Overpowered healings killing pvp

[leonlotus]

You may have to clear up that the only healing truly overpowered is from Sorcerers.

 

Merc healers can easily be shut down and killed. And while Operatives are much harder to kill than Mercs, they don't have much in the way of burst heal. They need to put 2 probes and then cast a heal, that takes forever. And of course, you can't even spam Injection and Waves because you run out of energy so easily

 

Meanwhile Sorcerers are free to put up ridiculous numbers because they are really hard to kill, have good burst healing, and zero energy management problems

 

Mercs heals are not Op, i agree.

But Scounds/Operatives have been part of most premades for a reason. Their area heal is not efficient, but their regens are. Even if some skills have cast, and have high cost, they work with optimal multipliers. Their numbers are great, if the task is heal a little attack team. And they can sometimes ignore 1 DPS focusing him, just kiting if hes well equiped.

Edited May 27, 2015 by leonlotus

[RifkaofRohan]

Why don't we just do away with healers and guards and allow dps classes to take over the entire game with their whining and awesome one-shot kills? *SMH*

 

The que needs to balance the classes and teams better for one thing and another issue is a huge disparity in gear. Fully rank geared players DPS or Heals SEEM op to everyone not wearing fully ranked gear. Bolster only takes players to 168 in unranked warzones. Everyone playing in ranked gear has an advantage over lesser geared players.

And of course, any team without a healer at all is going to cry that the healer is OP because their team is not getting any heals.

Each class has the ability to adjust stats to their own liking using gear, mods, and augments. Quite frankly some people are better at enhancing their class character simply by knowing which stats and how much make their class perform the best. That doesn't make a class op, that makes the player wise and using stats to make their class the best they can. You can't judge an entire class based on a hand-full of extraordinary players.

 

So many factors weigh in on this. Stop asking for entire classes to get nerfed because someone or a team wiped the floor with you because they were geared in the perfect stats for their class, better skilled, better balanced, or quicker with their skills that you are.

The exception to this is of course the huge elephant in the room: Rank geared players in Unranked warzones. 174 geared players against 168 or under geared players. These people have a valid reason to complain with the huge disparity in allowing fully rank geared players to participate in unranked warzones without bolster either equaling the higher geared players or reducing the higher gear to the 186 level to make the playing field equal.

 

People are leaving this game because their favorite class character, that they may have spent years working to perfect, gets nerfed due to the whining. The whining was misplaced onto classes being OP when in reality the disparity lies in unranked warzones with their unbalanced teams and unfair gear level disadvantage. And lastly, the miserable boredom of the ranked warzones that do not offer all of the games for rank geared players to have competitive and fun games against equally geared players. Ungeared and unranked geared players need to play together in unranked warzones and Ranked geared players need to have the same games available to them so they can play in their own rank geared warzones. This would solve a large amount of problems and complaints.

[ZygomaticBone]

Try rated pvp. In normal warzones pretty much every class can be ''overpowered'' if played properly because the quality of pvp there is quite low.

I did 2 operations on Jung Ma at a reasonable time qued for ranked the whole time. I got no pops. Ranked is a different story and I specifically mentioned that in my post. You have to realize that most of the PvP is not ranked PvP.

 

If it is so easy to DPs instead of heal, why are there so many DPs bads? Why can I put out easily over 1 million heals but so many DPs struggle to get past 800k?

 

Again I specifically mentioned regular war zones. Look at the overall DPs compared to overall heals and you cannot deny there are many more competent healers.

Edited May 27, 2015 by ZygomaticBone

[leonlotus]

Why don't we just do away with healers and guards and allow dps classes to take over the entire game with their whining and awesome one-shot kills? *SMH*

 

The que needs to balance the classes and teams better for one thing and another issue is a huge disparity in gear. Fully rank geared players DPS or Heals SEEM op to everyone not wearing fully ranked gear. Bolster only takes players to 168 in unranked warzones. Everyone playing in ranked gear has an advantage over lesser geared players.

And of course, any team without a healer at all is going to cry that the healer is OP because their team is not getting any heals.

Each class has the ability to adjust stats to their own liking using gear, mods, and augments. Quite frankly some people are better at enhancing their class character simply by knowing which stats and how much make their class perform the best. That doesn't make a class op, that makes the player wise and using stats to make their class the best they can. You can't judge an entire class based on a hand-full of extraordinary players.

 

So many factors weigh in on this. Stop asking for entire classes to get nerfed because someone or a team wiped the floor with you because they were geared in the perfect stats for their class, better skilled, better balanced, or quicker with their skills that you are.

The exception to this is of course the huge elephant in the room: Rank geared players in Unranked warzones. 174 geared players against 168 or under geared players. These people have a valid reason to complain with the huge disparity in allowing fully rank geared players to participate in unranked warzones without bolster either equaling the higher geared players or reducing the higher gear to the 186 level to make the playing field equal.

 

People are leaving this game because their favorite class character, that they may have spent years working to perfect, gets nerfed due to the whining. The whining was misplaced onto classes being OP when in reality the disparity lies in unranked warzones with their unbalanced teams and unfair gear level disadvantage. And lastly, the miserable boredom of the ranked warzones that do not offer all of the games for rank geared players to have competitive and fun games against equally geared players. Ungeared and unranked geared players need to play together in unranked warzones and Ranked geared players need to have the same games available to them so they can play in their own rank geared warzones. This would solve a large amount of problems and complaints.

 

With experience, it is not difficult to detect good guys playing unequiped alts, or average players with ranked sets. You just have to like Open PvP.

 

Aside from that kind of ability, you talk about Gear, and Premades, like thats the only problems which could possibly affect the PvP system. Thats not true.

 

If it were, we would not have so many patches in the late months just remaking same abilities. And we would not see some getting better, or worse multipliers.

You just have to go and see the recent changes for Maras/Sents to understand there was/is a problem with them. Devs have recognized this.

 

If a guy played PvP, making WZs and Open, before 3.0, he would only tell the game is balanced now because:

 

1 - He dont care about the game, so hes very casual and dont pay attention, or get informed.

2 - Hes afraid to loose OP multipliers.

 

Understand that he game is now PVE oriented. And balance was totally recreated since 3.0.

That brought messes in PvP, and too much "whinings", of course.

If you cant identiy changes for yourself, stay more alerted to news and especially to the patch notes.

Edited May 27, 2015 by leonlotus

[Xvicomte]

LoL... If 2 DPS can't kill one healer, you're not putting out enough damage... Sorry to say it, but that's a skill issue... The healer is higher skilled than the DPS

 

You're clearly a liar. Thanks.

[Wimbleton]

Lets be clear:

 

On WZs,

 

Aaaaannnnnnnnnnddddd stopped.

[Thaladan]

sorcs healer everywhere, not because sorc is too cool, just because this spec is OP, totally.

 

the nerf is obvious, they need to have back the old energy management. increase the cost of the heal like before (ex 100force for aoe heal, 60 dark heal, 45 dark infusion etc) and re-change consuming darkness.

 

and remove phase walk it's just RIDICULOUS

[skarvika]

LoL... If 2 DPS can't kill one healer, you're not putting out enough damage... Sorry to say it, but that's a skill issue... The healer is higher skilled than the DPS

2 words: immortality bubble

[Ruhun]

2 words: immortality bubble

 

You ever seen a lone sage pop bubble as soon as two maras show up?

 

The maras circle him like sharks. Its the best.

[DomiSotto]

2 words: immortality bubble

 

When I was a young Sorc, an old and wizened Sorc told me: "Doms, the bubble is a flag that tells everyone that now you can be killed. It's a bargaining chip." Well, he also told me to carry the nades for those three melee that circle bubbles. We did not have the Phase Walk back then. And the Wandering mend did not accidently heal the raid in Explosive Conflicts as well as your Novare Coast zone.

Edited January 27, 2016 by DomiSotto

[Ruhun]

When I was a young Sorc, an old and wizened Sorc told me: "Doms, the bubble is a flag that tells everyone that now you can be killed. It's a bargaining chip." Well, he also told me to carry the nades for those three melee that circle bubbles. We did not have the Phase Walk back then. And the Wandering mend did not accidently heal the raid in Explosive Conflicts as well as your Novare Coast zone.

 

My personal goal os to burst them down before they even get a chance to pop bubble. Some sorcs wait until the absolute last second, and it allows me to get that final crit in.

[DomiSotto]

The bubble that opens up in death spawn to lovingly protect your dead body is the risk you take by popping it too close to 35%. It is a great DCD, and I am keenly aware of how valuable it is after just playing from 25 to 55 on a DPS sorc.

 

I have no argument that Sorc healing need changes, and I am not sure why after a few adjustments and actual trials BioWARE ended up on the current version.

Edited January 27, 2016 by DomiSotto

[kissingaiur]

I love these threads popping up over and over again demanding a nerf to heals because they are "overpowered" when 90% of the healers currently in WZs are Sorcs. The problem isn't healing it's the effective HPS of Sorcs and the survivablity of Sorcs verse their HPS output.

 

Leave Operatives and Mercs out of this .

[Ruhun]

I love these threads popping up over and over again demanding a nerf to heals because they are "overpowered" when 90% of the healers currently in WZs are Sorcs. The problem isn't healing it's the effective HPS of Sorcs and the survivablity of Sorcs verse their HPS output.

 

Leave Operatives and Mercs out of this .

 

Not only do they out heal and out live Ops and Mercs, but they have un limited resources.

They used to have to sacrifice HP to restore MP/Force (whatever), now they can just spam the ability with the only draw back being their Force regen is reduced. Regen is not needed when you can use an ability that restores your resource without any real draw back to survivability.

[leonlotus]

I love these threads popping up over and over again demanding a nerf to heals because they are "overpowered" when 90% of the healers currently in WZs are Sorcs. The problem isn't healing it's the effective HPS of Sorcs and the survivablity of Sorcs verse their HPS output.

 

Leave Operatives and Mercs out of this .

 

 

Not only do they out heal and out live Ops and Mercs, but they have un limited resources.

They used to have to sacrifice HP to restore MP/Force (whatever), now they can just spam the ability with the only draw back being their Force regen is reduced. Regen is not needed when you can use an ability that restores your resource without any real draw back to survivability.

 

Agreed. Mercs and Ops are currently out of this.

And the survibaility plus endless Force are the greater issues.

 

Disciplines system is adding to the problem. The passives are too few.

With no "build" the game is too previsible and totaly ruled by right numbers of FOTM in WZs. (8x8)

Edited January 27, 2016 by leonlotus

[aristrokratie]

 

What does happen when they are put togetter? Magic? Their healings are not overpowered, but they are immortal in 2-3 against any configuration of enemy team, that do not have 2-3 healers too..

 

It's called addition.

[DomiSotto]

Well, hold on there, guys. We've been through:

 

Crafting Changes in 4.1.

Level 60 Armor Changes in 4.1.

Cartel Pack Changes in 4.1....

 

once they cover Changes to Lana's Haircut in 4.1, we might get an infomercial on the Balance Changes in 4.1.

 

On a serious note, information on the new warzone was scheduled for February, there is a good chance that Bio will piggyback rebalancing announcements/new season dates with that.

Edited January 27, 2016 by DomiSotto

[aristrokratie]

Back to the main topic, while I think sorchealing is too easy and forgiving, their actual healing values are fine. Removing some mobility and phasewalk would be enough. Mercs and ops to an extend need their numbers tuned and their toolkit adjusted (merc) to be competitive in pvp again.

 

Everything apart from that is a consequence of BioWare's fotg concept and as a result of that poor matchmaking.

Edited January 27, 2016 by aristrokratie

[Ruhun]

I think the numbers are ok too, it's just their survivability and resource management that needs to be taken care of.

A sorc that doesn't abuse phasewalk and that regen ability goes down super fast, unless guarded or being healed by one of the other 5 sorcs in the match.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Ruhun

[Flintfire]

These threads are starting to annoy me.

 

Yes, SORC healing is OP and should get nerfed. However, the average player using a sorc healer is average at most. Their healing is ok, but it only gets near unkillable when the player using it is amazing and used every skill available to them, something that is apparently above most people nowadays.

 

What is the real problem in pvp is incompetent dps that don't know what the difference is between their rotation and their ***hole and dont even target the healer.

 

Im tired of going into a game where one loudmouth complains about killing the healer and when its over they pulled 400k and I pulled 1.5 million and I would have killed an actually good healer if they didnt sit their typing the whole game.

 

Most dps in pvp nowadays are downright bad. If you can't kill a good healer solo, that is fine, a good healer can't be soloed, but if every healer you face you cant kill solo, thats on you, because let me tell you most sorc healers aren't that good. The only common variable in the fact that a healer can't die is you attacking them, and maybe if people would just admit they need to get better instead of crying for the nerf bat we would have more skilled players.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Flintfire

[RodneyMcNeely]

2 DPS can easily bring down a healer. Heck half of the DPS specs can solo a healer.

 

Skilled Tank + healer is another story.

Or cross-healing.

 

I'm really thinking it might be time for a cap on incoming healing, or a debuff of some sort if you're being healed by more than one source.

 

I don't have the answers, but I do know it's the stacking that's the problem.

 

And Sage/Sorcerer healers have too much mobility and passive survivability for the healing they're able to output. I think giving them Phase Walk was a HORRIBLE idea.

[Ramalina]

In terms of raw healing output, and I do say this as a long time sage, things aren't really OP at the moment.

 

In terms of resource stress and freecasting, sages are wildly OP in PvP, and mildly OP in PvE.

 

The normal way for dealing with healers isn't to out DPS their heals. Balance doesn't work well in that route, because the tradeoff for not being able to kill anything is a soft invincibility against raw DPS for healers. The normal ways to deal with healers are to either resource deplete them by forcing them to an inefficient burst healing rotation, or to interrupt their healing (via stuns, interrupts, or forcing movement) and thus reduce raw HPS enough to have a kill window.

 

The problem right now is that the sage regen mechanics are a tiny bit too generous, but mostly that the preferred base healing rotation can be almost entirely performed on the move (and that keeping a sage from moving is almost impossible). This is chiefly a matter of having gotten a bit too much in terms of movement utilities, the ability to channel while on the move, and a greatly reduced importance of casted heals in the force-efficient healing rotation. If you kept raw HPS the same but moved some of it out of Wandering Mend and into Deliverance, reduced force regen by maybe 2-5%, and moved a bit more burst healing power into Benevolence (while reducing it's efficiency a small amount), and you'd have sage healing at the same output, but much more manageable for skilled DPS to deal with interrupts and pressure tactics.

 

That's really the issue, resource pressure and output interruptions (abilities and forcing movement) aren't interfering with sage healing output enough, but balance wise, they're supposed to be the primary general toolset for creating kill opportunities in the presence of healers. Sages need to need their long cast heal in their force efficient rotation, and they need to be highly motivated to use Benevolence for single target burst heal ability that's a significant and unsustainable force sink.

[QuiveringPotato]

In terms of raw healing output, and I do say this as a long time sage, things aren't really OP at the moment.

 

In terms of resource stress and freecasting, sages are wildly OP in PvP, and mildly OP in PvE.

 

The normal way for dealing with healers isn't to out DPS their heals. Balance doesn't work well in that route, because the tradeoff for not being able to kill anything is a soft invincibility against raw DPS for healers. The normal ways to deal with healers are to either resource deplete them by forcing them to an inefficient burst healing rotation, or to interrupt their healing (via stuns, interrupts, or forcing movement) and thus reduce raw HPS enough to have a kill window.

 

The problem right now is that the sage regen mechanics are a tiny bit too generous, but mostly that the preferred base healing rotation can be almost entirely performed on the move (and that keeping a sage from moving is almost impossible). This is chiefly a matter of having gotten a bit too much in terms of movement utilities, the ability to channel while on the move, and a greatly reduced importance of casted heals in the force-efficient healing rotation. If you kept raw HPS the same but moved some of it out of Wandering Mend and into Deliverance, reduced force regen by maybe 2-5%, and moved a bit more burst healing power into Benevolence (while reducing it's efficiency a small amount), and you'd have sage healing at the same output, but much more manageable for skilled DPS to deal with interrupts and pressure tactics.

 

That's really the issue, resource pressure and output interruptions (abilities and forcing movement) aren't interfering with sage healing output enough, but balance wise, they're supposed to be the primary general toolset for creating kill opportunities in the presence of healers. Sages need to need their long cast heal in their force efficient rotation, and they need to be highly motivated to use Benevolence for single target burst heal ability that's a significant and unsustainable force sink.

 

Yeah, cause currently, it feels like no matter what you interrupt on a Sage/Sorc, they have something else that's just as effective to use right away.

 

I can't speak for commandos because I'm honestly not super familiar with their healing tree, but on an op, if you interrupt Kolto Injection when the op is trying to cast it to save someone, welp, that person is probably gonna be dead right after. On a sage, you interrupt something and then they use something else immediately after that will still save whoever's about to die.

 

I think they should move Force Mobility's ability to Roaming Mend (and give it a cast time), instead of on Innervate. If the other healers have to stop to get off their strong heals, sages should have to as well. Another thing I've noticed is that Sage/Sorc actually feels meaningful, like, you're able to save people from dying, but on an op, the "regular" heal rotation is basically just farming HPS and not doing very good healing that will be able to save anyone from death. I understand that op/scoundrel is supposed to be the AOE-sustained healer, but, when sages have pretty much the same numbers that are way easier to pull off (for instance, Static Barrier will absorb only about 2k less damage than 2x Kolto Probes will heal for over 18 seconds. Really?)This ability is also about 25% of op's total healing, IIRC), it's a bit dumb.

Edited January 28, 2016 by QuiveringPotato

[Cretinus]

DPS are bad. All of them. Even people who are extremely skilled on their sorc healer become bad, when they play one of their DPS alts. This tells us that healers are all fine and DPS all need to l2p. Edited January 28, 2016 by Cretinus

[pjaogg]

In terms of raw healing output, and I do say this as a long time sage, things aren't really OP at the moment.

 

In terms of resource stress and freecasting, sages are wildly OP in PvP, and mildly OP in PvE.

 

The normal way for dealing with healers isn't to out DPS their heals. Balance doesn't work well in that route, because the tradeoff for not being able to kill anything is a soft invincibility against raw DPS for healers. The normal ways to deal with healers are to either resource deplete them by forcing them to an inefficient burst healing rotation, or to interrupt their healing (via stuns, interrupts, or forcing movement) and thus reduce raw HPS enough to have a kill window.

 

The problem right now is that the sage regen mechanics are a tiny bit too generous, but mostly that the preferred base healing rotation can be almost entirely performed on the move (and that keeping a sage from moving is almost impossible). This is chiefly a matter of having gotten a bit too much in terms of movement utilities, the ability to channel while on the move, and a greatly reduced importance of casted heals in the force-efficient healing rotation. If you kept raw HPS the same but moved some of it out of Wandering Mend and into Deliverance, reduced force regen by maybe 2-5%, and moved a bit more burst healing power into Benevolence (while reducing it's efficiency a small amount), and you'd have sage healing at the same output, but much more manageable for skilled DPS to deal with interrupts and pressure tactics.

 

That's really the issue, resource pressure and output interruptions (abilities and forcing movement) aren't interfering with sage healing output enough, but balance wise, they're supposed to be the primary general toolset for creating kill opportunities in the presence of healers. Sages need to need their long cast heal in their force efficient rotation, and they need to be highly motivated to use Benevolence for single target burst heal ability that's a significant and unsustainable force sink.

 

Exactly! You're absolutely right on that! (thumbs up)

 

The only healing class i noticed, at the moment, that can be a challenge to take down with two DPS punching is the Sage/Sorc. They go down fast if not protected or guarded and/or off healed and without the possibility to Barrier and/or Phasewalk.

I'm saying this based on experience of last night WZs with one of the best Sorcs i know off in the server. In a match between two DPS and a healer (without other factors) it's my opinion that any healer will die. It would be ridiculous if two DPS players couldn't kill a healer. That would mean that the amount of healing the healer could be doing was at least two times the amount of damage he would receive, and with speed and energy (Force) to do it... And the healer needed to have DPS enough to take down the DPS fast... If this happens in the game i will surely stop being a sub. Better, i will stop playing it!

 

Two DPS not being able to kill a healer is a matter of skill.

Edited January 28, 2016 by pjaogg