WoW lost 3 mil subs in 2 months Swtor still gaining

[Heat-Wave]

I see a whole lot of people arguing as if they KNOW what is going on re subs, f2p's, revenue streams, knowledge of player emotions, motivations, behaviors, and so on.

 

However, NONE of you have any statistics to back up what you claim to know.

 

You DO NOT KNOW the number of subs.

You DO NOT KNOW the number of f2p players.

You DO NOT KNOW how many $$ f2p pays compared to subs.

You DO NOT KNOW who, precisely, buys from the CM.

You DO NOT KNOW individual players' "emotions" that determine what they spend.

 

You have ZERO reliable information about ANY of this stuff. You read a vague statement in a game magazine or a quarterly earnings report and purport to know precisely how to determine what is REALLY means.

 

But you really have no idea, and the fact that so many are so insistent that they DO know is, frankly, laughable.

 

I came across a Winston Churchill quote on Slashdot today:

 

"A fanatic is a person who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

 

We are making educated guesses...

 

But you're right of course, we really don't know...

 

HOWEVER, I do know something about public companies... I know that if the sub number was growing, EA would be shouting it from the rooftops. Their silence on the subject speaks quite loudly. The last time they "bragged" about SWTOR was when they talked about a million people logging in to play in a month.

 

Not PAY, mind you... PLAY... and they made no distinction between F2P, preferred, or sub.

 

It isn't what they say, it is what they DON'T say that speaks so loudly.

[Heat-Wave]

nope you are not getting it.

 

You keep saying that, doesn't make it true.

 

because not only you make it ALL about the money and ONLY the money.

 

Welcome to Earth... It IS all about the money, are you new? This is EA, a huge publicly traded company, money is the only language they speak.

 

not only you decided on arbitrary cutoff of how much money and the type of money spent actualy counts.

 

$5, $10, $20, it is all the same...

 

The whales that spend more than a thousand dollars a year are the ones bringing in the money.

 

but you are also completely missing the point of "HAVING PEOPLE TO PLAY WITH IS A GOOD THING" regardless of their subscription habits or spending choices.

 

I thought we were talking about money and who was paying for the game?

 

in SWTOR, because of timing of release and several other factors - it couldn't afford to be subscription only game. and yes, going f2p was in big part done to attract MORE people. hopefully people who will also end up paying, but just having more people to play with is more likely to inspire more people to invest more into the game. more time AND more money.

 

Because there is a sub option, I suspect that the majority of people who start of as F2P and decide to spend more than $20 or so on the game, end up subbing. They might buy a few unlocks, buy a few CC, then very quickly the math smacks them upside the head and they sub or quit.

 

Buy a few ops passes, escrow unlocks, etc. and very quickly you're spending a lot of money. Some people keep doing that, but because there is a sub option, most people buy a clue.

 

Now if there was NOT a sub option, then you'd be right, but I would play this game if the sub option went away and you HAD to buy all the unlocks.

 

and to reiterate what Raph's been saying.

 

making most money =/= best product. it DOES equal best at marketing though.

 

It depends on what your benchmark is...

 

Lots of people would say that the last few years of Call of Duty games have been rather rehashy at best, but they make billions of dollars, so are they terrible?

[Jumajin]

But you are missing the point that when an all sub game loses 1/3 of its sub's it has a MUCH bigger impact than a game with multiple types of revenue streams.

 

Blizzard anticipated that drop off months post expansion, and even warned investors of it in a call. So, it isn't a huge thing for Blizzard. It was expected and no doubt adjusted for on the corporate end.

 

That said, they also know they'll get another jump with the next expansion and with the upcoming film in Spring 2016.

 

Plus, WoW, as a game, isn't the only revenue stream for Blizzard. You are aware of the sheer licensing revenue they get from the World of Warcraft intellectual property, right? Never mind the minimal investment, but insane revenue, they report making on games like Healrthstone?

 

Blizzard isn't going to be hurting anytime soon, as much as gaming fans hate to hear that,

[Makrogai]

Besides I dont really think it matters really

 

Blizzard even said themselves back in 2014, if that if they earned 0 money from the game, they would still have enough money to continue wow to 2024 If I remember correctly.

 

Why can't people just accept both games? I still think WoW is the best MMO ever made, does this make other MMOS unplayable? No. I've tried to get into MMOS because I'm tired of WoW, being my only MMO for 5 years. All MMOS didnt really satisfy me aside from Swtor, and thats just because its Star wars and the 12x xp. I defy leveling.

 

Now i am going to shut the OP down because I'm a WoW fanboy. Swtor isnt bad but Im just laying out general facts.

 

Not a single MMO has managed to get a 4th of the WoW player numbers ever. You could me the argument for guildwars 2 but thats unfair since it doesent need subscription there.

 

Swtor went F2P, WoW didnt.

 

The golden age of MMOS is over. Even if 3 mil subs are gone, they'll just come back.

 

Start of expansion -> 7 M goes to 3 M. All the money they gain for the 3M is saved for the next expansion. Rest of 7 M is used for patch content whatever (IDK, 6.1 was miserable with 0 content at all). Then they use the money they got from the 3M people to create a new expansion, the people return and the cycle continues. This is probably not accurate but atleast it will keep the game alive.

 

Wildstar failed because it was too hard. Casuals are the bread and butter of MMOS.

Archeage failed because of Constant lying, hackers, gold farmers and everything

ESO failed because Skyrim fanboys wanted a Skyrim Co-op so they *****ed. Them going B2P was something they we're going to do anyway, they just wanted money. ( So what if they want money, if you worked in a gaming company you would do the same. You're in denial if you say otherwise. )

Edited May 13, 2015 by Makrogai

[Jumajin]

Besides I dont really think it matters really

 

Blizzard even said themselves back in 2014, if that if they earned 0 money from the game, they would still have enough money to continue wow to 2024 If I remember correctly.

 

Why can't people just accept both games? I still think WoW is the best MMO ever made, does this make other MMOS unplayable? No. I've tried to get into MMOS because I'm tired of WoW, being my only MMO for 5 years. All MMOS didnt really satisfy me aside from Swtor, and thats just because its Star wars and the 12x xp. I defy leveling.

 

Now i am going to shut the OP down because I'm a WoW fanboy. Swtor isnt bad but Im just laying out general facts.

 

Not a single MMO has managed to get a 4th of the WoW player numbers ever. You could me the argument for guildwars 2 but thats unfair since it doesent need subscription there.

 

Swtor went F2P, WoW didnt.

 

The golden age of MMOS is over. Even if 3 mil subs are gone, they'll just come back.

 

Start of expansion -> 7 M goes to 3 M. All the money they gain for the 3M is saved for the next expansion. Rest of 7 M is used for patch content whatever (IDK, 6.1 was miserable with 0 content at all). Then they use the money they got from the 3M people to create a new expansion, the people return and the cycle continues. This is probably not accurate but atleast it will keep the game alive.

 

Wildstar failed because it was too hard. Casuals are the bread and butter of MMOS.

Archeage failed because of Constant lying, hackers, gold farmers and everything

ESO failed because Skyrim fanboys wanted a Skyrim Co-op so they *****ed. Them going B2P was something they we're going to do anyway, they just wanted money. ( So what if they want money, if you worked in a gaming company you would do the same. You're in denial if you say otherwise. )

 

 

I have nothing to disagree with in that quote.

 

And yeah, Blizzard has a significant amount of cash available. I can't remember the exact number, but it's in various reports. I also know a report last year put the subs at 6.8 million and their revenue in excess of $1 billion per year. Which is about where they are now, since they supposedly exceeded 10 million subscribers for the expansion, and report a loss of 3 million for the post expansion drop off.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Jumajin

[VixenRawR]

True dat. So what if WoW is or is not the gorilla in the room?

 

I've played WoW....I tried to get into it. But it was not only boring, it was full of jerks, credit farmers and weirdoes. (and I play video games at age 51....so if you're weird to me you're weird!)

 

People always say SWTOR is dying. Well, there are a bunch of MMOs out there that I thought wouldn't be around right now, but they are. Age of Conan is still around and I thought it would never survive. It was a disaster at launch.

Secret World is still there and theres never been a sub requirement for it. Buy the game play forever was their tagline. I thought it might not survive, but its still there. Its pretty fun too. EVE online is still around. Lord of the Rings is still around. DC Online and Champions are still around. If they ever ever make City of Heroes again it might dent their numbers but I don't think it will kill either of them.

 

Heck, if City of Heroes had better graphics to keep up with the newer games it might still be here.

 

Star Trek Online is buggy still, barely works for some players and its still there. (granted they've done a lot of work on it, but its still not really that good.) I guess it survives because its STAR TREK. If it were just "SPACE ADVENTURERS it would die fast.

 

Star Wars is as popular, probably MORE popular than Trek nowadays. If STO is still there I don't worry too much for SWTOR. At least until someone comes out with something else that's so good everyone leaves to play it. But I don't see that happening for some time.

 

Why are people so worked up over graphics, I think anyone could turn on their N64 and have more fun with those games than 90% of the garbage released today. Fun has little to do with how you see it honestly. If the game is fun, you will HAVE fun. Just because I have a pretty picture doesn't mean its fun.

 

City of Heroes was by far the best mmo ever. The amount of t hings you could do in it, customization, outfit designer than makes the cartel store look like a limited item clearance rack at the dollar store. (Cept nothing costs a dollar). Actual, TRUE teaming. Anytime, anywhere, whenever you wanted, form a team of 8 and go fight for pretty much 99% of your experience on the game.

 

MMOs now just want to copy winning models which is stupid. If I wanted a WoW clone, I would go play WoW. The reason I play a NEW game is for a NEW experience. It would be like dating a new person with the exact personality as your EX...wow they look different but everything else is the same.

 

No thanks.

 

City of Heroes would still be here (Well for multiple reasons) Sadly people in high places making dumb decisions. Not to mention the lack of advertising for a game that was so fun.

[Gandherio]

Isn't there a relaunch of City of Hereos under the new name "City of Titans", which uses their concepts but other artworks?

[Bobs_YourUncle]

Why are people so worked up over graphics, I think anyone could turn on their N64 and have more fun with those games than 90% of the garbage released today. Fun has little to do with how you see it honestly. If the game is fun, you will HAVE fun. Just because I have a pretty picture doesn't mean its fun.

 

City of Heroes was by far the best mmo ever. The amount of t hings you could do in it, customization, outfit designer than makes the cartel store look like a limited item clearance rack at the dollar store. (Cept nothing costs a dollar). Actual, TRUE teaming. Anytime, anywhere, whenever you wanted, form a team of 8 and go fight for pretty much 99% of your experience on the game.

 

MMOs now just want to copy winning models which is stupid. If I wanted a WoW clone, I would go play WoW. The reason I play a NEW game is for a NEW experience. It would be like dating a new person with the exact personality as your EX...wow they look different but everything else is the same.

 

No thanks.

 

City of Heroes would still be here (Well for multiple reasons) Sadly people in high places making dumb decisions. Not to mention the lack of advertising for a game that was so fun.

 

Wait, the N64 sucks because it had 2 good games to play. I'd rather play on the SNES lol.

[Nomaad]

Wait, the N64 sucks because it had 2 good games to play. I'd rather play on the SNES lol.

 

Let me guesse....Goldeneye and..... starfox?

[Bobs_YourUncle]

Let me guesse....Goldeneye and..... starfox?

 

Ogre Battle and Killer Instinct

[Joesixxpack]

Let me guesse....Goldeneye and..... starfox?

 

The correct answer is N64 had only 1 good game, and hell yes it was Golden Eye.

 

4-man DM on the same screen ("Stop looking at my box you ***********!!!!"), and somehow it never got old.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Joesixxpack

[-Snakesan-]

The correct answer is SNES had only 1 good game, and hell yes it was Golden Eye.

 

4-man DM on the same screen ("Stop looking at my box you ***********!!!!"), and somehow it never got old.

 

Something smells fishy here...

[Joesixxpack]

Something smells fishy here...

 

Ooops, fixed.

 

SNES didn't have any good games.

[-Snakesan-]

Ooops, fixed.

 

SNES didn't have any good games.

 

Chrono Trigger, Super Mario World, Super Castlevania IV, and Earthbound would have you eating your words.

[Bobs_YourUncle]

Yeah snes had a ton of fun games, N64 was such a letdown.

[Joesixxpack]

Chrono Trigger, Super Mario World, Super Castlevania IV, and Earthbound would have you eating your words.

 

Implying I didn't play those and found them yawn-worthy.

[asbalana]

Besides I dont really think it matters really

 

Blizzard even said themselves back in 2014, if that if they earned 0 money from the game, they would still have enough money to continue wow to 2024 If I remember correctly.

 

Why can't people just accept both games? I still think WoW is the best MMO ever made, does this make other MMOS unplayable? No. I've tried to get into MMOS because I'm tired of WoW, being my only MMO for 5 years. All MMOS didnt really satisfy me aside from Swtor, and thats just because its Star wars and the 12x xp. I defy leveling.

 

Now i am going to shut the OP down because I'm a WoW fanboy. Swtor isnt bad but Im just laying out general facts.

 

Not a single MMO has managed to get a 4th of the WoW player numbers ever. You could me the argument for guildwars 2 but thats unfair since it doesent need subscription there.

 

Swtor went F2P, WoW didnt.

 

The golden age of MMOS is over. Even if 3 mil subs are gone, they'll just come back.

 

Start of expansion -> 7 M goes to 3 M. All the money they gain for the 3M is saved for the next expansion. Rest of 7 M is used for patch content whatever (IDK, 6.1 was miserable with 0 content at all). Then they use the money they got from the 3M people to create a new expansion, the people return and the cycle continues. This is probably not accurate but atleast it will keep the game alive.

 

Wildstar failed because it was too hard. Casuals are the bread and butter of MMOS.

Archeage failed because of Constant lying, hackers, gold farmers and everything

ESO failed because Skyrim fanboys wanted a Skyrim Co-op so they *****ed. Them going B2P was something they we're going to do anyway, they just wanted money. ( So what if they want money, if you worked in a gaming company you would do the same. You're in denial if you say otherwise. )

 

I posted the following in the crew skills section

 

WOW sub graph.

 

Release dates -

 

Cata 12/07/10

Mists - 09/25/12

Dreanor - 11/13/14

 

http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...rs-by-quarter/

 

No point, just interesting especially superimposing the release dates on the graphs. Draw you own conclusions.

 

-------------------------

 

Look at the graph. WOW grew steadily through Wrath and then started a downward trend during Cata. That trend has continued almost on a straight line basis, with launch blips, to today. I also played for about 5 years and remember what went on during and shortly after Cata. I remember the changes to the game and the dev attitudes that literally drove subs away. It appears that the trend has continued.

 

I recently tried WOW again and found the game to have changed into a slow and boring exercise. All of the pre Cata charm and fun were well gone.

 

In my humble opinion there are two things that I see. First there is a large unsatisfied demand for MMOs and second that demand is not being met because of the low quality of the games out there, lack of understanding of the potential customer base, and lack of care and appreciation by devs of their customers which generates products that just don't do it.

[OldFamiliarSting]

This bi-yearly doom and gloom about WoW's demise is incredibly entertaining.

 

It is easy to forget WoW and SW:TOR live in entirely different galaxies when it comes to size, scale and resources available for dev teams. It is entirely valid to compare game mechanics and such.. but size,scale and sheer post-release muscle..please, just don't. ;p

 

Some numbers to think about:

When WoW loses 3 million subs, it has lost more subscribers in three months than SW:TOR has ever had.

 

Saying SW:TOR has 500k subs currently is, I think, an extremely optimistic estimation. When WoW has 7 million current subs, that means SW:TOR currently has, at best, like 7% of WoW's subscribers.

 

WoW sells gametime, mounts and some vanity pets. Generally speaking game desn't do cash shop in any notable scale. It doesn't do lottery tickets. Cool looking gear you generally have to earn by actually playing the game. What WoW does do is character transfer, char re-name and and such. These services - alone - generate much more cash than SW:TOR's entire Cartel market and sub model combined.

 

 

 

I officially promise that you'll never have to face a situation where SW:TOR and WoW could really be compared, in terms of people playing them or profit made. WoW will always be in it's own dimension.

 

That is not to say SW:TOR hasn't, couldn't or wouldn't do great. I think it prolly does. Just that comparing muscle of SW:TOR to WOW is a bit like comparing muscle of modern day UO to SW:TOR.

What is UO, you ask? ..Exactly.

 

And Sure WoW will absolutely bleed subscribers. How on earth could it not. 10 years old game and all..

...I wonder if there are (m)any MMos who wouldn't bleed subs atm.

 

As WOD proved, expansion instantly revitalizes the game. WOW didn't lose 3 mil subscribers because it is dying. It lost 3 mil subs because it had 10 mil. heh.

Edited May 14, 2015 by OldFamiliarSting

[menofhorror]

Archeage has pretty nead sandbox features though

[RoboArthurDayne]

As someone who enjoys playing WoW on and off ever since it came out, one of the biggest things that helped it stay competitive is the devs making the game more relaxing, smoother and accessible overtime to everyone. The game kept its depth and complexity but made a lot of quality of life changes overtime so that the gaming experience was enjoyable.

 

Now, WOW questing/events are not very serious by any means, silly at times, but a lot of fun and immersive because players spend so little time worrying about bugs, tweaking gear, or fear of dying constantly, or stopping to heal (stop and go traffic). In addition, the devs weren't afraid to keep things humorous and accessible for all players but still keeping enough complexity so PVE & PVP min/maxers can still customize their gear/builds, in other words, it's not about dumbing down but rather lifting everyone up by enabling choice and not restricting players from wanting to do their thing.

 

You still have the option to climb higher, but it's not needed in PVE for example because you can still mass murder npcs/mobs for fun without spending much time tweaking gear. Keep in mind, it's hard to enjoy the lovely sights on a road trip when you are constantly sweating over the steering wheel alignment issues, gas tank, brakes, gas pedal, gear shifting, tires, windows fogging up... but eliminate the need to worry about that stuff and the journey becomes very much more enjoyable.

 

This brings me to SWTOR and why I'm spending more and more subscription time playing this compared to WoW. Not only do I enjoy the adaptive armor, story missions, cartel market collections stuff that are shared across toons, and the overall Star Wars setting but the recent changes to improve this game such as improved leveling experience with 12x class missions, Makeb GSI boosts, Solo Flashpoints & Super GSI Droid from Shadows of Revan, smooth progressive gear rewards from main story missions, smoother & faster leveling curve are a huge step in the right direction and highly welcomed.

 

These recent quality of life and gameplay improvements has finally pulled me away from WoW to be honest. Makeb and now Shadow of Revan was the tipping point. As fun and smooth as WoW is, the Solo flashpoints and GSI boost mechanic (and super Droid) in SWTOR is uniquely awesome enough that I will stick around for a very long while, rather than my usual play 1 month... get annoyed, vanish for a year to play 1 more month.

[Rafaman]

Archeage has pretty nead sandbox features though

 

It does. And I enjoyed a great deal until it became clear that Trion couldn't manage the game. It is just a comedy of errors over there.

[Cherepk]

I remember in wow when you got that Legendary back in wrath/tbc/cata whole server knew about it. When you got that lock lvl 60 epic mount you felt proud it was long and hard experience. Even epic gear was epic up until end of wrath. Now people get everything so fast no real achievement for either regular or hardcore players. On top game is 10 years old, without major innovation games tend to die after certain time and wow is not exception. Even PVE now is getting stale for many, re-used with adjustments encounters are quite boring now.

 

Anyway i still have 5 toons up to 60 and 2 toons to gear up in ranked this season.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Cherepk

[Henge_Wolf]

I remember in wow when you got that Legendary back in wrath/tbc/cata whole server knew about it. When you got that lock lvl 60 epic mount you felt proud it was long and hard experience. Even epic gear was epic up until end of wrath. Now people get everything so fast no real achievement for either regular or hardcore players. On top game is 10 years old, without major innovation games tend to die after certain time and wow is not exception. Even PVE now is getting stale for many, re-used with adjustments encounters are quite boring now.

 

Anyway i still have 5 toons up to 60 and 2 toons to gear up in ranked this season.

 

Although at one point I thought it was nice that they had looking for raid as a way to see content, I think now they are pushing raiding too hard. Not everyone enjoys it. I certainly don't. But content patches are always, always, just a new raid and some quality of life improvements. I could personally care less. Enjoyed leveling this expansion, quickly found myself with nothing fun to do once I got there. So I came here, where I can bask in an IP I actually like and respect, even if there are a few letdowns (that I'm yet to see, just saying no game is perfect). Just an observation.