tdmaha Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Are you new to gaming? Devs have the same credibility as politicians and used car salesmen. Yes, ALL devs. To place blind faith in what they say is never a good idea. You can put desperate bitter SWG Vets on that list... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conundrum-NSA Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 You can put desperate bitter SWG Vets on that list... Because we made 6 pages and counting of whining about SWG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 The NGE was unique in MMO history and trying to compare changing the story and background of SWTOR to what the NGE did to SWG is like comparing an apple to a T-Rex. The NGE was a change in the fundamental game play of SWG, something not done in an MMO before or since, and not simply a growth of the story of the game world. For SWTOR to experience an "NGE moment" it would require a complete change in the base systems of the game with only two weeks notice AFTER selling everyone an expansion purchased without knowing that such a fundamental change to the game was going to happen immediately after that purchase...all the while completely ignoring the player base and the many issues within the game that had lingered. We don't have that here. We are getting communication...good communication...and we are getting it at a measured pace that is typical in marketing practices. We are seeing a "correction" after the poor implementation of the SoR expansion (even if it seems that end game is being ignored completely at this point in time) and we are starting to see real effort being put into bug fixes and game mechanics (even if some of us feel its not enough effort). Sadly, the NGE occurred because of a sequence of events that started in Beta testing of SWG. LucasArts didn't have any MMO experience but that didn't keep them from keeping a firm hand on the rudder that led to a Star Wars game that launched too early against the objections of the Beta testers who knew there wasn't enough game to go live. Entire skill trees were broken in multiple classes, armor didn't work properly, an entire crafting profession did...well, nothing...and we didn't even have vehicles let alone starships. Content was what you made. Sure, there were a few places like the Imperial Retreat where you could run a few quests and meet the Emperor but mostly you had to make your own content. The game when launched had a horribly unfinished feel to it and it kept that "work in progress" feel through the Jump to Lightspeed expansion. It was only around Rage of the Wookiees that the game started to feel finished but of course the Trials of Obi-wan and the NGE were just around the corner... A quick Google search on SWG and the NGE will give you a few articles and blogs written by some of the design leads and developers that give you a glimpse of the inner workings behind the NGE, but suffice it to say that the NGE will most likely remain a unique event in MMO history that no game company would ever want to repeat. It stands as an object lesson that I'm sure game developers take to heart when contemplating changes to their games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conundrum-NSA Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 The NGE was unique in MMO history and trying to compare changing the story and background of SWTOR to what the NGE did to SWG is like comparing an apple to a T-Rex. The NGE was a change in the fundamental game play of SWG, something not done in an MMO before or since, and not simply a growth of the story of the game world. For SWTOR to experience an "NGE moment" it would require a complete change in the base systems of the game with only two weeks notice AFTER selling everyone an expansion purchased without knowing that such a fundamental change to the game was going to happen immediately after that purchase...all the while completely ignoring the player base and the many issues within the game that had lingered. We don't have that here. We are getting communication...good communication...and we are getting it at a measured pace that is typical in marketing practices. We are seeing a "correction" after the poor implementation of the SoR expansion (even if it seems that end game is being ignored completely at this point in time) and we are starting to see real effort being put into bug fixes and game mechanics (even if some of us feel its not enough effort). Sadly, the NGE occurred because of a sequence of events that started in Beta testing of SWG. LucasArts didn't have any MMO experience but that didn't keep them from keeping a firm hand on the rudder that led to a Star Wars game that launched too early against the objections of the Beta testers who knew there wasn't enough game to go live. Entire skill trees were broken in multiple classes, armor didn't work properly, an entire crafting profession did...well, nothing...and we didn't even have vehicles let alone starships. Content was what you made. Sure, there were a few places like the Imperial Retreat where you could run a few quests and meet the Emperor but mostly you had to make your own content. The game when launched had a horribly unfinished feel to it and it kept that "work in progress" feel through the Jump to Lightspeed expansion. It was only around Rage of the Wookiees that the game started to feel finished but of course the Trials of Obi-wan and the NGE were just around the corner... A quick Google search on SWG and the NGE will give you a few articles and blogs written by some of the design leads and developers that give you a glimpse of the inner workings behind the NGE, but suffice it to say that the NGE will most likely remain a unique event in MMO history that no game company would ever want to repeat. It stands as an object lesson that I'm sure game developers take to heart when contemplating changes to their games. They are changing some mechanics, we don't know how many or how drastically, that's why the NGE (potential) comparison is valid, no matter how many drama queens say it isn't. KotFE isn't just adding story, it's changing mechanics to speed up or create more mobile combat (sound like any NGE's you know?) and it is also changing the companion mechanics to some degree. Since they have not really elaborated on either of these fairly naive of many in this thread to just say they have nothing in common. Blind faith is a powerful thing I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 They are changing some mechanics, we don't know how many or how drastically, that's why the NGE (potential) comparison is valid, no matter how many drama queens say it isn't. KotFE isn't just adding story, it's changing mechanics to speed up or create more mobile combat (sound like any NGE's you know?) and it is also changing the companion mechanics to some degree. Since they have not really elaborated on either of these fairly naive of many in this thread to just say they have nothing in common. Blind faith is a powerful thing I guess. There is changing mechanics and replacing mechanics. This game has changed mechanics a few times already but they haven't completely replaced them. The NGE was, for all intents and purposes, an entirely new game. Go back and re-read what has been posted by the developers. Thinking KotFE is going to be the NGE is "sky is falling" thinking combined a bit with conspiracy theory thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 They are changing some mechanics, we don't know how many or how drastically, that's why the NGE (potential) comparison is valid, no matter how many drama queens say it isn't. KotFE isn't just adding story, it's changing mechanics to speed up or create more mobile combat (sound like any NGE's you know?) and it is also changing the companion mechanics to some degree. Since they have not really elaborated on either of these fairly naive of many in this thread to just say they have nothing in common. Blind faith is a powerful thing I guess. Yes, clearly the people NOT comparing it to NGE are the drama queens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conundrum-NSA Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) There is changing mechanics and replacing mechanics. This game has changed mechanics a few times already but they haven't completely replaced them. The NGE was, for all intents and purposes, an entirely new game. Go back and re-read what has been posted by the developers. Thinking KotFE is going to be the NGE is "sky is falling" thinking combined a bit with conspiracy theory thinking. Can you quote where I said it IS going to be one? I'm really trying not to question some people's intelligence in this thread, but it seems like about 95% of the replies didn't read anything but the title of the thread. Edited June 29, 2015 by Conundrum-NSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Can you quote where I said it IS going to be one? I'm really trying not to question some people's intelligence in this thread, but it seems like about 95% of the replies didn't read anything but the title of the thread. You make a thread with known troll-/flame bait as the title, and you wonder why the thread goes south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holocron Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 You make a thread with known troll-/flame bait as the title, and you wonder why the thread goes south. Baiting trolls does not exist in these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) Baiting trolls does not exist in these forums. Neither do trolling and flaming. Edited June 29, 2015 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Kaitou-Kid Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Since they have not really elaborated on either of these fairly naive of many in this thread to just say they have nothing in common. It's been announced for two weeks. I understand the desire to know more about the expansion, I want to know more too, but can we please not pretend that they said "We're gonna do a new expansion!" and then left it at that? There's a plethora of information already and they've clearly said on multiple occasions that there will be MORE information as the days go by. The fact that you're jumping to this comparison anyway is just as naive (if not more) as the people who are saying they have nothing in common because there isn't enough information out in the two weeks that's it's been announced to make any fair comparisons. There's a Cantina on the 11th and the odds are we'll get at least some information from that. There's supposed to be some blog posts coming Soon™ that will give us some information as well. Why not wait and see what those bring us instead of jumping straight to this conclusion before they've even had a chance to release that information? TL;DR: Have some patience please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) Blind faith is a powerful thing I guess. So is blind fear and rampant / pessimistic speculation... Edited June 29, 2015 by azudelphi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conundrum-NSA Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 Baiting trolls does not exist in these forums. I see along with being an in game griefer he doesn't know what baiting or trolling actually mean. They do not mean "topics I personally dislike". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conundrum-NSA Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 So is blind fear and rampant / pessimistic speculation... Can you link to where I displayed either of those? I think it's time to give up on this thread, too many people replying to the voices in their heads and not what is actually on the screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Can you link to where I displayed either of those? I think it's time to give up on this thread, too many people replying to the voices in their heads and not what is actually on the screen. The exact same post I quoted (bolded your own text): KotFE isn't just adding story, it's changing mechanics to speed up or create more mobile combat (sound like any NGE's you know?) and it is also changing the companion mechanics to some degree. The only way to possibly call them the same is to say, "Change of any kind is the same as any other change". Such is intellectually dishonest. You are assuming what more mobile means as the worst case; you are speculating it is a combat re-write. It probably just means more instant casts or more casts on the run. Edited June 30, 2015 by azudelphi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Can you quote where I said it IS going to be one? I'm really trying not to question some people's intelligence in this thread, but it seems like about 95% of the replies didn't read anything but the title of the thread. And you didn't bother to read what was written and instead of discussion you've decided to use insults and personal attacks against anyone that you believe is disagreeing with you. There is no comparison...none, zero, nada...between the upcoming expansion and the NGE. You tried to equate BW's slow release of information to the complete secrecy behind the NGE and it doesn't compute to anyone who lived through the NGE. And the NGE secrecy was such a small part of what made the NGE the worst decision in MMO history that using it in an attempt to troll these forums is like using a Tac-nuke to swat a fly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelersWay Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The NGE was a change in the fundamental game play of SWG, something not done in an MMO before or since, and not simply a growth of the story of the game world. Not that I am nitpicking or anything, but End of Nations, Defiance, and FFXIV are three that come to mind that might qualify to some extent or another. True EoN was still in Alpha when it happened, and in the case of XIV it was actually a positive thing, but it still goes to show that devs are not adverse to making significant game-changing changes to their games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaesha Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Not that I am nitpicking or anything, but End of Nations, Defiance, and FFXIV are three that come to mind that might qualify to some extent or another. True EoN was still in Alpha when it happened, and in the case of XIV it was actually a positive thing, but it still goes to show that devs are not adverse to making significant game-changing changes to their games. FFXIV doesn't count. It was so badly flawed that it needed to be redesigned from the ground up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holocron Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I see along with being an in game griefer he doesn't know what baiting or trolling actually mean. They do not mean "topics I personally dislike". i agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekwalizer Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Source? There was obviously a business reason for shutting it down. I provided a source already, but here it is again: http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/24/exclusive-smedley-on-the-sunsetting-of-star-wars-galaxies/ -I started off by asking John about the reason behind the cancellation and whether or not it was a matter of LucasArts choosing not to renew the contract with SOE. John Smedley: The decision to shut down SWG is first and foremost a business decision mutually agreed upon between SOE and LucasArts. LucasArts has a new game coming out, and the contract would be running out in 2012 anyway, so we feel like it's the right time for the game to end. -What about the player population? Some readers will choose to believe that the game is being canceled because it's "dying." John Smedley: Populations have stayed pretty steady for a long time now. In fact, we recently merged a bunch of servers to help the prime-time population. But gosh, the game's been running for a long time now, and it's been a great run. We're glad to have done it. If the game was dying, there is no reason for JS not to say that. But instead he makes the point that populations were "pretty steady for a long time". I'll grant you that that is not growth, but it also doesn't mean that they were in the red on the game. They would not have been pushing content every six weeks if money was an issue. Just like the CM here, they were making tons of money from the TCG. Not sure how well versed you are in the corporate world but "mutually agreed upon" between a license holder and a licensee, seldom is. But I will concede that the cost of renewing the license was probably more than SOE determined that the game would be worth in the long run. As to the remark about merging servers, that happens and has already happened in this game. We had two forced mergers by this game's 8 month mark. All that means is that more resources than necessary have been dedicated than the player-base can justify. And I have news for some of you out there, there will be more mergers here in the near future. These voluntary character transfers are just a way to determine which servers to shutter. At least in this model players are given a choice on where to move and when to move there (for the most part). The fact that you apparently did play it and apparently did like it makes your opinion about why it shut down even more suspect. As I have pointed out in this very thread, yes I enjoyed that game. I enjoy this game too. What I don't do is try to compare the two. This is a Themepark, that was a Sandbox. Apples =/= Orangutans. You will never find a post where I am pining for the return of SWG. I'm simply pointing out to forumites such as yourself with "no skin in that game" that it was not shut down due to lack of money. *If* SWG only had 20,000 subscribers, that is still 3.6 million dollars per annum. That does not count the TCG revenue. Granted, not the $90 million Bioware seems to generate from subs, but keep in mind, MMOs didn't really hit until WoW and WoW siphoned most of the market for much of SWGs life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) I provided a source already, but here it is again: The relevant portion: The decision to shut down SWG is first and foremost a business decision mutually agreed upon between SOE and LucasArt You will never find a post where I am pining for the return of SWG. I'm simply pointing out to forumites such as yourself with "no skin in that game" that it was not shut down due to lack of money. The issue is not your "skin" in that game, it is the rose-colored glasses covering your eyes. *If* SWG only had 20,000 subscribers, that is still 3.6 million dollars per annum. That does not count the TCG revenue. Granted, not the $90 million Bioware seems to generate from subs, but keep in mind, MMOs didn't really hit until WoW and WoW siphoned most of the market for much of SWGs life. And you think you could keep an MMO running on $3.6 mil a year, even in 2005? Really? Edited June 30, 2015 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoverNoFighter Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The relevant portion: The issue is not your "skin" in that game, it is the rose-colored glasses covering your eyes. And you think you could keep an MMO running on $3.6 mil a year, even in 2005? Really? Feel free to provide facts that tell us otherwise. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekwalizer Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) The relevant portion: You, once again, conveniently neglected the part where JS says that subscriptions were steady for a long time, considering the question asked pertained to "the game dying" his answer is not an affirmative to the question. The issue is not your "skin" in that game, it is the rose-colored glasses covering your eyes. I'm pretty sure that at every turn, I openly admit the flaws of SWG. So you can take your rose-colored glasses comment and redirect it to one of the forum users that it actually applies to. And you think you could keep an MMO running on $3.6 mil a year, even in 2005? Really? Since you like to demand sources from everyone, where is yours? My comments in red Edited June 30, 2015 by ekwalizer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 My comments in red As of the second quarter of 2006, according to charts at MMOGchart.com, there were estimated to be between 110,000 and 175,000 subscribers.Source Link to Reference Material used in Source 175000 x $15 = $2.36 Million / month Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdmaha Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Source Link to Reference Material used in Source 175000 x $15 = $2.36 Million / month It's also widely know in late 2005 on a Friday night they had 10,000 people log in. Smeds was asked about this he didn't deny only stated that subs haven't fallen that low... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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