Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[kalexkhan]

The UI and activation times along with the GCD are synced now. So you now will see the proper time left on abilities and won't have a delay. What was happening was when you though the timer was up you'd move or try another ability but the actual GCD or activation time wasnt finished.

 

UI with in-game GCD and activation times were off.

 

It's patched.

 

I believe the problem may be more complex than just this fix. It's probably going to a few different fixes, and a lot of specific test cases to really nail this down.

 

But I agree, this could be the first step in helping the "feeling" of things being wonky at the moment, however, claiming this is the golden fix before we can even verify is shooting too soon IMO.

[Ryzerion]

This is one of those things that you can deal with for a very short time while your still hyped about the game...but when common sense kicks in its a complete game breaker if not fixed or made a priority. I want this fixed very soon or whats the point?

 

Agreed times ten.

 

Also I doubt these patches will help but we'll fin out.

[ajjw]

I believe the problem may be more complex than just this fix. It's probably going to a few different fixes, and a lot of specific test cases to really nail this down.

 

But I agree, this could be the first step in helping the "feeling" of things being wonky at the moment, however, claiming this is the golden fix before we can even verify is shooting too soon IMO.

The patch will help with some of the clunkiness we feel in combat. However, it will not help with the issue being discussed here, which is that of asynchronous animations that also lock down your character from casting new abilities.

[Caketime]

YES YES YES!

 

I hated this in WAR and hated it even more in Rift. This stuff is game-BREAKING.

 

The dmg registration should not be based on ANIMATION.

 

Atm on my jugg when I use "Impale", which is instant, it actually takes 1-1.5 seconds before the dmg is registered. That is not instant, that is DELAYED.

 

Anchoring the dmg to the animation is such a bad move. Fix it, or PvP will never live.

[Heppuli]

Heppuli's point is actually very pertinent. I think the reason a lot of abilities are labelled "instant" maybe misleading to new players that are still used to the World of warcraft paradigm that "INSTANT CAST" means three things:

 

1. Ability is cast instantly.

2. Ability is COMPLETED instantly (completely different to cast instantly. An example would be a delayed Damage move such as the bounty hunter's explosive dart. The ability is only completed (and indeed, useful) after it has detonated several seconds later

3. Thirdly, and most importantly, that "Instant Cast" abilities have no missile speed. I've not played WoW in a good while, but I remember for a while abilities like Death Coil (both DK and warlock incarnations) would not affect their targets until the missile has hit their opponents. I think this was patched due to imbalance (other classes abilities had no missile time and therefore imbalanced for the game)

 

HOWEVER if all abilities have a missile time, ghost cast time etc, there is absolutely no imbalance as every class is affected instantly. to be perfectly honest, it's a stylistic choice to have animations for instant casts as long as gameplay isn't affected. For example, I refer to the OP's original post with the mage using ice lance after Frost Bolt, and I will include timers to illustrate.

 

In comparison I will show a bounty hunter using tracer missile then electro dart. I do not have a video yet (I will do after patch is up.) but here is essentially the timings of the attacks.

 

MAGE SITUATION

 

FROSBOLT (GCD finishes during cast)

ICE LANCE(Deals damage instantly, animation irrelevant (the boar dies before the missile has even hit, not cinematic at all, but VERY VERY SMOOTH, which is enjoyable, I freely admit.

 

Following the Lance, we have a GCD in which our character CANNOT DO ANYTHING (and looks like a plank bunny hopping till their next instant cast, whilst the rogue spasmodically "Smoothly" attacks the mage in the *** whilst it's attack animations reset 4 times within 2 seconds.

 

BOUNTY HUNTER SITUATION

 

TRACER MISSILE (GCD finishes during cast)

ELECTRO BOLT (uses an animation, does not apply instantly, but applies WITHIN THE GCD)

 

Following the ELECTRO BOLT, we do whatever we like. We are not behind the mage whatsoever in terms of actions, as the mage is still limited by his GCD after his Ice lance. the OP and several people can argue that this is unresponsive, but if (as Heppuli wisely points out) everyone is affected by the same constraints, there is no issue, as we still have the GCD in place for EVERYONE. Abilities off the GCD still instantly activate and show their animations instantly, but the rest of the instant casts still have their animations and missile times.

 

It may be difficult for WoWcomers to accept that in this game "instant cast" just means "uninterruptable and activates within or before a GCD cycle". However, during interrupt situations I find that the interrupt effect applies before the animation. As it should, considering if you had a 2 second animation on your interrupt vs a 1.5sec heal, your interrupt becomes useless. However I have consistently found this is not the case, and everyone is interrupting each others moves at precisely the right time. I am interrupting others when I need to, and people are interrupting me. Any other unresponsiveness is just ghost unresponsiveness and as far as I'm concerned is a stylistic use of the GCD. (in wow the only thing you can do in the GCD is autoattack. There is no Autoattack in this game, so they are filling the void with the animations.)

 

THIS. I concur with this poster in every way, and I believe many have noticed this but think it's a problem, when in fact it's just another way to fill space left with no autoattack. I can live with animations preventing skill use, and I'd hope that everyone could.

[Razzo]

I do understand what you are saying about the "problem" feeling slow and all. Wow is perfect in that sense and/or we got used to it

 

But... its not a real concern, at least for me, since its not random, not hardware related. Everyone suffers from it, and this is a different game. Gotta learn to adapt.

 

If anything can be done, good, if not, i'll adapt. As simple as that. Different games, different mechanics.

[Azure_Reaper]

/signed and rated

[Vasilas]

Good thread OP. This is exactlly what my brother and I were discussing the other day.

 

WoW had that special feeling that whenever you used an ability it felt like an instant cast, even with my country's crappy internet (80 ms) .

 

This is the one thing (besides the story) I love about Blizzard's games, and I'm not refering to WoW only. Take warcaft strategy games, starcraft, diablo, they all had instant response when you were using the interface.

 

This is a very important issue and it is vital for a healthy MMO.

[Xhovah]

Totally agree with the OP.

 

/signed

[Crawelc]

Love this, Rated it. It is especially bad with delayed animation for cast time spells like having to wait till you actually see the shock from lightning strike to cast another spell.

[DigitalDreamz]

I believe the problem may be more complex than just this fix. It's probably going to a few different fixes, and a lot of specific test cases to really nail this down.

 

But I agree, this could be the first step in helping the "feeling" of things being wonky at the moment, however, claiming this is the golden fix before we can even verify is shooting too soon IMO.

 

The very strange thing is a friend has NO ISSUES with the ability delay. Smooth as butter, yet I myself have experienced the ability delay. Yes I agree there may be more underneath the hood here but as you mentioned it's a step in the right direction.

[ajjw]

I do understand what you are saying about the "problem" feeling slow and all. Wow is perfect in that sense and/or we got used to it

 

But... its not a real concern, at least for me, since its not random, not hardware related. Everyone suffers from it, and this is a different game. Gotta learn to adapt.

 

If anything can be done, good, if not, i'll adapt. As simple as that. Different games, different mechanics.

I personally do not consider a disfunctional UI that tells me I can now use my next skill when infact I'm locked down by an animation of all things "mechanics". I call that flawed design that needs fixing ASAP.

[Fanglore]

Agreed With and Rated!

[asbalana]

Heppuli's point is actually very pertinent. I think the reason a lot of abilities are labelled "instant" maybe misleading to new players that are still used to the World of warcraft paradigm that "INSTANT CAST" means three things:

 

1. Ability is cast instantly.

2. Ability is COMPLETED instantly (completely different to cast instantly. An example would be a delayed Damage move such as the bounty hunter's explosive dart. The ability is only completed (and indeed, useful) after it has detonated several seconds later

3. Thirdly, and most importantly, that "Instant Cast" abilities have no missile speed. I've not played WoW in a good while, but I remember for a while abilities like Death Coil (both DK and warlock incarnations) would not affect their targets until the missile has hit their opponents. I think this was patched due to imbalance (other classes abilities had no missile time and therefore imbalanced for the game)

 

HOWEVER if all abilities have a missile time, ghost cast time etc, there is absolutely no imbalance as every class is affected instantly. to be perfectly honest, it's a stylistic choice to have animations for instant casts as long as gameplay isn't affected. For example, I refer to the OP's original post with the mage using ice lance after Frost Bolt, and I will include timers to illustrate.

 

In comparison I will show a bounty hunter using tracer missile then electro dart. I do not have a video yet (I will do after patch is up.) but here is essentially the timings of the attacks.

 

MAGE SITUATION

 

FROSBOLT (GCD finishes during cast)

ICE LANCE(Deals damage instantly, animation irrelevant (the boar dies before the missile has even hit, not cinematic at all, but VERY VERY SMOOTH, which is enjoyable, I freely admit.

 

Following the Lance, we have a GCD in which our character CANNOT DO ANYTHING (and looks like a plank bunny hopping till their next instant cast, whilst the rogue spasmodically "Smoothly" attacks the mage in the *** whilst it's attack animations reset 4 times within 2 seconds.

 

BOUNTY HUNTER SITUATION

 

TRACER MISSILE (GCD finishes during cast)

ELECTRO BOLT (uses an animation, does not apply instantly, but applies WITHIN THE GCD)

 

Following the ELECTRO BOLT, we do whatever we like. We are not behind the mage whatsoever in terms of actions, as the mage is still limited by his GCD after his Ice lance. the OP and several people can argue that this is unresponsive, but if (as Heppuli wisely points out) everyone is affected by the same constraints, there is no issue, as we still have the GCD in place for EVERYONE. Abilities off the GCD still instantly activate and show their animations instantly, but the rest of the instant casts still have their animations and missile times.

 

It may be difficult for WoWcomers to accept that in this game "instant cast" just means "uninterruptable and activates within or before a GCD cycle". However, during interrupt situations I find that the interrupt effect applies before the animation. As it should, considering if you had a 2 second animation on your interrupt vs a 1.5sec heal, your interrupt becomes useless. However I have consistently found this is not the case, and everyone is interrupting each others moves at precisely the right time. I am interrupting others when I need to, and people are interrupting me. Any other unresponsiveness is just ghost unresponsiveness and as far as I'm concerned is a stylistic use of the GCD. (in wow the only thing you can do in the GCD is autoattack. There is no Autoattack in this game, so they are filling the void with the animations.)

 

Excellent post. I will keep my response short and subjective. Before I cancelled my WOW account I had a level 85 frost mage as well as four other 85s. The combat of the frost mage felt very smooth and ice lance spam after a freeze or frost bolt was quick and natural. I never had a cast misfire. You could feel the timing of the casts and stack within gcds. I am not getting the same with my JC or SI. There is a jerkyness at times and I do have casts misfire.

 

I have seen a huge number complaints about swtor. Most of them are meaningless to me since the game is great and fun to play and is very deep and rich. Most of the issues are a question of taste or style and/or things that can be addressed somewhere down the line. I have no desire to compare swtor to WOW or to want it to be a WOW like game in space. But every game has a few core iproperties that are key to play. Smooth quality combat is one of them. Without that the life and sucess of the game will be decreased.

[Seteleechete]

I do understand what you are saying about the "problem" feeling slow and all. Wow is perfect in that sense and/or we got used to it

 

But... its not a real concern, at least for me, since its not random, not hardware related. Everyone suffers from it, and this is a different game. Gotta learn to adapt.

 

If anything can be done, good, if not, i'll adapt. As simple as that. Different games, different mechanics.

 

it wouldn't be a concern for me either if it wasn't random but for me it is whenever i press some of my abilties i cant know if it will go off or not THAT is what breaks the game for me if ik exactly how it would work id adjust

[tkshinoda]

Agreed with the OP, the responsiveness feels very sluggish compared to WoW (i hate using WoW as an example but their combat system is BY FAR the best combat system in MMO history) Edited December 27, 2011 by tkshinoda

[Supperhero]

I totally agree with this. Ability delay is vital to game immersion. I can't imagine every truly getting into PvP or PvE DPS with the game responding as slowly as it is ATM. I too think that this is the most immediate concern that Bioware needs to address. Do whatever it takes.

[fork_]

Agree!

 

Buzzing with joy over this game so far, but I really feel that if I'm to continue playing for a longer period of time, this issue needs to be addressed.

[mitavittuu]

/signed + rated

[dduttonnc]

to the OP.. I have 0 "delay", 0 lag.. I have not seen what you describe in your video on my machines at home that my partner and I play on

 

Specs:

 

Intel i7-2600K OCed to 4.9Ghz

Nvidia 580

16GB memory

Win 7 x64

 

the rest is normal misc stuff....

 

The biggest lag cause in this game is 1) lack of memory. the game uses up to 3GB on a 32bit os and 4 on a 64GB OS (It's Large Address Aware). 2) Poor video and poor cpu speeds.

 

I'll re read your post, but if your specs aren't there, then I dunno if it's your computer or not

[nobadee]

Yes default is 0.5 but it is important to understand that it is not the Queuing of Abilities that is the issue, it is the execution of an ability.

 

It has nothing to do with this sadly, for example... I cast "Aimed Shot"... about 0.5 seconds after I hit my button it starts to cast (at 40-50 FPS and 20ms Latency). Also, my "next ability" that I am spamming already before the Aimed Shot Cast Time is completed (as to not miss any time between) never goes off and no animation ever happens...

 

I mean, the whole system is just messed up, not smooth... not responsive.

 

I totally understand where you are coming from. I'm a pretty avid gamer myself and have played countless other MMOs in the past. I was in beta on this game and noticed this very issue; I assumed it was related to it being a beta build and nothing was optimized yet. When my fps still jump all over the place in this game post launch with all of my graphics settings optimized.

 

I voiced concerns about the delay many times in beta; but, it was ignored obviously. It wasn't evident to me at first; but, I noticed when I was casting chain lightening; which has a 3 second cast time, that it was actually 4.5 seconds. 1.5 seconds might not be that big of a deal to newer gamers; but, to someone who enjoys fluid movements in combat, this is very troublesome, especially if you intend to do raiding, where 1.5 seconds is a long time.

 

I know how frustrating this is; because, many people assume this is an issue with your setup; but, it's a software issue. The game was never fully optimized, the most obvious way you can tell is because it has no AA. Had they turned that on, the game would be unplayable.

 

It's really confusing for a gamer to jump from a game that is credited for it's top notch graphics, which runs smoothly on your system, to this game and it runs like it's an early beta build.

[mhend]

Didn't read any of it but really good post!

[shojj]

This'd make pvp so much more enjoyable for sure. Hell, it'd make everything so much more enjoyable. <3

[TheSkizzy]

Completely agree. This is one of my biggest pet-peeves in any MMO I have played besides WoW. It really is hard to explain what it is, and my friends don't understand when I try to explain it.

 

I know this is a Guild Wars 2 video I am about to link, but the guy explains it very well: YouTube clicky. He calls it Production Quality.

[YzenDanek]

The UI and activation times along with the GCD are synced now. So you now will see the proper time left on abilities and won't have a delay. What was happening was when you though the timer was up you'd move or try another ability but the actual GCD or activation time wasnt finished.

 

UI with in-game GCD and activation times were off.

 

It's patched.

 

Yeah, that has nothing to do with what's being discussed here.

 

When you use an ability with a cast time, and start moving again JUST AFTER the casting bar completes, and it interrupts the ability, that has nothing to do with the global cooldown.

 

It has to do with animations, rather than casting times, being what the game is waiting to complete before applying the effects of an ability.