When will we get answers?

[Kitsanth]

I wanted to ask the devs about a lot of things, and their silence has been kind of an issue on the forums, in both the PTS and class forums, so I figured I'd go ahead and address some of the issues I've seen lately.

 

______________________________________________________

 

The purpose of our forums, of our subreddit, and other official channels is to have a dialog. We know that sometimes we may disagree, and that’s ok. We want to have those hard conversations, we want to talk about what we can do to improve, and to pass on our thoughts on how we see things from the Development side.

I was wondering what you guys mean by this, because I did a search of all posts made by John, and he has not replied even once to any player, even outside the class forums. If you look at any of the 3.2.1 feedback posts, he only has a total of 2 posts in each thread, max. It's like they put stuff out there to try and shut up the community and then continue with their jobs, rather than actually try to have any sort of dialogue. They are just saying "this is what we are looking at doing" without saying anything else or giving any justification on why they chose that decision rather than another one. It's almost like they are trying to hide their design philosophies, even though we need transparency to even understand what the heck the design team is talking about.

 

The lack of any sort of response, as well as the original posts, seems very unprofessional, which is why the community is so upset. I mean, there has been a massive public outcry on the Sentinel/Marauder forums about us not understanding certain things, especially the "vision" that the combat team has for the class and why they feel the need to "improve" (nerf) certain aspects of the class to adhere to that vision, or why they aren't making any sort of changes to things that are considered by the community to be in a huge need of it.

 

Even in the very few posts that have come from the combat team in the 3.2.1 threads, especially in the Sentinel/Marauder posts, you guys say things are based on community feedback, but you never say where from or how they even correlate to anything said in the thread. For the most part, the changes don't seem to be at all what the community feedback had indicated as needed. Because of this I've noticed a lot of posts lately saying many of the same things, such as:

I think I speak for the majority of players here when I ask why you ignored large parts of our feedback. Feedback that has been provided since 3.0 got first released.

Why are you ignoring community feedback that's clearly something a vocal part of your community wants implemented?

yes but you changed things that we didn't ask for.

33 pages of feedback and thats it? Thats you listening to the community?

 

You guys say you want a dialogue, but all we get is a combat team monologue, which on the outside shows that they either don't care about the feedback, don't care about improving the game, or don't care about the community on the forums. If you're not going to respond to posts, like you say in official statements, then don't make official statements like that! If the first quote above is true, then why hasn't any of it happened? When will we actually receive answers?

 

______________________________________________________

 

In this post John even went as far as to pretty much tell the Sentenel/Marauder community that they don't know how to play the game or know how the game works, after the combat team's overall changes cause an overall dps drop according to both the community and the combat team.

Following these Annihilation/Watchman rotation changes, we realize that there is a slight loss in DPS potential and want to take this opportunity to give you all the chance to voice where you would like to see this DPS returned.

They acknowledged a DPS loss, but according to nearly 100% of the feedback, it was never returned, as apparently intended. It's like the combat team has no accountability for screwing things up, so they're going to pass it on to the players who are the victims. Again, responses and transparency are needed for us to understand.

 

We know there is unhappiness in the Sent/Mara community and we genuinely want to continue having an open discussion with all of you. But, it’ll require regular dialog, respecting each other’s opinions, and very importantly, not harassing anyone who is participating in the conversation. That means, we all need to hold ourselves to a higher standard and be accountable for our actions.

 

According to official posts, there should be accountability, but from what we've seen, there is only any for players. Even that previous URL (this post) is borderline harassing an entire community with an "L2P" statement, so why is there no accountability or even an apology? Even editing the post to not sound absolutely condescending and jerkish would be nice. Maybe you guys need to get a better PR team.

 

______________________________________________________

 

The last point I'm going to bring up is how little all of the posts from the combat team make sense. You guys make contradicting posts, such as:

Concerning changes to Annihilation/Watchman, we have reduced the durations of Rupture/Cauterize and Force Rend/Force Melt to create a more burst-friendly rotation with shorter DoT durations.

And

We would like to take this opportunity to discuss Marauders/Sentinels and their present state in the game. To do so, we wish to start by outlining the rotational design philosophies of the three Marauder/Sentinel rotations.

Annihilation/Watchman: High Rotation Difficulty, High Sustained and Low Burst Damage

Here's another one:

Never Overestimate Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw: Some abilities are only designed to be used situationally. For example, as an Annihilation Marauder/Watchman Sentinel, you are only intended to use Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw in multi-target situations, while its damage is boosted by Pulverize/Mind Sear, and/or when stuck at a long distance from your enemy target.

and

At present, we are considering adding Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw to the Weaponmaster’s/Challenger’s Critical Bonus trigger.

When you say things like this, it makes no sense, and then you give us no follow up information, so we don't understand anything... yet again. You guys will go against your design philosophies, but will use those same philosophies as an excuse why needed changes aren't happening. Maybe there's a good reason? You keep saying you want feedback, but you never give us yours.

 

______________________________________________________

 

In the end, all we need is a bit of transparency and feedback. There should be actual dialogue between the combat team and the community, rather than seemingly ignoring the community for long periods of time and coming out with changes that have nothing to do with the community feedback. If you guys give us that dialogue and transparency, then you will probably have the support of the community, but as it stands, the community thinks you are fighting with them, which means they are going to fight back.

 

______________________________________________________

References

 

Threads:

These are in no particular order

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=810922

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=811195

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8122355

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=810968

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8140825

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=807167

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=810897

 

John's post list:

http://www.swtor.com/community/search.php?searchid=5508660

[KaellSolaris]

I have to recognize, you made an extraordinary work.

 

But unfortunately, I believe that the people concerned won't answer, or will delete this post. (I hope you keep a copy).

 

You explained everything well, but I'm afraid they will censored your post, I have done a post like yours in the thread "Harassment of Developers"(http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=811195), but every time it get remove.

 

I receive a private message from the community team :

 

 

Dear KaellSolaris,

 

You have received a warning at STAR WARS: The Old Republic.

 

Reason:

-------

Rules Notification

 

Your post was recently removed for violating the Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ community Rules of Conduct. Please note that this is just a friendly reminder of the Rules of Conduct - no infraction points have been added to your account!

 

Do not publicly discuss administrative action taken by the Moderation or Community Management Staff.

 

We appreciate your understanding, and ask that you take a moment to review our Rules of Conduct.

 

 

So Basically, they are right and we are wrong, even if you prove the opposite

[TACeMossie]

Here's my findings from the posts they made

 

In this post John even went as far as to pretty much tell the Sentenel/Marauder community that they don't know how to play the game or know how the game works, after the combat team's overall changes cause an overall dps drop according to both the community and the combat team.

 

When they said that, the community believed there was a 9% DPS loss from the 3.2.1 changes. Using dev feedback from said thread, I discovered it was actually a mere 2.5% DPS loss. In other words, the L2P was justified.

 

They acknowledged a DPS loss, but according to nearly 100% of the feedback, it was never returned, as apparently intended. It's like the combat team has no accountability for screwing things up, so they're going to pass it on to the players who are the victims. Again, responses and transparency are needed for us to understand.

Yeah the DPS loss was unacceptable. Same with the abomination of a rotation that comes in 3.2.1

 

The last point I'm going to bring up is how little all of the posts from the combat team make sense. You guys make contradicting posts, such as:

 

"Concerning changes to Annihilation/Watchman, we have reduced the durations of Rupture/Cauterize and Force Rend/Force Melt to create a more burst-friendly rotation with shorter DoT durations."

 

And

 

"We would like to take this opportunity to discuss Marauders/Sentinels and their present state in the game. To do so, we wish to start by outlining the rotational design philosophies of the three Marauder/Sentinel rotations.

Annihilation/Watchman: High Rotation Difficulty, High Sustained and Low Burst Damage"

 

Here's another one:

 

"Never Overestimate Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw: Some abilities are only designed to be used situationally. For example, as an Annihilation Marauder/Watchman Sentinel, you are only intended to use Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw in multi-target situations, while its damage is boosted by Pulverize/Mind Sear, and/or when stuck at a long distance from your enemy target."

 

and

 

"At present, we are considering adding Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw to the Weaponmaster’s/Challenger’s Critical Bonus trigger."

 

When you say things like this, it makes no sense, and then you give us no follow up information, so we don't understand anything... yet again. You guys will go against your design philosophies, but will use those same philosophies as an excuse why needed changes aren't happening. Maybe there's a good reason? You keep saying you want feedback, but you never give us yours.

 

For the first case, the community Begged the devs to make Watchman more bursty, more dynamic, and more difficult. And thats what 3.2.1 is doing.

 

For the second case, on live the 6-piece set bonus will proc every 72 seconds for watchman/annihilation. If TST/DST is added to the possibility of proccing it, then the 6-piece bonus would proc every 66 seconds for 3.2.1 Watchman/Annihilation, though without that addition the 6-piece bonus would proc every 67.5 seconds so...

Edited May 12, 2015 by TACeMossie

[KaellSolaris]

Justified on what ? People from the pts said it is around 9 %, but they said its 2.5 % nut they don't give us any kind of information.

 

So who do you believe ?

 

The one who made the test and are people like you or the one who also made test but don't give you any additional information.

 

Which to show how they do their rotation, then I may consider their information, but for now, the last time i saw someone of their team play a Mara/sent, it was during the presentation of the 3.0 discipline, and their forget that Mara/Sent uses two lightsaber... and has a combat form.

 

Not very encouraging, so for now, the L2P is not justified.

[TACeMossie]

Justified on what ? People from the pts said it is around 9 %, but they said its 2.5 % nut they don't give us any kind of information.

 

So who do you believe ?

 

The one who made the test and are people like you or the one who also made test but don't give you any additional information.

 

Which to show how they do their rotation, then I may consider their information, but for now, the last time i saw someone of their team play a Mara/sent, it was during the presentation of the 3.0 discipline, and their forget that Mara/Sent uses two lightsaber... and has a combat form.

 

Not very encouraging, so for now, the L2P is not justified.

 

Both the 9% and the 2.5% were calculated by Oofalong, who took different rotations and modeled them. Models are found here:

Rotation people tested on the PTS

Rotation created by me after dev post

(I already screwed up and let the cat out of the bag so no reason to hide it anymore)

The devs weren't the ones to give the numbers, the players were.

 

And I believe Oofalong in this situation.

 

Anyway, the rotation is as follows:

 

Merciless -> Force Melt -> Cauterize -> Zealous Strike ->

Merciless -> Force Leap -> Cauterize -> Master Strike ->

Merciless -> Twin Saber Throw -> Cauterize -> Force Melt ->

Merciless -> Zealous Strike -> Cauterize -> Force Leap ->

Merciless -> Filler -> Cauterize -> Master Strike ->

 

Merciless -> Force Melt -> Cauterize -> Zealous Strike ->

Merciless -> Force Leap -> Cauterize -> Twin Saber Throw ->

Merciless -> Filler -> Cauterize -> Force Melt ->

Merciless -> Zealous Strike -> Cauterize -> Force Leap ->

Merciless -> Master Strike -> Cauterize -> Twin Saber Throw ->

 

Merciless -> Force Melt -> Cauterize -> Zealous Strike ->

Merciless -> Force Leap -> Cauterize -> Filler ->

Merciless -> Master Strike -> Cauterize -> Force Melt ->

Merciless -> Zealous Strike -> Cauterize -> Force Leap ->

Merciless -> Twin Saber Throw -> Cauterize -> Filler ->

 

Use Overload Saber on cooldown, and Filler will either be strike, slash or dispatch depending on how nice RNG is to ya. Also clip every Master Strike after 1 GCD

 

EDIT - Upon checking again, the earlier maths done by Oofalong was fixed up due to resource RNG procs. Man I hate them...

 

Yeah the loss is a bit bigger than 2.5%, but its still not as bad as 9%

Edited May 12, 2015 by TACeMossie

[oofalong]

Both the 9% and the 2.5% were calculated by Oofalong.

..

EDIT - Upon checking again, the earlier maths done by Oofalong was fixed up due to resource RNG procs. Man I hate them...

 

Yeah the loss is a bit bigger than 2.5%, but its still not as bad as 9%

 

I am still not ready to confirm an estimated DPS loss. I kinda forgot about it over the weekend, and have been busy at work or raiding. Still, I will fix that model tomorrow to get a more accurate number.

 

The underlying issue remains the direction the Devs are taking the discipline is inconsistent with how the majority of players had hoped. And, instead of demonstrating compassion and empathy about the changes, they were demeaning.

[Kitsanth]

I have to recognize, you made an extraordinary work.

 

But unfortunately, I believe that the people concerned won't answer, or will delete this post. (I hope you keep a copy).

 

You explained everything well, but I'm afraid they will censored your post, I have done a post like yours in the thread "Harassment of Developers"(http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=811195), but every time it get remove.

 

So Basically, they are right and we are wrong, even if you prove the opposite

 

Mine doesn't discuss any sort of action, though. I'm just asking a few questions that will probably just be added to the pile of stuff they haven't answered. If they use the ToS as an excuse, well, I'll just ask them what offends the ToS and take it out. I don't mind.

 

The devs should be accountable for what they say, and everybody agrees on that, including the devs, apparently.

 

EDIT: Here's an interesting idea... why not just have one worker in the office work as the combat team PR guy? (maybe the guy who thought up the changes to annihilation lol jk) Almost anything is better than what we have. Or, heck, even a new hire would probably more than make up for the money they're losing by losing players due to this.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Kitsanth

[TACeMossie]

Pretty sure john is the combat PR guy

[Kitsanth]

Pretty sure john is the combat PR guy

 

Yeah, but I mean, they should have someone who's sole focus is on communication between the combat team and the community, which John doesn't seem to care too much about. For an actual dialogue to happen, there needs to be two sides, and we've not yet gotten anything close to that. We've just gotten posts saying we are wrong and then nothing after that. We need communication!

[Ardarell_Solo]

Both the 9% and the 2.5% were calculated by Oofalong, who took different rotations and modeled them.

 

I actually played the rotation you were referring to on PTS and reality is different than your calculations: The rotation is not maintainable, because resources don't work out: You're focus capped at some points and seconds later you're out of focus and can't refresh stuff . Which is why I stepped away from that rotation to one that delayed Force Melt and had full Master Strikes in it, as that did more DPS. But that more DPS was some 350 behind live.

 

I don't want to sound patronizing, but theoretical rotations need to be played in reality to see if they actually work out. I design them on paper first, too, going from ability cooldowns and ability priorities derived from DPS per activation/GCD. But it's for resource management you need to make changes in most classes (except maybe Telekinetics, but that's something else...) from that theoretical best rotation.

 

Meaning: Theoratically DPS loss would be less, if the rotation you're referring to was maintainable. But it's not. So I have to disagree with you on this:

 

When they said that, the community believed there was a 9% DPS loss from the 3.2.1 changes. Using dev feedback from said thread, I discovered it was actually a mere 2.5% DPS loss. In other words, the L2P was justified.

 

No, it wasn't, if you look at the facts.

 

Not mentioning that people were offended by the attitude that post showed. Which is not that much of a surprise, when you look at what it said and how it did that imo...

[DarkNecroCrusher]

I second this.

 

Fact is that they just don't know how to handle the community, that's all.

 

A CM should be posting at least 2 or 3 messages per day to answer players's questions, but we have days of inactivity and answers to low priority questions (cartel market, leveling concerns, low level gear, what do the devs love to eat, etc ...).

 

About the combat team, they are saying that there is a dialogue between the playerbase and them, but this is high level hypocrisy.

 

They read forums (or not, we can't see the difference), talk to us and then become silent untill new changes come live.

 

We give them answers, we give them feedback, but we don't know if this is acknowledged, ignored, not taken seriously or not possible to do cause they have their own "vision" of the game and that we, players, don't have our word to say on what will be done to improve the game.

 

They are just doing bad communication and don't want to admit it, but we, players, are suffering from this and so is this damn game.

 

Just look how other companies and games are working and handling their playerbase, and learn from that, cause right now, BW is just going head straight in the wall if you don't change your way of thinking and how you manage your game and community.

[Aumvaar]

Just look how other companies and games are working and handling their playerbase, and learn from that, cause right now, BW is just going head straight in the wall if you don't change your way of thinking and how you manage your game and community.

 

FWIW, the issues described in this thread -- player base gives feedback, then perceives developers ignore them & do what they want anyway -- exist also on the WoW forums & on EQ2 forums. I'm betting I can find the same sort of issues on LOTRO, GW2, & Rift forums, too.

 

NB: I'm not saying that these issues don't exist. I'm saying that these issues exist across the MMO genre; they are neither inherent nor exclusive to SW:TOR. IOW, telling Bioware to look at what other companies do would result in BW continuing to do what you perceive them to be doing now, & nothing would change.

 

FWIW -- after MMOing since I started with Ultima Online back in 1997 -- my perception of "player feedback" is that the sort provided by players like Oofalong & others -- i.e., the sort of feedback the devs actually need & want -- is buried in waves of emotional hissy-fit & immature outbursts. If I were a "community manager" the last thing I'd want to do is troll through acres of whining just to find the few nuggets of worthy information. I realize that's what CMs are supposed to do, but honestly I think we'd make their lives a lot easier by cutting down dramatically on the emotional spew.

 

As an example: my main is a Sorceror. If I go to the Sorceror board, I will see thread after thread telling me how bad off my class is & how much Bioware hates my class & how nobody wants to play my class in PvP or high-level OPs any more & how our DPS is hosed & there's no need or use for Force Storm any more & a whole metric butt-ton of other whining besides. & I'm going to tell my community manager to read through all that guffy nonsense to find the few bits worth developer's time? As a result of all this, my opinion -- unpopular as it will be -- is that the devs of all MMOs need to stop paying attention to the player base at all, because the vast majority of the players don't have the faintest idea what they're on about, & the few who do are difficult to identify in the storming mass of freak-out.

 

Or, better yet: to increase efficacy of community-to-developer-feedback, IMO the community needs to grow up. & if the community can not or will not do so, then the community will deserve what it gets.

[KaellSolaris]

Or, better yet: to increase efficacy of community-to-developer-feedback, IMO the community needs to grow up. & if the community can not or will not do so, then the community will deserve what it gets.

 

Unrealistic opinion, the trouble were cause by a few person and, unfortunately, there will always be some of these "black sheep" who are able to ruin the exchange with the CM

 

You can't ask a whole community to be more mature, most of it already is, our trouble came from a few number of person, and these person will continue to whine and troll just because that is their way to go, and none of us can control them.

 

And sadly we are all paying for their behavior.

Edited May 13, 2015 by KaellSolaris

[oofalong]

 

*snip*

 

For the first case, the community Begged the devs to make Watchman more bursty, more dynamic, and more difficult. And thats what 3.2.1 is doing.

*snip*

 

 

I do not agree with this characterization. While I may have missed it, I do not recall a significant number of requests for more burst within the discipline. As for a dynamic rotation, the most common thing I heard was a desire to return to some semblance of 2.X playstyle, which featured dynamism via a proc on Rupture/Cauterize. Finally, I do not recall anyone requesting a more difficult rotation. Again, the pleas I recall were a less clunky rotation.

[Costello]

It seems the devs have completely misunderstood how the different styles of play worked and decided that Annihilation/Watchman should be more burst damage yet wanting to maintain damage over time as its signature play style... So they want damage over time I.e. a constant tick of damage to be more busty? But that makes no sense, damage over time is sustained dps... hence the constant tick of damage....but they think it should be more burst like... but then how can you have it as constant damage ticking away if you want it to be bursts of damage.

 

While Combat/Carnage which has always been about maximizing a gore window and fast attacks is deemed to be easy to play and therefore should not be as rewarding? How is any mdps class easy to play when you have to stay within 4 meters to get to damage someone. How is a build thats built around a 3 second gore window not the most burst damage class? With no dots and difficult time on target how can this not be considered a bust class? Its a class that revolves around beserk (for the alacrity increase) gore, devastating blast and proc effects being triggered. Surely that is the very definition of a burst class and requiring more timing and dynamic play than simply learning a rotation. So how can it be deemed as an easy play style.

 

The devs seem to come out with bizarre comments that don't have any real meaning in the game and then don't follow these up with anything when questioned by the player base.

[WheresMyWhisky]

I do not agree with this characterization. While I may have missed it, I do not recall a significant number of requests for more burst within the discipline. As for a dynamic rotation, the most common thing I heard was a desire to return to some semblance of 2.X playstyle, which featured dynamism via a proc on Rupture/Cauterize. Finally, I do not recall anyone requesting a more difficult rotation. Again, the pleas I recall were a less clunky rotation.

 

I have to agree with Oofalong on this, the devs said it was meant to the hardest spec to play we spat out our coffee and when we finished laughing said no its not its easy, but we didn't actually ask for it to be made harder we just said we hate the new rotation can we have our old one back please? So 3.2.1 is not doing what the vast majority wanted. Our mistake was telling the devs it was easy as we seem to have upset them with that comment

Edited May 13, 2015 by WheresMyWhisky

[oofalong]

 

EDIT - Upon checking again, the earlier maths done by Oofalong was fixed up due to resource RNG procs. Man I hate them...

 

Yeah the loss is a bit bigger than 2.5%, but its still not as bad as 9%

 

I spent some time refining my models. I now estimate the DPS loss at just over 4%. The links are the same.

 

The planned 3.2.1 rotation now follows 30s blocks which are repeatable. The core abilities (which now includes Battering Assault / Zealous Strike instead of Force Charge / Leap) should still be used on CD. The dynamism in the spec now is balancing Force Charge / Leap and Assault /Strike with the occasional use of DST/TST and just the first GCD of Ravage / Master Strike. In other words, we get to prioritize our weakest abilities to ensure enough resource against two of our mid-tier abilities.

[Ardarell_Solo]

In other words, we get to prioritize our weakest abilities to ensure enough resource against two of our mid-tier abilities.

 

Say no more. Maaan....

[Bugattiboy]

A well reasoned and thought out post that highlights the flaws in their system and that they simply don't care? You better have a back up this somewhere because it's sure to get deleted at some point.