First evaluation of Watchman / Anni 3.2.1.

[EenVooral]

So, just ran my 1 billionth parse today (it feels like, at least), and did my best post-3.2.1 as shown below.

 

http://parsely.io/parser/view/32500

 

By far not the best parse (even considering my gear (192s/198s, 6 pc set bonus, no crit-all power, no alacrity and not BIS), and a few mistakes), but a place to start in order to refine the original parse I posted early in this thread. With this parse, I am within 150 dps of my best parse in the same gear pre-patch (not on parsely). So getting closer! LOL

 

Any and all suggestions (and free 198/204 gear, if anyone is so inclined) is welcomed!

 

*Edit: Should've mentioned that when I had Master Strike "windows," I let it go full channel as much as possible...just figure that the last hit of MS is still more than the combo of the first hit/burn of Cauterize. But needs refinement. Additionally, midway through parse I had a brain fart, and started prioritizing Cauterize over OH Saber. Felt a little smoother, but am sure was a dps loss.

Edited May 27, 2015 by EenVooral

[cirruz]

Devs once gave numbers that said sth like:

 

Melee sustained > Melee Burst = Range Sustained > Range Burst.

 

Imo Melee Burst should be higher than Range sustained, though.

 

So Dot Shadows should be on par with Watchman. Can's speak about Dot scoundrels, I play mine as burst exclusively. Vigilance Guardians are a hybrid spec imo: They are pretty bursty and thus not a true sustained melee spec. Plus: They have AoE Splash damage, even dotspread at that. Same with dot Vanguards, they are AoE monsters :-) Plus Vanguards should be in the middle of melee and ranged dps to start with, because that's what they are: The amount of DPS you can still do on a Vanguard from 10m is insane! Even from 30m you're still doing something, whereas a Sentinel does Double Saber Throw, then 15 secs nothing ;-)

 

Bottom line is: In my book the sustained DPS of a spec should be highest if it's a pure single target melee spec. If it's got splash AoE, its sustained dps should be lower, especially if it doesn't even have to change the rotation for it. And the more ranged capability a spec has, the lower its dps should be. Hence my complaining about dps loss. You might justify it by burstier dot spread in this build but, as you can see in this thread, nobody wants that on Watchman.

 

I remember the devs said something along the line of pure dps classes should be up to 5% ahead of others, and I've seen them saying something along the lines you mentioned as well, but i haven't seen any distinction made between pure dps and melee dps, burst and sustained alike. How much in percentage is melee supposed to be ahead of ranged anyways?

I'd say you're spot on though with the VGs, guardians and scoundrels as how they play atm, but the class balance seems to be in constant motion though and I'm not sure BW knows how their classes measure up, but their ideals on them seems to be a burst and sustained spec for each class, because I've never seen them giving life to "hybrids" or "semi-melee semi-ranged", these things seems to be more funky than real, if that makes any sense.

I don't really play a sentinel or shadow but, a vanguard, guardian and scoundrel all have different rotations in aoe scenarios for maximized dps, all can provide a burst aoe and sustained aoe, and some better than others. I'm generally confused and can't make heads or tails of it all.

But what exactly makes a shadow different from the rest in regards to this? They've got a burst spec and a sustained spec with more or less splash on force in balance, same with sentinels really and force sweep although it's not as powerful as vigilant thrust.

Edited May 27, 2015 by cirruz

[Katendal]

So, just ran my 1 billionth parse today (it feels like, at least), and did my best post-3.2.1 as shown below.

 

http://parsely.io/parser/view/32500

 

By far not the best parse (even considering my gear (192s/198s, 6 pc set bonus, no crit-all power, no alacrity and not BIS), and a few mistakes), but a place to start in order to refine the original parse I posted early in this thread. With this parse, I am within 150 dps of my best parse in the same gear pre-patch (not on parsely). So getting closer! LOL

 

Any and all suggestions (and free 198/204 gear, if anyone is so inclined) is welcomed!

 

*Edit: Should've mentioned that when I had Master Strike "windows," I let it go full channel as much as possible...just figure that the last hit of MS is still more than the combo of the first hit/burn of Cauterize. But needs refinement. Additionally, midway through parse I had a brain fart, and started prioritizing Cauterize over OH Saber. Felt a little smoother, but am sure was a dps loss.

 

I've been practasing half the day aswell, and while I was about 400 dps down when I started I am now doing the same dps as before patch, you need to forget about the rotation and dot length, and build yourself a priority list. I found with trying to keep dots up 100% of the time and fit everything else in around it was a pretty big dps loss, However by making certain things a priority over others Im now back over 4600dps (2 piece 186 4 pice 192/198 mix with some pretty horrid mods)

 

Its basically merciless slash on cd, melt as it drops off (not when it procs) master strike on cd, if any of those get in the way of refreshing cauterize, skip cauterize until you can you have a place to refresh it. I found putting mastersrike in when melt procs was perfect timing, to then refresh melt, and try and fit the cauterize in before the merciless slash, but not at the expense of delaying it.

 

That being said, its a bloody horrible build now, and alot less fun than it used to be.

[TACeMossie]

I've been practasing half the day aswell, and while I was about 400 dps down when I started I am now doing the same dps as before patch, you need to forget about the rotation and dot length, and build yourself a priority list. I found with trying to keep dots up 100% of the time and fit everything else in around it was a pretty big dps loss, However by making certain things a priority over others Im now back over 4600dps (2 piece 186 4 pice 192/198 mix with some pretty horrid mods)

 

Its basically merciless slash on cd, melt as it drops off (not when it procs) master strike on cd, if any of those get in the way of refreshing cauterize, skip cauterize until you can you have a place to refresh it. I found putting mastersrike in when melt procs was perfect timing, to then refresh melt, and try and fit the cauterize in before the merciless slash, but not at the expense of delaying it.

 

That being said, its a bloody horrible build now, and alot less fun than it used to be.

 

Well, here's how I am getting used to the new rotation...

 

http://i.imgur.com/faOmymS.png

 

Well, it worked for IO!

 

I'll worry about adding in Zen, Inspiration, Valorous Call, Adrenals, etc... later on

 

I literally just follow that rotation. Surprisingly, After about 10 attempts I still haven't run out of resources. My only issue is the opener leading into this, but I've never been good at that and always failed horribly at it and its why I don't play watchman.

[EenVooral]

 

Its basically merciless slash on cd, melt as it drops off (not when it procs) master strike on cd, if any of those get in the way of refreshing cauterize, skip cauterize until you can you have a place to refresh it. I found putting mastersrike in when melt procs was perfect timing, to then refresh melt, and try and fit the cauterize in before the merciless slash, but not at the expense of delaying it.

 

That being said, its a bloody horrible build now, and alot less fun than it used to be.

 

I'll try that...about the only thing I haven't tried yet....and AGREED. LOL

 

And Kwerty...OMG...your toolbar looks like the inside of my head right now!

[kingsvell]

I have some questions about the gear...

My current stats is:

http://i.imgur.com/fHAlJhY.jpg

 

With Deceiver implant mk-1

revanite Mk V implant

and Deceiver mk1 earpiece

 

And i got this poor parse: http://parsely.io/parser/view/32588

 

Whats is going on? Before 3.2.1 i did 4.5 :X Its not high, but its something...

 

My gear is correct?!

[Katendal]

I have some questions about the gear...

My current stats is:

http://i.imgur.com/fHAlJhY.jpg

 

With Deceiver implant mk-1

revanite Mk V implant

and Deceiver mk1 earpiece

 

And i got this poor parse: http://parsely.io/parser/view/32588

 

Whats is going on? Before 3.2.1 i did 4.5 :X Its not high, but its something...

 

My gear is correct?!

 

 

Your APM is quite low, and looking at this, you use anniliate every 7.5 seconds, that should be used on cd (6 seconds) and rend is averaging 20 secs, its a 15 sec dot, and rupture every 13 seconds, when its a 6 sec dot.

 

 

Anni has to be used on CD, thats most of your dmg, a while there are reasons to delay refreshing rupture, there is never any reason to delay rend, that should be refreshed as it falls off.

[Mithrillll]

I'm trying to work off of a priority system of Merciless, Force Melt, Master Strike, Cauterize, which Overload Saber being used on cooldown. Slash basically became non-existent and Twin-Saber Throw was used pretty sparingly. Best parse I've gotten with it so far is 4840 seen here http://parsely.io/parser/view/32657 (no Adrenals). Still about 250 dps lower previous highest of 5105, although Adrenals will make up some of that.

 

It's a definite DPS loss, but it seems to not be as bad as the 300-400 DPS loss some people were predicting.

[Cuiwe]

Devs once gave numbers that said sth like:

 

Melee sustained > Melee Burst = Range Sustained > Range Burst.

 

Imo Melee Burst should be higher than Range sustained, though.

 

So Dot Shadows should be on par with Watchman. Can's speak about Dot scoundrels, I play mine as burst exclusively. Vigilance Guardians are a hybrid spec imo: They are pretty bursty and thus not a true sustained melee spec. Plus: They have AoE Splash damage, even dotspread at that. Same with dot Vanguards, they are AoE monsters :-) Plus Vanguards should be in the middle of melee and ranged dps to start with, because that's what they are: The amount of DPS you can still do on a Vanguard from 10m is insane! Even from 30m you're still doing something, whereas a Sentinel does Double Saber Throw, then 15 secs nothing ;-)

 

Bottom line is: In my book the sustained DPS of a spec should be highest if it's a pure single target melee spec. If it's got splash AoE, its sustained dps should be lower, especially if it doesn't even have to change the rotation for it. And the more ranged capability a spec has, the lower its dps should be. Hence my complaining about dps loss. You might justify it by burstier dot spread in this build but, as you can see in this thread, nobody wants that on Watchman.

 

I just wanted to add a detail to that equation:

 

Pure melee sustained > pure melee burst >= melee sustained >= pure ranged sustained > melee burst = pure ranged burst = ranged sustained > ranged burst

 

Pure classes being: Sent/Mara and Slinger/Sniper

 

So...*** does Inn.ord still have the highest DPS? If this pretty logical equation applied, shouldn't Watchman/annhilation have the highest DPS?

 

Edit: the presence of the following lowers the expected DPS of a discipline:

 

-> presence of a heal/tank discipline within the same AC(if you don't have good DPS, you can do sth else-pures CAN'T!)

-> presence of range(self explanatory)

-> presence of Heavy Armour(self explanatory)

-> presence of a lot of CC(self explanatory)

-> presence of a good AoE(self explanatory)

-> presence of self heals/shields within a DPS discipline(say balance/serenity -> self explanatory)

 

If we go by that, it's perfectly fine that the bottom feeders are TkT, Arsenal and Balance. Because, let's face it: you guys really have a lot of those listed things. The tankier and the more useful you get, the lower DPS you should do. Simple.

 

So...*** is, again, Inn.ord where it is currently?

Edited May 28, 2015 by Cuiwe

[TACeMossie]

I just wanted to add a detail to that equation:

 

Pure melee sustained > pure melee burst >= melee sustained >= pure ranged sustained > melee burst = pure ranged burst = ranged sustained > ranged burst

 

Pure classes being: Sent/Mara and Slinger/Sniper

 

So...*** does Inn.ord still have the highest DPS? If this pretty logical equation applied, shouldn't Watchman/annhilation have the highest DPS?

 

Edit: the presence of the following lowers the expected DPS of a discipline:

 

-> presence of a heal/tank discipline within the same AC(if you don't have good DPS, you can do sth else-pures CAN'T!)

-> presence of range(self explanatory)

-> presence of Heavy Armour(self explanatory)

-> presence of a lot of CC(self explanatory)

-> presence of a good AoE(self explanatory)

-> presence of self heals/shields within a DPS discipline(say balance/serenity -> self explanatory)

 

If we go by that, it's perfectly fine that the bottom feeders are TkT, Arsenal and Balance. Because, let's face it: you guys really have a lot of those listed things. The tankier and the more useful you get, the lower DPS you should do. Simple.

 

So...*** is, again, Inn.ord where it is currently?

 

The "Pure" tag was ignored post 3.0 because the devs moved away from that philosophy. The DCDs + stuff are now balanced around the burst capabilities of the spec, as otherwise it is just plain stupid

 

The actual list of how it should be balanced:

 

MELEE SUSTAINED

MELEE SUSTAINED/BURST HYBRID + MELEE/RANGE HYBRID SUSTAINED (Combat, Ruffian, Plasmatech)

MELEE BURST + RANGED SUSTAINED

RANGED SUSTAINED/BURST HYBRID + MELEE/RANGE HYBRID BURST (Engineering, Tactics)

RANGED BURST

 

In that order. Moving up 1 slot gives ~2.5% more DPS (So ranged is 5% behind melee, and burst is 5% behind sustained)

Edited May 28, 2015 by TACeMossie

[Lalainnia]

Nothing to do with evaluation but I'm just curious why does this spec Watchmen /Anni have no periodic DR talent like most of the dot based specs or a sub 30% talent that increases dot damage like most dot based specs. Just seems odd to me is all.

[Cuiwe]

The "Pure" tag was ignored post 3.0 because the devs moved away from that philosophy. The DCDs + stuff are now balanced around the burst capabilities of the spec, as otherwise it is just plain stupid

 

The actual list of how it should be balanced:

 

MELEE SUSTAINED

MELEE SUSTAINED/BURST HYBRID + MELEE/RANGE HYBRID SUSTAINED (Combat, Ruffian, Plasmatech)

MELEE BURST + RANGED SUSTAINED

RANGED SUSTAINED/BURST HYBRID + MELEE/RANGE HYBRID BURST (Engineering, Tactics)

RANGED BURST

 

In that order. Moving up 1 slot gives ~2.5% more DPS (So ranged is 5% behind melee, and burst is 5% behind sustained)

 

So, why has the pure tag been ignored? ...cancel that! What do you think of them moving from pure Tag?

 

I mean, sentinels and snipers can't do anything else than DPS! They should have at least a solid 1% dmg increase above all others. Preferably, easier application of said dmg too(better resource management etc).

[Threjyan]

Although i have been a critic voice for the new changes, since they are up, the best is to try to make the best of it, if i want to continue to play watchmen in PvE.

 

After parsing a bit, i really did not felt the flow of the rotation. I felt frustrated.

 

So i decided to give it a go a few hours later on a sm ops. Then i liked it. Its diferent and the fact we get some returns on being attacked, some focus building, it seems more dynamic and makes you have to think in case something doesnt go as u wanted.

 

Im a noob so to say, and have yet to try this spec in HM (had no chance yesterday) , but from my perspective (a reasonable player) its not that bad as i thought.

 

Only with more time playing it i can reach a more defenitive opinion. So far its interesting.

 

From an average player.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Threjyan

[TACeMossie]

So, why has the pure tag been ignored? ...cancel that! What do you think of them moving from pure Tag?

 

I mean, sentinels and snipers can't do anything else than DPS! They should have at least a solid 1% dmg increase above all others. Preferably, easier application of said dmg too(better resource management etc).

 

Lets put it this way. If sentinels and gunslingers were ahead of the other classes, then what is the point of the other classes even having DPS options? I mean, a Sentinel or Gunslinger will outperform them, so there is no use to having them!

 

No, what the sentinel and marauder get is that 3rd spec, thus giving them access to all relevant raid buffs besides the force / tech one, which is easy enough to get. They also get a number of group utilities instead of just 1, such as a Marauders Bloodthirst + Predation, or a gunslinger having access to the stackable AoE shield as well as as the ability to cheese a LOT of mechanics due to roll.

 

Plus is you're crazy enough to still go Annihilation/Watchman, you get not only self-heals, but also raid heals!

[cirruz]

I suppose it's quite derailing but, what precisely does "ignored" mean here? That they've said that that philosophy doesn't exist anymore or that they simply haven't brought it up, which doesn't mean anything...? MIght just be me but I always have a hard time believing things unless the devs have actually pointed it out, explicitly.

Regardless of how the philosophy is though, how does one know in what order it should be between the dps classes and specs, from the highest to the lowest?

[TACeMossie]

I suppose it's quite derailing but, what precisely does "ignored" mean here? That they've said that that philosophy doesn't exist anymore or that they simply haven't brought it up, which doesn't mean anything...? MIght just be me but I always have a hard time believing things unless the devs have actually pointed it out, explicitly.

Regardless of how the philosophy is though, how does one know in what order it should be between the dps classes and specs, from the highest to the lowest?

 

While the VG specs and Operatives weren't included in their initial list, the list I gave was an exact replica (just with minor alterations) to what they said in a stream. They have also said (I believe in class questions) that their old philosophy will be going when they can overhaul the classes (which they did in 3.0), as well as mentioning in the streams that the philosophy is no longer in place.

[Eshou]

By no means am I a top-tier when it comes to my dps output (I was already trying to work kinks out from rotation), but has anyone considered the implications of changes inside of Ops? I've got HM tonight, and I'm a little worried about what my skill mechanics' changes will do when having to work around Ops mechanics. It feels to me it'll be an overall greater loss than just parsing on a dummy.

[FerkWork]

If they actually make Annihilation rotation reasonable I would consider giving my Mara a 204 MH. For now it stays on my Jugg tank.

[WheresMyWhisky]

Like Mistral I have moved away from a set rotation to a more priority based rotataion and I am no longer seeing 250 - 300 dps drop on the dummy

 

So I was going with the always clipping masterstrike route but it just didn't seem to work for me so I started out using something like

 

merciless -> melt -> cauterise -> filler -merciless -> filler -> cauterise > filler -> merciless -> filler -> cauterise - melt

 

So basically what tace etc suggested on PTS and got a 250 - 300 dps drop

 

I hated clipping MS for the filler so thought how could I change it to get in MS and when do the dots tick, this led me to think what is the downside of applying melt every 12 secs as I should just have got the 12 secs tick and its free at this point so what the hell also it ticks immediately upon application. So having decided that I thought when it conflicts with master strike how about I delay it and just shove in masterstrike it does mean I los a tick of melt but MS does way more damage than a tick of melt anyways. So I am currently going for this

 

merciless -> cauterise ->melt -> filler -> merciless -> cauterise -> filler -> filler -> merciless -> cauterise - melt-> filler

 

where if MS conflicts with melt I give it priority and just delay melt to the next block. It seems so far to me to be a much smaller dps loss, focus is silly tight at times though.

 

Oh I think this about a 100 dps loss roughly

 

As for ops I got on OK in a PUG I helped out on with my sent last night but they were only doing 1st 2 bosses for ravagers HM but dps was only about 100 down on sparky (4k on sparky but he was all over the place, no little doggies were hurt so that only sparky) and bulo (4k on bulo but again was an interesting pull so I am sure would have been better with regular team)

 

Waiting to be told off for re-applying melt early etc

Edited May 28, 2015 by WheresMyWhisky

[oofalong]

Tooltips have been bugged on and off since launch. It really isn't that big of a deal. Yes, its misleading and confusing. Yes, it should be fixed. But it doesn't mean the discipline is broken; it's broken for other reasons. In any event there are better ways to ensure that abilities are behaving the way they should than tooltips.

 

Update on this, the only tooltip that I could find that was bugged is the DoT damage of Rupture (and presumably Cauterize). It displays the total of 6 ticks of the DoT even though there are now only 3. Thus, the stated damage is 2x what it actually is.

 

And, I have created a bug report for it.

Edited May 28, 2015 by oofalong

[oofalong]

I see a lot of people posting about their observed DPS losses in absolute numbers as in my DPS is 250 lower. Instead can people link parses from pre/post 3.2.1 and/or talk about the % loss in DPS.

 

First off, it is very difficult to compare a single parse to a single parse as there is just too much RNG in any given parse so the logs will help uncover other discrepancies. Also, the change in DPS is a function of how close to optimally you played the spec previously. In other words, if I went from parsing 4,500 to 4,250 this DPS loss is much more significant than going from 5,150 to 4,900 even though both represent a 250 DPS loss.

[WheresMyWhisky]

Oofalong I would love to post old vs new parses but I am a slacker and haven't parsed much recently so although I will try dig some out when I get home from work not sure I will have any old pre 3.2.1 parses lying about, but in percentage terms since my old avg was about 4750 and I think my new one is around 4650 so that would be roughly 2.11%. But I haven't enough parses of the new one to be sure that is what I am averaging.

 

So demanding you theorycrafters

Edited May 28, 2015 by WheresMyWhisky
Cause I had to be more precise about the percentage

[Cybrias]

I'm by no means a Mara/Sentinel expert but I do quite extensive parsing on both and used to main both in pre 3.0 and post 3.0 raiding.

 

First of I started to test 3.2.1. with clipping ect and found it really clunky so I started tinkering and this is what I came up with - (Not seeing huge drop in DPS 100 if that much)

 

Sentinel Speak

Opener - Crap but always have been for me

Rotation with Zen 30 Stacks - Leap+OS - ForeMelt (Activate Zen) - Merc Slash - Cauterize - Full MasterStrike - Merc Slash - Cauterize - Filler for focus regen - Leap+OS - Forcemelt

 

Rotation in Between Zen stacks Leap+OS - ForeMelt (Activate Zen) - Merc Slash - Cauterize - Focus Abilities or if enough smash, twin throw ext - Merc Slash - Cauterize - Filler for focus regen - Leap+OS - Forcemelt.

 

I do clip Force Melt on last tick if at all and Cauterize is up 99% of the time. So yeah did quite a few parses and have to say really enjoying this. Even taking my Mara for HM run tonight

[Ardarell_Solo]

After long hours of testing I arrived at the conclusion that the best ways to play this build is indeed this stupid "rotation":

 

Merciless (+ Overload Saber every other block)

filler

Cauterize

filler

 

With Force Melts applied seamlessly as one of the fillers and a clipped (!!!) Master Strike on Cooldown (except Force Melt needs to be refreshed, than it moves to the next filler block).

 

This is too simple, boring and I HATE clipping Master Strike after one GCD.

 

I got 5163 with that rotation, but I hated every second of doing that parse :-(

 

You can find more details here.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Ardarell_Solo

[CameoCream]

Snip

 

Im impressed that people are parsing that high in the spec, even with 204MH.