SWTOR is not Star Wars

[Kurkina]

This has bothered me for a very long time and finally I thought I would try to put these thoughts together coherently in hopes that it will spark some reaction from those who might have similar insights.

 

While SWTOR is widely praised for its story elements, I feel it is exaclty this, the story, that fails to align with the lore that it is based on. Star Wars, in my opinion, is about the light side vs. the dark side. Situations that illustrate this most basic confilct can include:

• being tempted by the dark side and resisting it
  
• being tempted by the dark side and falling
  
• being consumed by the hatred and fear that the dark side embodies and being destroyed by it
  
• finding ultimate redemption in the light side
  

... and various iterations and variations on these themes.

 

SWTOR misses the point of all of this entirely. The dark side is just one of several choices on a dialogue wheel that carries no real consequence for the outcome of your story or for the fate of your character. It is an irrelevant flavouring that gives your character a certain "style" but has no real impact on anything in the game world. Every dark vs. light choice should have a perceivable and consequential outcome on your story. While this might be difficult to achieve from a production point of view, it is alas the entire point of the Star Wars universe and just glossing over it as a sort of "seasoning" betrays what SW is about.

 

To deepen this examination, why is the dark side even a viable option to begin with? The dark side and the Empire are EVIL. They stand for slavery, torture, exploitation, murder, racism ... Why are we even able to choose such a faction and make dark side choices that support the things listed above? Because this game is a COPY of WoW. But in WoW, the Horde is not EVIL. The Horde races may be more tribal or militant than the Alliance, but they are not evil and do not seek "the dark side" as a means to power.

 

All of this coupled with the fact that lightsabers are just glowing sticks destroys any real connection between SWTOR and that which makes Star Wars Star Wars.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Kurkina

[TominatorBriss]

 

To deepen this examination, why is the dark side even a viable option to begin with? The dark side and the Empire are EVIL. They stand for slavery, torture, exploitation, murder, racism ... Why are we even able to choose such a faction and make dark side choices that support the things listed above? Because this game is a COPY of WoW. But in WoW, the Horde is not EVIL. The Horde races may be more tribal or militant than the Alliance, but they are not evil and do not seek "the dark side" as a means to power.

 

All of this coupled with the fact that lightsabers are just glowing sticks destroys any real connection between SWTOR and that which makes Star Wars Star Wars.

 

This bit just made me laugh, so the empire faction/ darkside is now a wow clone and lightsabers are just glow sticks, ive herd it all now, although i do agree that they could of added in more of a darkside lure that changed the out come of you story abit more, but what we got suffices enough for me atleast.

 

P.s i skimmed your post the minute i saw wow clone i though oh god here we go

[Shayddow]

I don't think this is true at all. There are definite ramifications, consequences in-game for light-side, darkside choices.

 

A few of them for example: imperial agent storyline what you decide on quesh decides the whole future.

If a Jedi knight or consular makes dark side choices to the point that they become dark-aligned, they get refused a seat on the council, and taken to task in front of the whole republic more or less. <it does align with STARWARS movie prequel, Anakin being on the council but not made a master.... >

 

As far as you saying, well, people shouldn't be able to align dark? So, you're saying there should be no freedom of choice, that we should more or less be robotic - I'm sorry, but I am not yet ready to be assimilated into the Borg collective... <pardon the trek reference>.

 

It is, after all, a game. Do not assume that we are or share our characters viewpoint. We are in a sense actors portraying a role. If we took your premise to its logical conclusion, there would be nobody able to portray an "evil" character in a movie either.

 

Yes, there are "bad" things done by our characters. Slavery, and I would venture its more "specie-ism" than "racism" - there is no differenciation based on "race", but those not human nor sith pureblood Are discriminated against within the Empire.

But, if you read the lore, that is part of the story. Read any of the expanded universe novels. Read the Darth Bane Trilogy. Read the Thrawn trilogy. Read Dark Force Rising trilogy. Its not like they didn't do anything evil in the movie.

I mean... the very first one.... lets blow up a whole freaking planet......

 

 

"we took our honeymoon on Alderaan. Good thing we took pictures..."

[Orien]

This has bothered me for a very long time and finally I thought I would try to put these thoughts together coherently in hopes that it will spark some reaction from those who might have similar insights.

 

While SWTOR is widely praised for its story elements, I feel it is exaclty this, the story, that fails to align with the lore that it is based on. Star Wars, in my opinion, is about the light side vs. the dark side. Situations that illustrate this most basic confilct can include:

• being tempted by the dark side and resisting it
  
• being tempted by the dark side and falling
  
• being consumed by the hatred and fear that the dark side embodies and being destroyed by it
  
• finding ultimate redemption in the light side
  

... and various iterations and variations on these themes.

 

SWTOR misses the point of all of this entirely. The dark side is just one of several choices on a dialogue wheel that carries no real consequence for the outcome of your story or for the fate of your character. It is an irrelevant flavouring that gives your character a certain "style" but has no real impact on anything in the game world. Every dark vs. light choice should have a perceivable and consequential outcome on your story. While this might be difficult to achieve from a production point of view, it is alas the entire point of the Star Wars universe and just glossing over it as a sort of "seasoning" betrays what SW is about.

 

To deepen this examination, why is the dark side even a viable option to begin with? The dark side and the Empire are EVIL. They stand for slavery, torture, exploitation, murder, racism ... Why are we even able to choose such a faction and make dark side choices that support the things listed above? Because this game is a COPY of WoW. But in WoW, the Horde is not EVIL. The Horde races may be more tribal or militant than the Alliance, but they are not evil and do not seek "the dark side" as a means to power.

 

All of this coupled with the fact that lightsabers are just glowing sticks destroys any real connection between SWTOR and that which makes Star Wars Star Wars.

 

 

This is cute. Somebody doesn't like someone else's nerd in their peanut butter. Unfortunately this is a liscensed Star Wars product... so ya it's Star Wars. Whereas your post is just the ramblings of disgruntled nerd~dom. Join the club many of us have things we don't think "fit" certain of our favorite fantasy worlds, but there's nothing we can do but make inane posts that fail to touch on any tangible reasons as to why we actually feel that way. Good show.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Orien

[SteveTheCynic]

Yes, there are "bad" things done by our characters. Slavery, and I would venture its more "specie-ism" than "racism" - there is no differenciation based on "race", but those not human nor sith pureblood Are discriminated against within the Empire.

There's some of that in the Republic as well.

 

Consider the quest given by Nik what's-his-name on Coruscant, to find his girlfriend who's been kidnapped by the gangs, and what he says about him being mistreated and not getting help from the security services because he's an alien (Nautolian) and all. And then play this quest on a human and on a non-human that isn't a cyborg either, and compare the dialogue.

 

[Kaisernick]

To deepen this examination, why is the dark side even a viable option to begin with? The dark side and the Empire are EVIL. They stand for slavery, torture, exploitation, murder, racism ... Why are we even able to choose such a faction and make dark side choices that support the things listed above? Because this game is a COPY of WoW. But in WoW, the Horde is not EVIL. The Horde races may be more tribal or militant than the Alliance, but they are not evil and do not seek "the dark side" as a means to power.

 

All of this coupled with the fact that lightsabers are just glowing sticks destroys any real connection between SWTOR and that which makes Star Wars Star Wars.

this game IS NOT WOW

And yes the empire is evil but its just a dam game sometimes its nice to be the bad guy, GTA popularity proves this and that's more real than star wars.

[freeoftime]

This has bothered me for a very long time and finally I thought I would try to put these thoughts together coherently in hopes that it will spark some reaction from those who might have similar insights.

 

While SWTOR is widely praised for its story elements, I feel it is exaclty this, the story, that fails to align with the lore that it is based on. Star Wars, in my opinion, is about the light side vs. the dark side. Situations that illustrate this most basic confilct can include:

• being tempted by the dark side and resisting it
  
• being tempted by the dark side and falling
  
• being consumed by the hatred and fear that the dark side embodies and being destroyed by it
  
• finding ultimate redemption in the light side
  

... and various iterations and variations on these themes.

 

SWTOR misses the point of all of this entirely. The dark side is just one of several choices on a dialogue wheel that carries no real consequence for the outcome of your story or for the fate of your character. It is an irrelevant flavouring that gives your character a certain "style" but has no real impact on anything in the game world. Every dark vs. light choice should have a perceivable and consequential outcome on your story. While this might be difficult to achieve from a production point of view, it is alas the entire point of the Star Wars universe and just glossing over it as a sort of "seasoning" betrays what SW is about.

 

To deepen this examination, why is the dark side even a viable option to begin with? The dark side and the Empire are EVIL. They stand for slavery, torture, exploitation, murder, racism ... Why are we even able to choose such a faction and make dark side choices that support the things listed above? Because this game is a COPY of WoW. But in WoW, the Horde is not EVIL. The Horde races may be more tribal or militant than the Alliance, but they are not evil and do not seek "the dark side" as a means to power.

 

All of this coupled with the fact that lightsabers are just glowing sticks destroys any real connection between SWTOR and that which makes Star Wars Star Wars.

 

lmao really now

 

Why *shouldn't* we be able to play Imperial Characters? If we're to explore the moral conflicts, why not give us more insight into the Imperial faction? Since when should stories not explore the darker aspects?

 

Like... that whole last paragraph sounds like you're screaming for grade school level story telling "No, you must not ever be curious about the EVIL faction for they are EVIL and no exploration of the EVIL Empire shall be made for it is so EVIL and stories should never go in depth about the EVIL VILLAINS!" like. Really.

 

I mean, I'm 100% done with people who say that the Republic is just as bad as the Empire but at least the Empire is honest!!11! because lol no, the Empire is a lot worse and being proud of it really doesn't make it better, but Bioware actually trying some more in depth exploration and giving us morally grey characters Imp side (and letting us play morally grey characters) is one of the things that *enriches* the story. (Aside from which, nothing wrong with wanting to play villain -- you can do that and shock! it doesn't mean you approve of the messed up stuff said villain does. I love my SI, but I don't approve of all the questionable and out right reprehensible things he pulls sometimes.)

 

Besides, SWTOR is hardly the first SW game that offered that choice? KOTOR did too, and despite being a singleplayer sometimes gave you less consequences than SWTOR does (particularly memorable was my "Oh stars how did me make him even douchier than before" Revan who started negotiating with the Sand People... Then decided that he was too lazy to walk back to Anchorhead to get the tech they asked him for so he just slaughtered them all. Then there was that time when he got less DS points for failing at reverse psychology and making those families on Dantooine kill each other instead of making up than I got when I broke the couple up. Or when the consequence for getting the Czerka team killed was Jolee scolding him a bit.)

 

KOTOR 2 let you do messed up stuff as well, Dark Forces 2 had an ending where Kyle casually murders the woman he loves and becomes the new Emperor, Jedi Academy has a DS ending as well... And even without the Empire (though Dark Forces 2 does have the PC rebuild Palpatine's Empire, I guess...) the DS choices are pretty evil, so :/

 

I'm also not seeing how including the Empire as a playable faction is detrimental to exploring the themes you listed -- the PC doesn't always have the end up being a shining paragon of the light to do that, after all.

 

An honestly, Star Wars can be pretty bad about morality in general (never gonna be over the fact that the only one pointing out in the actual game that what the Council did with Revan was horrible was the *Big Bad*).

 

tl;dr actually going in depth into the villainous faction is more likely to enrich the story than not and it's hardly the first time Star Wars let you be evil, anyway.

[Kyrrant]

The OP's post basically boils down to three questions:

 

1: Is SWTOR a clone of WoW?

 

...yes and no. Gameplay mechanics wise, its as much of a clone of WoW as Call of Duty 4 is a clone of Halo.

 

Similar gameplay mechanics, same persepctive and general way to interact with the world, similar basic strategies, but with a number of other differences (weapon variety, jump weight, vehicles in one and not the other...) that separate the games.

 

Same with SWTOR vs WoW. The lack of auto-attack, the companion system, the tendency towards fighting groups of enemies instead of predominantly 1v1 fights while grinding, a baseline out of combat self-heal, the cover system for Smugs/Agents... they took WoW's core mechanics (aka the Skeleton) and did different things with it.

 

WoW-like, certainly, but not a WoW Clone.

 

2: Is SWTOR's lore perfectly in line with the Orginal Trilogy?

 

Well, no. The OP's pointed out a few obvious discrepancies, its in a different era, its not a tightly focused Hero's Journey with the stakes of the galaxy, with a strict good versus evil mindset. Its much grayer, with those on the side of the Good Guys acting villainous, and many horrific villains given noble elements to their characters to make them less one-note.

 

So, no, I would not call it a completely in-line with Star Trek.

 

3: Is that a bad thing?

 

Hell no.

 

One of my favorite sci-fi series is Star Trek: Deep Space 9, a series that has gotten attacks time and again for being atithetical to the core themes of Star Trek. Star Trek's about optimism for the future, where humans will be unfailingly noble, heroic, kind, generous and have moved beyond greed, hatred, religion and violence.

 

DS9 showed the noble Federation and the main cast getting its hands dirty in order to deal with a powerful, totalitarian threat, engaging in murder, terrorism and even attempting genocide. It focused heavily on religion in parts, showed that violence was sometimes the only solution and far more.

 

Does that make DS9 not Star Trek? To me, the answer is no, because it still showed the heroes striving to reach that goal of a better future and a better mankind, but having do deal with the very real threats that would try to take advantage of it.

 

SWTOR's similar for me. It shows the gray that should exist in Star Wars, because the good guys aren't always so good and pure. Some villains are completely insane, sure, but others are heroic in their own ways, or indeed good men and women, just stuck on the wrong side and unable to see it.

 

If anything, it shows why good Jedi like Obi-wan and Luke are needed: To guide people away from that darkness. Its a more realistic, nuanced take on the franchise... and lets face it, it can be fun to play as the unrepentant, irredemable, psychotic monster sometimes .

[AshlaBoga]

Because this game is a COPY of WoW. But in WoW, the Horde is not EVIL. The Horde races may be more tribal or militant than the Alliance, but they are not evil and do not seek "the dark side" as a means to power.

 

Many of the Horde quests are far more "evil" than the Alliance quests.

 

If the Alliance is a light shade of grey, the Horde is a dark dark shade of grey.

 

Heck, some of the Blood Elf missions are far darker than some of the Imperial missions.

 

Remember the Warlock mission Horde side where you murder two lovers and use their hearts to summon a succubus?

[DarthDymond]

I agree that Star Wars, in its original form, had a very strong "black and white" morality. When the first movie came out, it was as straightforward a 'white hats' vs 'black hats' story as you could get. And that remained an element of the other movies, too. ("There are heroes and villains on both sides" in Ep. III is basically false advertising.)

 

So when you say SWTOR is not Star Wars, I understand the point you're trying to make, but I think there are two important issues to consider.

 

The first issue comes down to an issue of language / definitions:

 

For some people, when they talk about "Star Wars" what they are trying to reference with that name is the story told across the multitude of the works (books, comics, etc) that came out set in that universe.

 

For some people, when they talk about "Star Wars" what they are trying to reference with that name is the story told across the movies and only the movies.

 

We're talking about fiction here, there's no right or wrong way to use the name, but it's important to understand when different definitions are being applied to the same words, so that we don't get confusion.

 

So yes, if you are using "Star Wars" as defined in the second sense, then SWTOR is very unlike "Star Wars". But with that being, said SWTOR is actually very much like "Star Wars" as defined in the first sense.

 

The Star Wars universe of the books, comics and video games long ago embraced a more... complicated view of morality. It has sympathetic villains (who don't switch sides or get 'redeemed') and morally-questionable heroes (who stay that way). You often have 'the other side of the story' being explored while in the original movies they were 'the bad guys' full-stop. So SWTOR continues an established trend in this broader Star Wars.

 

For fans of Star Wars in the broad sense, this might be something that has added nuance and depth, and given us more interesting and engaging characters and situations. Hundreds of people dress up as Stormtroopers at conventions - SWTOR didn't introduce the 'bad guys are cool' element into the brand.

 

But for fans of Star Wars in the 'originalist' sense, the the morality play is a consistent element of the story. And works that reject those clear moral lines, no matter how good they might be in their own right, are certainly different than the Star Wars story.

 

I'll readily agree that while SWTOR is consistent with Star Wars, it is also very different than Star Wars.

 

The second issue comes down to the difference between elements of a story and 'key elements' of a story.

 

The black vs white morality play is absolutely an element present in the original Star Wars, but while some consider it a key element, others reasonably disagree.

 

Some people might instead look at the Prequels and say that those aren't 'true' to Star Wars because there's no equivalent Luke / Han / Leia dynamic throughout the story - they consider the trio dynamic to be a key element, while to others it's incidental. Some may say that a key element of Star Wars is the Jedi philosophy with its eastern, quasi-Buddhist tenets. Heck, when I saw Ep. II, I was put off by Obi-Wan walking into a greasy-spoon diner - I hadn't realized it until then, but the 'other-worldliness' and 'high adventure' vibe was a key element to me.

 

There are certainly aspects of SWTOR that are different from the original Star Wars, but whether those differences are between incidental elements or between key elements is a subjective judgment.

[gothshark]

(Snip n summery quote)

1: Story

2: Light VS Dark

3: Evil VS Good

4: Empire VS Republic

5: Light Sabers

Point by point breakdown of your post, good, bad, and other.

 

1.SWTOR is not Star Wars:

True, Star Wars the cinematic universe has a different cannon than Star Wars the old Republic, when the game was developed it did it’s best to follow what was then known as Expanded Universe Cannon, however since Disney has reset the EU, games like SWTOR exist in an alternate reality. Also because it is a RPG/MMO it has video game mechanics which change how somethings work.

 

2: Video Game Mechanics, vs bad writing by George Lucas.

As we all know, what it takes to fall to the Dark Side, is to be a whiny brat with extreme right wing political beliefs, who feel slighted for not getting respect.

In video games, the story has to be more believable, and has to follow mechanics which can be followed in every case. Over all SWTOR, and SWKotOR did justice to the concept of fall and redemption, while placing strong mechanics which are universal to everyone.

 

3: Evil vs good, the morality play:

More than just light vs dark, you can follow a path of right and wrong. Your character can be good, bad, or flirty/sarcastic. This deepens the character development, and ties us to the world we are playing in. We can follow codes of honor, or be ruled by our lusts, this changes the details and end result of the storyline, well as best as they can in a MMO.

 

4: Empire VS Republic, not a WOW clone:

Among the many choices in this game, is our first choice. Faction, the Republic and the Empire.

One is a decaying senatorial Republic with ancient traditions and a failure to support the little people, the other is a Nationalistic Ethnic focused Empire ruled with an Iron Fist by committee. Neither faction is comparable to Warcraft in any way. The Empire is based on a tame PG-13 version of Nazi Germany mixed with Japanese Feudalism. The other is a mix of Pre-FDR America and Caesars Rome without slavery. Whereas Warcraft you have two factions made up of Confederacies of convenience, and yes the Horde are the villains in the story, but because Blizzard Loves the Horde they try and dismiss how evil they really are, which is one in a long list of reasons why I no longer play WOW.

 

5: It’s not Star Wars, unless it has the Force, Light Sabers, and hyperspace.

The reality is the things that make Star wars unique in all of High Fantasy Storytelling, is the fantasy location is not medieval Europe, but a futuristic Galaxy with laser swords and magic called the Force. In reality Tattooine, Hoth, and other single environment worlds would be unlivable by humans, they would have atmospheres that would be toxic to human life, the reality is Star Wars could be remade as an Epic Fantasy set during the Fall of Rome, and it would work. But then George Lucas actually based the film on Akira Kurosawa’s Hidden Fortress, I recommend seeing that film.

Edited May 12, 2015 by gothshark

[MadDutchman]

Considering SWTOR in conjunction only with the OT doesn't make much sense.

 

You need to compare it either to Canon or Legends.

 

It very obviously works with Legends (which SWTOR is a member of) as has been mentioned earlier

 

It also works with Canon though, because this does not include just the movies, but clone wars, rebels and a few novels as well. While you have to look closer at rebels to see the grey characters, clone wars goes out of its way to show the other side of the story, and it's not all evil, and the "good guys" aren't all that good at times either.

 

Besides, insisting that Star Wars should maintain static boring stories because that is how it was done in the first place is just silly. Star Wars became great not because the OT had a great story (it was cliche at best) but because of the incredible universe it created.

[Ghisallo]

To the OP...on an aesthetic level I agree on a practical gaming level I have to say you are being a tad pedantic. Players want to play the way they want. Example...if you were playing a Jedi Knist as Dark side, would you have broken free from him? Heck would he have had to mentally dominate you? Would you be able to finish the story? Shouldn't the Jedi Order kick you out and not name you Battlemaster? Would your companions still sty with ya?

 

Most players do not want to deal with actual consequences to their actions. If they had dark or light side decisions that had real consequences (arrested for war crimes, kicked out of the Jedi Order, purged from the Sith, get a death mark for not fulfilling a contract etc) 99% of the players would lose their dang minds.

[Cuiwe]

This has bothered me for a very long time and finally I thought I would try to put these thoughts together coherently in hopes that it will spark some reaction from those who might have similar insights.

 

While SWTOR is widely praised for its story elements, I feel it is exaclty this, the story, that fails to align with the lore that it is based on. Star Wars, in my opinion, is about the light side vs. the dark side. Situations that illustrate this most basic confilct can include:

• being tempted by the dark side and resisting it
  
• being tempted by the dark side and falling
  
• being consumed by the hatred and fear that the dark side embodies and being destroyed by it
  
• finding ultimate redemption in the light side
  

... and various iterations and variations on these themes.

 

SWTOR misses the point of all of this entirely. The dark side is just one of several choices on a dialogue wheel that carries no real consequence for the outcome of your story or for the fate of your character. It is an irrelevant flavouring that gives your character a certain "style" but has no real impact on anything in the game world. Every dark vs. light choice should have a perceivable and consequential outcome on your story. While this might be difficult to achieve from a production point of view, it is alas the entire point of the Star Wars universe and just glossing over it as a sort of "seasoning" betrays what SW is about.

 

To deepen this examination, why is the dark side even a viable option to begin with? The dark side and the Empire are EVIL. They stand for slavery, torture, exploitation, murder, racism ... Why are we even able to choose such a faction and make dark side choices that support the things listed above? Because this game is a COPY of WoW. But in WoW, the Horde is not EVIL. The Horde races may be more tribal or militant than the Alliance, but they are not evil and do not seek "the dark side" as a means to power.

 

All of this coupled with the fact that lightsabers are just glowing sticks destroys any real connection between SWTOR and that which makes Star Wars Star Wars.

 

Really, no fall and redemption. You fat liar. Every force class has a potential to do just that. In this or that way, but it has. Now I'm torn whether to say it...aha! Consular has its ending if full lightside that is more SW than episodes I-III together. Just that ending. SW and SI, if LS, can both be viewed as a story of redemption. Especially if you factor in the Revanite quest on dk. The one with rebirth-a powerful RP/story tool if any.

 

Also, Empire is evil. Hell, not even Sith are automatically evil, as shown by the likes of Kel'Eth Ur etc. If Sith aren't automatically evil, why'd an Empire be? If you played an IA, hell even if you played IA on Hutta, you'd know that just because you live in the Empire, you don't have to agree with the Sith. Empire != Sith . The Empire is a colonialistic force, not that different from Britain during the colonial age. The Sith are mentally ill supervillains. But not all of them. Ok, most of them are mentally ill.

 

...what a bunch of balderdash! You should definitely play a Consular...

[freeoftime]

Really, no fall and redemption. You fat liar. Every force class has a potential to do just that. In this or that way, but it has. Now I'm torn whether to say it...aha! Consular has its ending if full lightside that is more SW than episodes I-III together. Just that ending. SW and SI, if LS, can both be viewed as a story of redemption. Especially if you factor in the Revanite quest on dk. The one with rebirth-a powerful RP/story tool if any.

 

Also, Empire is evil. Hell, not even Sith are automatically evil, as shown by the likes of Kel'Eth Ur etc. If Sith aren't automatically evil, why'd an Empire be? If you played an IA, hell even if you played IA on Hutta, you'd know that just because you live in the Empire, you don't have to agree with the Sith. Empire != Sith . The Empire is a colonialistic force, not that different from Britain during the colonial age. The Sith are mentally ill supervillains. But not all of them. Ok, most of them are mentally ill.

 

...what a bunch of balderdash! You should definitely play a Consular...

 

Mentally ill people are actually a lot more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators, so how about you don't perpetuate the narrative that is one of the lead causes for that violence?

 

Sincerely, a mentally ill person who is all kinds of done with that bs.

 

Also, the Empire *is* evil. Slavery, racism, a totalitarian state, eugenics programmes.... That doesn't mean every Imperial is evil, but the Empire itself? Certainly is. Still no argument not to let it be a playable faction since playing a villain=/=agreeing with their actions, and as you said, you can actually play your PC to be a lot more morally gray (or almost heroic if they didn't still serve the Empire) if you want to.

[Cuiwe]

Mentally ill people are actually a lot more likely to be the victims of violence than the perpetrators, so how about you don't perpetuate the narrative that is one of the lead causes for that violence?

 

Sincerely, a mentally ill person who is all kinds of done with that bs.

 

Also, the Empire *is* evil. Slavery, racism, a totalitarian state, eugenics programmes.... That doesn't mean every Imperial is evil, but the Empire itself? Certainly is. Still no argument not to let it be a playable faction since playing a villain=/=agreeing with their actions, and as you said, you can actually play your PC to be a lot more morally gray (or almost heroic if they didn't still serve the Empire) if you want to.

 

Right. Maybe I should've used the word psychopathic instead, but not all Sith are scheming. Some are just brutal.

.

.

.

...I shouldn't have used that line at all. The more I think, the more I understand that you can be a normal person, even as a Sith. Tbh, I was thinking of an Inquisitor while I was writing that. And that guy...they must've been kicking the crap out of him. And, yes, he is crazy.

[freeoftime]

Right. Maybe I should've used the word psychopathic instead, but not all Sith are scheming. Some are just brutal.

.

.

.

...I shouldn't have used that line at all. The more I think, the more I understand that you can be a normal person, even as a Sith. Tbh, I was thinking of an Inquisitor while I was writing that. And that guy...they must've been kicking the crap out of him. And, yes, he is crazy.

 

Kicking the crap out of him -- so brain damage, actually? And eh, the Inquisitor's particular brand of out of the box thinking might be called that, but provided you play them right the SI is actually a very smart person and can be downright manipulative. (There's a reason why my ls SI is my main and my fave story wise )

 

But yeah, equating mental illnesses with being violent is pretty ableist and honestly is often used to mistreat and abuse mentally ill people so it's not a good thing to do. A lot of Sith are just really horrible people, and you can be that without any mental illness at all. (Still wish I could play a villain that isn't puppy kicking without the game thinking they're actually nice though, but that's the issue with morality systems like SWTOR's. Game can't know the real reason to capture the Archon at the end of Makeb was to have him tortured before his execution as revenge, oops.)

[Kurkina]

My thanks to all those who took the time to think about this and reply. To those of you who were critical of my OP, your arguments are well made and I am thinking about them and what they imply in the context of the SWTOR gaming experience.

 

A few points II would like to make:

 

The "EVIL" Empire

 

Certainly, one can choose to play a light-side sith, or a politically neutral bounty hunter, and I'm sure some people do. But is that the hook for the imperial faction at the start of the game as intended by the developers? Or is it to give the general fan-base the option to go around killing everything with lightning? I believe that in terms of game design, the Empire/Dark-side is there to allow people to indulge in the fantasy of EVIL.

 

And here is the argument: I am NOT judging this as right or wrong, I am saying that it betrays the spirit of Star Wars as I understand it. Those that choose the Dark-side and align themselves with Imperial ideology (in-game) are NOT ONLY "heroes" at the end of their stories, but also identify all of this as COOL when compared to the "loser" republic light-side players. I find this social dynamic a disgusting perversion, and a sad and low catering by BW to the particular player base that would never play this game if this option weren't available.*

 

*(sad because it gives people a "thrill" without asking them to consider the morality of their fantasy)

 

The WoW issue

 

Yes, there are mechanical differences and many different systems and aspects. But essentially, the 2-faction system that enables PvP content, separate hubs and story content is the most basic foundation of both WoW and SWTOR. But in my opinion, it works in WoW, but distorts SWTOR completely. Why? End-game story.

 

In both games, raids (and to some extent dungeons and flashpoints) and the stories they tell are against a common enemy, or a "third party" if you will. I feel this works in WoW, but in SWTOR? Star Wars is Empire vs. Republic, sith vs. jedi, light side vs. dark side. The class stories handle this to some extent for better or worse, but then all this is thrown away and we all go and kill the Dread Masters together? (without real cross-faction groups, mind you...)

 

Until the focus of the end-game becomes Empire vs. Republic (etc.) and deals with the consequences of light-side vs. dark-side with redemption themes, it will NOT be Star Wars in my opinion, and will remain a watered down, illogical version of what WoW does with it's endgame.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Kurkina

[ScarletBlaze]

My thanks to all those who took the time to think about this and reply. To those of you who were critical of my OP, your arguments are well made and I am thinking about them and what they imply in the context of the SWTOR gaming experience.

 

A few points II would like to make:

 

The "EVIL" Empire

 

Certainly, one can choose to play a light-side sith, or a politically neutral bounty hunter, and I'm sure some people do. But is that the hook for the imperial faction at the start of the game as intended by the developers? Or is it to give the general fan-base the option to go around killing everything with lightning? I believe that in terms of game design, the Empire/Dark-side is there to allow people to indulge in the fantasy of EVIL.

 

And here is the argument: I am NOT judging this as right or wrong, I am saying that it betrays the spirit of Star Wars as I understand it. Those that choose the Dark-side and align themselves with Imperial ideology (in-game) are NOT ONLY "heroes" at the end of their stories, but also identify all of this as COOL when compared to the "loser" republic light-side players. I find this social dynamic a disgusting perversion, and a sad and low catering by BW to the particular player base that would never play this game if this option weren't available.*

 

*(sad because it gives people a "thrill" without asking them to consider the morality of their fantasy)

 

I understand where you are coming from due to some of the individuals on the dark side but they would have made those choices anyways. It is not the game that makes the choices for the individuals but the person. I.E. I have three toons on the empire side, and two of my empire toons (My sorcerer and my agent) are lightside because they do not believe in just killing individuals so the dark sided choices don't fit my character. My other one is right now neutral but I still have a ways to go with her.

 

There are more individuals on the empire side that do this as well but they are not in general chat and they tend to be more quiet and play with their friends and guild .

 

I disagree with the sentiment some of the individuals stated about the Republic and Jedi that they are loser and weak but it wouldn't matter if BW had made the choices some of these individuals would have done the same thing. Some like it this way and that is the why they do it. There are people who truly care about their character and will play like it matters to them.

Edited May 13, 2015 by ScarletBlaze

[freeoftime]

Again, the ability to choose being dark side has been around long before SWTOR with the original KOTOR, the sequel, Jedi Knight: Dark Forces 2 as well as Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, I think there's some ds stuff in the Force Unleashed games as well (heck, the first level of TFU1 has you play as Vader and after that his apprentice before you join the rebels), and there might be others I haven't played yet.

 

It's not Bioware ~catering~ to ~sad individuals~ that think ~evil is cool~. (You would have had people whining about how the Empire is ~totally better~ because ~at least they're honest~ either way because the moment the good guys become morally gray they're suddenly as bad as the in every whatsoever morally reprehensible bad guys. The only way to avoid that would have been making the Republic flawless and then people would have complained about that -- and tbh it *would* have been both boring and unrealistic.)

 

Bioware made an RPG, because that's what that company makes and what they make well. And RPGs give you the freedom to choose, and yes, those choices do include evil, immoral, questionable, ruthless, etc. decisions, because that's what makes these games interesting, that's what lets you explore more complicated as well as compelling stories. Are there people who are only going to make dark side decisions because "Evil is cool"? Sure! Is that a reason not to make RPGs or not to make Star Wars RPGs? Nope!

 

Aside from which, even when you find the bad guys cool and like the villains, there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean you don't recognize that these same characters are also morally wrong. I mean, my SI is one of my favourite characters to have ever played, but I still fully recognize that him conquering Balmorra or Corellia is wrong, that he's an important figure in an Empire I find utterly morally reprehensible.

 

I often like villains, but that doesn't mean I agree with their actions one bit.

 

Having the Empire playable allowed telling more and different stories as well as fleshing the conflict out more and making it more interesting. And making the game poorer simply because some people are gonna be jerks and yell about the loser Republic would have been silly, especially since you would have had people do that anyway. (And not everyone agrees that it goes against the "Star Wars" spirit, anyway.)

 

(And Star Wars can use some morally gray story telling anyway, tbqh.)

[Kurkina]

RPGs give you the freedom to choose, and yes, those choices do include evil, immoral, questionable, ruthless, etc. decisions, because that's what makes these games interesting, that's what lets you explore more complicated as well as compelling stories.

Agreed. But at the end of your compelling story filled with evil and immoral decisions, you are the hero and you are not in any way asked (by the story) to reflect upon what you have done and face the consequences of following the path of the dark side.

 

Which brings me back to the idea of my original post: this is not in the spirit of Star Wars as I interpret it.

[freeoftime]

Agreed. But at the end of your compelling story filled with evil and immoral decisions, you are the hero and you are not in any way asked (by the story) to reflect upon what you have done and face the consequences of following the path of the dark side.

 

Which brings me back to the idea of my original post: this is not in the spirit of Star Wars as I interpret it.

 

Aren't you? When the SI makes the decision to kill that Sith apprentice on Balmorra, his father is so distraught by it he attacks you and forces you to kill him. I quite like that guy and hearing what happens when you go ds there has made me very, very, very reluctant to ever do that. An agent who goes ds twice on Balmorra gets their contact killed (dat pixel guilt, man. And the guy was such a sweetie too :C) Yeah, a ds character still succeeds at the end of their story, but for me? The feeling is vastly different. My Trooper started out very ls leaning f sometimes doing bad things because Garza ordered them. He got darker during the second half of Chapter 3 and it was..... really tragic when he ended wishing things on the Imperial General Rakton he would have wholeheartedly condemned at the beginning of his story. (Actually made me sad when I started replaying and was reminded of how much more idealistic and good he'd been even in a hell hole like Ord Mantell.)

 

Yeah, sure, there are gonna be people that won't care but that's usually the people who just aren't that much into the RPG aspect in general and are here for other things. Still no reason not to make the game, nor does it mean it's "against the Star Wars spirit". I mean, how *are* they gonna thematize light vs dark if there's never the possibility to be tempted and even to fall? How can there be redemption without prior darkness? Yes, someone can play the SI as a cruel monster, but they can *also* have their class story end with redeeming ancient Sith ghosts to the light through their own light, and imho, the fact that this isn't a given makes that possibility all the more powerful.

 

That some players won't care that the game makes it pretty clear when you've done a very much not heroic ds decision (my trooper went ds on Oricon as well. The in game mail you get about what happened to the soldiers you forced to fight instead of saved and got off the planet was legitimately sickening. Or as yet another example, I played my BH through part of Makeb recently, and Cytharat's death scene made me regret the decision pretty much the moment the cutscene started. Heck, Niar's tone when she hears you're gonna let Cytharat die made me kinda regret it already.) isn't really any reason not to include them, especially when you say you actually want to explore the light vs dark conflicts and redemption.

[marvinx]

Agreed. But at the end of your compelling story filled with evil and immoral decisions, you are the hero and you are not in any way asked (by the story) to reflect upon what you have done and face the consequences of following the path of the dark side.

 

Which brings me back to the idea of my original post: this is not in the spirit of Star Wars as I interpret it.

 

So what if you win/ are the hero, though you are the bad guy? I personally like going at least partially dark side, because there are many pragmatic decisions in the category. I like winning because i was smart, ruthless and cunning, rather than because i was morally right.

[DarthDymond]

So what if you win/ are the hero, though you are the bad guy? I personally like going at least partially dark side, because there are many pragmatic decisions in the category. I like winning because i was smart, ruthless and cunning, rather than because i was morally right.

OP's not saying its a bad design in its own right, but that it is not a very "Star Wars" design, given that the movies had a straightforward good > evil moral to them.

And here is the argument: I am NOT judging this as right or wrong, I am saying that it betrays the spirit of Star Wars as I understand it.

You can think that God of War is a great game, but if someone threw a 'Star Trek' skin on it and plaster that logo on the front you might also say the product you got is not doing a very good job at being a Star Trek game.

Edited May 13, 2015 by DarthDymond

[gothshark]

 

The "EVIL" Empire

 

The WoW issue

 

Yes, the Empire is Evil. Ever since humans have been Human, ever since gaming was invented some people like playing the bad guys. Personally I play the bad and the good equally. There is merit in both. The thing is morality is and always will be more complicated than good versus evil. Growing up the Indians were the villains in history, and now they are the victims. The thing is every bad guy has felt they were doing the right thing, and unlike the cinematic universe with cardboard villains, Bioware has given us a fully functioning society with people just trying to survive. We keep forgetting, George Lucas envisioned the sith Empire being run by Devils who were hunted to extinction by the Jedi Order. He was the person who designed the first incarnation of that race, although it took comic book writers and now game designers to fully flush them out.

 

You sit around saying it is wrong to play an empathize with the bad guys, but from my point of view, you are the evil one. You are willing to murder an entire race because they are prone to the Dark Side of the force, and are energized by their passions.

 

WOW, didn't invent a single idea they use. Faction based PVP, Raiding, Color Code gear, all of it happened long before WOW. As it is, SWTOR has factions just like SWG did, granted in SWG you started neutral and could choose your factions through rep grinding. It still had Faction Based PVP, you could be either Imperial or Rebel, SWG came out 2 years prior to WOW, and had everything that WOW would later have, oh and the people who made that game made SWTOR. So they didn't copy a thing from WOW, they copied the game they made before they made this one.