions as well as coming to socialize and seek advice on what they ask for. It's not a place where in-group comes and tries to bump people off they disagree with. Mudslinging comes when the person gets frustrated at the other person for not joining in their in-group and way of thinking. It's like highschool with the pack mentality.

 

 

 

That's not actually what happening here. I've already explain up above what happens and why people starting acting the way they do. You have in-groups, they exist EVERYWHERE including on the internet. You guys come here and talk about like minded things, but when someone disagrees with you, you become frustrated and you mentality label as a problem.

 

One poster HAS ALREADY ADMITTED THAT THIS ISN'T HIS FIRST RODEO BEING RUDE TO PEOPLE and another admitted to this not being his rodeo getting banned, which let's me know that griefing people is general thing for them and they have control/anger issues. You get banned, you don't come back to kick up my dirt, they shows disregard for the rules.

 

 

 

Challenge yes, but belittling no. Again, the latter has been what has been happening of the late or should I say since the beginning.

 

 

 

See above and thanks for proving me right about the pack mentality.

 

 

 

Translation: The person I wanted to get banned, didn't get banned, but one of my pack members did so it's unfair.

 

 

 

Mudslinging happens from those who have trouble finding different ways to confront or handle their frustrations. Everyone has disagreements, yes, but mudslinging, highjacking of topics, trashing of topics to argue, and the ostracize someone in another topic not related to the last is sign of a person with control issue and possibly anger issues. Not only did I take psychology in college, but I have been in many message boards where there in-groups and out-groups.

 

No one makes you mudsling, it done by choice. No gets another person banned, that's the choice they made by breaking the rules many many many times over. No is responsible for the behavior presented by the board members when they start behaving like this. I know because I have had to deal with people, both men and women, have little self-control. From parents to abusive spouses, they are quick to justify why they do what they do and try to paint the other person like a bad guy.

 

You're mistaking general consensus for social groups or classes. The general HM raiding community has a general consensus, is that wrong? the general PVP community has reached a general way on how to pvp. There are differences and disagreements of course, but they aren't that significant.

 

DPS tanking itself isn't anything new, but the insinuation that it's viable in any form of high end PVP or PVE content is new, and it runs contrary to the preestablished consensus. Sorry, but if you're going to give advice to players to respec to that role, you're going to face some opposition.

[adproduction]

You're mistaking general consensus for social groups or classes. The general HM raiding community has a general consensus, is that wrong? the general PVP community has reached a general way on how to pvp. There are differences and disagreements of course, but they aren't that significant.

 

Ad populum. That's thye belief that because everyone believes it that it makes it true when it isn't. General Consensus doesn't make something true or right. 11 Million people die 70 years ago due to general consensus. People are treated like sub humans in the past and presence due to general consensus. However, general consensus has nothing to do with how people behavior towards each other. People don't act like douche bags because of general consensus, but rather this is how these people act anyway. They just use these opportunities to act like this and they have always been like this. They didn't just turn into doucebags all of a sudden, but rather this is who they have always been. And egging these people on, only serve to make them do more outrageous things. Again I went through that on another Bioware game where I had to get the authorities when one of the board member follow me to wiki and post personal information in the wiki. Just by the egging on and irresponsibility of some of the post here, it going down that same road.

 

DPS tanking itself isn't anything new, but the insinuation that it's viable in any form of high end PVP or PVE content is new, and it runs contrary to the preestablished consensus. Sorry, but if you're going to give advice to players to respec to that role, you're going to face some opposition.

 

Never said was new build. Pre-established consensus is just like general consensus as it means crap at the end of the day and the game constantly updates itself so nothing stays the same. I don't just give advice for DPS tanking, but any method of tanking or dps available to the Guardian and Juggernauts. To say Rage or Vengeance is the only way to dps is closing people off from other options.

 

And let me add based on the countless Vengeance/Vigilance guides here non-existent update to guide on Rage and Immortal, the general consensus for most players is that Vengeance/Vigilance is the only viable spec in the game. Yet, people make a big deal when you suggest dps-ing as a tank or suggesting Rage might be a good spec as Vengeance. (And I have seen fights break out over this too)

 

If this forum is for educational purpose as you claim then why is there such little information for other specs and play styles? This bring me back to this forum being run by in-groups and it needs to stop. Moreover, those people IN THOSE IN-GROUPS need to seek help for the control issues and anger issues. (As well as learning to take responsibility for their own actions)

Edited July 6, 2015 by adproduction

[Kabaal]

As a returning player myself i agree with the sentiment of this thread. I resubbed mid last week and started reading through the class forums to learn how the classes are and what builds work/don't work for PvP nowadays (I haven't played since 50 was the cap). Jugg was my main for PvP back then so this section was the first place i looked but almost every thread is full of the same names arguing over things that had nothing to do with the thread starter's questions, so much so to the point that i still haven't even logged onto that toon yet and have no plans to do so until i can be bothered sieving through all the nonsense to get to the meat and bones of the info. Instead I rolled a Guardian to reacquaint myself.

 

None of the other class forums have the problem that this one does. Sure there is the odd argument but for the most part they are constructive and a good source of learning. The Jugg section is more like a school playground.

[lordbadtamaru]

Ad populum. That's thye belief that because everyone believes it that it makes it true when it isn't. General Consensus doesn't make something true or right. 11 Million people die 70 years ago due to general consensus. People are treated like sub humans in the past and presence due to general consensus. However, general consensus has nothing to do with how people behavior towards each other. People don't act like douche bags because of general consensus, but rather this is how these people act anyway. They just use these opportunities to act like this and they have always been like this. They didn't just turn into doucebags all of a sudden, but rather this is who they have always been. And egging these people on, only serve to make them do more outrageous things. Again I went through that on another Bioware game where I had to get the authorities when one of the board member follow me to wiki and post personal information in the wiki. Just by the egging on and irresponsibility of some of the post here, it going down that same road.

 

 

 

Never said was new build. Pre-established consensus is just like general consensus as it means crap at the end of the day and the game constantly updates itself so nothing stays the same. I don't just give advice for DPS tanking, but any method of tanking or dps available to the Guardian and Juggernauts. To say Rage or Vengeance is the only way to dps is closing people off from other options.

 

And let me add based on the countless Vengeance/Vigilance guides here non-existent update to guide on Rage and Immortal, the general consensus for most players is that Vengeance/Vigilance is the only viable spec in the game. Yet, people make a big deal when you suggest dps-ing as a tank or suggesting Rage might be a good spec as Vengeance. (And I have seen fights break out over this too)

 

If this forum is for educational purpose as you claim then why is there such little information for other specs and play styles? This bring me back to this forum being run by in-groups and it needs to stop. Moreover, those people IN THOSE IN-GROUPS need to seek help for the control issues and anger issues. (As well as learning to take responsibility for their own actions)

 

Uhm, empirical evidence is not the same as a random generalization. Conclusions are reached from long term logic. These "in groups" you talk about don't exist. Guides for DPS tanking don't exist because no one runs DPS tanking in serious HM 60 progression content. There's no proof of it working, and there's little theoretical evidence, even in an isolated statistical format such as dummy parsing, so to make the argument that it's viable is simply false, until proven otherwise. Other players might be a bit more venomous about it, but you shouldn't come at people with little useful evidence and not expect them to shoot you down.

 

Additionally, the ACTUAL survivability gain from a tank specialization is limited, when not taking gear into account. You gain Warding Call, Blade Barrier, a marginal amount of defense, and armor rating from stance and the 15% talent, but lose damage in spades AND gain threat in spades, considering most of the procs for Defense occur in Soresu form, using Shii-cho would complete the shot in the foot.

 

Guardian Slash DOES hit like a truck, but that's one ability, and the rest of the damage is minimal at best. Even a 15k crit means nothing, even if it's AOE, if you do an extremely insignificant amount of damage afterwards. The only ability besides Guardian Slash that does damage would be Blade Storm which can crit for 9k in tank spec, but only once on a blue moon.

 

The game MAY constantly update itself, but you'd be kidding yourself if the game constantly flips balance up on it's head. Defense plays virtually identically to how it played pre 3.0, minus the Warding Strike mechanic. Vengeance plays virtually identically to pre 3.0, except for the addition of DoTspread. Balance in TOR, at least since 3.0, has been mostly incremental.

Edited July 6, 2015 by lordbadtamaru

[adproduction]

Uhm, empirical evidence is not the same as a random generalization.[/Quote]

 

No empirical evidence. The arguments from the opposers went from the DPS tank is garbage to the DPS tank is okay in PvP and PvE. Not only that my character went from 1-60 and did every operations. Yet, here you are claiming the board has empirical evidence that this build sucks? That's biggest lie I ever heard thus far on being on this board, but more over it is still opinion. What's worst, the goal post kept being move whenever I reach a goal or people made up new standards (Such as running a PvE event on hard mode or get 1 million in damage) I had to reach to prove this spec is good despite there being no standards. THAT'S NOT EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE THAT'S IN-GROUP BEING A BUNCH OF DOUCHEBAGS. (And tooting their own horn)

 

Conclusions are reached from long term logic.

 

See statement above. All these guys did was sit around and agree with each other opinions. That's basically what an in-group is.

 

These "in groups" you talk about don't exist.

 

They do exist because when a bunch of people who either lied about trying the build, were able to make the build to work, or hadn't try it in while that my friend is in-group trying to continue being like minded. And if you want more proof look to the topics where the same people who make the same arguments and trash the same topic un-apologically telling people not to listen to that person, making insults, and highjacking threads. YEAH YOU HAVE A MAJOR IN-GROUP PROBLEM. In fact, I think you think everyone else is stupid because the people can see for themselves what happens in these forums. I don't name call anyone first or highjack threads.

 

You must think everyone, but you is stupid to say there are no in-groups here. The same people highjack threads to starting throwing insults and be disrespectful.

 

Guides for DPS tanking don't exist because no one runs

 

Actually, they do (and you are apart of them), but you don't have any guide for ANY SPEC IN THIS FORUM EXCEPT VENGEANCE AND VIGILANCE. I LOVE HOW YOU TRY TO IGNORE MY STATEMENT TO TWIST THEM TO YOUR PLEASURE. This is what starts fights, Lord (or Grand), a person with control issue trying to play damage control and lie through his teeth. The fact that board has nothing, but Vengeance/Vigilance guide narrows down where the communities concerns are and where most of it's education lies.

 

If I had to define this community in a few words, it would be "One trick pony." There is nothing good to say about Defense/Immortal or Focus/Rage since there are no guides here for them. Other guides on the internet are outdated.

 

DPS tanking in serious HM 60 progression content.

 

1) YOU DON'T DECIDE WHAT THE GOAL IS. You're doing it right now. (a form of control) You're saying something isn't viable unless I got through [insert event] it's not viable build. THAT'S NOT EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE AND FOR SOME reason YOU THINK USING THAT WORD MAKES YOU SMART. It does not nor is it scientific fact. (You realize empirical evidence is scientifically proven right) It just YOUR OPINION as well as those agree with you. Please don't say you have to do this to qualify because again that not what empirical evidence is.

 

That's someone thinking opinion matters more than the other person. It is also this type of thinking that leads to fights.

 

2) AND I HAVE DONE JUST THAT AND I STILL CATCH HELL FOR IT. IN FACT I'M GOING THROUGH THE GAME AGAIN, BUT THIS TIME A SITH JUGGERNAUT. It's progression is roughly the same. As I said before in countless topics prior, EVEN IF THE DPS TANK COULDN'T MAKE IT THROUGH THE REMAINING 1% OF THE CONTENT, it would still be a viable build.

 

3) Science is about updating their information. THAT'S WHY SCIENCE HAS THEORIES and because this game is updated, classes nerfed, and other classes boosted, nothing in this game stays the same.

 

There's no proof of it working,

 

Except I have, as you have (as you already admitted it), and some of others. I have met dps tanks and many dps tank show up on these boards noting how far they got with the build. You know the same topics you trash.

 

and there's little theoretical evidence, even in an isolated statistical format such as dummy parsing, so to make the argument that it's viable is simply false, until proven otherwise. Other players might be a bit more venomous about it, but you shouldn't come at people with little useful evidence and not expect them to shoot you down.

 

See above where this statement falls apart. Rather than repeat myself, you can look at my previous statements as why this statement has no merit.

 

Additionally, the ACTUAL survivability gain from a tank specialization is limited, when not taking gear into account. You gain Warding Call, Blade Barrier, a marginal amount of defense, and armor rating from stance and the 15% talent, but lose damage in spades AND gain threat in spades, considering most of the procs for Defense occur in Soresu form, using Shii-cho would complete the shot in the foot.

 

See above and Shii-Cho is alternative to doing dps when a tank isn't needed.

 

Guardian Slash DOES hit like a truck, but that's one ability, and the rest of the damage is minimal at best. Even a 15k crit means nothing, even if it's AOE, if you do an extremely insignificant amount of damage afterwards. The only ability besides Guardian Slash that does damage would be Blade Storm which can crit for 9k in tank spec, but only once on a blue moon.

 

Dispatch does 6k to 9k, blade storm can do 5k to 8k, Master strike 9k to 12k, Smash 3k to 6k, and Cyclone Slash 3k critical, Aegis Assault does does 2k-3k, and sets up a riptose for 2k to a possible 3k. (All Jedi Guardian) I'm also doing a different type of DPS tanks, which focuses on power much like Rage does, and the results are positive as he hits harder when I just focused on critical and surge. The build doesn't win by outright killing you as most builds can't do that, but rather outlasting you. Vengeance is about beating the person down with back to back skill usage and Rage is about Spike damage.

 

But that's where not where the DPS tank shines, but shines in the fact that I can assume one or both roles at a given time. I can be a dps from the get go or I can be a tank from the get go. What's more I can be an off tank when the tank is taking too much heat or when the tank falls in battle. I never once died in 2 seconds of assuming tanking in any of the operations including Temple of Sacrifice on normal or any flash point on ANY MODE.

 

The game MAY constantly update itself, but you'd be kidding yourself if the game constantly flips balance up on it's head. Defense plays virtually identically to how it played pre 3.0, minus the Warding Strike mechanic. Vengeance plays virtually identically to pre 3.0, except for the addition of DoTspread. Balance in TOR, at least since 3.0, has been mostly incremental.

 

1) The game is already imbalanced class wise, as it also has too many tanks, too many healers, and too many dps. There was reason that at one point, Blizzard only had two tanks which was the Paladin and Warriors. We also don't have have anti-class or anti-skills. Generically we are the same minus the methods of gameplay. We can all dps, we have all more than one CC, and we all have more than DC. If game were meant to have balance, most of these classes wouldn't have all this as giving everyone the same thing is what made everything imbalanced.

 

2) And you've already noted a change.

 

3) Again, you've already noted a change, but you also forget that players have to regear themselves for the next expansion.

 

4) Other classes got nerfed too.

Edited July 6, 2015 by adproduction

[Lamendra]

10/10

Would read again.

[Zoom_VI]

Not only that my character went from 1-60 and did every operations. Yet, here you are claiming the board has empirical evidence that this build sucks?

You misunderstand the argument being used against you. You say you can level to 60 and do story operations with it, and because you can do those things then therefore your build is viable. Nobody is disputing that your build can do those things. What is being said is that those things are not enough. Your build can jump the low bar, but it cannot jump the high bar. The consensus on this board is that a build must be able to jump the high bar to be considered worth using.

In this case the "high bar" is the performance level of conventional specs.

 

I reach a goal or people made up new standards (Such as running a PvE event on hard mode or get 1 million in damage) I had to reach to prove this spec is good despite there being no standards. THAT'S NOT EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE THAT'S IN-GROUP BEING A BUNCH OF DOUCHEBAGS. (And tooting their own horn)

I have not read all of the recent threads to know what all has been said. But I will say this, setting benchmarks as a way to claim that a spec is "good" is a ineffective and poor way to measure a build's usefulness.

 

Viability is relative. If your build does 1 mil damage in a warzone, how much damage would a conventional build have dealt in the exact same warzone under the exact same circumstances? If a conventional build performs better in those circumstances then your build is weaker, and because it is weaker it is not something that should be exonerated.

 

 

 

See statement above. All these guys did was sit around and agree with each other opinions. That's basically what an in-group is.

If a bunch of scientists agree that Gravity is the cause of objects staying on the ground, does that inherently mean that those scientists are all part of some in-group?

 

Two people reaching the same conclusions does not in any way mean that those two people are part of some click. In fact two people drawing the same conclusion strengthens said conclusion.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[adproduction]

You misunderstand the argument being used against you.

 

Except it is not an argument, but opinion.

 

You say you can level to 60 and do story operations with it, and because you can do those things then therefore your build is viable. Nobody is disputing that your build can do those things. What is being said is that those things are not enough. Your build can jump the low bar, but it cannot jump the high bar. The consensus on this board is that a build must be able to jump the high bar to be considered worth using.

 

Once again, consensus means crap because it's like-mindness not empirical evidence. There is no low bar rather it's your opinion on what qualifies as legit. Everyone can look and the sky and think it's blue when really it's UV ray being reflecting against atmosphere as well as the gases in our atmosphere

 

In this case the "high bar" is the performance level of conventional specs.

 

See above. Why this is wrong and why consensus means crap. Also see last post where consensus falls into and what it has done.

 

I have not read all of the recent threads to know what all has been said. But I will say this, setting benchmarks as a way to claim that a spec is "good" is a ineffective and poor way to measure a build's usefulness.

 

Something that has been done by the person was just talking in the last post as well as many other people. What's worse when I meet said benchmark, a new benchmark is made as means to keep the ball rolling.

 

Viability is relative. If your build does 1 mil damage in a warzone, how much damage would a conventional build have dealt in the exact same warzone under the exact same circumstances? If a conventional build performs better in those circumstances then your build is weaker, and because it is weaker it is not something that should be exonerated.

 

As I said before about class balance, some classes (and specs) do it better. Vigilance/Vengeance is a dps spec so it excel at that and it's no surprise. I never argue that Vigilance or Rage were weaker than DPS tanking. I argued that DPS tanking is just as viable in PvP as any other build. Rydarus only argument, which is based on his opinion, that it was viable, but he rather play a more traditional spec that specializes at it. That's all fine an good, he is entitled to his opinion and allowed to engage in his own playing style, but that's not empirical evidence that the build sucks or is bad to use. Most builds don't get million and still do just fine.

 

Many times when a build can up to 600k or more, it's because either the team is bad or someone had a healer helping them. Ditto with a healer getting a 1 million in heals as the team was bad or they had a really good teammates ward off attacks.

 

If a bunch of scientists agree that Gravity is the cause of objects staying on the ground, does that inherently mean that those scientists are all part of some in-group?

 

See consensus. Also not scientists think or believe in the same thing. Some have come to their own conclusion through testing. Hell, our math system is not universal as we use different methods of calculating numbers. Also science continuously updates it's findings. They don't just do one experiment and believe this is how it works. Playing a DPS tank around 2.8 doesn't not means it will continue to play the same beyond that patch. Also playing a dps tank for a brief moment and not being very good at it, does not say a lot about the dps tank.

 

In-groups are normally social group, who make themselves exclusive by holding certain beliefs or traditions, making it for other people to join said group. Basically, a group of people who are snobs. (no insult) In-groups tend to have us vs. you mentality. They see you as threat when go against what they know or non-existent authority. A better example of an in-group is church and the existing in-groups within church. (Yes, church is an in-group with an even inner-group within it)

 

Two people reaching the same conclusions does not in any way mean that those two people are part of some click. In fact two people drawing the same conclusion strengthens said conclusion.

 

Yet, I and other people are find this build fun, but more over I have gotten far with it? It basically means they might want to retest their findings before concluding it is blasphemy.

Edited July 7, 2015 by adproduction

[Zoom_VI]

Except it is not an argument, but opinion.

Opinion would be what gear looks the best or what class is the most fun to play as such things are subjective.

The performance of builds is objective and not only that is fully quantifiable.

 

 

 

Once again, consensus means crap because it's like-mindness not empirical evidence. There is no low bar rather it's your opinion on what qualifies as legit. Everyone can look and the sky and think it's blue when really it's UV ray being reflecting against atmosphere as well as the gases in our atmosphere

In order for any two people to compare any two objects/processes/ideas they must first define a system to which they can measure said objects/processes/ideas. Defining such a measurement system requires coming to a consensus.

You have challenged the accepted system of measurement which means you are going to face opposition, if you want to prove your idea of viability is a better way you must be able to find direct non-subjective fault in the conventional system, and then prove how your system is better.

 

Also can we please stop going on about "empirical evidence." All of the evidence I have seen in the recent threads from both sides has been either anecdotal accounts or informal logic. That doesn't mean empirical evidence on the subject doesn't exist, but rather that nobody has brought forth any.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now I will say this. For the content that you adproduction do, i.e unranked PvP, leveling content, and previous tier SM ops content, your DPS tank build is workable and useable. Now I would not say it is optimal in those areas but it is functional.

However you must realize that your build fails to be viable in higher levels of content that you, adproduction, do not do. The DTPS you would take trying to bring your DPS tank into HM ToS, HM Rav, or in team ranked would be too high to heal.

The people that are the most prolific in opposing you are all people that do content at the aforementioned high-level. They say it is non-viable because at their level they would get destroyed trying to use your build.

 

If must continue pushing your DPS tank onto everyone coming in for advice you must start prefacing the areas of the content your build cannot do. The reason you have faced so much vehement opposition is because so far you have gone into threads with a manner and tone that imply that your build is universally viable.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[adproduction]

Opinion would be what gear looks the best or what class is the most fun to play as such things are subjective. The performance of builds is objective and not only that is fully quantifiable.

 

Performance of a build is subjective unless there is set standard, which bring me to.

 

In order for any two people to compare any two objects/processes/ideas they must first define a system to which they can measure said objects/processes/ideas. Defining such a measurement system requires coming to a consensus.

 

Finding a end result and a group of people that create a set of requirements are two different things. Getting a million points doesn't objectively say I am good because I got a million points for a number of reasons nor is it going to cause a special event to happen. We aren't going to get a

moment for reaching a million. If it did then we have some kind of objective standard. Empirical evidence is based on doing said situation and get a result. Objective results are based on the end results, not a standard that has to be met.

 

With that being said, a group of people saying that doing [insert action] determines how good you are again is subjective. Business/jobs have their own qualifications as to what they look for in their employees. Same with school grading standards in each state.

 

You have challenged the accepted system of measurement which means you are going to face opposition, if you want to prove your idea of viability is a better way you must be able to find direct non-subjective fault in the conventional system, and then prove how your system is better.

 

Never said it was better and again read up on what I said about consensus as well as it is based on. Again, the measurement/standard is subjective unless there is object result.

 

Also can we please stop going on about "empirical evidence." All of the evidence I have seen in the recent threads from both sides has been either anecdotal accounts or informal logic. That doesn't mean empirical evidence on the subject doesn't exist, but rather that nobody has brought forth any.

 

I have with pictures.

 

Now I will say this. For the content that you adproduction do, i.e unranked PvP, leveling content, and previous tier SM ops content, your DPS tank build is workable and useable. Now I would not say it is optimal in those areas but it is functional.

 

And that what I was saying.

 

However you must realize that your build fails to be viable in higher levels of content that you, adproduction, do not do. The DTPS you would take trying to bring your DPS tank into HM ToS, HM Rav, or in team ranked would be too high to heal.

 

I did a ranked match and I have yet to do Hard Mode on ToS, but did it normal mode. I can't remember if I did HM Rav, but it won't matter as I get to end game again with my Sith Juggernaut, I'll try my hand at both again.

 

The people that are the most prolific in opposing you are all people that do content at the aforementioned high-level. They say it is non-viable because at their level they would get destroyed trying to use your build

 

We were all at level 60 and I have been through nearly all the content including ranked pvp. -_-

 

Ranked PvP isn't much different from low level pvp from experience. Ditto with Hard Mode and greater difficulty on FPs and Ops.

 

If must continue pushing your DPS tank onto everyone coming in for advice you must start prefacing the areas of the content your build cannot do. The reason you have faced so much vehement opposition is because so far you have gone into threads with a manner and tone that imply that your build is universally viable.

 

See past post, I don't push my build anyone who isn't already doing themselves or looking for a dps build to play. However, when it comes to the latter, I also make sure to include Vengeance/Vigilance and Rage/Focus. There are no problems until someone post advice on DPS tanking. At which point, they highjack the threat and insult start.

 

And, they are just in opposition as noted in the previous post. It also doesn't excuse the behavior.

Edited July 7, 2015 by adproduction

[lordbadtamaru]

Empirical evidence is everywhere. It takes 2 seconds to look at the yolo leaderboards, examine progression on classes and specs, and look up parses.

 

Vengeance is parsing a 5.1 (ish). I have yet to see someone do a parse with a Defense Guardian that did more than 2.5k on a dummy. I'm positive 3k is possible, but I haven't seen it.

 

Examine the facts:

 

No Guardian DPS tanks have killed Revan HM

 

No Focus Guardians / Rage Juggs have killed Revan HM

 

2, maybe 3 or 4, Vengeance Juggs / Vigilance Guardians have Revan HM kills.

 

To date I have not heard of a Defense Guardian in DPS gear in the top 96 for Solo OR Group Ranked

 

I have yet to see a single Defense Guardian or Immortal Juggernaut break 1.5 mil damage, OR more importantly, break 2k DPS, or even 1.5k DPS, in a warzone ever. A DPS tank would be viable if it did both moderately well, except, it doesn't. At all. It's infinitely inferior in damage, and barely superior in survivability, it's only advantage over Vengeance is a mediocre cooldown, but the loss of a short cooldown, and higher passive DR, and guard, but that just means anyone with a brain will aoe pressure and kill you both.

 

You can't actually say a build is viable for all content if it isn't actually viable for all content. Extrapolating that it "works" for leveling so it must work for everything makes no sense. That's like saying a heavyweight beat up a 12 year old so therefore he must be fine at beating heavyweights. That's a logical fallacy.

 

Somewhat decent evidence (though at risk of Ad grasping at straws, pure damage usually is more of a factor of high enemy healing than anything else in the case of matches with low kills but high damage)

 

PVP Imagespam let's go!

 

http://i.imgur.com/wem8fGH.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/PbYaUJq.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/Gi3nQz5.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/sO8l0GO.png

 

http://i.imgur.com/aQasN9j.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/qWnnGue.png

 

http://i.imgur.com/LU07uw6.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/1dDesIQ.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/C4FsLsZ.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/dPCCJwV.jpg

[adproduction]

Zoom, you were making some good points there. I was listening to you, but empirical evidence leads to a conclusion. A person who makes a million points in a game no matter their class or spec, is not empirical evidence this the class or spec is good, but the player is good. Even then it may not even say that because we have to consider other factors such as the playing styles of other players.

 

Not having done something is not proof of something, but as you pointed out something that has yet to be done. Sadly, even after I do it, the pre-existing in-group will still do the same thing. As I said in my previous post, no one makes them misbehave, as they were already jerks from the get go. The community will continue to go down the crap so long as there no ever present moderator to stop enforce the correct behavior.

[Zoom_VI]

Empirical Data

[Zoom_VI]

I did a ranked match and I have yet to do Hard Mode on ToS, but did it normal mode. I can't remember if I did HM Rav, but it won't matter as I get to end game again with my Sith Juggernaut, I'll try my hand at both again.

 

You don't need to attempt to do HM Rav or ToS. The damage output and damage types of all of the boss fights are well known. Theorycrafters have been able to accurately model a tank's DTPS for years now. It's not rocket science to figure out the DTPS a DPS geared defense guardian would be subjected to while doing HM operations.

 

 

 

Ranked PvP isn't much different from low level pvp from experience.

I don't think you have done much with ranked, or rather team ranked. Solo ranked may be glorified regs, but team ranked is a entirely different beast, and I can say that from having played in every single season to date.

[adproduction]

Empirical Data

 

I don't know why you posted this and I didn't look at it. You either did to be sarcastic or some other reason. I know what empirical data is, but just observing something doesn't tell you about something unless it has end result. As I said, a million points wouldn't say a class or spec is good, but that player is good. If there is a standard for a class/spec being good there is also a standard for a class/spec being bad.

 

You don't need to attempt to do HM Rav or ToS. The damage output and damage types of all of the boss fights are well known. Theorycrafters have been able to accurately model a tank's DTPS for years now. It's not rocket science to figure out the DTPS a DPS geared defense guardian would be subjected to while doing HM operations.

 

I plan to do those two operations again as a dps tank anyway so that will be moot.

 

I don't think you have done much with ranked, or rather team ranked. Solo ranked may be glorified regs, but team ranked is a entirely different beast, and I can say that from having played in every single season to date.

 

Play one ranked game as a DPS tank and Rydarus here did some as well so it works. I did several matches as a vigilance didn't see much of a difference in performance in ranked then I did in normal game. Ebon Hawk server doesn't have many ranked matches and most players have noted in game and out, Ranked PvP is pretty dead. Same stuff happened with the arena in WoW so I don't put much merit in basing if my class is good or not through that due to it's incredibly low traffic. (3 hour or greater queues to do a match)

Edited July 7, 2015 by adproduction

[Luckygunslinger]

Thread is made about thread derailment, gets derailed. You really can't make this bantha dung up.