Ruffian/Lethality

[Quarast]

A dot spec is a spec in which the damage over time effects directly cause a large portion of damage in the spec. This is not true in Lethality, as CA deals damage based on the presence of the effects, and the effects don't deal damage themselves as in Virulence. They are more similiar to the Heat Signature Heatseeker Missle and Affliction Force Leech buff(which boost the damage of Heatseekers and Force leech by 25%). Just because this buff effect is tied to a dot does not mean the spec is a dot spec, it only means that the buff is obtsined by the presence of the dots. Dots do not DIRECTLY contribute a large amount of damage to this delayed burst spec, and true dotspecs like madness should not be nerfed to this level.

[Star_of_Shili]

So are you claiming that Hatred assassins are a dot spec? Because if you are, your other claim (ie Lethality is not a dot spec) makes no sense. Hatred assassins are the melee variant of Hatred sorcs. Both assassins and sorcs had the same name for the skill tree for a reason prior to 3.0.

 

So you claim that Hatred assassins and Madness sorcs are both dot specs.

But Lethality operatives and Virulence snipers are not both dot specs-- according to you only Virulence snipers are.

 

Seriously? I'm starting to wonder why we're trying to argue about this with you anymore.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Star_of_Shili

[stridemachine]

I see what you're trying to prove here, but it just isn't true. It absolutely is a dot class that just plays a bit differently than the more traditional dot classes of madness/hatred. Simply because the dots themselves do weak damage, doesn't mean they can't define the spec.

 

In my opinion, the dots should do much more damage (2-2.5x more), or CA should do more of it's damage (90%) without the dots present. The second option would push the class into your view, I think.

 

This guy gets it. Sadly Quasrost cannot see beyond his own narrow vision of what he (and he alone) believes to define a dot spec.

 

To reiterate what cryowolf said, Disciplines are different, play differently and have different mechanics,, or else we'd just have one class. Within the definition of a dot spec there is ample room for variation and we believe Lethality falls within its guidelines. Furthermore, the devs have stated they will look into Lethality dps as it should be parsing higher-- therefore the increased damage has to come from somewhere, so why not the dots?

Edited June 14, 2015 by stridemachine

[Star_of_Shili]

I have to wonder if it would be such a bad thing if they buffed active abilities such as point blank blast or cull instead of the dots, actually. This could only mean better burst, as I tend to agree (in part) with the claims of many that dot damage is primarily "fluff" damage to pad your numbers.

 

But honestly with the way lethal/ruffian plays right now, it should have PBB and/or cull tweaked for higher damage yield as well as increasing the damage of corrosive grenade/vital shot. If overperforming specs like Hatred (and AP powertechs, but that's another barrel of fish) are brought down to more reasonable levels, then maybe only one of those buffs would be necessary to even the playing field.

 

and true dotspecs like madness should not be nerfed to this level.

 

Claiming that Hatred/Madness should not be nerfed down to Lethality's level just proves what a sad state Lethality is in: you don't want your spec to be at Lethality's level. Who would? Who does want to play Ruffian/Lethality in the state it is in? Only the loyal players who truly enjoy the spec itself for how it plays, despite its sub-par status, and these are the players that are in the forums stating the truth: Lethality/Ruffian needs a buff.

 

I haven't played the discipline doggedly enough to be considered one of these, but I hear what they're saying and have to agree with the claims they make based on their expertise. More than one person is saying the dot damage is too low. More than one person is agreeing that the ramp up time leaves lethality dead in the water and well behind in the dps race.

 

Do you even play lethality, Quarast? If not, I have to wonder what you are trying to accomplish in this thread other than ensuring your own preferred spec is the one that stays on top.

 

(Assuming Bioware is listening.)

[Quarast]

This guy gets it. Sadly Quasrost cannot see beyond his own narrow vision of what he (and he alone) believes to define a dot spec.

 

To reiterate what cryowolf said, Disciplines are different, play differently and have different mechanics,, or else we'd just have one class. Within the definition of a dot spec there is ample room for variation and we believe Lethality falls within its guidelines. Furthermore, the devs have stated they will look into Lethality dps as it should be parsing higher-- therefore the increased damage has to come from somewhere, so why not the dots?

 

You said that all dots should be brought down to ruffian levels. If you actually read my posts, you would know why that's a bad idea. Why? Because lethality is not a true dot spec, so it's dots are by nature weaker as it is not reliant on them for damage. If inquisitor dots, or IO dots, were at a lethality level, the already tenous state of sustained specs in emdgame pve would be worsened; also, pressure comps would be useless in ranked. Implying that i don't play the game doesn't make your assertion any more valid.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Quarast

[Star_of_Shili]

You're not even coming up with new ways to present your argument or new evidence or examples to back your claim...

[Quarast]

You're not even coming up with new ways to present your argument or new evidence or examples to back your claim...

 

I suggest you go back and read. There are multiple examples.

[Quarast]

I have to wonder if it would be such a bad thing if they buffed active abilities such as point blank blast or cull instead of the dots, actually. This could only mean better burst, as I tend to agree (in part) with the claims of many that dot damage is primarily "fluff" damage to pad your numbers.

 

But honestly with the way lethal/ruffian plays right now, it should have PBB and/or cull tweaked for higher damage yield as well as increasing the damage of corrosive grenade/vital shot. If overperforming specs like Hatred (and AP powertechs, but that's another barrel of fish) are brought down to more reasonable levels, then maybe only one of those buffs would be necessary to even the playing field.

 

 

 

Claiming that Hatred/Madness should not be nerfed down to Lethality's level just proves what a sad state Lethality is in: you don't want your spec to be at Lethality's level. Who would? Who does want to play Ruffian/Lethality in the state it is in? Only the loyal players who truly enjoy the spec itself for how it plays, despite its sub-par status, and these are the players that are in the forums stating the truth: Lethality/Ruffian needs a buff.

 

I haven't played the discipline doggedly enough to be considered one of these, but I hear what they're saying and have to agree with the claims they make based on their expertise. More than one person is saying the dot damage is too low. More than one person is agreeing that the ramp up time leaves lethality dead in the water and well behind in the dps race.

 

Do you even play lethality, Quarast? If not, I have to wonder what you are trying to accomplish in this thread other than ensuring your own preferred spec is the one that stays on top.

 

(Assuming Bioware is listening.)

 

It's a conspiracy...

I main lethality... my sorc is heals and i don't have 60 ain.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Quarast

[stridemachine]

You said that all dots should be brought down to ruffian levels. If you actually read my posts, you would know why that's a bad idea. Why? Because lethality is not a true dot spec, so it's dots are by nature weaker as it is not reliant on them for damage.

 

Wow you just won't give up,,,,I'm quite bored of backing up my claims when all you can do is repeat the same thing over and over. Since this is the internet I realize you won't ever give up. Because this argument of semantics benefits no one and bores everyone, lets move on.

 

Firstly, I'm against uncleansable dot's doing the majority of any spec's damage.. Why? Because hard hitting, easy to spread, long duration stackable DOT damage is over-performing in pvp. I'd love to see some of that dot damage allocated into other abilities. Madness certainly needs a buff in pve, but because of its uncleansable, hard hitting dots, any buff given without addressing dot damage would be too much. Lower the dot damage but buff telekinetic throw, make project worth using and maybe add some extra umph to Force Leech.

For Lethality, i'd love to see a 30% surge bonus attached to both Lethal Strike and Frag grenade. Additionally, all dots should do roughly the same amount of damage, ideally by reducing dot damage across the board.

Edited June 14, 2015 by stridemachine

[TACeMossie]

You don't use Point Blank Shot on CD. If you do that, you won't have enough time or energy to use Sanguinary Shot on CD without Upper Hand capping. The buff really isn't worth all that much. It's a minor boost for two total ticks per target, and that's basically it. PBS is a pretty great ability from a pure damage standpoint, but Sanguinary Shot is better.

 

Actually... I did come up with a rotation back on the PTS that utilized PBS on cooldown, and it didn't have time to use all the upper hands, but I dismissed it though because I used an operative for this, and you were pulling significantly more damage with your scoundrel (I later discovered this was due to a bug on sanguinary shot).

 

Anyway... The gist is you have to split up your DoTs to pull it off. The rotation cycle is:

 

Point Blank Shot -> Filler -> Blaster Whip -> Filler -> DoT -> Filler -> Blaster Whip -> Filler

 

Filler being eithe Sanguinary Shot when its off cooldown, or Corrosive Assault when its not.

You want ~150 crit rating and a 6-piece bonus to pull this off, otherwise resources start being a problem.

 

The issue is though that its split DoTs, so the opener is complicated and keeping it up in a raid is stupid. But it has 100% uptime on PBS, Blaster Whip, both DoTs, and sanguinary shot, and only wastes 3 Upper Hands/Minute (well, before accounting for UHs from stealth + PBS, or UHs from pugnacity)

 

NOW

 

If point blank shot applied both DoTs from stealth, then this issue would be solved, and the rotation would work, and it would be amazing. You'd still have to clip em, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as convoluted

 

SORT-OF OFF TOPIC

 

Am I the only one who thinks upper hand generation is a bit ridiculous? Neither spec has room for Quick Shot, so the only people using it are slingers with the utility that makes it free, and healers who want to do some damage.

 

I could totally get behind damage buffs to certain moves in exchange for a reduced upper hand generation rate.

Edited June 14, 2015 by TACeMossie

[Whojoo]

EDIT: I should probably clarify that the quotes are from seperate posts.

CA deals damage based on the presence of the effects

so it's dots are by nature weaker as it is not reliant on them for damage.

I main lethality...

Hahaha oh nice you crack me up. Wait let me go through this again.

 

CA deals damage based on the presence of the effects

This is true

so it's dots are by nature weaker as it is not reliant on them for damage.

This counters the first quote, which is why I believe:

I main lethality...

cannot be true without you joking around.

 

Now lets get serious. A true dot spec definition:

"DoT effects are responsible for the majority of the damage." I hope you can agree with that one.

Now lets remove the DoTs, to see the result. BAM ~44% of the damage is gone. So what did just happen?

20% of the damage is from the DoTs themselves. The remaining 24% are Corrosive Assault ticks which are suddenly missing.

 

So what can we conclude from this?

1. The DoTs are not directly inflicting the majority of the damage.

2. The DoTs are indirectly causing extra damage from Corrosive Assault.

3. This result in that the DoTs are responsible for extra damage from Corrosive Assault. Thus Corrosive Assault relies on the DoTs for damage.

4. The Dots themselves and the extra damage from Corrosive Assault (as result from the DoTs) cause the majority of the damage dealt.

 

Lets look at my definition again:

"DoT effects are responsible for the majority of the damage."

Point 1 would counter argue this, but points 2, 3 and 4 counter point 1. Basically saying that Lethality relies on its DoTs to deal the majority of the damage because they are responsible for the majority of the damage, be it directly or indirectly.

 

You might have noticed the bold part in point 3, well lets look at your statements again as I finish this post:

CA deals damage based on the presence of the effects

so it's dots are by nature weaker as it is not reliant on them for damage.

 

 

Quick addition. I would like to see some buff on Ruffian/Lethality. I read in some post, in some thread, that someone wanted a surge bonus on the dots (and maybe on the internal ticks of Corrosive Assault aswell). I think this is a bad idea. It encourages the use of crit, which increases the energy gain. This lowers the chance to burn out on your energy and use your Adrenaline Probe as an offensive cooldown (since its tougher to run out of energy).

But maybe increase the buff from Lethal Strike, increase the dot damage even more or extend its duration.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Whojoo

[Fellow-Canadian]

SORT-OF OFF TOPIC

 

Am I the only one who thinks upper hand generation is a bit ridiculous? Neither spec has room for Quick Shot, so the only people using it are slingers with the utility that makes it free, and healers who want to do some damage.

 

I could totally get behind damage buffs to certain moves in exchange for a reduced upper hand generation rate.

 

Only reason that ability has a spot on my bar is for PVP when a shadow uses shroud. Other than that I think folks could just remove it.

[TACeMossie]

"DoT effects are responsible for the majority of the damage." I hope you can agree with that one.

Now lets remove the DoTs, to see the result. BAM ~44% of the damage is gone. So what did just happen?

20% of the damage is from the DoTs themselves. The remaining 24% are Corrosive Assault ticks which are suddenly missing.

 

Its a little more than that. Assuming a best case scenario of every Point Blank Shots AND Brutal Shots being under Sanguinary Shot, you actually end up losing 54.6% of your damage by not putting your DoTs up. And that is a best case scenario. Now tell me its not a DoT spec

 

(And as to how this is best case scenario? I compared it to the top Ruffian parse, which, btw, doesn't have every PBS + Brutal Shots under sanguinary shots, so we'd be getting more hits of Sang Shots off on the Brutal Shots + Point Blank Shots)

Edited June 14, 2015 by TACeMossie

[Quarast]

Its a little more than that. Assuming a best case scenario of every Point Blank Shots AND Brutal Shots being under Sanguinary Shot, you actually end up losing 54.6% of your damage by not putting your DoTs up. And that is a best case scenario. Now tell me its not a DoT spec

 

Let's go overtthis one more time.

First of all, i have no idea what whojoo is trying to prove by yanking things out of context and trying to make an arguement. Bonus points for multiple quotes?

The main issue here is that of a spec with dots and a true dot spec. Let us take a look at lightning. Affliction, a dot, results in autocrit Thundering Blast, and you must have it up on the target. Lethality is a bit more focused on this sort of thing, but just as lightning is a spec with dots, lethality is also a spec with dots. Just because the damage buffs for these two specs are tied to a dot does not make them dot specs, however. They are both burst specs, albeit lethality has a too-long set up period.

The only reason this debate even came up is because someone wanted to nerf all dot damage to ruffian levels. This is bad for two reasons. It would be a relative buff to Lethality, which takes the focus away from CA (encourages tab dotting even more) and it also greatly weakens sustained dot specsaand pressure comps relatively in pve and pvp. This is why it is not a good idea.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Quarast

[Whojoo]

Let's go overtthis one more time.

First of all, i have no idea what whojoo is trying to prove by yanking things out of context and trying to make an arguement. Bonus points for multiple quotes?

The main issue here is that of a spec with dots and a true dot spec. Let us take a look at lightning. Affliction, a dot, results in autocrit Thundering Blast, and you must have it up on the target. Lethality is a bit more focused on this sort of thing, but just as lightning is a spec with dots, lethality is also a spec with dots. Just because the damage buffs for these two specs are tied to a dot does not make them dot specs, however. They are both burst specs, albeit lethality has a too-long set up period..

 

sigh...

First of all, the first 2 quotes were because you were countering your own statement, but lets ignore that for a second (oh and I had nothing else to do so had some fun might be that I overdid it)

 

Lightning relies on Affliction, true. However is it gimped by 44-54% (thanks Tac) if it does not use Affliction? Nope.

Marksmanship uses a DoT as well. It buffs all his other abilities by 5% (5% ranged debuff from Snipers). Does Marksmanship suddenly loose 44-54% of its damage if it did not use Corrosive Dart? Nope.

 

Every burst class that has a DoT relies on it in one way or another, that is where we agree I think. But non becomes useless without the DoT running.

 

Now look at sustained diciplines.

Hatred, as you agree on, relies on DoTs. It is utterly gimped without Discharge running (for insta Demo something) or any DoT at all for Assassinate procs.

Then we have things like Madness, VIrulence, Engineering,yada yada. All of them are gimped if you stop using their DoTs. All (or most) have a way to do some damage without, but they are waaaaaay less effective.

I think we still agree at this point.

 

Now look at Lethality. Stop using the DoTs and you can kiss goodbye to 44-54% of the damage done. Just like every dicipline mentioned above (both burst and sustained), Lethality relies on DoTs. But Burst classes can still do Okay without using that DoT. Lethality just turns useless.

Lethality its reliance on those 2 DoTs is far greater than any of the burst classes mentioned (or any burst class for that matter, though one could argue about Concealment's explosion thingy).

In fact, its reliance on those 2 DoTs is so big, that you cannot deny it being a true DoT spec.

 

Calling Lethality a Burst spec is also a bit questionable. Corrosive Assault hits for like 7k on average? It spraying Corrosive Assault constantly is what gives Lethality its sustained damage. I would not call that a burst really.

 

Now something we both agree one!

 

The only reason this debate even came up is because someone wanted to nerf all dot damage to ruffian levels. This is bad for two reasons. It would be a relative buff to Lethality, which takes the focus away from CA (encourages tab dotting even more) and it also greatly weakens sustained dot specsaand pressure comps relatively in pve and pvp. This is why it is not a good idea.

 

Ok I do not agree on the reasons, but lets stop argue'ing for a second (and maybe I just misunderstand your reasons).

I do not think that DoT damage from other diciplines should be lowered (even if you copensate it in other abilities).

DoTs give DoT-focused diciplines an edge over those who do not focus on DoTs in certain situations. (just like the opposite btw).

The playstyle is different as in you give a constant pressure instead of damage spikes. It also allows the DoT-focused dicipline to break LoS more (both pve and pvp) without suffering on uptime as much as a Burst focused dicipline would have.

 

Lowering DoT damage from Madness, for example, would lessen the gap between the 2 playstyles. First of all, non-DoT focused abilities will probably be stronger and become spiky'er. Second of all DoT focused diciplines have to have more uptime be competitive with Burst diciplines.

 

Currently, for me, it feels like choosing between DoT focus or burst means a big trade off. I either get a bit more mobility but loose flexibility (can't swap as easy), or the other way around.

Although exceptions can be found everywhere.

 

So yea, please do not lower the DoT damage on other DoT diciplines. I like how most diciplines play with all their differences. I don't care that it would be compensated to other abilities.

(Should I also mention that I primarily play DoT focused diciplines? )

[Star_of_Shili]

Exactly. Thank you, Whoojoo and Tac. If all that doesn't prove it, he's hopeless and as mentioned we should move on to more productive discussion than continually trying to prove to one guy whether Lethality is or isn't a dotspec. Edited June 14, 2015 by Star_of_Shili

[Quarast]

sigh...

First of all, the first 2 quotes were because you were countering your own statement, but lets ignore that for a second (oh and I had nothing else to do so had some fun might be that I overdid it)

 

Lightning relies on Affliction, true. However is it gimped by 44-54% (thanks Tac) if it does not use Affliction? Nope.

Marksmanship uses a DoT as well. It buffs all his other abilities by 5% (5% ranged debuff from Snipers). Does Marksmanship suddenly loose 44-54% of its damage if it did not use Corrosive Dart? Nope.

 

Every burst class that has a DoT relies on it in one way or another, that is where we agree I think. But non becomes useless without the DoT running.

 

Now look at sustained diciplines.

Hatred, as you agree on, relies on DoTs. It is utterly gimped without Discharge running (for insta Demo something) or any DoT at all for Assassinate procs.

Then we have things like Madness, VIrulence, Engineering,yada yada. All of them are gimped if you stop using their DoTs. All (or most) have a way to do some damage without, but they are waaaaaay less effective.

I think we still agree at this point.

 

Now look at Lethality. Stop using the DoTs and you can kiss goodbye to 44-54% of the damage done. Just like every dicipline mentioned above (both burst and sustained), Lethality relies on DoTs. But Burst classes can still do Okay without using that DoT. Lethality just turns useless.

Lethality its reliance on those 2 DoTs is far greater than any of the burst classes mentioned (or any burst class for that matter, though one could argue about Concealment's explosion thingy).

In fact, its reliance on those 2 DoTs is so big, that you cannot deny it being a true DoT spec.

 

Calling Lethality a Burst spec is also a bit questionable. Corrosive Assault hits for like 7k on average? It spraying Corrosive Assault constantly is what gives Lethality its sustained damage. I would not call that a burst really.

 

Now something we both agree one!

 

 

 

Ok I do not agree on the reasons, but lets stop argue'ing for a second (and maybe I just misunderstand your reasons).

I do not think that DoT damage from other diciplines should be lowered (even if you copensate it in other abilities).

DoTs give DoT-focused diciplines an edge over those who do not focus on DoTs in certain situations. (just like the opposite btw).

The playstyle is different as in you give a constant pressure instead of damage spikes. It also allows the DoT-focused dicipline to break LoS more (both pve and pvp) without suffering on uptime as much as a Burst focused dicipline would have.

 

Lowering DoT damage from Madness, for example, would lessen the gap between the 2 playstyles. First of all, non-DoT focused abilities will probably be stronger and become spiky'er. Second of all DoT focused diciplines have to have more uptime be competitive with Burst diciplines.

 

Currently, for me, it feels like choosing between DoT focus or burst means a big trade off. I either get a bit more mobility but loose flexibility (can't swap as easy), or the other way around.

Although exceptions can be found everywhere.

 

So yea, please do not lower the DoT damage on other DoT diciplines. I like how most diciplines play with all their differences. I don't care that it would be compensated to other abilities.

(Should I also mention that I primarily play DoT focused diciplines? )

 

I have a few things to say

1) I have said over and over that lethality is more reliant on the debuff than, say, AP or lightning in my previous posts

2) The reason I say lethality is not dot-reliant is a very subtle point. Unlike virulence, which has dots THEMSELVES tick as part of cull, CA in lethality provides its own tech damage, given dot debuffs are on the target. What makes lethality less of a dotspec than virulence is this:

 

Corrosive Grenade and Corrosive dart deal far less damage DIRECTLY even if they provide buffs to CA

 

3) Lethality is a unique kind of burst spec that makes it interesting- it is more of a delayed burst, which gives it decent sustained damage

4) We are agreed that other dot specs should not be nerfed like this. My reasons are as follows

 

A) if i choose to play, say, madness over lightning, it is because the sustained damage is what i want over lightning's burst

B) Pressure comps are eeant to overwhelm a healer in arenas for ranked. Nerfing dots would invalidate this tactic

C) Specs like madness that lag behind in parses actually need buffs to keep up with their bursty counterparts

 

5) As for the thread's resident troll, the "shili" guy, i give a rating of 4/10. The idea that I was bashing lethality as part of a conspiracy was sorta funny, buttthe rest was tired old material.

 

Let me know if you have nny other questions, I'm writing this on a tiny tablet screen with bad hotel wifi so probably missed something

[stridemachine]

2) The reason I say lethality is not dot-reliant is a very subtle point. Unlike virulence, which has dots THEMSELVES tick as part of cull, CA in lethality provides its own tech damage, given dot debuffs are on the target. What makes lethality less of a dotspec than virulence is this:

 

Corrosive Grenade and Corrosive dart deal far less damage DIRECTLY even if they provide buffs to CA

 

Where are you getting your information?

 

First of all, Virulence acts almost exactly like Lethality. If you look over the disciplines, you'll find the only differences stem from Sniper only abilities (like Takedown) or difference in dotspread mechanics. Cull does not have dots tick as part of cull...are you thinking of weakening blast? Lethality also has this ability, and it performs exactly like Virulence's weakening blast. Also, both disciplines "provide its own tech damage" in precisely the same manner -- they must have both dots on the target for additional tech damage to be applied. Finally, Corrosive Grenade and Corrosive Dart deal exactly the same amount of damage for both Lethality and Virulance.

 

I did not believe you could dig yourself a deep hole...Unless you wish to backpedal and claim Virulance is not a dot spec then I suggest you recant your assertion about Lethality.

Edited June 14, 2015 by stridemachine

[Star_of_Shili]

I am not calling for other dots to be nerfed to lethality's level. I am saying that (like many others have) something should be done to make it more viable and have some sort of damage buff, whether from buffed DoTs or slightly beefing up other abilities.

 

Maybe, Quarast, you could realize that with - what is it, four now?- other people having vocally disagreed with you, that your opinion of Lethality as "not a dot spec" is simply your opinion, one that so far does not appear to be shared by the majority.... and as such, that it just might be arrogant to claim it as fact. I won't argue further on this, though there is much more that could be said, because I don't want the debate to devolve into the unpleasantness that it seems to be headed for. And the longer this goes the more this argument really seems like just a question of semantics.

 

Hmm, I suppose the fact that I was even arguing against it in the first place could be tied to ego. What strange places hubris takes us to. Vehement internet quibbles over who's right and who's wrong about something that takes place in virtual game space and governed by rules that exist only there. Rules that are defined and that are created by an entirely different person(s) than either of us.

 

So really I guess the developers are the ones who decide what Lethality is and isn't, because they're the ones that made it and maintain it.

[Star_of_Shili]

On a different note, in searching for a definitive developer statement regarding the nature of the lethality/ruffian spec, I came across a far more interesting idea:

 

The dev on the livestream with the community manager for 3.0, I forgot his name- mentioned a possibility in passing that I found intriguing. He was answering a question related to the change about the buff operatives once received from maintaining an upper hand, instead of spending it; prior to 3.0 one had to always keep one up, to maintain a small % buff to both damage and healing.

 

That was removed, and for healers, they now get a short healing-increased buff after consuming an upper hand--- and he mentioned the possibility of later adding in a similar buff for damage dealing operatives.

 

This sounds really interesting to me, and could potentially add some additional complexity or depth to the way the class plays. If using an upper hand for cull/brutal shots gives you a short damage increase buff, depending on the reasonable length of said buff, it could (in my opinion) put lethality in a much better place.

 

You could combine this, with the right timing, with other damage buffs inherent in the spec, to exploit the maximum output , and in turn be vulnerable, as other specs are, to interference (stun/knockback etc) in that crucial window. Maybe you would brutal shots first, before sanguinary shot, to get the buff, then utilize sanguinary, and get a brutal shots in afterwards with some extra umph.

 

Not sure the effect this would have on pve. Thats a question for the theory crafters, and a question of just how much of a damage buff in number terms it would have to be; which could very well result in an answer that would make the change in pvp negligible, unfortunately.

 

But food for thought, regardless.

 

 

Oh, livestream link: http://www.twitch.tv/swtor/b/593067676

The pertinent section is at around 1:36. Maybe starts at 1:35, not entirely sure.

[Quarast]

Where are you getting your information?

 

First of all, Virulence acts almost exactly like Lethality. If you look over the disciplines, you'll find the only differences stem from Sniper only abilities (like Takedown) or difference in dotspread mechanics. Cull does not have dots tick as part of cull...are you thinking of weakening blast? Lethality also has this ability, and it performs exactly like Virulence's weakening blast. Also, both disciplines "provide its own tech damage" in precisely the same manner -- they must have both dots on the target for additional tech damage to be applied. Finally, Corrosive Grenade and Corrosive Dart deal exactly the same amount of damage for both Lethality and Virulance.

 

I did not believe you could dig yourself a deep hole...Unless you wish to backpedal and claim Virulance is not a dot spec then I suggest you recant your assertion about Lethality.

 

Sniper cull makes dots tick each time cull ticks- dots do direct damage. Corrosive assault is different because the damage buff does not come dirrctly from dots like in virulence, their debuff buffs CA itself.

Reading tooltips is hard

[stridemachine]

Sniper cull makes dots tick each time cull ticks- dots do direct damage. Corrosive assault is different because the damage buff does not come dirrctly from dots like in virulence, their debuff buffs CA itself.

Reading tooltips is hard

 

Just for clarification, you're basing your entire argument on this semantic?

[xAgonyyy]

Hatred's only non-dot dmg is basically assasinate procs and thrash. Lethality has half its damage from corrosive assault, and the other half split between shiv, lethal strike, weakening, dots....

 

Nerfing pressure specs would make them pointless in ranked, and overnerfing them to the levels of a BURST, not DOT spec is a bad idea.

 

.....??????

 

... you have no clue what you're talking about lmaooo

 

You do realize the "burst damage" from lethality is built up from dots right?

 

You do realize lethality has two dots that don't have a cooldown, and that your damage comes from spreading dots across enemy players right? rofl

 

If lethality operative isn't a dot spec then i guess that also means lethality sniper isn't a dot spec, LOL.

Edited June 15, 2015 by xAgonyyy

[Quarast]

.....??????

 

... you have no clue what you're talking about... your damage comes from spreading dots across enemy players right? rofl.

 

Highlighted for lol-value.

So many bad trolls on tonight

[Quarast]

Just for clarification, you're basing your entire argument on this semantic?

 

Just for clarification, you never knew how sniper cull worked until today?