Discussion on the state of Deception/Infiltration

[Iona_Var]

I know some people are afraid of giving deception alot of burst because assassins have really good utilities at their disposal and although it's kind of an invalid argument, we are a stealth class. But really deception is one of lowest burst specs in game.

[Aelanis]

Good points however you're incorrect in saying Deception doesn't lack burst because it does right along with sustained dps, both by small margins that wouldn't require much of a bump to correct.

 

Well, you can say we lack burst, and be wrong, or you can say we lack burst relative to the other burst classes, and suddenly be right again. But that's your choice. Also, if you think I don't think we need a sustained boost in both specs, you might want to go and look at my post history. There's probably only a small army of posts where I try to impress upon people the current problems with the Assassin class, typically with priority one or two being that it simply can't keep up. In fact, here's a primer on my feelings on the matter.

[Iona_Var]

We do have burst and we most certainly can provide the damage needed to clear every boss in this tier of ops. But it would help if we got a little more burst and a slight increase to our sustained. Assassin dps as a whole needs a "new ability, unique to the class" that actually benefits us in raids and makes us attractive to progression raid teams.

[djcetra]

Well, you can say we lack burst, and be wrong, or you can say we lack burst relative to the other burst classes, and suddenly be right again. But that's your choice.

 

Put an end to the word-play bs, everyone knows Decep has burst and why the hell would I not be talking in comparison to other classes? I've played Deception since Beta and it's always been my main through the best and worst of times.

 

Also, if you think I don't think we need a sustained boost in both specs, you might want to go and look at my post history. There's probably only a small army of posts where I try to impress upon people the current problems with the Assassin class, typically with priority one or two being that it simply can't keep up. In fact, here's a primer on my feelings on the matter.

 

I'm not going to go through your post history, your short summary here is fine. Above you provided that you and I agree on that aspect and in my eyes that's all that I care about. It's nice that you've made attempts to push these suggestions to the devs. Personally I usually don't post much on forums as someone who's worked for both AAA publishers (ATVI and EA) as well as with some of the dev teams on their products for years in the past, I know how much they really don't give a crap about what people suggest or push as a community on forums most of the time. The perspective on that side of the fence is quite different as you would might imagine and most developers while they'll sing the song and dance the dance, take what the community cries about like a grain of salt and rarely buy into the idea that it's players know what's better for their game then they do despite most of them not really playing it outside of work and sometimes rarely even there.

 

Anyway, keep up the good fight for Deception. To me it should logically always be the spec the most effort and prioritization goes to in regards to Assassin/Shadow because it playstyle fits the description. I don't mind playing Hatred here and there but I really find it pointless when I can just hop on my Madness Sorc and be the real deal when it comes to dots and casting.

 

Cheers:o

Edited July 28, 2015 by djcetra

[Aelanis]

Put an end to the word-play bs, everyone knows Decep has burst and why the hell would I not be talking in comparison to other classes? I've played Deception since Beta and it's always been my main through the best and worst of times.

I only say that because there are people really, truly convinced that Deception's burst is bad, or almost nonexistent, which is just not true. Take my Assassin in a 192/198 mix of story mode and hard mode gear. I've dropped back to back to back globals of 11k+ globals. Get into execute and I've dropped 61.5k damage in 5 globals. At the cost of a little bit of its sustained damage, Deception can burst whenever it wants, and with some pretty harsh hits. Other classes just have more extreme burst because it comes further apart (though why Marksmanship gets 50% autocrits on Ambush still eludes me).

I'm not going to go through your post history, your short summary here is fine. Above you provided that you and I agree on that aspect and in my eyes that's all that I care about. It's nice that you've made attempts to push these suggestions to the devs. Personally I usually don't post much on forums as someone who's worked for both AAA publishers (ATVI and EA) as well as with some of the dev teams on their products for years in the past, I know how much they really don't give a crap about what people suggest or push as a community on forums most of the time. The perspective on that side of the fence is quite different as you would might imagine and most developers while they'll sing the song and dance the dance, take what the community cries about like a grain of salt and rarely buy into the idea that it's players know what's better for their game then they do despite most of them not really playing it outside of work and sometimes rarely even there.

 

Anyway, keep up the good fight for Deception. To me it should logically always be the spec the most effort and prioritization goes to in regards to Assassin/Shadow because it playstyle fits the description. I don't mind playing Hatred here and there but I really find it pointless when I can just hop on my Madness Sorc and be the real deal when it comes to dots and casting.

 

Cheers:o

 

I know it doesn't happen often, but there are quite a few suggestions that started in the community that I've seen go into game in the past few years. Unfortunately, they're also oftentimes stripped of things that went with them that would have balanced things out a little more, but I've also seen changes that are exactly what have been suggested. There have been, though not always publicly visible, times where there has been amazing Developer/Community interaction and conversation, but it's been limited to a select few people, and mostly in a vacuum where changes to other classes have been almost impossible to see. I'm still hopeful that in the 4.0 Beta, if they have one (I'm curious as to whether they're willing to leak some of what they've been working on), will see some amazing back-and-forth between the devs and the community. If they put Rob Hinkle and Dave Demaree on that, I see no reason why it wouldn't, as both seem to actually understand the rotations of classes on at least a basic level, and very much understand how to model a Discipline.

[mmerry]

^^

Hopefully this is the case with 4.0. I do hope that if they do the private testing that they include a more diverse portion of the community. I think if there was more active PvP testing we could have avoided the PvP class imbalances instead of just (mainly) focusing on pve stuff.

[djcetra]

I only say that because there are people really, truly convinced that Deception's burst is bad, or almost nonexistent, which is just not true. Take my Assassin in a 192/198 mix of story mode and hard mode gear. I've dropped back to back to back globals of 11k+ globals. Get into execute and I've dropped 61.5k damage in 5 globals. At the cost of a little bit of its sustained damage, Deception can burst whenever it wants, and with some pretty harsh hits. Other classes just have more extreme burst because it comes further apart (though why Marksmanship gets 50% autocrits on Ambush still eludes me).

 

 

I know it doesn't happen often, but there are quite a few suggestions that started in the community that I've seen go into game in the past few years. Unfortunately, they're also oftentimes stripped of things that went with them that would have balanced things out a little more, but I've also seen changes that are exactly what have been suggested. There have been, though not always publicly visible, times where there has been amazing Developer/Community interaction and conversation, but it's been limited to a select few people, and mostly in a vacuum where changes to other classes have been almost impossible to see. I'm still hopeful that in the 4.0 Beta, if they have one (I'm curious as to whether they're willing to leak some of what they've been working on), will see some amazing back-and-forth between the devs and the community. If they put Rob Hinkle and Dave Demaree on that, I see no reason why it wouldn't, as both seem to actually understand the rotations of classes on at least a basic level, and very much understand how to model a Discipline.

 

I do appreciate how you seem to put a positive spin on your replies and remain hopeful, I don't however have the faith that you do but I hope you're right. There has been that blue moon where they have taken direction from the community before however it's my opinion that it didn't turn out so well for the game when they did (at least for assassins). Certain people appointed as ambassadors if you will were not cut out for the task and pushed for ridiculous changes to this class that made madness/hatred OP beyond belief to push their own agenda either for lulz or just plain incompetence. From the other side of the fence, Devs/Producers and company are aware players from the community try to manipulate the system in these ways which is one reason why feedback is taken so lightly.

 

My comments are strictly in regards to PvP, I haven't raided since Vanilla WoW in any MMO it just doesn't tickle my fancy anymore though I've considered it here and in FFXIV ARR. For a while now I've formed more of an opinion that Dev Teams should take a different approach to balance in an MMO between PVP/PVE, instead of trying to tweak dmg etc. between the two I think they should just create talent trees or abilities catered to each style of gameplay and lock the ability to use certain trees/abilities out for the modes they're not intended to simplify the issues.

[Iona_Var]

I'm hoping they will let us test class changes atleast prior to the release of 4.0. I can understand them not wanting to put any of the new story content on the pts, or at least be very restrictive about it, but we need to test class changes before they go into effect. Nobody wants another 3.0, where some classes are FOTM in one side of the game but below average on the other side.

[Aelanis]

I'm hoping they will let us test class changes atleast prior to the release of 4.0. I can understand them not wanting to put any of the new story content on the pts, or at least be very restrictive about it, but we need to test class changes before they go into effect. Nobody wants another 3.0, where some classes are FOTM in one side of the game but below average on the other side.

 

That wouldn't have been so bad if some of the PTS folks from last time around had been honest about numbers they were getting or results they were seeing.

[Iona_Var]

I just want there to be testing before they implement their changes in 4.0 and actually listen to us when we say if we are UP or OP, or if some other thing needs to be changed.

[LudhaninRolgge]

So I wonder. Since we all agree that we need a bit more of damage, what would it take to make the spec equal to the average DPS (4982 in revanite, calculated by Goblin_Lackeyhere) ?

[Aelanis]

So I wonder. Since we all agree that we need a bit more of damage, what would it take to make the spec equal to the average DPS (4982 in revanite, calculated by Goblin_Lackeyhere) ?

 

A ~2.9ish percent dps increase could be achieved in a lot of ways. It's a matter of keeping it in check between game modes.

[LudhaninRolgge]

A ~2.9ish percent dps increase could be achieved in a lot of ways. It's a matter of keeping it in check between game modes.

 

What do you think would be the best way to achieve it ? A rough damage buff seems to be the easiest. A small buff to Ball Lightning ? How much should that buff be to actually achieve the desired overall dps ?

[Aelanis]

What do you think would be the best way to achieve it ? A rough damage buff seems to be the easiest. A small buff to Ball Lightning ? How much should that buff be to actually achieve the desired overall dps ?

 

Easiest? Yes. Best? Not at all. Boost Ball Lightning damage and you increase burst (somewhat significantly). You'd need a roughly 12% boost to Ball Lightning damage to achieve the desired boost. That would be a pretty decent increase in opening burst. On the other hand, if you were to add a secondary damage component to a move, you could avoid increasing burst, especially if you picked something like Saber Strike.

 

Of course, as you add damage to a spec below the average, the average goes up. You then have to add more damage, which makes the average go up again. I'd tell you to ask Zeno about it, but he's been dead a while.

[LudhaninRolgge]

Easiest? Yes. Best? Not at all. Boost Ball Lightning damage and you increase burst (somewhat significantly). You'd need a roughly 12% boost to Ball Lightning damage to achieve the desired boost. That would be a pretty decent increase in opening burst. On the other hand, if you were to add a secondary damage component to a move, you could avoid increasing burst, especially if you picked something like Saber Strike.

 

Of course, as you add damage to a spec below the average, the average goes up. You then have to add more damage, which makes the average go up again. I'd tell you to ask Zeno about it, but he's been dead a while.

 

Fair point well made. I don't really know how bursty is deception. The only other burst spec I've tried is a focus guardian (and they need a slight buff too). But if you reduced the difference between top and bottom dps, the average should not be a problem to reach. I mean, according to Goblin_Lackey, there is a 300 dps difference in average. That's not balance for me, but I could be mistaking.

What would, for you, be the best solution ?

[Iona_Var]

The best solution is to have all classes parse within ~200 dps of each other but sadly that won't ever happen. I would like to see the damage from spike(spinning kick) moved to another ability or abilities. Deception can be pretty bursty but if fails in comparison to the other burst specs, especially ranged burst specs. I feel our burst needs to at least be brought up to what concealment can do and go from there. Above all, we need to be able to test changes before they are implemented so we don't go into 4.0 and have discharge hit for 20k or something and then get nerfed into the ground.(a slight exaggeration but you get the idea.)

[Aelanis]

The best solution is to have all classes parse within ~200 dps of each other but sadly that won't ever happen. I would like to see the damage from spike(spinning kick) moved to another ability or abilities. Deception can be pretty bursty but if fails in comparison to the other burst specs, especially ranged burst specs. I feel our burst needs to at least be brought up to what concealment can do and go from there. Above all, we need to be able to test changes before they are implemented so we don't go into 4.0 and have discharge hit for 20k or something and then get nerfed into the ground.(a slight exaggeration but you get the idea.)

 

Except that that 200 dps number is misleading. If we ever get to the point where abilities are doing 40k damage on non-criticals regularly, a 200 dps difference would be nigh impossible, as it's a drop in the bucket. On the other hand, in 1.0, when 1k dps was amazing, a +/-200 dps swing was easy to keep it within. If you're going to try to achieve some band that they all fall in, it needs to be percentage based, such as +/-5%. That's much more reasonable.

 

For what I would do? Add a 6 second dot to Maul that deals roughly 1.5% of our current sustained DPS. You also have to consider that those mean numbers you're looking at very poorly underestimate how much damage an Assassin can do in the execute phase in a real fight, because both execute phase rotations are harshly force negative.

[LudhaninRolgge]

For what I would do? Add a 6 second dot to Maul that deals roughly 1.5% of our current sustained DPS. You also have to consider that those mean numbers you're looking at very poorly underestimate how much damage an Assassin can do in the execute phase in a real fight, because both execute phase rotations are harshly force negative.

 

A bit like force exhaustion for the focus guardian then. Interesting idea. Would it be too much to ask for a little mathematical explanation about how it'll impact our dps ?

[Aelanis]

A bit like force exhaustion for the focus guardian then. Interesting idea. Would it be too much to ask for a little mathematical explanation about how it'll impact our dps ?

 

Well, you want to limit burst, so spreading anything out over time helps with that. You also want to limit its effect on our kill window, so placing it on something we use towards the end of our burst window (Maul) will have the least effect on the damage we deal in burst situations. From there, we simply need to know how much of a dps boost we want out of it. An ability's contribution to our DPS is (total damage dealt)/(average cooldown). Since we're tying it to Maul, we know the average cooldown (10.5 seconds), and we know the contribution we want (~200 DPS for argument's sake), so we want it to deal roughly 2,100 damage over the duration. With a 9 second duration, we can eliminate most cases of clipping the dot, and reduce burst versus a 6 second dot, so each tick would then average, if it ticked once per second for about 234 damage. From there, it's simply a matter of calculating average critical hit rates and gear level you're targeting in order to determine the ability coefficients for it.

[Iona_Var]

You want to limit burst so it's not OP but don't limit it so much as to make it undesirable. Deception should always(ideally) burst harder and faster than hatred, but not have the sustained damage of hatred.

[LudhaninRolgge]

Well, you want to limit burst, so spreading anything out over time helps with that. You also want to limit its effect on our kill window, so placing it on something we use towards the end of our burst window (Maul) will have the least effect on the damage we deal in burst situations. From there, we simply need to know how much of a dps boost we want out of it. An ability's contribution to our DPS is (total damage dealt)/(average cooldown). Since we're tying it to Maul, we know the average cooldown (10.5 seconds), and we know the contribution we want (~200 DPS for argument's sake), so we want it to deal roughly 2,100 damage over the duration. With a 9 second duration, we can eliminate most cases of clipping the dot, and reduce burst versus a 6 second dot, so each tick would then average, if it ticked once per second for about 234 damage. From there, it's simply a matter of calculating average critical hit rates and gear level you're targeting in order to determine the ability coefficients for it.

 

I didn't like it in the first place because in my head burst spec can't have dot, but the way you're selling it, it really seems interresting. And since you're tying it to the end of the burst window, is it fair to assume that you consider our burst the be good ? As I said, I haven't really tried our burst spec and can't compare.

[Iona_Var]

I didn't like it in the first place because in my head burst spec can't have dot, but the way you're selling it, it really seems interresting. And since you're tying it to the end of the burst window, is it fair to assume that you consider our burst the be good ? As I said, I haven't really tried our burst spec and can't compare.

 

Our burst isn't terrible, which is like the only reason aside from deception's extremely high DR that we are still somewhat viable for progression raiding. Now against other burst specs, we are almost dead last in terms of burst. We could certainly use more but not so much that people QQ about us in pvp even more.

[Aelanis]

I didn't like it in the first place because in my head burst spec can't have dot, but the way you're selling it, it really seems interresting. And since you're tying it to the end of the burst window, is it fair to assume that you consider our burst the be good ? As I said, I haven't really tried our burst spec and can't compare.

 

It's hardly bad, but we're not high up on the pecking order for burst. However, we have far more control than those specs, stealth, and better passive defensives than every single one of them. To get more burst, we'd have to give something up, and people really don't like doing that.

[Iona_Var]

It's hardly bad, but we're not high up on the pecking order for burst. However, we have far more control than those specs, stealth, and better passive defensives than every single one of them. To get more burst, we'd have to give something up, and people really don't like doing that.

 

Personally, I'll gladly give up some control in exchange for more burst. Thing is, what would people not mind losing?

[LudhaninRolgge]

Personally, I'll gladly give up some control in exchange for more burst. Thing is, what would people not mind losing?

 

I wouldn't mind losing some control. But then again, if you take some control from us, all the pvper are gonna whine about that.