Give us a Solo Queue only optioon: Tired of pug vs double premade

[Vember]

However, I wouldn't be opposed to a queue simply for the premades

 

Premades stop queueing when they have to queue against other premades. This has been proven so many times already.

[mmmbuddah]

I queue solo & always will, because I'm a misanthrope with no guild or friends. However, I wouldn't be opposed to a queue simply for the premades ... I'm just not convinced it's enough of an issue for Bioware to do it.

 

I'm guessing that one response -- which I don't recall seeing yet -- would be "form your own premade, get Vent/Teamspeak, & wreak havoc." That does seem, to me, the relatively obvious answer to the issue -- especially since the level 60 ranked game seems very much like something that should be dominated by premade teams to begin with.

 

I am by no means saying everyone should solo in ranked. I usually group for ranked. I am talking unranked mostly. The only reason the numbers are dwindling in pvp is because of the lack of support we are getting from BW, no cross server, no cross faction, no REAL class balance, no optimizations to benefit solo players, no optimization to benefit group players, no incentive TO group really, new players getting pitted against premades because of the awful queue system, etc , etc. If they would have supported it more from the get go, the queue times would be lower, the population would be higher, and pvp would be thriving. But, alas, BW is really against any form of hard work. Hell, I just noticed they aren't even putting in cover points for smuggles and agents anymore in the expansions! I mean, -HOW- lazy can you get?!

[Floplag]

OK lets be real for a sec... i am one of the biggest guys that give people grief for premades, but they are NOT an exploit or anything else to suggest they are anything but legitimate play. It is part of the game mechanics, it is 100% legit, and frankly a good fun thing.

 

Those who claim to do so only to "play with friends" and have fun... you are 100% right.

 

As is the case with most things though it has a dark side... those who do so for no reason other than advantage for example? Those who are running around in ranked geared teams farming regs, or trying to in some cases... those who never do anything but premade groups... one can make an argument for all of these things being less than intended or less than honorable, but, even then, they are parts of the game.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Floplag

[IsserWoloch]

A lot of people seem to think premades are full of nasty schemers gleefully using the power of teamspeak to enhance their mediocre pvp skills, afraid of any real challenge. As someone who premades a lot, it's really not like that.

 

I'll log on, ask in guild if anyone has a spot, and if not, queue solo until they do. Or I'll log on and someone I know will invite me, and into queue you go. If I queue solo I queue solo, but with an active guild that just doesn't usually happen. Also, games against other premades are easily the most fun, because they're competitive.

 

While I would be 100% against separate queues because of the increase in pop time, I would love to see Bioware *attempt* to match groups against groups. Right now, the queue will usually wait until there is enough people to start multiple warzones at the same time. It seems like it would be easy to check that pool of, say 32 players, and put groups on opposite teams. So say a 4-group + 4 solos goes against 3 solos, a 2-group and a 3-group. If there's only 16 people in queue, you may end up with a full premade against nothing but solos to keep pop times low, but the system should at least *try* to balance teams when it can.

 

While they're at it they can do the same thing for reg arenas. 4 dps vs 2 dps 2 healers is so many levels of stupid, and seems like a really easy fix.

[Floplag]

A lot of people seem to think premades are full of nasty schemers gleefully using the power of teamspeak to enhance their mediocre pvp skills, afraid of any real challenge. As someone who premades a lot, it's really not like that.

 

I'll log on, ask in guild if anyone has a spot, and if not, queue solo until they do. Or I'll log on and someone I know will invite me, and into queue you go. If I queue solo I queue solo, but with an active guild that just doesn't usually happen. Also, games against other premades are easily the most fun, because they're competitive.

 

While I would be 100% against separate queues because of the increase in pop time, I would love to see Bioware *attempt* to match groups against groups. Right now, the queue will usually wait until there is enough people to start multiple warzones at the same time. It seems like it would be easy to check that pool of, say 32 players, and put groups on opposite teams. So say a 4-group + 4 solos goes against 3 solos, a 2-group and a 3-group. If there's only 16 people in queue, you may end up with a full premade against nothing but solos to keep pop times low, but the system should at least *try* to balance teams when it can.

 

While they're at it they can do the same thing for reg arenas. 4 dps vs 2 dps 2 healers is so many levels of stupid, and seems like a really easy fix.

 

Winter i do not include you in some of those comments as i see you solo as much as i do in groups.. and thats fine.. but for many this is simply not the case. You are tough as nails to beat and i respect you as a player, but i cant agree with part of this. i hope you don't take the following personally as it is not meant as such...

 

There are a great many players on our server that never solo queue, like ever, you only see them in groups. If those same players ever ran solo i wouldn't give them the grief i do, but for most of them this is simply not the case.. they never queue without backup. The funny thing is they are only hurting themselves... if you only run with teams you are not as good as you can be alone. A mix of both is the best plan which ius why im grouping up more in season 5.

 

Add to this the fact that they only tend to run full team composition with heals and tanks in those premades, and the advantage is very large. Thats not just a bunch of guys "playing with friends", that is a conscious effort to go into the match as strong as possible.

 

Now, this would be fine, save for the fact that some of these people are buying into thier own legends and running their mouths and showing very little respect for the opposition, even when they get far more than they want in terms of the fight against them.

 

I cant tell you how often im in one of these matches against these groups and immediately know they are going to try to sit on my face and shut me down. As much as id like to think its out of respect for my play, it is more likely i am usually among the better geared and bigger threats plus being a Merc i am the easiest to shut down in theory... and of course in some cases they just dont like me... dont know why im really just a big teddy bear once you get to know me, lol

 

It has literally gotten to the point where it has become a strategy for me on some maps like Voidstar i will literally tell the entire team to go one side, i will go the other for no reason other than pulling the premade to me and staying alive as long as possible to basically sacrifice myself making the first cap easier on the other side.

[mmmbuddah]

Winter i do not include you in some of those comments as i see you solo as much as i do in groups.. and thats fine.. but for many this is simply not the case. You are tough as nails to beat and i respect you as a player, but i cant agree with part of this. i hope you don't take the following personally as it is not meant as such...

 

There are a great many players on our server that never solo queue, like ever, you only see them in groups. If those same players ever ran solo i wouldn't give them the grief i do, but for most of them this is simply not the case.. they never queue without backup. The funny thing is they are only hurting themselves... if you only run with teams you are not as good as you can be alone. A mix of both is the best plan which ius why im grouping up more in season 5.

 

Add to this the fact that they only tend to run full team composition with heals and tanks in those premades, and the advantage is very large. Thats not just a bunch of guys "playing with friends", that is a conscious effort to go into the match as strong as possible.

 

Now, this would be fine, save for the fact that some of these people are buying into thier own legends and running their mouths and showing very little respect for the opposition, even when they get far more than they want in terms of the fight against them.

 

I cant tell you how often im in one of these matches against these groups and immediately know they are going to try to sit on my face and shut me down. As much as id like to think its out of respect for my play, it is more likely i am usually among the better geared and bigger threats plus being a Merc i am the easiest to shut down in theory... and of course in some cases they just dont like me... dont know why im really just a big teddy bear once you get to know me, lol

 

It has literally gotten to the point where it has become a strategy for me on some maps like Voidstar i will literally tell the entire team to go one side, i will go the other for no reason other than pulling the premade to me and staying alive as long as possible to basically sacrifice myself making the first cap easier on the other side.

 

What server you on? This sounds EXACTLY like what I run into when I play against certain guilds on TRE. Usually the same case, they are god awful alone, IF they -ever- play alone, and annoying as bees when they are together.

[IsserWoloch]

Winter i do not include you in some of those comments as i see you solo as much as i do in groups.. and thats fine.. but for many this is simply not the case. You are tough as nails to beat and i respect you as a player, but i cant agree with part of this. i hope you don't take the following personally as it is not meant as such...

 

There are a great many players on our server that never solo queue, like ever, you only see them in groups. If those same players ever ran solo i wouldn't give them the grief i do, but for most of them this is simply not the case.. they never queue without backup. The funny thing is they are only hurting themselves... if you only run with teams you are not as good as you can be alone. A mix of both is the best plan which ius why im grouping up more in season 5.

 

Add to this the fact that they only tend to run full team composition with heals and tanks in those premades, and the advantage is very large. Thats not just a bunch of guys "playing with friends", that is a conscious effort to go into the match as strong as possible.

 

Now, this would be fine, save for the fact that some of these people are buying into thier own legends and running their mouths and showing very little respect for the opposition, even when they get far more than they want in terms of the fight against them.

 

I cant tell you how often im in one of these matches against these groups and immediately know they are going to try to sit on my face and shut me down. As much as id like to think its out of respect for my play, it is more likely i am usually among the better geared and bigger threats plus being a Merc i am the easiest to shut down in theory... and of course in some cases they just dont like me... dont know why im really just a big teddy bear once you get to know me, lol

 

It has literally gotten to the point where it has become a strategy for me on some maps like Voidstar i will literally tell the entire team to go one side, i will go the other for no reason other than pulling the premade to me and staying alive as long as possible to basically sacrifice myself making the first cap easier on the other side.

 

Nah, I don't take anything personally. As far as people who literally never queue solo, not much you can really do about that, people play the game the way they like to play the game. If the queue system attempted to match group v group *when possible*, I think that would help counteract that and be a win for everyone.

 

As far as premades trash talking the other team, I have zero respect for that. Just play the game.

[Floplag]

What server you on? This sounds EXACTLY like what I run into when I play against certain guilds on TRE. Usually the same case, they are god awful alone, IF they -ever- play alone, and annoying as bees when they are together.

 

I play on the Bastion, my forum name is my character name. Perhaps i should add that to my sig.. ill fix that

I dont think what i observe is unique to any server or game, this just happens to be one of the few games that allows teams to queue against non teams.

[Floplag]

Nah, I don't take anything personally. As far as people who literally never queue solo, not much you can really do about that, people play the game the way they like to play the game. If the queue system attempted to match group v group *when possible*, I think that would help counteract that and be a win for everyone.

 

As far as premades trash talking the other team, I have zero respect for that. Just play the game.

 

I agree with that completely, i wish it would make that effort. The one other thing that would be nice it to balance groups better and stop putting all the OP classes on one side if possible, i see that an awful lot.

 

See thats the funny part.. people accuse me of running my mouth, which i do, but 90% of the time i wasn't the one that started the jabbing. The other 10%, well we all have our inner Mr Hyde if we are competitive people and im an admitted a-hole so... ill take the blame for that much. OK OK maybe its more like 75/25 but still.. I'm not the kind of guy to just take it and roll over.. when i see someone doing this kind of stuff, im gonna call them on it.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Floplag

[alexsamma]

A lot of people seem to think premades are full of nasty schemers gleefully using the power of teamspeak to enhance their mediocre pvp skills, afraid of any real challenge. As someone who premades a lot, it's really not like that.

 

I'll log on, ask in guild if anyone has a spot, and if not, queue solo until they do. Or I'll log on and someone I know will invite me, and into queue you go. If I queue solo I queue solo, but with an active guild that just doesn't usually happen. Also, games against other premades are easily the most fun, because they're competitive.

 

While I would be 100% against separate queues because of the increase in pop time, I would love to see Bioware *attempt* to match groups against groups. Right now, the queue will usually wait until there is enough people to start multiple warzones at the same time. It seems like it would be easy to check that pool of, say 32 players, and put groups on opposite teams. So say a 4-group + 4 solos goes against 3 solos, a 2-group and a 3-group. If there's only 16 people in queue, you may end up with a full premade against nothing but solos to keep pop times low, but the system should at least *try* to balance teams when it can.

 

While they're at it they can do the same thing for reg arenas. 4 dps vs 2 dps 2 healers is so many levels of stupid, and seems like a really easy fix.

 

The system does attempt to match premade vs premade, however, it values queue time over all.

 

While premades vs solo queuers' has always been an issue in SWTOR, it is much worse now than it was when the game had a larger population; hell, it's not uncommon to get into match after match with and against the same "group" (even more noticeable when one faction has a very low population).

 

Here's a comment I want to make to the people in this thread who ***** about people who only solo queue/pre-made players who "suck" when they solo: When you see someone who usually runs with a group queuing solo do you mark and focus that person, does the other randoms in the game do the same because they feel like this is their chance to pay the individual back? It's no fun solo queuing and then getting focused by an entire enemy team because you are a noticeable face... and it's sure as **** not fun to take 3-4x everyone else's damage and still pull top damage/prot/healing (etc). I group and solo queue, and let me tell you, the focus is real when I'm solo, I've had games were I take 1 million damage and the next highest "pug" only takes 200-300k, I sometimes even have members of the opposite team apologize to me after the match is over because they know they are singling me out for focus; can you really blame someone for not wanting to solo queue when that is what they have to deal with?

[HuaRya]

PVP is not dying because of premade vs pug lol. It is still lively enough. The decline is because of class imbalance and lack of pvp content....not premades. In fact, if they made the switch to premade vs premade and pug vs pug...I am fairly confident it would do much more harm than good....kind of like deserter debuff. I understand the rational behind both ideas, but both would do more harm than good.

 

Well what would happen is within a week the dominate team would be determined in the premade queue and the lesser premades would stop queing and come to the forums to allow them be allowed to practice on the solo's by putting things back to how they were.

[Saikochoro]

I agree with that completely, i wish it would make that effort. The one other thing that would be nice it to balance groups better and stop putting all the OP classes on one side if possible, i see that an awful lot.

 

See thats the funny part.. people accuse me of running my mouth, which i do, but 90% of the time i wasn't the one that started the jabbing. The other 10%, well we all have our inner Mr Hyde if we are competitive people and im an admitted a-hole so... ill take the blame for that much. OK OK maybe its more like 75/25 but still.. I'm not the kind of guy to just take it and roll over.. when i see someone doing this kind of stuff, im gonna call them on it.

 

In all the matches I've played against you I have never heard you run your mouth. You are actually much more mild mannered that I would have expected in game.

[foxmob]

Well what would happen is within a week the dominate team would be determined in the premade queue and the lesser premades would stop queing and come to the forums to allow them be allowed to practice on the solo's by putting things back to how they were.

 

no. this isn't rated. in rated, only certain players queue and on certain toons. in premades, anyone queues on any toons. usually they don't double up on heals or tanks, but take me as an example: I'm very confident on my BH/Trooper dps specs. I haven't healed in a while, so I'm still trying to find my way, but I have no problem jumping into a reg queue as heals. I would never take a healer or a tank into either rated queue. I would never take my marauder into a rated match. I might take my veng jugg just cuz they're so easy to play (not that I'd expect to be awesome, but I wouldn't look incompetent). that's it though. no other toons or specs. when you see a premade, you aren't seeing 4 players on their 4 best toons. you might see that, but just as often you see me jerking around on my jugg to give my friend a chance practice his healing (I'll guard him) or me on my healer cuz my friends all leveled dps and are tired of not getting healers on the team. that's about as elaborate as "planning" gets in a premade. if you're a healer, you generally look for a tank to queue with and vice versa, because the game is designed for them to go together, and the matchmaking system doesn't pay attention to role. hence, guaranteeing your trinity team by Qing with tank/healer.

[Floplag]

In all the matches I've played against you I have never heard you run your mouth. You are actually much more mild mannered that I would have expected in game.

 

Oh i have my moments there is no question about that, but thanks

[HuaRya]

This issue isn't unique to PVP. Even more extreme on GSF. The other teams premade(s) usually end up focusing on the several that are putting up a challenge.

 

So it's really these two issues that premades are debasing the experience:

 

1. Discouraging newcomers to take an interest in PVP - being farmed by the premade

2. Discouraging veteran players from solo queuing - being focused by the premade

 

Or ask the question: How are premades in unranked warzones positively impacting the game?

[Floplag]

This issue isn't unique to PVP. Even more extreme on GSF. The other teams premade(s) usually end up focusing on the several that are putting up a challenge.

 

So it's really these two issues that premades are debasing the experience:

 

1. Discouraging newcomers to take an interest in PVP - being farmed by the premade

2. Discouraging veteran players from solo queuing - being focused by the premade

 

Or ask the question: How are premades in unranked warzones positively impacting the game?

 

I dont know if i would go that far and condemn all premades... i think those who are helping newer members or helping the team learn strategies and such are fine, or heck even just playing with friends... it is a social game after all. I have zero problem with people playing with friends and having fun.

 

For me its a very select group of people that I condemn... the ranked geared premade comp trash talkers that never run without the backup and show no respect for others. I will make them work for it to the last second and draw it out as long as i can just to be a thorn in their side.

 

I admit its get frustrating at times.. especially when you see the same group over and over on a given night and i will at times say stop beating m head against the wall and just razz them a bit for having to resort to that to win in regs... guess it all depends on whether im in my Dr Jekyll mood or if ive let Mr Hyde out for a run, lol

[Jadescythe]

I really hate these threads. There has been no movement on this subject one way or another since launch. Groups will always be allowed. Super queuers will always get made fun of for being terrible enough at the game to need a full 8-man. No matter what you change the matches will always be lopsided until you have the population to balance teams based on skill and composition.

 

Best advice is to play to have fun. And the best way to do so is to group up. Not so you have a better chance of winning, but so you always have a way to enjoy the experience no matter how well/poorly the actual games are going.

[Floplag]

I really hate these threads. There has been no movement on this subject one way or another since launch. Groups will always be allowed. Super queuers will always get made fun of for being terrible enough at the game to need a full 8-man. No matter what you change the matches will always be lopsided until you have the population to balance teams based on skill and composition.

 

Best advice is to play to have fun. And the best way to do so is to group up. Not so you have a better chance of winning, but so you always have a way to enjoy the experience no matter how well/poorly the actual games are going.

 

See you just summarized why it hasnt moved... you feel the best way is to group up, others do not, this is why there is no consensus.

 

See the thing isnt whether or not you could/should group up, the why really is the reason. If it is for fun and all those good things then it is 100% positive and a great thing... if it is for no reason other than competitive advantage, well, thats another discussion.

 

Group up have fun play how you like its your money.. all myself and others would say if you are doing it purely for advantage is to at least not be a douche about it

[Jadescythe]

See you just summarized why it hasnt moved... you feel the best way is to group up, others do not, this is why there is no consensus.

 

See the thing isnt whether or not you could/should group up, the why really is the reason. If it is for fun and all those good things then it is 100% positive and a great thing... if it is for no reason other than competitive advantage, well, thats another discussion.

 

Group up have fun play how you like its your money.. all myself and others would say if you are doing it purely for advantage is to at least not be a douche about it

 

There is no movement because everyone is focusing on a problem that doesn't exist. Simply grouping does not make a player better or worse. There are good and bad groups. There are good and bad solo players. Separating the two serves no purpose.

 

I can (and have) post multiple videos and screenshots of me solo queuing and succeeding against premades. Not only have I been in PUGs that outclassed and dominated premades, I've also been in PUGs that got stomped and still found myself conveniently competing with the top performers on the other team. If I can have a good game, the rest of my team can as well. Yet they just complain about X premade the whole game and claim that as the reason they managed 100k damage in the whole match.

 

Players are bad, they choose to deflect poor play in any way possible. Groups are a popular target as it's a mechanic with the potential for abuse. So anytime there is a premade on the other team, it's assumed they are perfect comp with top gear and coordinating in comms. In reality, good players could just as easily solo queue with the worst spec in bolstered gear and outperform 90% of the population.

[Floplag]

There is no movement because everyone is focusing on a problem that doesn't exist. Simply grouping does not make a player better or worse. There are good and bad groups. There are good and bad solo players. Separating the two serves no purpose.

 

I can (and have) post multiple videos and screenshots of me solo queuing and succeeding against premades. Not only have I been in PUGs that outclassed and dominated premades, I've also been in PUGs that got stomped and still found myself conveniently competing with the top performers on the other team. If I can have a good game, the rest of my team can as well. Yet they just complain about X premade the whole game and claim that as the reason they managed 100k damage in the whole match.

 

Players are bad, they choose to deflect poor play in any way possible. Groups are a popular target as it's a mechanic with the potential for abuse. So anytime there is a premade on the other team, it's assumed they are perfect comp with top gear and coordinating in comms. In reality, good players could just as easily solo queue with the worst spec in bolstered gear and outperform 90% of the population.

 

No, there is a problem when its abused. The intent of queue as group was not to obliterate undergeared players in ranked gear.

 

Like you i have often beaten these groups, usually because i have had good solo players on my side. No one player is going to make that much difference to take the credit for the win regardless.

 

Assuming everyone else is bad or deflecting cause they cant beat a premade is a ridiculous statement. All things being equal if all 8 players are of the same skill level and 4 on one side are in a premade that side should win, simple logic tells us that.

 

And for the record to get passed the nonsense i know very well the difference between a bunch of guys playing together for fun and what i consider to be a premade. Just because i see 4 guys from the same guild doesn't tell me premade for example.

 

Please stop assuming that playing together is the same thing as a premade, it is not. Were not all stupid and accuse without reason. Im quite sure you can tell the difference as well as i can between a bunch of guys playing together and a premade.. since that the excuse the premade crowd uses... it isnt exactly hard to see the differences

Edited May 19, 2015 by Floplag

[Jadescythe]

No, there is a problem when its abused. The intent of queue as group was not to obliterate undergeared players in ranked gear.

 

Like you i have often beaten these groups, usually because i have had good solo players on my side. No one player is going to make that much difference to take the credit for the win regardless.

 

Assuming everyone else is bad or deflecting cause they cant beat a premade is a ridiculous statement. All things being equal if all 8 players are of the same skill level and 4 on one side are in a premade that side should win, simple logic tells us that.

 

And for the record to get passed the nonsense i know very well the difference between a bunch of guys playing together for fun and what i consider to be a premade. Just because i see 4 guys from the same guild doesn't tell me premade for example.

 

Please stop assuming that playing together is the same thing as a premade, it is not. Were not all stupid and accuse without reason. Im quite sure you can tell the difference as well as i can between a bunch of guys playing together and a premade.. since that the excuse the premade crowd uses... it isnt exactly hard to see the differences

 

Based on the thread title asking for a solo queue, players playing together and tryhard premades are treated the same. It doesn't resolve the issue of creating balanced games, it just presents different issues. Honestly, the vast majority of players asking for a solo queue are underperformers. I understand where their thought process is coming from, but it's not a soltuion to any problems that normal warzones have right now.

[Floplag]

Based on the thread title asking for a solo queue, players playing together and tryhard premades are treated the same. It doesn't resolve the issue of creating balanced games, it just presents different issues. Honestly, the vast majority of players asking for a solo queue are underperformers. I understand where their thought process is coming from, but it's not a soltuion to any problems that normal warzones have right now.

 

I would have agreed with much of this but you completely lost me with the assumption that they are under performers. You dont and cannot know that, and the elitism is just silly

[Jadescythe]

I would have agreed with much of this but you completely lost me with the assumption that they are under performers. You dont and cannot know that, and the elitism is just silly

 

Hardly elitism. Players who perform at 10-20% of the level of the top players are underperforming. And they're always the ones who complained about the other premade the whole match. Since launch, any of the high skill solo queue players have been against a solo queue. Feel free to go back through the history of the devil premade thread that had to be deleted and remade several times from exceeding the post threshold.

 

I'm not saying what I'm saying because I'm better than them. I'm saying that premades aren't their problem. What you need is skill and role based matchmaking and the population to support that. Match players with other players like them and you'll never hear another complaint about premades vs. pugs again. It will also be nice for the higher skilled players to actually have competitive games as well.

[Saikochoro]

Please stop assuming that playing together is the same thing as a premade, it is not. Were not all stupid and accuse without reason. Im quite sure you can tell the difference as well as i can between a bunch of guys playing together and a premade.. since that the excuse the premade crowd uses... it isnt exactly hard to see the differences

 

I think the problem is that several people who complain about premades think that people grouping up = min/maxed premades on comms. Some people think they are all the same. There are those people that you define as premades, but many people seem to think that grouping up at all is evil. I have never been on a comm system, but I have grouped up with random comp before and been accused of being "premade loser" as some in this thread like to call it. I can understand how its hard to combat the min/maxed ranked gear, perfect composition, comm linked premades...I do understand that. But I think the mass majority of people grouping up are peeps just doing it for fun, but people even seem to have a problem with that, which I don't understand. I personally come across the super premades fairly infrequently. Most "premades" I come across are random composition groups. Some of those players definitely are good, but its still a random group.

[Floplag]

Hardly elitism. Players who perform at 10-20% of the level of the top players are underperforming. And they're always the ones who complained about the other premade the whole match. Since launch, any of the high skill solo queue players have been against a solo queue. Feel free to go back through the history of the devil premade thread that had to be deleted and remade several times from exceeding the post threshold.

 

I'm not saying what I'm saying because I'm better than them. I'm saying that premades aren't their problem. What you need is skill and role based matchmaking and the population to support that. Match players with other players like them and you'll never hear another complaint about premades vs. pugs again. It will also be nice for the higher skilled players to actually have competitive games as well.

 

lol, ok and how do you define 10-20% better or worse? Considering the current balance issues i know a lot of players that i feel have have more skill then others yet do worse damage wise for example than them cause they play harder or non fotm classes so... how exactly do you define that and make that determination i wonder?

 

Oh and when you use the word skill, as in "they need"... you absolutely put yourself in the elitist basket. Its very clear you consider yourself part of that top 10%... we all tend to have inflated egos and i dont know your names in game to say one way or another but you clearly look down on the masses.