Three suggestions for making changes to the Assassin

[undiess]

No, deception don't need a DOT dmg. Stop destroying this spec for PvP with ur "great" ideas. This spec all about CC-s.

 

Well from your suggestions above you want to water down the defensive cooldowns and give the predictable burst a buff. Sounds like a combat sentinel. Have you played one of those recently?

[helpmewin]

Well from your suggestions above you want to water down the defensive cooldowns and give the predictable burst a buff. Sounds like a combat sentinel. Have you played one of those recently?

 

Sounds like deception more close to pre 3.0. But tho BW will never return dat burst. Deception is far more RNG-ed than combat/carnage. This is 2 diff classes with absolutelly diff rotation and playstile, if u lvl-ed all classes when 12x(2x) was It does not make you an expert in all classes, espesially when other peoples play dat class since release.

Edited May 18, 2015 by helpmewin

[invertioN]

No, deception don't need a DOT dmg. Stop destroying this spec for PvP with ur "great" ideas. This spec all about CC-s.

 

I don't WANT dot dmg, it's just that expecting straight damage buff to 1 or more abilities is a bit unrealistic, we need some way which won't make the burst too much for pvp.

[helpmewin]

I don't WANT dot dmg, it's just that expecting straight damage buff to 1 or more abilities is a bit unrealistic, we need some way which won't make the burst too much for pvp.

 

Sustained can be buffed from stance or CS/VS.

[Iona_Var]

The 12s cc immunity needs to go. I would rather see an increase in DR. Maybe like 15% more. Deception needs a slight increase to it's burst. Both deception and hatred need a boost to their sustained dps despite what some pvpers may think. The biggest issue for hatred in pvp was and still is the amount of defensives we have. Take away the 12s cc immunity and make the dots cleansable again.

[Aelanis]

No, deception don't need a DOT dmg. Stop destroying this spec for PvP with ur "great" ideas. This spec all about CC-s.

Yes, because adding a low damage over time effect to an ability just destroys the entirety of the Discipline /sarcasm. Stop acting like PvP is the only mode this game has, because we're trying to brainstorm ideas that have a minimal impact on PvP but a noticeable one on PvE. You know what would be a great way to make Deception an amazing PvE spec? Break Maul into 10 hits, decrease its surge boost to 15%, from 30%, and jump the Duplicity bonus from 20% up to 35%: bam, super stable staple DPS move that does more damage than it does now, at the cost of almost all of its burst. Then do the same to Discharge and Ball Lightning! All of a sudden we're basically immune to poor RNG and deal really nice damage, with those three moves being reliably high damage interspersed with decent filler damage. But none of us want that, because that's the type of thing that would actually kill the Discipline in PvP.

 

If you wanted to give a stance based damage proc, it would have literally the same effect. It would apply some amount of damage on a periodic interval, just like a dot, except that it couldn't be cleansed. You literally suggested what he did, just in a slightly different manner of application.

The 12s cc immunity needs to go. I would rather see an increase in DR. Maybe like 15% more. Deception needs a slight increase to it's burst. Both deception and hatred need a boost to their sustained dps despite what some pvpers may think. The biggest issue for hatred in pvp was and still is the amount of defensives we have. Take away the 12s cc immunity and make the dots cleansable again.

 

Allowing cleanses to work on dots again isn't going to have the effect everyone thinks it will. Cleanses have a 12 second cooldown, now (roughly), and only Sorc/Sage cleanses every could remove Force dots, so you'll end up being able to cleanse 2 people before the Assassin spreads their dots again. The second cleanse will hardly be worth it, either, since at least 2/3 of the dot is done ticking through by that point.

 

As for DR, Deception pushes up to like 28% DR in Light Armor in PvP without Insulation, how much more do you really think it needs? Unless you were talking about Hatred, which I would say could use a little flat DR.

[helpmewin]

Yes, please deception was all about CC and burst. PvE whines makes him all about CC and deception is dead for group ranked. Please kill this spec for PvP - u need just last shot - destroy spec mechanic to the end. "Great suggestions" like this already killed pyro/old AP for PvP. Ty. Edited May 18, 2015 by helpmewin

[Aelanis]

Well that's cool, but we need the devs doing those things

 

Yeah, but it's a neat thinking exercise and lets you come up with really solid plans, and be able to show that they'll work.

 

I came up with some preliminary numbers, like I said I would (woot!). As it stands, Maul would apply a 6 second dot on the target (allows for some wiggle room in delaying Maul), ticking on application and every 2 seconds thereafter. The dot would deal, using results from my optimization code, roughly 554 damage on a normal hit and 937 damage on a critical hit. It would end up being a roughly whopping 5% sustained damage increase, but due to how many moves get used before Maul in the typical PvP opener, should have a very small effect on the probability of kill of a given target. Total extra DPS, on average, rounds out to about 250, though it can be higher with better crits and lower with worse.

 

As for damage type, I would prefer to see it be Energy damage. After popping cooldowns, most classes have better DR than an Ops boss, which would cause the ability to deal slightly less damage, as opposed to being Internal, against which there is little defense. Also, this allows us to be more self sufficient, since we apply the Force damage and Armor Sunder debuffs ourselves, the only 2 that would apply to an energy damage dot, as opposed to needing the Internal/Elemental damage debuff from another class to hit the proposed damage levels.

 

Thoughts, anyone?

[Aelanis]

Yes, please deception was all about CC and burst. PvE whines makes him all about CC and deception is dead for group ranked. Please kill this spec for PvP - u need just last shot - destroy spec mechanic to the end. "Great suggestions" like this already killed pyro/old AP for PvP. Ty.

 

Get off your high horse. Deception is still, in your own words about CC and burst. And stop blaming people who play PvE who want their class to be viable for changes that probably had little say in. It goes goth ways, too. We need to get out of this "I play PvE/PvP so I hate PvP/PvE whiners because they ruined my class/spec/game!" mindset.

 

As for "destroying" it? It plays almost identically to 2.0. Good try, though. As for "suggestions like this," enlighten me: how did adding a dot to Pyro/old AP kill it in PvP?

[helpmewin]

Get off your high horse. Deception is still, in your own words about CC and burst. And stop blaming people who play PvE who want their class to be viable for changes that probably had little say in. It goes goth ways, too. We need to get out of this "I play PvE/PvP so I hate PvP/PvE whiners because they ruined my class/spec/game!" mindset.

 

As for "destroying" it? It plays almost identically to 2.0. Good try, though. As for "suggestions like this," enlighten me: how did adding a dot to Pyro/old AP kill it in PvP?

 

Classes-PT/VG-cr8 thread - "Why pyro is broken for PvP?". Deception have not enough burst - my suggestion was to trade immunes to slighty burst and mitigation buff, very simple. Makes sins open counter-able and more viable for group and PvP.

Edited May 18, 2015 by helpmewin

[undiess]

Sounds like deception more close to pre 3.0. But tho BW will never return dat burst. Deception is far more RNG-ed than combat/carnage. This is 2 diff classes with absolutelly diff rotation and playstile, if u lvl-ed all classes when 12x(2x) was It does not make you an expert in all classes, espesially when other peoples play dat class since release.

 

Total time played between my assassin and shadow: 78 days 11 hrs 4 mins

Total time played between my sentinel and marauder: 41 days, 23 hrs, 58 minutes

 

If you're an expert at anything... it's salt, typos, and assumptions.

[helpmewin]

Total time played between my assassin and shadow: 78 days 11 hrs 4 mins

Total time played between my sentinel and marauder: 41 days, 23 hrs, 58 minutes

 

If you're an expert at anything... it's salt, typos, and assumptions.

 

Good boy, keep going.

[invertioN]

Thoughts, anyone?

 

I will be dreaming about it tonight

[Aelanis]

Classes-PT/VG-cr8 thread - "Why pyro is broken for PvP?". Deception have not enough burst - my suggestion was to trade immunes to slighty burst and mitigation buff, very simple. Makes sins open counter-able and more viable for group and PvP.

 

You're sidestepping the question because you know you're wrong. What is now Pyro inherited the old strengths and weaknesses of what used to be AP: mainly that it relied on a 3 second channel for a huge portion of its damage, but that was an AoE channel and people caught inside of it got hurt really badly. The addition of a 30 second duration dot did nothing to change that, other than to force you to pick between less damage up front and more damage in a long fight, while doing almost nothing to change what deals most of your damage.

[helpmewin]

You're sidestepping the question because you know you're wrong. What is now Pyro inherited the old strengths and weaknesses of what used to be AP: mainly that it relied on a 3 second channel for a huge portion of its damage, but that was an AoE channel and people caught inside of it got hurt really badly. The addition of a 30 second duration dot did nothing to change that, other than to force you to pick between less damage up front and more damage in a long fight, while doing almost nothing to change what deals most of your damage.

 

They nerf AOE burst and give more single-target sustained DMG and reduce single-target burst. Now AOE spec have less cleave DMG than tank spec with full tank gear. Dat is, just useless. And + pyro have less surv than AP - funny, but AP is a glass cannon. Its was good AOE spec with intital burst(when 7 rockets was up ofc), now just.... idk just ****. Was one of my favourite specs in this game.

Edited May 18, 2015 by helpmewin

[Iona_Var]

Allowing cleanses to work on dots again isn't going to have the effect everyone thinks it will. Cleanses have a 12 second cooldown, now (roughly), and only Sorc/Sage cleanses every could remove Force dots, so you'll end up being able to cleanse 2 people before the Assassin spreads their dots again. The second cleanse will hardly be worth it, either, since at least 2/3 of the dot is done ticking through by that point.

 

As for DR, Deception pushes up to like 28% DR in Light Armor in PvP without Insulation, how much more do you really think it needs? Unless you were talking about Hatred, which I would say could use a little flat DR.

 

I was thinking more about hatred than deception when I suggested an increase of DR because deception really doesn't need more. Just trying to think of what they could change that utility to.

[Aelanis]

They nerf AOE burst and give more single-target sustained DMG and reduce single-target burst. Now AOE spec have less cleave DMG than tank spec with full tank gear. Dat is, just useless. And + pyro have less surv than AP - funny, but AP is a glass cannon. Its was good AOE spec with intital burst(when 7 rockets was up ofc), now just.... idk just ****. Was one of my favourite specs in this game.

 

And when did they nerf the AoE damage? Since 3.0, all they've done is buffed Flamethrower's damage. And if you're going to try to tell me that they nerfed the damage in 3.0, I'm going to laugh, because they changed the damage on almost every single ability in the game. And as far as having the rockets goes, you didn't even start using them until after your first flamethrower, after the biggest part of your burst was already over, it just drew out the less than spectacular damage of the rest of the rotation.

 

And tank spec/tank gear doing more damage with Firestorm than a fully charged Flamethrower? Please. Get real.

I was thinking more about hatred than deception when I suggested an increase of DR because deception really doesn't need more. Just trying to think of what they could change that utility to.

 

Well, it's a utility, so DR would be something rough to turn it into, because tanks could get it then. Something unique, yet still strong, would be your best bet. As for what to turn that into? I haven't given it nearly enough thought.

[helpmewin]

My FT in pyro was 4.2-4.5K(crit ofc) per tick pre 3.0 when health pool was 30K . Last time i'm played its was 3.7-3.9K in full 174. Hm.....Interesting only buffed u said, yes? First of all they nerf FT base DMG in 3.0, second there was +20% FT DMG per stack with 3 stacks it was +60%. And cleave means all AOE dmg. And btw FT is much easier to counter than firestorm. No1 start in PvP with FT if there is less than 3 guys, just saying.

Peoples in group just use power - surge mods + ench with max endurance and shiled and do litlle lower DPS than hatred/madness in arena. If hatred do 2.5K - PT tank spec 1.6-1.8K, some PT do around 2K+.

Anyway this debates about nothing PvE=/=PvP. In PvP there is a lot of "but".

Edited May 19, 2015 by helpmewin

[qwopicus]

This troll is getting fat after being fed so much... You're bigger than this Aelanis.

[Aelanis]

My FT in pyro was 4.2-4.5K(crit ofc) per tick pre 3.0 when health pool was 30K . Last time i'm played its was 3.7-3.9K in full 174. Hm.....Interesting only buffed u said, yes? First of all they nerf FT base DMG in 3.0, second there was +20% FT DMG per stack with 3 stacks it was +60%. And cleave means all AOE dmg. And btw FT is much easier to counter than firestorm. No1 start in PvP with FT if there is less than 3 guys, just saying.

Peoples in group just use power - surge mods + ench with max endurance and shiled and do litlle lower DPS than hatred/madness in arena. If hatred do 2.5K - PT tank spec 1.6-1.8K, some PT do around 2K+.

Anyway this debates about nothing PvE=/=PvP. In PvP there is a lot of "but".

 

Since 3.0, all they've done is buffed Flamethrower's damage. And if you're going to try to tell me that they nerfed the damage in 3.0, I'm going to laugh, because they changed the damage on almost every single ability in the game.

Well, I rest my case. You can't compare relative balance between expansions. I'll remember that bit about Flamethrower, though, the next time I'm defending against 2 people, since, you know, I shouldn't use it until a third person shows up.

...Now AOE spec have less cleave DMG than tank spec with full tank gear.

And last I checked, power/surge enhancements weren't tank gear. Try again, maybe?

This troll is getting fat after being fed so much... You're bigger than this Aelanis.

 

Probably, but I'm bored today, and he's not keeping his statements consistent.

[helpmewin]

No, tho the main problem dat ur talking about PvE and me about PvP. PT tank with tank gear is much more usefull as DPS than pyro in arena with better cleave DMG - funny but it is and with power - surge PT just easilly overDMG almots all DPS classes except hatred tho.First of all pyro lost AOE burst(still easy to counter why? idk.. if its not burst now) and lost single target initital burst - just have zero burst - even madness sorc have 8-9K+ force lech and for pyro its a dream now, pyro pressure is not working at PvP coz AOE still easy to counter, but now it is not so huge when 2 ticks was "OMG it was hard!" and pre 3.0 if u channel all AOE on few target it was -50-65% hp for them - if smdy support u with CC(Other PT) it was really really HUGE dmg. Second problem is dat BW gives(or will give) a lot of mobility to other classses, third there is much more range classes and pyro is really hard to stack them. AOE easy to counter(it is not burts now), low pyro survivability(even more squishy than AP). All what is do pyro now, if i saw( its really rare) in regs - split dots on all and trying to use FT - but its laughable - just useless ****. Oh in yolo its just punch bag without any usefull actions. For grp ofc dead too.

New expansion not new game and every PvP-r will compare DMG based on health pool before expansion coz it is NOT PVE(and its always was like that). Anyway the main problem dat devs don't play their own game and listen "specialists" on forum - thats why this game will never be competetive. Now PvP server almost dead and summer makes them ghost towns.

I tho there is no reason to discuss more cuz we are talking on different languages - u just not understand what i'm talking about, coz ur minds from PvE prism and first of all if smdy talking about PvP u will wear ur PvE glasses.

Edited May 19, 2015 by helpmewin

[undiess]

He really did manage to turn this into a qq about another class after offering horrible suggestions to nerf survivability so we could get improved burst that would never be imagined... because we would be cc'ed and bursted down ourselves, ala marauder.

 

I'd be shocked if this guy even had an assassin, let alone an opinion that he could type literately. He really is speaking his own language, one with one letter vowels.

 

But, I can see how Aelanis is bored, there is not much action going on in this forum right now.

Edited May 19, 2015 by undiess

[helpmewin]

He really did manage to turn this into a qq about another class after offering horrible suggestions to nerf survivability so we could get improved burst that would never be imagined... because we would be cc'ed and bursted down ourselves, ala marauder.

 

I'd be shocked if this guy even had an assassin, let alone an opinion that he could type literately. He really is speaking his own language, one with one letter vowels.

 

But, I can see how Aelanis is bored, there is not much action going on in this forum right now.

 

Interesting how peoples played deception pre 3.0 and they was happy? With less survivability and less mobility, without CC 12 sec immune and more burst. Do ever play pre 3.0?

Aka mara lol, mara need to preapre his burst/get proc(carnage), have small burst window aka Gore and can be countered by 1 CC, and deception is opener, inv class with multiple escapes and force shroud(it about CC immune).

Im really tired to discuss.

Its really sad dat Shinarika is gone - she knows what is PvP, so there is no reason try to explain something, other just don't understand or don't care(coz PvE-rs) and no1 support.

Edited May 19, 2015 by helpmewin

[TACeMossie]

Yeah, but it's a neat thinking exercise and lets you come up with really solid plans, and be able to show that they'll work.

 

I came up with some preliminary numbers, like I said I would (woot!). As it stands, Maul would apply a 6 second dot on the target (allows for some wiggle room in delaying Maul), ticking on application and every 2 seconds thereafter. The dot would deal, using results from my optimization code, roughly 554 damage on a normal hit and 937 damage on a critical hit. It would end up being a roughly whopping 5% sustained damage increase, but due to how many moves get used before Maul in the typical PvP opener, should have a very small effect on the probability of kill of a given target. Total extra DPS, on average, rounds out to about 250, though it can be higher with better crits and lower with worse.

 

As for damage type, I would prefer to see it be Energy damage. After popping cooldowns, most classes have better DR than an Ops boss, which would cause the ability to deal slightly less damage, as opposed to being Internal, against which there is little defense. Also, this allows us to be more self sufficient, since we apply the Force damage and Armor Sunder debuffs ourselves, the only 2 that would apply to an energy damage dot, as opposed to needing the Internal/Elemental damage debuff from another class to hit the proposed damage levels.

 

Thoughts, anyone?

 

While I may be late to the party, I'd prefer the DoT to be internal damage. Why? Because players start with 10% more internal Damage Reduction than a boss thanks to force valor/mark of power, and disciplines only make it better.

 

For example, if the DoT was 500 damage/hit on a sundered/assailable boss, using it on a player with 25% K/E DR + 10% I/E DR would result in 556 damage if its energy, but 450 damage if internal (and that's assuming no debuffs cause I couldn't be bothered calculating armor after sundered).

 

Hell, worst case scenario of VG tank is 19% Internal DR/54% Energy DR (ill cover the crits + shields issue later), you've got 341 Energy Damage/tick vs 405 Internal damage/tick.

 

As for helpmewin's Pyro-based derailment:

 

Remind me how Flamethrower used to spread the gut bleed pre-3.0. Or how Immolate got an auto-crit. Or how Ion Pulse would apply Plasma Cell.

 

Oh wait. That never happened, did it...

Edited May 19, 2015 by TACeMossie

[helpmewin]

IR spread ahah-hahah! Dat really helps a lot to pyro in PvP. Auto-crit get all specs btw and Immolate dmg....sry but its laughtable after 2 nerfs - AP have more DMG on his spam magnetic blast(and this is not burst). Anyway u do a good job to try do something usefull for this spec if srsly, but like i said now this spec is just broken for PvP, not works. Now its heavy sustained DOT-based DPS spec with very easy counter-able DPS(not burts) AOE, this spec needs FT cast while moving or tick twice faster as firestrom mb it will make him more viable for PvP, coz i don't see any reason to have FT so counterable coz this is not burst now. Anyway i should stop, this game all about carrtel packs. I hope something will change and BW will do for both PvP and PvE. Edited May 19, 2015 by helpmewin