Discussion on the state of Deception/Infiltration

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

Then please tell me what BW removed from all the other DPS specs in order to "compensate" for this new autocrit. Oh, wait, they didn't. It's a set bonus, not a part of the class/spec itself. Look I don't mean to be rude but if you blatantly have no clue what you're talking about please don't comment on a thread whose sole intent is a detailed discussion of the current standing of a spec.

maul autocit with duplicity 8/10k low slash another maul with duplicity 8/10k in less than 3 sec + all crowd controls sins have, little bit op don't you think ? or you want only sins on wz's nowadays ? ... oh wait, is already full of sins, nevermind

[Hei_Atzfel]

maul autocit with duplicity 8/10k low slash another maul with duplicity 8/10k in less than 3 sec + all crowd controls sins have, little bit op don't you think ? or you want only sins on wz's nowadays ? ... oh wait, is already full of sins, nevermind

 

You realize that second maul being a crit is 100% RNG, right? I could use your "logic" and say that Arsenal shouldn't have the Blazing Bolts reset because it's imbalanced that they get two 16k BB's with only requiring a single Tracer Missile in between. But the reality is that it doesn't work that way. As for the asinine comment at the end of your post, feel free to hop on TS with me sometime, I hate with a burning passion all of the FOTM rerolls to my class. But from the way your post comes off it seems to me that you have a hatred of Assassins and think that anyone who plays this class whatsoever is just a FOTM reroll who wants to be OP and faceroll PvP.

 

I've been playing Deception Assassin since I started this game. It's my favorite spec and I'm going to continue to play it whether it's overpowered, underpowered, or perfectly balanced. Nothing is going to get me to stop playing my main, and if you think I'm just a reroll I can go take a screenshot of my /played to prove you wrong.

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

You realize that second maul being a crit is 100% RNG, right? I could use your "logic" and say that Arsenal shouldn't have the Blazing Bolts reset because it's imbalanced that they get two 16k BB's with only requiring a single Tracer Missile in between. But the reality is that it doesn't work that way. As for the asinine comment at the end of your post, feel free to hop on TS with me sometime, I hate with a burning passion all of the FOTM rerolls to my class. But from the way your post comes off it seems to me that you have a hatred of Assassins and think that anyone who plays this class whatsoever is just a FOTM reroll who wants to be OP and faceroll PvP.

 

I've been playing Deception Assassin since I started this game. It's my favorite spec and I'm going to continue to play it whether it's overpowered, underpowered, or perfectly balanced. Nothing is going to get me to stop playing my main, and if you think I'm just a reroll I can go take a screenshot of my /played to prove you wrong.

 

Nope no needed, honestly i don't care about fotm re rollers, but you will agree if the majority of ppl are re rolling assassin, is not because he is cool its because its broken, easy to play, more easier to face roll ppl in pvp.

 

for blazing bolt yu may be right, but it can be interrupted in at least 5 ways, maul is istant. plus, mercs don't have 4 stun/mezz or whatever,

Edited June 14, 2015 by xX-Archangel-Xx

[Hei_Atzfel]

Nope no needed, honestly i don't care about fotm re rollers, but you will agree if the majority of ppl are re rolling assassin, is not because he is cool its because its broken, easy to play, more easier to face roll ppl in pvp.

 

for blazing bolt yu may be right, but it can be interrupted in at least 5 ways, maul is istant.

 

Maul also requires you to be within 4 meters and with the target's back facing you whereas BB is usable from any direction and from 30 meters. Point being you're making an illogical argument.

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

Maul also requires you to be within 4 meters and with the target's back facing you whereas BB is usable from any direction and from 30 meters. Point being you're making an illogical argument.

 

since when is a problem beeing 4 meters with 4 stun/mezz's . I got your point btw, but the class needs some fixes, asap, wath the leaderboard than come back to me saying blazing > maul

[Hei_Atzfel]

since when is a problem beeing 4 meters with 4 stun/mezz's . I got your point btw, but the class needs some fixes, asap, wath the leaderboard than come back to me saying blazing > maul

 

If you're CC'ing someone solely to get a Maul in you're going to whitebar the person very quickly and needlessly. Besides if you're trying to make the leaderboard argument then your own post is hurting you as pretty much every of those super high rated sins are Hatred.

[xX-Archangel-Xx]

If you're CC'ing someone solely to get a Maul in you're going to whitebar the person very quickly and needlessly. Besides if you're trying to make the leaderboard argument then your own post is hurting you as pretty much every of those super high rated sins are Hatred.

 

Yeah i know, but even deception is far from beeing weak like a lot of ppl want to believe here. But like i said, since my posts are not welcome i will retire and watch you guys suggestions with interest

Edited June 14, 2015 by xX-Archangel-Xx

[Hei_Atzfel]

Yeah i know, but even deception is far from beeing weak like a lot of ppl want to believe here. But like i said, since my posts are not welcome i will retire and watch you guys suggestions with interest

 

*facepalm*

 

How many times do I have to keep repeating this same stuff? Deception is not weak, neither I nor Aelanis have told you that. I seriously don't understand where you're getting this information of yours.

[Aelanis]

maul autocit with duplicity 8/10k low slash another maul with duplicity 8/10k in less than 3 sec + all crowd controls sins have, little bit op don't you think ? or you want only sins on wz's nowadays ? ... oh wait, is already full of sins, nevermind

 

No, that's not too much, because you have to spend a global doing 2-4k damage on Low Slash, which drives down your average damage, and then you'd be wasting 2.5 seconds of stun if you immediately used Maul.

 

Let's also look at what AP can do as a point of comparison for Deception's burst. They start with 2 GCDs of setup, followed by Railshot + Thermal Detonator explosion > Magnetic Blast > autocrit Energy Burst > Railshot > Rocket Punch > Magnetic Blast > Railshot, with 7 missiles in there. With a greater than 50% critical rate on all of that, that damage racks up incredibly fast., since the smallest critical hit would be ~8k on Magnetic Blast, with the largest being upwards of 16k. You're then only another ~15 seconds from your next Energy Burst + Thermal Detonator combo, if you want to keep them together. The burst potential there is obscenely high, compared to Deception's, which runs out after 4 moves, 5 if you count Spike, and 5/6 if you can manage to put them into execute range in the first 4/5.

 

Now, would Deception having similar burst to AP right now be good for balance? No, not unless we lost a little control. But from the responses I've seen on this thread, it seems like most people would make that trade without a second thought.

[Hei_Atzfel]

Now, would Deception having similar burst to AP right now be good for balance? No, not unless we lost a little control. But from the responses I've seen on this thread, it seems like most people would make that trade without a second thought.

 

I know I'd do it in a heartbeat. LS was never meant to be used in the manner it is now, I don't even like it. BW can take it away and go back to 4m, they can remove Dark Stability, hell they can even remove Emersion for all I care. But we better get more damage in return.

[Aelanis]

I know I'd do it in a heartbeat. LS was never meant to be used in the manner it is now, I don't even like it. BW can take it away and go back to 4m, they can remove Dark Stability, hell they can even remove Emersion for all I care. But we better get more damage in return.

 

No, please don't remove Emersion, I really like it, and it makes us able to function in Underlurker HM. Without it, we'd be the lone, gimped, unable to properly function melee class. Also, believe it or not, I've taken a liking to Low Slash at 30 meters in PvE, despite that it won't stun a boss: it's something to do as we speed in to close the gap.

[Hei_Atzfel]

No, please don't remove Emersion, I really like it, and it makes us able to function in Underlurker HM. Without it, we'd be the lone, gimped, unable to properly function melee class. Also, believe it or not, I've taken a liking to Low Slash at 30 meters in PvE, despite that it won't stun a boss: it's something to do as we speed in to close the gap.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Emersion. I had a hybrid build at 55 that specifically took Disjunction from Darkness for the sprint root break (that didn't give immunity back then). And losing Emersion in PvP would be a massive weakness against Vengeance, Madness, and Lightning specifically. I just mean that if, for whatever reason that was the cost of it, I'd be willing to live without it to be able to stand up to a freakin' AP PT when it comes to killing things. I'm sick hearing;

 

"Saeari stick to the healer like glue, PT you nuke star"

 

Most of the reason people are even glad to see Deception in a ranked environment is because I make a healer's life a living nightmare to get a cast off. I want to DPS too

[Iona_Var]

I have mixed emotions of having ls at 30m. Like Aelanis said it is nice to have to hit the boss with something as you try speeding in. But is it totally needed? Idk. We do need emersion though. I shudder to think where we'd be on hm underlurker without it....probably dead. But if they gave us more burst in exchange for reverting low slash back to 4m, I could live with that. Especially if they tied a 2s root to slow.

[Sarafain]

It might interest you that I created a Probability of Kill simulator for Deception. Especially against low mitigation targets, if you can control them for just a few GCDs, you have a pretty high chance of killing them with your opening burst, assuming no outside healing. A 4 second hard stun after your Spike wears off gives you a very high PK against those low mitigation targets, and a decent level against medium mitigation targets, without intervention from other players other than that stun. Now, the point of me telling you this is to tell you that I actually tested out the change to Crackling Blasts and Duplicity that you suggested, and unsurprisingly, they make PK skyrocket against all non-tank targets (stupid shields, high DR, and higher HP). With a loss of CC, that might be acceptable, but it's just something I'd like to make sure people know could be an issue.

 

This sim is not accurate, basically it assumes your opponent is just standing there with no DCD's used or up, and no one around to interfere. I like the fact it can measure burst for straight comparison against other classes.

 

For example let’s consider the following situation. Please understand that every ability I will be listing is being used to prevent a cast from an enemy healer (especially potent in a group ranked/solo ranked setting). Also keep in mind that cast interrupts are being averaged at 1s into the cast so as to optimize the length of healer shutdown.

 

Cast Attempt (CA) -> Jolt (interrupt) -> CA (after 5s) -> Low Slash -> CA (after 5s) -> Overload -> CA (after 1s since KB doesn’t CC or give lockout) -> Hardstun OR Whirlwind (if taking Haunted Dreams) -> CA (after 5s OR 9s) -> Jolt

 

Taking GCD of 1.5s into account with those CC/interupts and attempted casts that is a grand total of 17 seconds OR 21 seconds (depending if you use WW or Electrocute last) that a Deception Assassin can prevent a healer from doing any form of casting (read: serious/burst healing) before the enemy has a whitebar and is immune to any further forms of CC shutdown, and the Assassin can do this ALL BY THEMSELVES. If you add a second DPS with their own interrupt the timer becomes even more unreasonable. A big reason this is so crazy is due to Low Slash acting at 30 meters, meaning that even if the healer keeps their kiting up well they can still be locked down fairly regularly by a Deception Assassin simply from the range on LS.

 

It shouldn't matter if Sin/Shadow's have the ability to create such a long CC chain, PvP is not 1 on 1. During the CC chain if the Sin/Shad is not interrupted then they deserve to get the CC off. Also 7.5 of those 17 to 21 seconds your GCD's are going into CC, leaving 6 to 9 GCD's to do damage. There is also a matter of staying in range to keep the CC up, not only could a 2nd opponent stop the CC chain but they could also run far enough from the CC'd target so you could do no damage to them.

 

I'm not arguing Deceptions utilities or burst is not significant just that both scenarios listed show potential vs reality when against skilled players. Stealth lets Sin/Shadow's pick off stragglers and try to make both suggestions possible but when was the last time you saw a Sin/Shadow pull off a combo like that against a skilled player.

 

Deception IMO only needs a slight (5%) increase to DPS

Edited June 14, 2015 by Sarafain

[Hei_Atzfel]

It shouldn't matter if Sin/Shadow's have the ability to create such a long CC chain, PvP is not 1 on 1. During the CC chain if the Sin/Shad is not interrupted then they deserve to get the CC off.

 

Please explain to me how you can interrupt instant abilities.

[Sarafain]

Please explain to me how you can interrupt instant abilities.

 

I didn't say interrupt I said break the chain. If you are stunned 1-2 seconds before you're next cc goes you that will give a healer 1 GCD or more to heal or even cc you again.

[Aelanis]

This sim is not accurate, basically it assumes your opponent is just standing there with no DCD's used or up, and no one around to interfere. I like the fact it can measure burst for straight comparison against other classes.

No, it's not perfect, but it's actually not too bad. Let's look at the assumptions needed to make it accurate, though.

 

The chain tested is Spike > Discharge > Ball Lightning > VS > Maul > Assassinate (if damageDone > 0.7*maxHP, else 0). 6 Globals of moves. Spike gives you control for the first 1.3 globals, which means you need 4.7 more. Throw in an Electrocute, and you get 1.7 more, meaning you're just short 3 globals, 2 if you consider that you only need to launch and land Assassinate before they can react. So if an ally can throw out a single hard stun, you have an effective stun lock for your entire combo, no chance to pop cooldowns. Having 1 person coordinate 1 hard stun for you isn't so tough. The only issue here is that when you launch your final stun, it will whitebar them, and they can stunbreak and pop defensives. But by that point, if this analysis puts you at a decent kill chance, they're starting on a pretty rough playing field, especially if your buddy sticks around.

[Hei_Atzfel]

I didn't say interrupt I said break the chain. If you are stunned 1-2 seconds before you're next cc goes you that will give a healer 1 GCD or more to heal or even cc you again.

 

That's beside the point. The point is that it shouldn't be possible whatsoever to CC chain someone that hard solo.

[Sarafain]

Please explain to me how you can interrupt instant abilities.

 

I didn't say interrupt I said break the chain. If you are stunned 1-2 seconds before you're next cc goes you that will give a healer 1 GCD or more to heal or even cc you again.

 

That's beside the point. The point is that it shouldn't be possible whatsoever to CC chain someone that hard solo.

 

You went from saying it couldn't be done saying it shouldn't be possible. I did say interupt not break, you were right. I also won't say there are not times where taking yourself out of combat to CC isn't worth it and I'm not saying Decep CC utility is anything but powerful.

 

In a 2 v 1 scenario you're spending too many GCD's on CC and will die against an equal geared/skilled opponent even if they don't break the cc chain because they're getting in more attacks as basically every other CC of Decep goes into CC. 2 v 2 a co-ordinated CC chain will last just as long and once someone's full resolve what does it matter if it was done by 1 or 2 people, there is also the chance to have your opponent flip the CC chain.

 

Truthfully I think Decep's control is in a good spot. It also takes a fairly high player skill to pull it off and balances against how many GCD's are spent to keep the chain going.

[Hei_Atzfel]

You went from saying it couldn't be done saying it shouldn't be possible.

 

Ummmmm, what? I've said the same thing this entire time; that it's massively OP for Deception to be able to lock down someone (BY THEMSELVES) for as long as they can.

[Sarafain]

We're off topic and of different opinions. You believe Decep's control is too good for a DPS increase without loosing some of that control and I think it's irrelevant.

 

Truthfully Decep/Infil is in a good spot, it just falls behind other burst spec's in PvE.

[Iona_Var]

I have to agree that we have a bit too much control and I'm more than willing to trade some of it for a dps increase.

[Hei_Atzfel]

We're off topic and of different opinions. You believe Decep's control is too good for a DPS increase without loosing some of that control and I think it's irrelevant.

 

Truthfully Decep/Infil is in a good spot, it just falls behind other burst spec's in PvE.

 

If we were given more burst without losing control the spec would be stupidly OP, and I think LOL Slash is OP anyways so it's a logical trade to give up LOL Slash for a bit more burst.

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

Guess I could throw my 2 cents in here. I'll speak from a PvP perspective.

 

In my own opinion, Deception is fine for Endgame PvP, which is Solo/Group Ranked. I have done hard swaps as Deception in group ranked with varying success, the biggest benefit is the control the spec brings moreso than it's burst. In solo ranked I have effectively 1v2'd and even 1v3'd and won as both Deception and Hatred, against some of the highest ranked players of season 4 and season 5, and I will say, it was easier to do it in Deception due to having the ability to effectively control 2+ targets with CC while I burst the third and having about 36%+ DR after passive buffs makes me that much more tanky than when I'm in Hatred in the same scenario. So from a survivabilty perspective and control perspective, Deception is great for PvP.

 

 

For a damage perspective, it's not "bad" but not great either compare to some other burst classes. The only buff I would personally appreciate would be having the Blackout utility that reduces the CD by 15 seconds made Passive in the skill tree. This would be a small buff but would go a long way. From a PvP perspective only, it would probably increase the amount of blackouts you could do in 1 round by maybe 2 or 3 which would go a long way both offensively for the force regen and defensively for the DR buff. Since we do less burst than most other burst specs and are melee, the added DR would go a long way considering we're in the middle of the battle if we plan on doing anything useful.

 

That's just my opinion though.

[Sarafain]

If we were given more burst without losing control the spec would be stupidly OP, and I think LOL Slash is OP anyways so it's a logical trade to give up LOL Slash for a bit more burst.

 

I can see your point. I don't want the classes burst to be increase but rather it's sustained through the use of less Saber Strikes and possibly an increase to Surging Charge damage. Something over the course of 30 seconds isn't noticeable but after 2 minutes adds up.