Discussion on the state of Darkness/Kinetic Combat

[Jcover]

i like assassin tans because they have the lightning abilities that look really cool

[Jcover]

Almost every successful progression guild carries awful tanks with really outstandingly, drop-dead amazing healers. Zorz was very open about this strategy, and even joked about it from time to time. (though they did have some great tanks, just not all of their tanks were "best in the world" class) This happens for two reasons. First, tanks are generally pretty bad at their jobs, which is unfortunate but usually innocuous because of the second factor. The second factor is that having amazing healing does more than just compensate for bad tanks. Great healing gives you margins for error during progression, allowing your group just a few extra seconds to practice screwing up a mechanic or seeing just a little bit further into the fight. That advantage multiplies itself exponentially, to the point where it's almost a guarantee that the best groups in the world have the best healers in the world, but not necessarily the best (or even close to it!) DPS or tanks.

 

I've been in some groups with absolutely friggin outstanding tanks and DPS, but really shoddy healers. Those groups don't do well. I've also been in groups with outstanding tanks and healers, but really mediocre DPS. Those groups get server (and world) firsts. Most world firsts though go to the groups with highly mediocre tanks, crazy-amazing healers and really outstanding DPS. Great healing and DPS can carry sub-optimal tanking, but the inverse is not generally true.

 

So it's unfortunate, but you're right. Tanks don't really have to strive for perfection in any sense of the word. The bar is set at "adequate". With that said though, if you put head-to-head two groups with equal scheduling constraints, where one has outstanding healing, DPS and tanking, while the second has outstanding healing and DPS but poor tanking, both will be successful but clearly the former will do quite a bit better. So tank quality isn't meaningless, it's just less meaningful than quality in the other two roles.

 

i like to think that i carried my tanks

[trendiee]

Almost every successful progression guild carries awful tanks with really outstandingly, drop-dead amazing healers. Zorz was very open about this strategy, and even joked about it from time to time. (though they did have some great tanks, just not all of their tanks were "best in the world" class) This happens for two reasons. First, tanks are generally pretty bad at their jobs, which is unfortunate but usually innocuous because of the second factor. The second factor is that having amazing healing does more than just compensate for bad tanks. Great healing gives you margins for error during progression, allowing your group just a few extra seconds to practice screwing up a mechanic or seeing just a little bit further into the fight. That advantage multiplies itself exponentially, to the point where it's almost a guarantee that the best groups in the world have the best healers in the world, but not necessarily the best (or even close to it!) DPS or tanks.

 

I've been in some groups with absolutely friggin outstanding tanks and DPS, but really shoddy healers. Those groups don't do well. I've also been in groups with outstanding tanks and healers, but really mediocre DPS. Those groups get server (and world) firsts. Most world firsts though go to the groups with highly mediocre tanks, crazy-amazing healers and really outstanding DPS. Great healing and DPS can carry sub-optimal tanking, but the inverse is not generally true.

 

So it's unfortunate, but you're right. Tanks don't really have to strive for perfection in any sense of the word. The bar is set at "adequate". With that said though, if you put head-to-head two groups with equal scheduling constraints, where one has outstanding healing, DPS and tanking, while the second has outstanding healing and DPS but poor tanking, both will be successful but clearly the former will do quite a bit better. So tank quality isn't meaningless, it's just less meaningful than quality in the other two roles.

 

Who would you consider a great or good tank? Are there people with videos or guides who are really good?

 

I was pretty disappointed for instance to find that the dulfy guides were written by people who don't even main tanks and only partly understood how to use their utility in fights when they were actually tanking.

Edited July 24, 2015 by trendiee

[Aelanis]

Who would you consider a great or good tank? Are there people with videos or guides who are really good?

 

I was pretty disappointed for instance to find that the dulfy guides were written by people who don't even main tanks and only partly understood how to use their utility in fights when they were actually tanking.

 

That's an awfully big, and largely incorrect, statement you made. Utilities are pretty straightforward, you'd have to be pretty dense to not understand how to use them in a fight.

[trendiee]

That's an awfully big, and largely incorrect, statement you made. Utilities are pretty straightforward, you'd have to be pretty dense to not understand how to use them in a fight.

 

Sorry, but I said "utility" not "utilities". I was looking for people to watch who did creative things with phase walk, vanish, intercede, etc, which the tank guides I've seen don't even start to get into. No offense, but if proper selection of utilities were all it took to make a tank great I'm sure keyboard ninja's post above would've looked a bit different

 

I didn't mean to imply that the guide-writers were incapable of clearing content, I was just hoping for videos from people who are at that next level. If you have videos like that I've missed I'd love to see them.

[Aelanis]

Sorry, but I said "utility" not "utilities". I was looking for people to watch who did creative things with phase walk, vanish, intercede, etc, which the tank guides I've seen don't even start to get into. No offense, but if proper selection of utilities were all it took to make a tank great I'm sure keyboard ninja's post above would've looked a bit different

 

I didn't mean to imply that the guide-writers were incapable of clearing content, I was just hoping for videos from people who are at that next level. If you have videos like that I've missed I'd love to see them.

 

Why would a beginner's guide go into detail on each fight for how to use things like phase walk and Shroud to cheese mechanics? I could get into all the things Shroud defends against, or every time when Phase Walk would help you line of sight a mechanic or get you places easily, but those wouldn't help you get any better at holding threat, and telling someone they can use Force Cloak to cancel Ion Cutter means nothing to them if they don't know what Ion Cutter is.

 

I don't stream because there really isn't reason to at this point. The hardest fights in this game have been cleared for ages, and Revan's only gotten easier. That, and the group I normally tank for is lagging very far behind on progression, to the point where I'd be showing you wipes on Commanders because we don't have the DPS/coordination for it.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Aelanis

[trendiee]

Why would a beginner's guide go into detail on each fight for how to use things like phase walk and Shroud to cheese mechanics? I could get into all the things Shroud defends against, or every time when Phase Walk would help you line of sight a mechanic or get you places easily, but those wouldn't help you get any better at holding threat, and telling someone they can use Force Cloak to cancel Ion Cutter means nothing to them if they don't know what Ion Cutter is.

 

I don't stream because there really isn't reason to at this point. The hardest fights in this game have been cleared for ages, and Revan's only gotten easier. That, and the group I normally tank for is lagging very far behind on progression, to the point where I'd be showing you wipes on Commanders because we don't have the DPS/coordination for it.

 

Woah there, you're getting a bit defensive. A few things to clear up:

Of course a beginner's guide wouldn't go into the things I'm looking for. Leaving out the part where the assassin guide doesn't say it's a beginner's guide (just a guide), and my related assumption that it would be comprehensive (but if that's not what you were getting paid to make, no worries there), the obvious place to look for fight specific tips would be fight specific guides... right? And those guides were written by a healer, right? And those videos were all from the point of view of and narrated by tanks who were pretty widely regarded as "ok, but not the best", right? So let's all take a deep breath

 

All I was asking was are there better tank guides from people who actually cared about excelling, not making a statement about anyone's ability or inability to make a guide like that. I didn't mean to hit on any hidden insecurities

Edited July 24, 2015 by trendiee

[xxSHOONYxx]

I didn't mean to hit on any hidden insecurities

:rak_03::rak_03: Oh snap! :rak_03::rak_03::rak_03:

[Aelanis]

Woah there, you're getting a bit defensive. A few things to clear up:

Of course a beginner's guide wouldn't go into the things I'm looking for. Leaving out the part where the assassin guide doesn't say it's a beginner's guide (just a guide), and my related assumption that it would be comprehensive (but if that's not what you were getting paid to make, no worries there), the obvious place to look for fight specific tips would be fight specific guides... right? And those guides were written by a healer, right? And those videos were all from the point of view of and narrated by tanks who were pretty widely regarded as "ok, but not the best", right? So let's all take a deep breath

 

All I was asking was are there better tank guides from people who actually cared about excelling, not making a statement about anyone's ability or inability to make a guide like that. I didn't mean to hit on any hidden insecurities

 

Well, let's look at exactly what you said:

I was pretty disappointed for instance to find that the dulfy guides were written by people who don't even main tanks and only partly understood how to use their utility in fights when they were actually tanking.

 

That sounds pretty insulting to me. I've done my best to master each of the fights on the classes I play on the hardest difficulties they offer, so long as group composition allows it. I also wrote one of those guides. So you more or less said that I'm not good enough to be considered a viable source of information. If you wanted to say that the specific fight guides were bad, then you should have in the first place, because we can only see what you explicitly say.

 

Moving on, you're not looking for a guide. You're looking for someone to hold your hand and walk you through how to maximize the use of your class in each fight. That's not helpful when new fights come out, because you're just going to look back at that guide and try to see what they say to do, rather than figure the fight out on your own. Go out and see what Shroud resists, look at your logs and see what moves are Force/Tech, see what abilities bosses have that Shroud can stop from functioning properly. See what abilities you can break by line of sighting the boss with Phase Walk. If a guide were to point out every instance of utility a Discipline brought to the table, it would no longer be teaching you how to play, it would be telling you how to play. You can only get so much better by reading a guide. Going out and actually doing the fights yourself is a far better way to get good at your class.

 

And no, there are no guides for people who want to excel. Nobody is going to take the time to hold the reader's hand through every boss fight in the game. There are just people willing to give you tips as you develop a strategy that works. That is, if you don't spit on their attempts to help other people improve.

 

Regardless, this is off topic. If you wanted to compare Assassin utility to Juggernauts or Powertechs in general areas, or even specific phases of certain fights, it would be another thing entirely.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Aelanis

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Woah there, you're getting a bit defensive. A few things to clear up:

Of course a beginner's guide wouldn't go into the things I'm looking for. Leaving out the part where the assassin guide doesn't say it's a beginner's guide (just a guide), and my related assumption that it would be comprehensive (but if that's not what you were getting paid to make, no worries there), the obvious place to look for fight specific tips would be fight specific guides... right? And those guides were written by a healer, right? And those videos were all from the point of view of and narrated by tanks who were pretty widely regarded as "ok, but not the best", right? So let's all take a deep breath

 

All I was asking was are there better tank guides from people who actually cared about excelling, not making a statement about anyone's ability or inability to make a guide like that. I didn't mean to hit on any hidden insecurities

 

You could always do the fights yourself enough times to master your class and then make a guide yourself for others who are in a similar position as you instead of complaining that no such guide exists.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Jinre_the_Jedi

[KeyboardNinja]

I've done detailed "master tier optimization" guides for shadow tanking fights in the past. In particular, pre-nerf NiM DP. It was a guide that was targeted specifically at other tanks in my guild, especially those who needed to be able to sub for me. It was enormously long (I think 35 pages in google docs?), took a long time to put together, and in the end I can count on one hand the number of people who have read it seriously.

 

So the cost/benefit ratio on master tier guides just isn't there. I can definitely sympathize with a desire to have some guidance on that front, but it's a lot of work to do this in a mass-consumable format, and also not work that would be useful to most people. The best thing to do is just send a message to someone who is taking those fights who you feel has the knowledge to help you (like Aelinis) and just ask for insight. It's easier to help someone one-on-one than write a generally available guide. :-)

[xxSHOONYxx]

I've done detailed "master tier optimization" guides for shadow tanking fights in the past. In particular, pre-nerf NiM DP. It was a guide that was targeted specifically at other tanks in my guild, especially those who needed to be able to sub for me. It was enormously long (I think 35 pages in google docs?), took a long time to put together, and in the end I can count on one hand the number of people who have read it seriously.

 

It made my head hurt

[trendiee]

Well, let's look at exactly what you said:

 

 

That sounds pretty insulting to me. ... If you wanted to say that the specific fight guides were bad, then you should have in the first place, because we can only see what you explicitly say.[/Quote]

Point taken. I now realize there are 14 guides I could have been referring to (1 for each class and 11 for current fights), and I'll be more specific in the future to make sure I don't reference the 3 that aren't applicable

For the record, given my comment followed a long post about how the bar for adequate tanking was pretty low I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what excellent tanking looks like, but the offense was accidental.

 

Moving on, you're not looking for a guide. You're looking for someone to hold your hand and walk you through how to maximize the use of your class in each fight. That's not helpful when new fights come out, because you're just going to look back at that guide and try to see what they say to do, rather than figure the fight out on your own.

 

You actually don't know anything about my motivations. All I asked was if there were videos or guides from people keyboard ninja considered "great". I'm not complaining about the lack of them, or moaning about people not spoon feeding me excellence, just wondering if there is any game footage of what a great tank looks like, or some sort of write up from one. I'm not egotistical enough to think I know everything about how to tank, and wanting to see how the best do it is hardly asking for a step by step on how to play. In a lot of activities, that's how people learn what they can do to get better.

 

You could always do the fights yourself enough times to master your class and then make a guide yourself for others who are in a similar position as you instead of complaining that no such guide exists.

If I ever start complaining about the lack of such a guide I'll be sure to do that. Although it will be tough to decide when I've mastered a fight when asking if there are videos or notes from other "masters" is so insulting... Interesting catch-22.

 

I've done detailed "master tier optimization" guides for shadow tanking fights in the past. In particular, pre-nerf NiM DP. It was a guide that was targeted specifically at other tanks in my guild, especially those who needed to be able to sub for me. It was enormously long (I think 35 pages in google docs?), took a long time to put together, and in the end I can count on one hand the number of people who have read it seriously.

 

So the cost/benefit ratio on master tier guides just isn't there. I can definitely sympathize with a desire to have some guidance on that front, but it's a lot of work to do this in a mass-consumable format, and also not work that would be useful to most people. The best thing to do is just send a message to someone who is taking those fights who you feel has the knowledge to help you (like Aelinis) and just ask for insight. It's easier to help someone one-on-one than write a generally available guide. :-)

 

Thanks for the information. I don't need a full proper guide, but seeing someone using their class to its' full potential as a tank would have been interesting. If nothing like that exists, oh well! And if Aelanis is the one you were going to point to as "the excellent tank in this game" I'm afraid I burned that bridge before I could even get to it (I now see why you'd be reluctant to reply to the question "who would you consider a great tank?")

 

Sorry for derailing the thread even further than it was when i found it!

[KeyboardNinja]

All I asked was if there were videos or guides from people keyboard ninja considered "great". I'm not complaining about the lack of them, or moaning about people not spoon feeding me excellence, just wondering if there is any game footage of what a great tank looks like, or some sort of write up from one. I'm not egotistical enough to think I know everything about how to tank, and wanting to see how the best do it is hardly asking for a step by step on how to play. In a lot of activities, that's how people learn what they can do to get better.

 

I was actually intending to answer this part of your question, and I forgot…

 

A very non-exhaustive list of tanks that I consider to be truly top-tier, and remember that I don't review everyone's footage:

 

• Smugglin
  
• Buff-assassins
  

 

Tanks I've been very very impressed with:

 

• Colonelpumpy (his tank had like a zillion names, but he tanked with DnT and Zorz)
  
• Eyvanguard (disclaimer: my RL brother)
  
• Thiol
  

 

I would assume that several of the people on this thread also are very worthy of a mention here, but I can only report on what I've seen. (e.g. I've never seen Aelinis tank, but given how he describes things, I have no doubt that he is formidable) I'm also not including myself in any sort of ranking, because ego.

 

In any case, Smugglin is involved in most of the Zorz boss guides (which are on Dulfy), so that's a pretty good place to see him work. The amazing thing is that his tanks aren't even his best toons… Buff-assassins was the Jugg tank for Zorz in the NiM DP tier, and so you can see him in all of their world first kills. Colonelpumpy tanked for DnT for quite a while post-3.0, and then Zorz after that. Eyvanguard tanked for Paramount and recorded a few of his kills (his recordings predate a recent renaissance in his abilities, so I don't recommend them), and now tanks for Aisthesis and DPSes in Hates You.

 

If you want to see my own take on things, I have a bunch of videos up on YouTube. I used to stream on Twitch, but I stopped both because it strained my graphics card a bit (forcing me to drop my settings from max) and because I really didn't see the point given how late we are in the tier. I'm not going to claim that I'm the perfect exemplar to follow, and frankly I can see tons of mistakes in my own videos when I look back on them, but maybe it'll give you a few ideas. I recommend the pre-nerf NiM videos, where applicable, since they involved a lot more thought and planning than the current tier of HMs do, with respect to tanking.

[trendiee]

Thanks for all the names! That'll provide plenty of things to watch, I'm sure.

[VarekRayth]

I was actually intending to answer this part of your question, and I forgot…

 

A very non-exhaustive list of tanks that I consider to be truly top-tier, and remember that I don't review everyone's footage:

 

• Smugglin
  
• Buff-assassins
  

 

Tanks I've been very very impressed with:

 

• Colonelpumpy (his tank had like a zillion names, but he tanked with DnT and Zorz)
  
• Eyvanguard (disclaimer: my RL brother)
  
• Thiol
  

 

I would assume that several of the people on this thread also are very worthy of a mention here, but I can only report on what I've seen. (e.g. I've never seen Aelinis tank, but given how he describes things, I have no doubt that he is formidable) I'm also not including myself in any sort of ranking, because ego.

 

In any case, Smugglin is involved in most of the Zorz boss guides (which are on Dulfy), so that's a pretty good place to see him work. The amazing thing is that his tanks aren't even his best toons… Buff-assassins was the Jugg tank for Zorz in the NiM DP tier, and so you can see him in all of their world first kills. Colonelpumpy tanked for DnT for quite a while post-3.0, and then Zorz after that. Eyvanguard tanked for Paramount and recorded a few of his kills (his recordings predate a recent renaissance in his abilities, so I don't recommend them), and now tanks for Aisthesis and DPSes in Hates You.

 

If you want to see my own take on things, I have a bunch of videos up on YouTube. I used to stream on Twitch, but I stopped both because it strained my graphics card a bit (forcing me to drop my settings from max) and because I really didn't see the point given how late we are in the tier. I'm not going to claim that I'm the perfect exemplar to follow, and frankly I can see tons of mistakes in my own videos when I look back on them, but maybe it'll give you a few ideas. I recommend the pre-nerf NiM videos, where applicable, since they involved a lot more thought and planning than the current tier of HMs do, with respect to tanking.

 

milas is bad confirmed.

[Luckygunslinger]

milas is bad confirmed.

 

Who?

[trendiee]

Who?

 

I think he was the tank who took all the videos for the dulfy guides, salim

[Aelanis]

Who?

 

"Oh, just some baddie Sorc" - Mikey

[Creepjack]

So, I've tanked endgame at 50, less at 55, and have just returned an picked up the sin, and have been tanking about 2 weeks. We've breezed through 7/10HM so far. So while I'm coming late to the party this tier, I can still speak anecdotally I guess, but certainly not with the depth or evidence already in the thread. Probs to Aelanis, KBN and co for the work you've done, almost all my assumptions are piggybacked off what you've already done.

 

In terms of complaints leveled against the class, The only place I ever feel I'm at risk of spiking to death is if I'm taking Kurse and a couple of sith revanites at the end of commanders. And if I'm smarter with shroud and DCDs I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem.

 

Regarding opening threat, there are only a few (2gcds maybe) where I might lose threat if I'm not cycling taunt, but there doesn't ever seem to be a reason not to cycle taunt (that I've hit so far), most of the fights have a wide enough opening phase that only thing TO worry about is the threat dance.

 

Stack uptime: It would be nice not to lose stacks to immune mobs, but it never seems to be life or death (I totally agree with the 'mediocre tanks can be supported with incredible healers' sentiment, at times it honestly seems like it doesn't matter what I press, it'll be fine).

 

No knockback protection: doesn't seem to matter? we have a LOT of leeway with emersion+speed and

phase walk. But I imagine it will be annoying on MB and Revan, so can't really speak to this.

 

I do have a couple of nub questions though, and while they're sort of out of place, I thought I'd ask them here.

 

1: Force Cloak? I know the answer will probably come with experience, but other than MB, where are sins able to abuse cloak? for medpack, extra shroud, etc? So far I've been playing conservatively so I don't try new things and wipe the group, but there's definitely room for improvement on my part now that I've seen the bosses.

 

2: Relics? I know reactive warding was better pre 3.0 than Shield amp, is that still the case? I've seen pre 3.0 math I think, but haven't found post? Either way I don't feel there is much of a difference (maybe 20-30 dtps?) between them, but the tank that quit my group and led to me tanking swears reactive warding is garbage. He said it with enough conviction that now I doubt myself, but I'm (fairly?) certain that, factoring in DR for absorb, and the fact that it won't blanket all types of damage that reactive warding would pull slightly ahead? It's minor, but it's bugging me.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Creepjack

[Aelanis]

So, I've tanked endgame at 50, less at 55, and have just returned an picked up the sin, and have been tanking about 2 weeks. We've breezed through 7/10HM so far. So while I'm coming late to the party this tier, I can still speak anecdotally I guess, but certainly not with the depth or evidence already in the thread. Probs to Aelanis, KBN and co for the work you've done, almost all my assumptions are piggybacked off what you've already done.

 

In terms of complaints leveled against the class, The only place I ever feel I'm at risk of spiking to death is if I'm taking Kurse and a couple of sith revanites at the end of commanders. And if I'm smarter with shroud and DCDs I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem.

 

Regarding opening threat, there are only a few (2gcds maybe) where I might lose threat if I'm not cycling taunt, but there doesn't ever seem to be a reason not to cycle taunt (that I've hit so far), most of the fights have a wide enough opening phase that only thing TO worry about is the threat dance.

 

Stack uptime: It would be nice not to lose stacks to immune mobs, but it never seems to be life or death (I totally agree with the 'mediocre tanks can be supported with incredible healers' sentiment, at times it honestly seems like it doesn't matter what I press, it'll be fine).

 

No knockback protection: doesn't seem to matter? we have a LOT of leeway with emersion+speed and

phase walk. But I imagine it will be annoying on MB and Revan, so can't really speak to this.

 

I do have a couple of nub questions though, and while they're sort of out of place, I thought I'd ask them here.

 

1: Force Cloak? I know the answer will probably come with experience, but other than MB, where are sins able to abuse cloak? for medpack, extra shroud, etc? So far I've been playing conservatively so I don't try new things and wipe the group, but there's definitely room for improvement on my part now that I've seen the bosses.

But Terminate Roulette used to be so much fun! Anyway, it's most abusable on Master/Blaster, but can help on Torque to ensure you lose aggro to your cotank, but a good cotank won't leave that to be an issue. It's not terribly vital/useful/cheesy in other fights, though, other than for the extra medpack.

2: Relics? I know reactive warding was better pre 3.0 than Shield amp, is that still the case? I've seen pre 3.0 math I think, but haven't found post? Either way I don't feel there is much of a difference (maybe 20-30 dtps?) between them, but the tank that quit my group and led to me tanking swears reactive warding is garbage. He said it with enough conviction that now I doubt myself, but I'm (fairly?) certain that, factoring in DR for absorb, and the fact that it won't blanket all types of damage that reactive warding would pull slightly ahead? It's minor, but it's bugging me.

Get the Reactive Warding. It doesn't matter much on the others. The Reactive Warding is the best, hands down, but it's still not super-amazing. Tank relics just aren't a big deal. A friend of mine got his first HM Coratanni kill with Ruusan relics.

[Kingsbount]

I don't know...

But lately (with new content released) i find assassins too much restricted in a matter of tactics vs rotations.

Too low time to maintain Dark protection with all this knocks/swaps/running...

 

I mean assassins are already less protected tanks in game - why making them even harder.

12s duration of DP is a joke for me now. Not fun and stupid.

I don't have room for anything literally

I must maintain this damn buff...

 

Just look at jugg tank. 20s buff to maintain... Seriously? 20 vs 12

WTH???

 

Powertech... I guess we all know what im talking about, eh? PT by himself is already heavy armored machine

 

Assassins left far behind those two in tactics, freedom and buff maintain.

This is just... wrong!

 

We have light armor that with buff is slightly better than medium armor and shield chances that slightly better than PT shield chances.

 

This! Is! Wrong!

 

Maybe i'm wrong. Maybe i'm just lost all desire to play as sin-tank... But from my point of view - we lost all our unique style and awsomness.

Now we just light armored "sort-of-tank", nothing more.

[Aelanis]

I don't know...

But lately (with new content released) i find assassins too much restricted in a matter of tactics vs rotations.

Too low time to maintain Dark protection with all this knocks/swaps/running...

 

I mean assassins are already less protected tanks in game - why making them even harder.

12s duration of DP is a joke for me now. Not fun and stupid.

I don't have room for anything literally

I must maintain this damn buff...

 

Just look at jugg tank. 20s buff to maintain... Seriously? 20 vs 12

WTH???

 

Powertech... I guess we all know what im talking about, eh? PT by himself is already heavy armored machine

 

Assassins left far behind those two in tactics, freedom and buff maintain.

This is just... wrong!

 

We have light armor that with buff is slightly better than medium armor and shield chances that slightly better than PT shield chances.

 

This! Is! Wrong!

 

Maybe i'm wrong. Maybe i'm just lost all desire to play as sin-tank... But from my point of view - we lost all our unique style and awsomness.

Now we just light armored "sort-of-tank", nothing more.

 

"slightly better?" I mean, if you call the 2 times extra you get when you go up a class of armor (light to medium, medium to heavy) "slightly better" then I guess you'd have a point. But considering in PvE there's about a 13 additive percent difference between typical light and heavy armor classes, and there's another roughly 13% extra going from a typical heavy armor user and an Assassin tank, I don't think you realize just how much more armor we have than non-tanks. Even Juggernauts are really only about 7-8 additive percent ahead of us.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Aelanis

[Kingsbount]

"slightly better?" I mean, if you call the 2 times extra you get when you go up a class of armor (light to medium, medium to heavy) "slightly better" then I guess you'd have a point. But considering in PvE there's about a 13 additive percent difference between typical light and heavy armor classes, and there's another roughly 13% extra going from a typical heavy armor user and an Assassin tank, I don't think you realize just how much more armor we have than non-tanks. Even PTs are really only about 7-8 additive percent ahead of us.

 

Umm... 7-8%? Seriously?

When did you tanked on PT last time?

It's 12.

12 damn percent in DR

 

Sin in full 192 (average) have 39-40%

PT in the same 192 have 51-52%

 

Talk about difference between theorycrafting and REAL stats

[Aelanis]

Umm... 7-8%? Seriously?

When did you tanked on PT last time?

It's 12.

12 damn percent in DR

 

Sin in full 192 (average) have 39-40%

PT in the same 192 have 51-52%

 

Talk about difference between theorycrafting and REAL stats

 

Sorry, I typo'd, I meant to type Juggernauts and fixed it, not that it makes a huge difference. An Assassin in 192s will have roughly 44% DR in combat, versus a Juggernaut's roughly 50%. Even PTs only get a little above 52%. You can't just discount the DR boost from Dark Protection, because it is, in almost all cases, quite easy to keep going, especially now that we can use DV on the move.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Aelanis