Same ideas we have for a while. - Fix the class (including spec) and give them purpose. - Give them new moves so we can feel like actual Force Users. - A force pull instead of taunts. However, we know bioware won't do any of this.

Soooooo This.

I don't know why you posted this and I didn't look at it. You either did to be sarcastic or some other reason. I know what empirical data is, but just observing something doesn't tell you about something unless it has end result. As I said, a million points wouldn't say a class or spec is good, but that player is good. If there is a standard for a class/spec being good there is also a standard for a class/spec being bad. I plan to do those two operations again as a dps tank anyway so that will be moot. Play one ranked game as a DPS tank and Rydarus here did some as well so it works. I did several matches as a vigilance didn't see much of a difference in performance in ranked then I did in normal game. Ebon Hawk server doesn't have many ranked matches and most players have noted in game and out, Ranked PvP is pretty dead. Same stuff happened with the arena in WoW so I don't put much merit in basing if my class is good or not through that due to it's incredibly low traffic. (3 hour or greater queues to do a match)

Zoom, you were making some good points there. I was listening to you, but empirical evidence leads to a conclusion. A person who makes a million points in a game no matter their class or spec, is not empirical evidence this the class or spec is good, but the player is good. Even then it may not even say that because we have to consider other factors such as the playing styles of other players. Not having done something is not proof of something, but as you pointed out something that has yet to be done. Sadly, even after I do it, the pre-existing in-group will still do the same thing. As I said in my previous post, no one makes them misbehave, as they were already jerks from the get go. The community will continue to go down the crap so long as there no ever present moderator to stop enforce the correct behavior.

Performance of a build is subjective unless there is set standard, which bring me to. Finding a end result and a group of people that create a set of requirements are two different things. Getting a million points doesn't objectively say I am good because I got a million points for a number of reasons nor is it going to cause a special event to happen. We aren't going to get a moment for reaching a million. If it did then we have some kind of objective standard. Empirical evidence is based on doing said situation and get a result. Objective results are based on the end results, not a standard that has to be met. With that being said, a group of people saying that doing [insert action] determines how good you are again is subjective. Business/jobs have their own qualifications as to what they look for in their employees. Same with school grading standards in each state. Never said it was better and again read up on what I said about consensus as well as it is based on. Again, the measurement/standard is subjective unless there is object result. I have with pictures. And that what I was saying. I did a ranked match and I have yet to do Hard Mode on ToS, but did it normal mode. I can't remember if I did HM Rav, but it won't matter as I get to end game again with my Sith Juggernaut, I'll try my hand at both again. We were all at level 60 and I have been through nearly all the content including ranked pvp. -_- Ranked PvP isn't much different from low level pvp from experience. Ditto with Hard Mode and greater difficulty on FPs and Ops. See past post, I don't push my build anyone who isn't already doing themselves or looking for a dps build to play. However, when it comes to the latter, I also make sure to include Vengeance/Vigilance and Rage/Focus. There are no problems until someone post advice on DPS tanking. At which point, they highjack the threat and insult start. And, they are just in opposition as noted in the previous post. It also doesn't excuse the behavior.

Except it is not an argument, but opinion. Once again, consensus means crap because it's like-mindness not empirical evidence. There is no low bar rather it's your opinion on what qualifies as legit. Everyone can look and the sky and think it's blue when really it's UV ray being reflecting against atmosphere as well as the gases in our atmosphere See above. Why this is wrong and why consensus means crap. Also see last post where consensus falls into and what it has done. Something that has been done by the person was just talking in the last post as well as many other people. What's worse when I meet said benchmark, a new benchmark is made as means to keep the ball rolling. As I said before about class balance, some classes (and specs) do it better. Vigilance/Vengeance is a dps spec so it excel at that and it's no surprise. I never argue that Vigilance or Rage were weaker than DPS tanking. I argued that DPS tanking is just as viable in PvP as any other build. Rydarus only argument, which is based on his opinion, that it was viable, but he rather play a more traditional spec that specializes at it. That's all fine an good, he is entitled to his opinion and allowed to engage in his own playing style, but that's not empirical evidence that the build sucks or is bad to use. Most builds don't get million and still do just fine. Many times when a build can up to 600k or more, it's because either the team is bad or someone had a healer helping them. Ditto with a healer getting a 1 million in heals as the team was bad or they had a really good teammates ward off attacks. See consensus. Also not scientists think or believe in the same thing. Some have come to their own conclusion through testing. Hell, our math system is not universal as we use different methods of calculating numbers. Also science continuously updates it's findings. They don't just do one experiment and believe this is how it works. Playing a DPS tank around 2.8 doesn't not means it will continue to play the same beyond that patch. Also playing a dps tank for a brief moment and not being very good at it, does not say a lot about the dps tank. In-groups are normally social group, who make themselves exclusive by holding certain beliefs or traditions, making it for other people to join said group. Basically, a group of people who are snobs. (no insult) In-groups tend to have us vs. you mentality. They see you as threat when go against what they know or non-existent authority. A better example of an in-group is church and the existing in-groups within church. (Yes, church is an in-group with an even inner-group within it) Yet, I and other people are find this build fun, but more over I have gotten far with it? It basically means they might want to retest their findings before concluding it is blasphemy.

You really don't need either of them as range dps is fine making commando, gunslinger, and sniper better options. The only reason you even want a melee in your group is because they are your friend. It cost a group less money and time taking a near all range operations than it does melee for the simple fact that a melee is more likely to die in raid/boss battles. Juggernaut only saving grace is their tanking, but then other classes like the Assassin/Shadow and Vanguard/Power Tech can do that too, making them more obsolete. Believe it or not, a lot of Arms and Berserk warriors found themselves in this position as well as Retribution Paladin and Rogues are one point in WoW. Other games have had the same problem with raid groups when it came to melee including DDO.

He's sort of right because at this point, there aren't going to be any changes made. This expansion is just another money grab.

See statement above. All these guys did was sit around and agree with each other opinions. That's basically what an in-group is. They do exist because when a bunch of people who either lied about trying the build, were able to make the build to work, or hadn't try it in while that my friend is in-group trying to continue being like minded. And if you want more proof look to the topics where the same people who make the same arguments and trash the same topic un-apologically telling people not to listen to that person, making insults, and highjacking threads. YEAH YOU HAVE A MAJOR IN-GROUP PROBLEM. In fact, I think you think everyone else is stupid because the people can see for themselves what happens in these forums. I don't name call anyone first or highjack threads. You must think everyone, but you is stupid to say there are no in-groups here. The same people highjack threads to starting throwing insults and be disrespectful. Actually, they do (and you are apart of them), but you don't have any guide for ANY SPEC IN THIS FORUM EXCEPT VENGEANCE AND VIGILANCE. I LOVE HOW YOU TRY TO IGNORE MY STATEMENT TO TWIST THEM TO YOUR PLEASURE. This is what starts fights, Lord (or Grand), a person with control issue trying to play damage control and lie through his teeth. The fact that board has nothing, but Vengeance/Vigilance guide narrows down where the communities concerns are and where most of it's education lies. If I had to define this community in a few words, it would be "One trick pony." There is nothing good to say about Defense/Immortal or Focus/Rage since there are no guides here for them. Other guides on the internet are outdated. 1) YOU DON'T DECIDE WHAT THE GOAL IS. You're doing it right now. (a form of control) You're saying something isn't viable unless I got through [insert event] it's not viable build. THAT'S NOT EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE AND FOR SOME reason YOU THINK USING THAT WORD MAKES YOU SMART. It does not nor is it scientific fact. (You realize empirical evidence is scientifically proven right) It just YOUR OPINION as well as those agree with you. Please don't say you have to do this to qualify because again that not what empirical evidence is. That's someone thinking opinion matters more than the other person. It is also this type of thinking that leads to fights. 2) AND I HAVE DONE JUST THAT AND I STILL CATCH HELL FOR IT. IN FACT I'M GOING THROUGH THE GAME AGAIN, BUT THIS TIME A SITH JUGGERNAUT. It's progression is roughly the same. As I said before in countless topics prior, EVEN IF THE DPS TANK COULDN'T MAKE IT THROUGH THE REMAINING 1% OF THE CONTENT, it would still be a viable build. 3) Science is about updating their information. THAT'S WHY SCIENCE HAS THEORIES and because this game is updated, classes nerfed, and other classes boosted, nothing in this game stays the same. Except I have, as you have (as you already admitted it), and some of others. I have met dps tanks and many dps tank show up on these boards noting how far they got with the build. You know the same topics you trash. See above where this statement falls apart. Rather than repeat myself, you can look at my previous statements as why this statement has no merit. See above and Shii-Cho is alternative to doing dps when a tank isn't needed. Dispatch does 6k to 9k, blade storm can do 5k to 8k, Master strike 9k to 12k, Smash 3k to 6k, and Cyclone Slash 3k critical, Aegis Assault does does 2k-3k, and sets up a riptose for 2k to a possible 3k. (All Jedi Guardian) I'm also doing a different type of DPS tanks, which focuses on power much like Rage does, and the results are positive as he hits harder when I just focused on critical and surge. The build doesn't win by outright killing you as most builds can't do that, but rather outlasting you. Vengeance is about beating the person down with back to back skill usage and Rage is about Spike damage. But that's where not where the DPS tank shines, but shines in the fact that I can assume one or both roles at a given time. I can be a dps from the get go or I can be a tank from the get go. What's more I can be an off tank when the tank is taking too much heat or when the tank falls in battle. I never once died in 2 seconds of assuming tanking in any of the operations including Temple of Sacrifice on normal or any flash point on ANY MODE. 1) The game is already imbalanced class wise, as it also has too many tanks, too many healers, and too many dps. There was reason that at one point, Blizzard only had two tanks which was the Paladin and Warriors. We also don't have have anti-class or anti-skills. Generically we are the same minus the methods of gameplay. We can all dps, we have all more than one CC, and we all have more than DC. If game were meant to have balance, most of these classes wouldn't have all this as giving everyone the same thing is what made everything imbalanced. 2) And you've already noted a change. 3) Again, you've already noted a change, but you also forget that players have to regear themselves for the next expansion. 4) Other classes got nerfed too.

The only solution is refund the players the money they put into the stronghold.

Ad populum. That's thye belief that because everyone believes it that it makes it true when it isn't. General Consensus doesn't make something true or right. 11 Million people die 70 years ago due to general consensus. People are treated like sub humans in the past and presence due to general consensus. However, general consensus has nothing to do with how people behavior towards each other. People don't act like douche bags because of general consensus, but rather this is how these people act anyway. They just use these opportunities to act like this and they have always been like this. They didn't just turn into doucebags all of a sudden, but rather this is who they have always been. And egging these people on, only serve to make them do more outrageous things. Again I went through that on another Bioware game where I had to get the authorities when one of the board member follow me to wiki and post personal information in the wiki. Just by the egging on and irresponsibility of some of the post here, it going down that same road. Never said was new build. Pre-established consensus is just like general consensus as it means crap at the end of the day and the game constantly updates itself so nothing stays the same. I don't just give advice for DPS tanking, but any method of tanking or dps available to the Guardian and Juggernauts. To say Rage or Vengeance is the only way to dps is closing people off from other options. And let me add based on the countless Vengeance/Vigilance guides here non-existent update to guide on Rage and Immortal, the general consensus for most players is that Vengeance/Vigilance is the only viable spec in the game. Yet, people make a big deal when you suggest dps-ing as a tank or suggesting Rage might be a good spec as Vengeance. (And I have seen fights break out over this too) If this forum is for educational purpose as you claim then why is there such little information for other specs and play styles? This bring me back to this forum being run by in-groups and it needs to stop. Moreover, those people IN THOSE IN-GROUPS need to seek help for the control issues and anger issues. (As well as learning to take responsibility for their own actions)

Here's a Rage link discussion here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=815833 A video on the possibilities of what you can do. A video on rotation and possible gear. A slightly outdated Rage guide... http://dulfy.net/2014/12/11/swtor-3-0-rage-juggernaut-dps-guide-by-artorias/ A Rage guild should have a lot of Surge (80% or greater), maybe 100% Accuracy if you can or a little Alacrity in place of it if you cannot get 100% accuracy. Everything else should be power. You can probably get away with 18% to 20% critical chance.

Except this never never never never never happens on any message boards. The only reason we even ask for proof is so we throw that person's argument out, but that in itself is a fallacy. If the person cannot provide then it yourself. I've tried every Jedi Guardian spec including both Defensive and DPS Immortal spec so I have knowlege in that field. No, it hasn't and it only leads to more arguments, when you base it on opinions or have a bias agenda. Like I said in other topics, there is a grow community of people playing dps tank. When someone ask for advice on how to play a dps tank, you should give them that advice, not your opinion on you think about a build. If I came on the messageboard and ask you how to make a good Rage spec, I don't give a crap about what you think of Vengeance and why Rage suck when compared to it. You're not proving RAGE SPEC SUCKS, but you're proving to me that you are about hearing yourself talk because what your suggesting isn't what the person asked for. This is essentially happens in every topic you guys go in. THE ONLY TOPICS WHERE YOU GUYS TURN INTO TURD THROWING WERE THOSE EXACT TOPICS. And you did not apologize to the topic creators and did not care for that person's topic. AND THIS GOES BACK TO CONDUCT, my list applies here because you guys haven't shown any of the qualities up there. While the topic creator may disagree on how one conducts themselves doesn't matters, but I am incline to disagree because if you don't have good conduct, even when countering an argument, the person you are speaking to, won't listen to you and they MORE INCLINE TO LISTEN TO THE PERSON YOU DON'T WANT THEM TOO. It's for sharing ideas and opinions as well as coming to socialize and seek advice on what they ask for. It's not a place where in-group comes and tries to bump people off they disagree with. Mudslinging comes when the person gets frustrated at the other person for not joining in their in-group and way of thinking. It's like highschool with the pack mentality. That's not actually what happening here. I've already explain up above what happens and why people starting acting the way they do. You have in-groups, they exist EVERYWHERE including on the internet. You guys come here and talk about like minded things, but when someone disagrees with you, you become frustrated and you mentality label as a problem. One poster HAS ALREADY ADMITTED THAT THIS ISN'T HIS FIRST RODEO BEING RUDE TO PEOPLE and another admitted to this not being his rodeo getting banned, which let's me know that griefing people is general thing for them and they have control/anger issues. You get banned, you don't come back to kick up my dirt, they shows disregard for the rules. Challenge yes, but belittling no. Again, the latter has been what has been happening of the late or should I say since the beginning. See above and thanks for proving me right about the pack mentality. Translation: The person I wanted to get banned, didn't get banned, but one of my pack members did so it's unfair. Mudslinging happens from those who have trouble finding different ways to confront or handle their frustrations. Everyone has disagreements, yes, but mudslinging, highjacking of topics, trashing of topics to argue, and the ostracize someone in another topic not related to the last is sign of a person with control issue and possibly anger issues. Not only did I take psychology in college, but I have been in many message boards where there in-groups and out-groups. No one makes you mudsling, it done by choice. No gets another person banned, that's the choice they made by breaking the rules many many many times over. No is responsible for the behavior presented by the board members when they start behaving like this. I know because I have had to deal with people, both men and women, have little self-control. From parents to abusive spouses, they are quick to justify why they do what they do and try to paint the other person like a bad guy.

1) Wait what? I know how aggro works. I'm talking about UNLOADING. Basically, hitting a person with one move after the other. This is what a Sniper can do and this is what a Vengeance/Vigilance does as a part of their gameplay. Unless you hold back, you can easily grab aggro due to miscalculation or being too aggressive, but if you hold back too much you aren't doing too much damage. In other words, a Vigilance with high alacrity and does 3k per attack (for the sake of argument) against Focus spec does 6k per attack with no alacrity is going to grab more aggro than the latter unless he/she paces him/herself. The only way a person with low surge can do more damage is back to back fast attack. 2) This is interfering with your rotation especially as you put more alacrity on your character as going from 0 alacrity to 10% can really throw you off. It will take a lot of practice to adjust not only to the speed of rotation, but speed vs. player movement. Something I found especially as I put more and more alacrity on as a Vigilance.