[PvP 3.0+] Jedi Guardian - Defense (Tank)

[Loken_Darksoul]

Hello fellow Guardian / Juggernaut players,

 

I'm getting more and more into PvP with my Guardian. And I have to say, I have some questions about it. Since I'm

used to play as a Tank in PvE (and I like it) I want to play as a Tank in PvP too. There are great guids for PvE @Dulfy,

but can't find a good one for PvP.

 

My guess, it is similar to PvE, but with some changes ...

 

Onto my questions:

 

- What should I aim for? (Stats)

For PvE its Defense > Shield > Absorb, but for PvP? I guess it is HP > Shield = Absorb > Defense, but what %?

 

- What arguments are best suited for it?

There are some to choose from. End/Str or Power/Absorb? What about Alacrity for a tank? Worth it?

 

- What kind of Relics are considered better?

Sure I know, I'm not a DPS, but the "Bubble" has 40sec CD and Absorb isn't the best for PvP. Why bother and just

take the Main-Stat / Power and have some "burst"?

 

- What Discipline Utilities are best for PvP-Tanks?

Right now I use as follow:

Current build

Are there better ones? Or "what you prefer"?

 

Any help / suggestions are welcome.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Loken_Darksoul

[Lamendra]

10 bucks says you're gonna get a "dps gear" answer.

[Loken_Darksoul]

10 bucks says you're gonna get a "dps gear" answer.

 

LOL, I hope not.

 

Sure more damage would be nice (had a crazy idea about it), but I guess it isn't worth in the long run.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Loken_Darksoul

[Lamendra]

LOL, I hope not.

 

Sure more damage would be nice (had a crazy idea about it), but I guess it isn't worth in the long run.

 

Heh, just wait. Give it a few hours, I'm sure our dps tank buddy will be right along anytime now.

[adproduction]

Hello fellow Guardian / Juggernaut players,

 

I'm getting more and more into PvP with my Guardian. And I have to say, I have some questions about it. Since I'm

used to play as a Tank in PvE (and I like it) I want to play as a Tank in PvP too. There are great guids for PvE @Dulfy,

but can't find a good one for PvP.

 

My guess, it is similar to PvE, but with some changes ...

 

Onto my questions:

 

- What should I aim for? (Stats)

For PvE its Defense > Shield > Absorb, but for PvP? I guess it is HP > Shield = Absorb > Defense, but what %?

 

- What arguments are best suited for it?

There are some to choose from. End/Str or Power/Absorb? What about Alacrity for a tank? Worth it?

 

- What kind of Relics are considered better?

Sure I know, I'm not a DPS, but the "Bubble" has 40sec CD and Absorb isn't the best for PvP. Why bother and just

take the Main-Stat / Power and have some "burst"?

 

- What Discipline Utilities are best for PvP-Tanks?

Right now I use as follow:

Current build

Are there better ones? Or "what you prefer"?

 

Any help / suggestions are welcome.

 

Answers you'll find here.

 

http://dulfy.net/2014/12/11/swtor-3-0-defense-guardian-tanking-guide-by-artorias/

 

and a video here.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3OuJ_5DAUk

[Loken_Darksoul]

Answers you'll find here.

 

http://dulfy.net/2014/12/11/swtor-3-0-defense-guardian-tanking-guide-by-artorias/

 

and a video here.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3OuJ_5DAUk

 

I'm aware of this Guide, but it's primarily for PvE.

[adproduction]

I'm aware of this Guide, but it's primarily for PvE.

 

Oh, I thought i was PvE you were looking for. I would think PvP would be too different as I was heavy Shield/Absorb than Defense when I did main tank in PvP.

Edited June 30, 2015 by adproduction

[Lamendra]

Right on schedule, even if it was not the answer I was expecting. Reading comprehension though...I think me point is still valid.

[adproduction]

Right on schedule, even if it was not the answer I was expecting. Reading comprehension though...I think me point is still valid.

 

1) Except you said "give him a few hours" and I did it in a few minutes so no.

 

2) Probably because I took a bit of time to skim through the post. Why I would suggest a DPS tank post when the man is clearly asking for a main tank gear? You act like you know me but you don't. You're just picking a childish fight. Another person trying to jump on the bandwagon.

 

3) Well...

Edited June 30, 2015 by adproduction

[Lamendra]

The no one cares video I am bookmarking. Thanks boss, and wasn't my intent to pick any fights. Just thought you were going to chime in with your preferred tank setup. I got nothing against you. Just figured you would be perusing the thread due to the title of the post. And I was right. Edited June 30, 2015 by Lamendra

[phalczen]

A lot of people recommend using B-mods, Fortitude augments, and maybe even high-endurance enhancements when they gear their pvp tank because what kills the tank in pvp is burst damage (in arenas, the burst is often accomplished via "tunneling" the tank.) Furthermore, shield becomes far more important than defense because the preponderance of player attacks are Force/Tech and many classes have auto-crit abilities either in their discipline or from set bonuses, and there are more frequent internal/elemental attacks which cannot be defended or shielded. Defensive secondary stats become much less important when there is very little white damage coming at you.

 

Power and strength will increase the amount that Focused Defense heals you, or damage that Blade Barricade absorbs, but in the end, its the "end" (i.e. endurance) that seems to matter the most. That's the advice I've gleaned from my reading and it seems to work on my guardian in regs (haven't tried him in rwz). It helps to fool the enemy as well because many people simply look at health pools to decide if someone is wearing pve or pvp gear.

Edited June 30, 2015 by phalczen

[adproduction]

A lot of people recommend using B-mods, Fortitude augments, and maybe even high-endurance enhancements when they gear their pvp tank because what kills the tank in pvp is burst damage (in arenas, the burst is often accomplished via "tunneling" the tank.) Furthermore, shield becomes far more important than defense because the preponderance of player attacks are Force/Tech and many classes have auto-crit abilities either in their discipline or from set bonuses, and there are more frequent internal/elemental attacks which cannot be defended or shielded. Defensive secondary stats become much less important when there is very little white damage coming at you.

 

Power and strength will increase the amount that Focused Defense heals you, or damage that Blade Barricade absorbs, but in the end, its the "end" (i.e. endurance) that seems to matter the most. That's the advice I've gleaned from my reading and it seems to work on my guardian in regs (haven't tried him in rwz). It helps to fool the enemy as well because many people simply look at health pools to decide if someone is wearing pve or pvp gear.

 

1) Burst damage is bad against anyone. I think you mean AOE Burst damage because you can't protect anyone when they also getting hit by the same damage as yourself.

 

2) Which is what I pointed out in other topics when I note that PvP tanking is dead due to the amount critical hits in the game and unavoidable attacks.

 

3) For any tank, Endurance is the only good reliable defense against anything.

 

Thanks boss, and wasn't my intent to pick any fights. Just thought you were going to chime in with your preferred tank setup.

 

These two sentences alone show you're a liar and instigator. Both of these sentence contradict your motives. Why the hell are trying to pretend that wasn't attention in the first place when second sentence debunks that whole idea? You don't think anything through do you?

 

I got nothing against you. Just figured you would be perusing the thread due to the title of the post. And I was right.

 

You do, else you wouldn't have made any sharky comments. You're not clever and you're probably like this in real life as your mouth gets into a lot of trouble. Remind us against how many people have had to bail you out of situations, if you didn't deflect/run from them first.

 

And no, you weren't because I go to other topics too so that's pretty much a moot point. In fact, the poster first post was read before yours. Again, your last sentence contradicts the fact you were trying to pick a fight. Seriously, what drugs are you doing?

Edited July 1, 2015 by adproduction

[Lamendra]

Relax boss.

[adproduction]

Relax boss.

 

*Throws popcorn at you*

[Loken_Darksoul]

Could we please stay on topic?

 

Any suggestions / ideas about the Relics / Augs or Utilities and Stats for PvP tanking?

[Zoom_VI]

Could we please stay on topic?

 

Any suggestions / ideas about the Relics / Augs or Utilities and Stats for PvP tanking?

 

Shield Amplification and Reactive Warding are BiS for PvP in terms of mitigation. Augments will still be full endurance augs for the forseeable future. You don't take any defense rating. Everything should be shield/absorb.

[Zoom_VI]

A lot of people recommend using B-mods, Fortitude augments, and maybe even high-endurance enhancements when they gear their pvp tank because what kills the tank in pvp is burst damage (in arenas, the burst is often accomplished via "tunneling" the tank.) Furthermore, shield becomes far more important than defense because the preponderance of player attacks are Force/Tech and many classes have auto-crit abilities either in their discipline or from set bonuses, and there are more frequent internal/elemental attacks which cannot be defended or shielded. Defensive secondary stats become much less important when there is very little white damage coming at you.

 

To prevent confusion, I will point out that auto-crits are meaningless as far as the value of defense is concerned as the shield/crit RNG roll occurs after the accuracy/defense RNG roll.

 

Also I can put up a tentative number for your statement of "little white damage." Specifically from my own data I see that ~32% of damage taken is M/R. Now it's worth noting that I primarily play heavy armor classes which is significant since all I/E attacks in PvP are either Force or Tech attacks. So the actual amount of white damage is probably over 33% and likely closer to 34 or 35% especially once you count the missed M/R attacks that do not show in my data.

For the curious I also have put the average crit rate (this includes autocrits) at ~24%, and I/E damage represents ~25% of my data.

 

what kills the tank in pvp is burst damage (in arenas, the burst is often accomplished via "tunneling" the tank.

This is not really true at all, burst damage is the least threat to a tank since trying to burst through ~50k HP that also has high armor and RNG mitigation in addition to a impressive DcD arsenal is unlikely to ever happen outside of extraordinary circumstances.

 

The biggest threat to a tank in PvP is death by attrition which occurs when the tank is taking more DTPS than he is taking HTPS. Typically in a competitive situation none of the burst classes are capable of sustaining that level of DPS long enough to actually kill a tank.

Tank tunneling which you referenced uses what the PvE'ers call "sustained" specs and what PvP'ers typically call "pressure specs" or "dotspecs." The posterboys for those being Hatred and Madness. The concept of tank tunnel is based on the notion that a tank cannot use guard or taunts to protect himself, and therefore is the easiest target to pressure. However actually pressuring a tank like that usually requires specs like madness that are high in I/E damage.

 

The argument for high endurance on a tank is born on the idea that having a tank with high endurance in the current meta is based more on the idea of prolong the amount of time a tank can go without heals, which can be important when healers are often incapacitated or have to prioritize keeping someone else alive.

Although I'm starting to question the value of running a full high-endurance set-up. While high endurance may buy some time short term it does nothing against pressure specs in the long run. Hatred and Madness might have impressive I/E counts but half their damage is still K/E so mitigation still has some value.

[phalczen]

That is great information Zoom, thanks for the explanation and corrections!

[adproduction]

This is not really true at all, burst damage is the least threat to a tank since trying to burst through ~50k HP that also has high armor and RNG mitigation in addition to a impressive DcD arsenal is unlikely to ever happen outside of extraordinary circumstances.

 

Do you even know what burst damage is? It's hitting someone with one or at least up to 3 attacks that all do major damage. Sure he will mitigate the damage with his armoring, shield/absorb, etc. But burst damage is still going to hurt. So if a Rage or Sniper can hit 12k on a high critical surge and you mitigate 20% of that you're still doing like 9.6k damage, which still hurts even if you have 40k to 50k. Unless that dps is shut down immediately, consistent burst damage is going to stack up. Worst case scenario, you are fighting DPS who uses heavy AOE (Vanguard, Sniper/Gunslinger, etc.) or Vengeance who has high damaging Vengeful Slam. Not only is he hitting you, but the healer to and some of the healer's damage is mitigated to you. This is another reason why PvP tanking is dead because the dps can kill the healer through the tank as you can be used as a damage beacon for everyone else around you. (This is also how I got 800k in WZ and was able to take Satelittes in GSF using my gunship when fighting bombers.)

 

Same with the non-critical damage and you can't rely on your passive defenses to mitigate all the damage AS THEY ARE DONE THROUGH CHANCE.

 

 

To prevent confusion, I will point out that auto-crits are meaningless as far as the value of defense is concerned as the shield/crit RNG roll occurs after the accuracy/defense RNG roll.

 

See above.

 

Tank tunneling which you referenced uses what the PvE'ers call "sustained" specs and what PvP'ers typically call "pressure specs" or "dotspecs." The posterboys for those being Hatred and Madness. The concept of tank tunnel is based on the notion that a tank cannot use guard or taunts to protect himself, and therefore is the easiest target to pressure. However actually pressuring a tank like that usually requires specs like madness that are high in I/E damage.

 

Tunneling in general is when you (and often times your team) try to focus on one target an attempt to kill him or her. On one end, you can beat almost any opponent with focus fire. On the other end, it leaves you blindsided to an attack from the targets teammates. I often found tunneling lead to a teams defeat, including my own, no matter what spec or class I was running UNLESS the person in question had underlevel gear or was under level themselves.

 

The argument for high endurance on a tank is born on the idea that having a tank with high endurance in the current meta is based more on the idea of prolong the amount of time a tank can go without heals, which can be important when healers are often incapacitated or have to prioritize keeping someone else alive.

Although I'm starting to question the value of running a full high-endurance set-up. While high endurance may buy some time short term it does nothing against pressure specs in the long run. Hatred and Madness might have impressive I/E counts but half their damage is still K/E so mitigation still has some value.

 

High endurance has been an idea since DnD days. It's the idea the best defense is outlasting your opponent rather than rely on tissue paper armor to see you through a fight. Often times, mages would employ non-saving magic which did high damage or a person would get lucky and land a critical strike which could end the fight early. Many players believe that stack one's health was better to defense. To extend they were right. This idea was even used in early MMO like Everquest and WoW. It works, but in order for the high endurance to work effectively you still need a high ability to mitigate damage.

 

As for specs like Hatred and Madness, they are classes design to bypass armor just as the Rogue was. If they weren't any classes in this game that could do that then Tank builds would be overpowered.

Edited July 2, 2015 by adproduction

[Loken_Darksoul]

A lot of people recommend using B-mods, Fortitude augments, and maybe even high-endurance enhancements when they gear their pvp tank because what kills the tank in pvp is burst damage (in arenas, the burst is often accomplished via "tunneling" the tank.) Furthermore, shield becomes far more important than defense because the preponderance of player attacks are Force/Tech and many classes have auto-crit abilities either in their discipline or from set bonuses, and there are more frequent internal/elemental attacks which cannot be defended or shielded. Defensive secondary stats become much less important when there is very little white damage coming at you.

 

Power and strength will increase the amount that Focused Defense heals you, or damage that Blade Barricade absorbs, but in the end, its the "end" (i.e. endurance) that seems to matter the most. That's the advice I've gleaned from my reading and it seems to work on my guardian in regs (haven't tried him in rwz). It helps to fool the enemy as well because many people simply look at health pools to decide if someone is wearing pve or pvp gear.

 

Thank you for your input. So HP wins against the Def-Stats, well a bit boring, but I'm ok with it (I hoped you could

fool around with Shield-Absorb-Defensive like on the DPS-Side).

 

About Fortitude augments: What about Might-Augs? Is it an option or not? (I know, I know, I'm not a DPS, but still.

I prefer Strength over power ...)

 

Shield Amplification and Reactive Warding are BiS for PvP in terms of mitigation. Augments will still be full endurance augs for the forseeable future. You don't take any defense rating. Everything should be shield/absorb.

 

So, the same as in PvE. Thought so, even IMHO I find them weak if you compare them with the DPS-Relics ...

 

Again, thank you guys for the info.

[Zoom_VI]

Do you even know what burst damage is? It's hitting someone with one or at least up to 3 attacks that all do major damage. Sure he will mitigate the damage with his armoring, shield/absorb, etc. But burst damage is still going to hurt. So if a Rage or Sniper can hit 12k on a high critical surge and you mitigate 20% of that you're still doing like 9.6k damage, which still hurts even if you have 40k to 50k. Unless that dps is shut down immediately, consistent burst damage is going to stack up.

 

You're actually underestimating how much burst snipers and other burst classes can put out. But here is the thing, taking a 12k hit is not major for a tank competitively. 12k hits don't kill you. You could take double 12k ambushes and have 50% heath left. Now if snipers could ambush two times in a row that might be a problem, but they don't, and neither do any of the of the other burst classes.

 

Most burst classes especially the ones with high peak burst have short periods of burst followed by a intermediate phase where they just have mediocre fillers. Burst classes score their kills during the burst window. If they burst and you're not dead when they complete their burst window then they failed. Any well played healer can easily bring a target back up through the filler phase.

A tank is not going to get killed like that, the damage just simply isn't there. Add in DcDs and it becomes a joke especially for juggernauts. A jug tank playing their DcDs right can easily hold themselves up without any incoming heals for half a minute.

 

 

Worst case scenario, you are fighting DPS who uses heavy AOE (Vanguard, Sniper/Gunslinger, etc.) or Vengeance who has high damaging Vengeful Slam. Not only is he hitting you, but the healer to and some of the healer's damage is mitigated to you. This is another reason why PvP tanking is dead because the dps can kill the healer through the tank as you can be used as a damage beacon for everyone else around you. (This is also how I got 800k in WZ and was able to take Satelittes in GSF using my gunship when fighting bombers.)

Firstly there is no heavy AoE anymore. AoE cleaving in PvP died with old AP in 3.0. Mortar Volley, Sweeping Blasters, etc. are all minor damage. Healers don't have the slightest difficulty healing through that.

Dotspread is the only threat anymore, however dotspread falls under pressure stratagies, you're not going to be bursted down by dotspread.

 

Same with the non-critical damage and you can't rely on your passive defenses to mitigate all the damage AS THEY ARE DONE THROUGH CHANCE.

It doesn't matter, there simply isn't enough burst available to anyone to kill a tank in the ~8 seconds or less that is necessary to pull it off.

 

 

 

Tunneling in general is when you (and often times your team) try to focus on one target an attempt to kill him or her. On one end, you can beat almost any opponent with focus fire. On the other end, it leaves you blindsided to an attack from the targets teammates. I often found tunneling lead to a teams defeat, including my own, no matter what spec or class I was running UNLESS the person in question had underlevel gear or was under level themselves.

I don't think you actually understand what is being said. Tunneling, is in competitive situations based on the idea that if you can do more DPS to the opposing team than they can do in HPS then invariably someone will die.

Now if all you do is regs as in 8v8 warzones, then yes tunneling is usually not a smart idea because 8v8 objectives are all time sensitive, as in you have 20 seconds to clear a node before the respawn gate opens and the defenders get reinforced.

 

 

 

High endurance has been an idea since DnD days. It's the idea the best defense is outlasting your opponent rather than rely on tissue paper armor to see you through a fight. Often times, mages would employ non-saving magic which did high damage or a person would get lucky and land a critical strike which could end the fight early. Many players believe that stack one's health was better to defense. To extend they were right. This idea was even used in early MMO like Everquest and WoW. It works, but in order for the high endurance to work effectively you still need a high ability to mitigate damage.

 

As for specs like Hatred and Madness, they are classes design to bypass armor just as the Rogue was. If they weren't any classes in this game that could do that then Tank builds would be overpowered.

Firstly the idea of high endurance has nothing to do with DnD or WoW because the former functions nothing like SWTOR mechanically and the latter intentionally designs tanks so that they are not viable in PvP, i.e. PvP in WoW is just DPS and healers, rather than the full trinity.

 

High endurance in SWTOR became a thing because of how weak defensive mechanics where for the entirely early history of this game. For instances until it was fixed mid 2.x, damage taken through guard could not be mitigated at all, which was huge since the majority of the damage taken by a tank comes through guard. Additionally up until 2.4 all PvP in SWTOR was 8v8 objective warzones. Objective based PvP places much more emphasis on short term survivability rather than long term survivability. Tanks only had to live long enough for the respawn gate to reopen. It wasn't until arenas did the idea of killing by attrition even become a thing.

 

As for specs like Hatred and Madness, they are classes design to bypass armor just as the Rogue was. If they weren't any classes in this game that could do that then Tank builds would be overpowered.

Rogues are irrelevant. WoW doesn't have viable tanks in PvP so tank killing is meaningless.

 

Also you don't need to have specs bypassing defensive mechanics in order to keep tanks in check. Teams can with use of CC and coordination easily get around Guard and kill the tank's teammates. And if a tank's team is dead then it becomes a simple matter of mopping up the tank himself.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[adproduction]

Rogues are irrelevant. WoW doesn't have viable tanks in PvP so tank killing is meaningless.[/Quote]

 

This is actually a lie. I mention Rogue as a class who were designed to bypass armor. I don't know why you said this. Maybe you don't like WoW or you've never played it, but yes Rogue at one point Vanilla could bypass armor with certain abilities.

 

Same with tanks. Saying that WoW didn't have tanks is just crazy. I play Tankadins and Protection Warriors in WoW and they very tankish, ranging from CCs to being able to take a crap load of damage. Both TP and PWs can soak up damage like nobody's business. They would make Powertechs/Vanguard and Guardians/Juggernauts look tissue paper in the amount of damage they can soak.

 

With that being said burst damage can kill you if they consistently critical hit. Yes, you have cooldowns and healers, but I'm talking about migitation wise. Plus, healers have nothing to do with a tank's own survivability. Tanks, outside of these factors, won't feel the sting of a dps attack until a couple of attacks in. AOE burst damage are even worse because not only you at the center of the attack, but you are sucking in whatever damage the person is guarding is doing.

 

Firstly there is no heavy AoE anymore.

 

Actually this is not true and it's still live and well. My old Jedi Guardian DPS tank can do 10k critical Guardian Slash and everyone else getting hit around him did 7k to 10k. Unless the victims in the AOE is affected less by a certain percentage (Like the Gunship's Ion cannon), everyone is going to get affected about the same.

 

Teams can with use of CC and coordination easily get around Guard and kill the tank's teammates. And if a tank's team is dead then it becomes a simple matter of mopping up the tank himself.

 

One of the reason why I said pvp tanking is dead.

[Zoom_VI]

 

Same with tanks. Saying that WoW didn't have tanks is just crazy. I play Tankadins and Protection Warriors in WoW and they very tankish, ranging from CCs to being able to take a crap load of damage. Both TP and PWs can soak up damage like nobody's business.

I never said they where not tanky, I said they where not viable. In WoW you never worry about tanks, you just ignore tham and kill their teammates. Because in WoW they don't have the massive peeling arsenal that tanks in SWTOR do.

 

With that being said burst damage can kill you if they consistently critical hit. Yes, you have cooldowns and healers, but I'm talking about migitation wise. Plus, healers have nothing to do with a tank's own survivability.

1) Healers have everything to do with survivability, mitigation means little without heals, but with heals mitigation is amazing.

2) I'm sorry but nothing in this game hits hard enough even on crits to kill a tank before said tank reacts and pops a DcD. Your DPS geared tank might get globaled, but the high end tanks do not. In all my experience with ranked I've seen a tank globaled once and it was a shadow tank in season three that got railed by three Pyro PTs who where running all of their offensive coodowns. Of course PTs don't have anywhere near the I/E or armor pen nowadays that they had back then.

 

 

Actually this is not true and it's still live and well. My old Jedi Guardian DPS tank can do 10k critical Guardian Slash and everyone else getting hit around him did 7k to 10k. Unless the victims in the AOE is affected less by a certain percentage (Like the Gunship's Ion cannon), everyone is going to get affected about the same.

I think the issue you are having is one of perspective. 10k was impressive a year ago. In the current meta 10k is barely scratching the surface. My Commando in DPS spec can put up 10k self heals with the same cooldown as your guardian slash. There are classes whose fillers hit for 7k.

 

Heavy AoE was pre 3.0 when a pair of AP PTs could 100% to 0% a tank in 3 seconds with a coordinated combined Flamethrower cleave.

You guardian slash is a 10k hit every 12 seconds. That's 1/4th of a DPS's health and 1/5th of a tanks health, and you are only doing that once every 12 seconds. That's pathetic.

 

 

One of the reason why I said pvp tanking is dead.

Nope, PvP tanking in SWTOR is amazing, there are very good reasons as to why every ranked team brings a tank. It just has a really low skill floor and a really high skill ceiling.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[adproduction]

I never said they where not tanky, I said they where not viable. In WoW you never worry about tanks, you just ignore tham and kill their teammates. Because in WoW they don't have the massive peeling arsenal that tanks in SWTOR do.

 

PvP tanking in WoW was about slowing your opponent and CC as opposing to taunting and guarding. Their snares slowed you down so bad that you had no choice, but to face them. In addition, when you did fight them, they had the ability to ignite shielding abilities to reduce the damage while counting attacking. Other games have employ this in some form or fashion.

 

1) Healers have everything to do with survivability, mitigation means little without heals, but with heals mitigation is amazing.

 

I'm not saying Healers are not a part of PvP. I'm saying a tank by itself, not counting other factors, can be killed with back to back burst damage. Thus, a tank without cooldowns or a healer is just a vulnerable as any other character and why burst damage is as dangerous to them as anyone else. That's my point.

 

2) I'm sorry but nothing in this game hits hard enough even on crits to kill a tank before said tank reacts and pops a DcD.

 

I agree. I wasn't saying there any moves that could take a tank fast, but rather burst damage is just as dangerous to a tank as anyone else. It's also the tank main weakness outside of bypassing their armor and defense.

 

I think the issue you are having is one of perspective. 10k was impressive a year ago. In the current meta 10k is barely scratching the surface. My Commando in DPS spec can put up 10k self heals with the same cooldown as your guardian slash. There are classes whose fillers hit for 7k.

 

Heavy AoE was pre 3.0 when a pair of AP PTs could 100% to 0% a tank in 3 seconds with a coordinated combined Flamethrower cleave.

You guardian slash is a 10k hit every 12 seconds. That's 1/4th of a DPS's health and 1/5th of a tanks health, and you are only doing that once every 12 seconds. That's pathetic.

 

If my character could do 20k or greater in single blow, I would be asking for a nerf bat to my own spec. A Rage/Focus can get up to 18k, which is fine, but if they could do this back to back with all their moves then I would be asking for a nerf on all their moves. NOBODY IN THIS GAME SHOULD BE ONE-SHOTTING OR THREE SHOOTING ANYONE.

 

If you played a Twink Rogue or a Subtle Rogue back in Vanilla, they could literally One shot cloth wearers and some medium wears. Ditto with Hunter and Aimed Shot. Even when Blizzard gave the Hunters a minor nerf, they could still three shot you with an Aimed Shot combo. Even though, I played both these classes, I was against one shotting.

 

Getting back to my point, I would much rather have balance than a Immortal Sith Juggernaut doing a 25k damaging Crushing Blow. My old Jedi Guardian defense did 10k Critical Guardian slash, 8k to 10k Master Strike Critical, 3k to 5k Force Critical, and Blade Storm 4k to 6999 damage blade storm. That's 24k to 32k in 4 moves, which is fine in a 40k to 50k Health game, especially when you factor in the damage of the other dps.

 

Nope, PvP tanking in SWTOR is amazing, there are very good reasons as to why every ranked team brings a tank. It just has a really low skill floor and a really high skill ceiling.

 

- As you just noted (and I noted in the past), you can just get rid of the tank through coordination without killing them. Separating the tank isn't hard.

 

- Again as we noted about Defense and Shield/Absorb as well as Burst AOE damage. It's not about killing you, it's about damaging and killing those around you THROUGH YOU. So you can't stick by your healer guard them, I'm just using you as a mean to hurt you and the healer, which force the healer to make a choice in not only distancing themselves from you, but also force them to prioritize who to heal. The more people caught in the Burst Damage AOE the better. So you can mitigate the damage all you want, I'm just using you as a mean to an end.

Edited July 3, 2015 by adproduction

[Nemeses]

any links to new tanking pvp builds, not played for a while so looking to find a decent pvp build for my jug