So Bioware, about people bypassing the locked part on Ziost to fight the OP Boss etc.

[Halinalle]

What is difference between getting 204 MH now and on Monday?

 

It's huge advantage in game that has progression based endgame.

 

For rest of us not real difference tbh. I don't want to get MH now and I will never get it anyway ("l2gear noob").

[Icestar]

Hey folks,

 

As I mentioned earlier this morning, we very quickly isolated what the exploit entailed and began an investigation into players who have participated. As of now, we have identified those unique accounts which have gone into the blocked off area of Ziost, and killed one of the two bosses present.

 

Awesome! Keep on doing your great work

Edited April 30, 2015 by Icestar

[abrawlica]

LOL Exploit?

 

You crack me up bioware, you don't penalise chess players for outsmarting their opponets. neither should you penalise players for exploring the game and finding stuff out. even if its on purpose. you made the game, you made the rules. so if we find something neat about it. why should we suffer. hire better people.

 

Nuff said.

Owned.

[TrooperSteg]

LOL Exploit?

 

You crack me up bioware, you don't penalise chess players for outsmarting their opponets. neither should you penalise players for exploring the game and finding stuff out. even if its on purpose. you made the game, you made the rules. so if we find something neat about it. why should we suffer. hire better people.

 

Nuff said.

Owned.

 

Or when you find something that isn't working as intended (It's still software and bound to have some bugs, loopholes or whatever in it) you could have reported it and left it be instead of using it to an unfair advantage. (in this meaning seeing and doing content that isn't available yet instead of getting better gear (as assumed in another post down the line))

 

Something that has to do with integrity, what you seem to lack..

Edited April 30, 2015 by TrooperSteg

[Khiriath]

What is difference between getting 204 MH now and on Monday?

 

It's huge advantage in game that has progression based endgame.

 

For rest of us not real difference tbh. I don't want to get MH now and I will never get it anyway ("l2gear noob").

 

I don't see the advantage. Its not like guilds get scores or earn points against each other for how fast they can put down the boss. Further the endgame content is a team based progression. Having a better person on your team would only be an advantage if we were playing against other people. The bosses and mobs however have fixed stats, and do not fluctuate dependent upon gear.

 

So as there is no direct competition, there is no direct advantage.

 

Further any noticeable improvement is going to be highly dependent upon the player. A few days back I cleared TOS SM from underlurker(8m challenge setting) through Revan(last 2 bosses on 16m challenge setting) with a 6m group. 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 4Dps. Note none of us had full set bonus and the healer didn't even have a 192 MH, so maybe in his hands we would see some noticeable improvement with a 204MH.

 

I know another player, who can only pull off 22.7 APM, and for whom 1500DPS on a dummy is a really good day. Give him a a full set of 204 gear and we might not have to carry him quite as much.

 

204MH does not automatically equal advantage. If the stats are as much crap as the rest of the gear being dropped on Ziost, you may actually see a significant stat drop in key stats from lower gear. I wouldn't trade a set of optimized 186 for anything 190 on Ziost and that includes the 190mods.

 

Complaining about unfair advantage is in the end a joke in PvE in general and more so given the current state of Endgame on server. For the most part the 204MH is little more than a status symbol currently.

 

Oh for the day that BW will even look into PvP exploiters or treat them half as harshly as this. There the exploits lead to actual rewards, scores, and goods that are denied others that they cheated against to raise their own rating while lowering their opponents... Well one can always hope.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Khiriath

[TJtK]

Interesting thread this. Knowing a few of the people receiving 3 day bans on Red Eclipse that were presented with the opportunity to see the new boss content and enjoy the fight it would be unfair to comment further. The punishment for their "crime" seems just but a tad harsh given then didn't do anything other than fight a boss Bioware didn't want them to see yet. I haven't any comment to make other than it was an effort not to accept an invite the the raid group and then accept a summons to the fight and see this new boss. At the time it was with regret - now it is not.

 

That said this lengthy thread does not hide the fact that there needs to be more effort made on new content release to ensure the players do not get presented with temptation of this nature - we are after all only human and want to see the game. Had this been a lone instance then critisism isn't justified but over the years we have had many bugs, Zoist was bugged, Ravagers was bugged, DF was bugged, even Soa was bugged.

 

You answered the questions about this particular instance BIoware and thanks for that , can you follow this up with whats being done to provide the required security for future patches to avoid bug repitition?

[idnewton]

One of the things we tried to be clear about with the Ravagers is that we are serious about handling exploits. With that exploit, the Ravagers we were open about our process and the action we were taking. For this issue with Ziost, we are going to do the same.

 

If a player is bypassing the environment to access an area they should not be able to, and then killing a boss to get loot they should also not have access to, we absolutely consider this an exploit. We are investigating this issue right now, and will be actioning any player who participates, or has participated, in this exploit.

 

If you ever hear of or find something that can be exploited, do not test it yourself. Please notify us immediately and privately. Some of you brought this issue to our attention on PTS and we thank you for that. We closed that opening, but it seems that there is another method of getting into the area.

 

We would also like to thank those of you who did not exploit and who have brought this to our attention. Our goal will always be to create a safe and fair environment for our players.

 

Thanks.

 

-eric

 

Bravo. While I wouldn't consider this to be as serious as the Ravagers exploit, the message needs to be clear. And it is. Good on you.

Edited April 30, 2015 by idnewton

[captindoom]

Hey folks,

 

As I mentioned earlier this morning, we very quickly isolated what the exploit entailed and began an investigation into players who have participated. As of now, we have identified those unique accounts which have gone into the blocked off area of Ziost, and killed one of the two bosses present. For each of these players, they will receive a minimum of the following action:

• Multiple day suspension
  
• Removal of all gear earned through defeating those bosses
  
• Removal of all achievements earned through defeating those bosses
  
• Reduction in Elite and Ultimate Commendations
  

 

We will continue to monitor the blocked off area of Ziost throughout Monday, May the 4th, which is when it opens officially. Any player who is found to participate in this exploit beyond today’s notice will likely receive more aggressive action. Thank you all for bringing this to our attention.

 

-eric

 

I am very sorry to say but that is just a very weak form of punishment and will not stop someone exploiting again. The only way to fairly punish these people and send a message to future exploiters is the 3 points i have mentioned before:

 

1. Removal of all gear from all characters in account

2. Removal of all credits from all characters in account

3. 10 level reduction for all characters in account

[Kingsbount]

I am very sorry to say but that is just a very weak form of punishment and will not stop someone exploiting again. The only way to fairly punish these people and send a message to future exploiters is the 3 points i have mentioned before:

 

1. Removal of all gear from all characters in account

2. Removal of all credits from all characters in account

3. 10 level reduction for all characters in account

 

Yeah.

Also they must burn their house, kill their dog and scratch car doors.

Take it easy vigilante.

[Bluerodian]

LOL Exploit?

 

You crack me up bioware, you don't penalise chess players for outsmarting their opponets. neither should you penalise players for exploring the game and finding stuff out. even if its on purpose. you made the game, you made the rules. so if we find something neat about it. why should we suffer. hire better people.

 

Nuff said.

Owned.

Yes they did make the rules. One of which is to keep out of areas you're not supposed to be in. It's not that difficult and really no one has room to complain when they get smacked for breaking those rules.

 

Yeah.

Also they must burn their house, kill their dog and scratch car doors.

Take it easy vigilante.

It would certainly deter any further misbehavior by people using exploits and amuse me to no end.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Bluerodian

[taiiscool]

Bioware does yet another screw up and then blames the player base when their stuff ups are revealed.... their priorities are clearly well thought out here, instead of ensuring they don't throw out things and then claim "exploits" maybe they would be better off ensuring that their QA actually does its job...

[dacentabaal]

and what about people who got summoned into the closed area without even knowing it and did nothing about it?

 

You were there.. sorry but the same thing happened on Ravagers with some people being invited to a guild or friend ops group then transported without knowing what they were invited for or where they were going, BW just see it as "Our records show you were there, you are exploiting" simple as

[Sweeete]

I'm not exploiter. But it looks like biowares just wait for it!

They patch bugs very slow, but when someone exploit they answer immediately

 

P.S. sorry for my English pls

[MisterBlackJack]

Good that exploiters got punished.

 

But this is all on Bioware for releasing broken content again...If they didn't want people to access it they should have add an exhaustion zone and patched it on monday...

 

The whole point of this was so they don't patch Monday and people can just log in and access it without any downtime

[Darkwords]

You were there.. sorry but the same thing happened on Ravagers with some people being invited to a guild or friend ops group then transported without knowing what they were invited for or where they were going, BW just see it as "Our records show you were there, you are exploiting" simple as

 

 

During the Rav exploits, I had guildies that did it on 10-11 chars and not even a day off nor a warning. I know other guildies that got a day off and a warning for pretty close to the same amount of runs. Some people were let go, some not..only Biofail knows why and they aren't telling

[Raphael_diSanto]

I don't see the advantage. Its not like guilds get scores or earn points against each other for how fast they can put down the boss. Further the endgame content is a team based progression. Having a better person on your team would only be an advantage if we were playing against other people.

 

As evidenced by the post above you (this post):

 

LOL Exploit?

 

You crack me up bioware, you don't penalise chess players for outsmarting their opponets. neither should you penalise players for exploring the game and finding stuff out. even if its on purpose. you made the game, you made the rules. so if we find something neat about it. why should we suffer. hire better people.

 

Nuff said.

Owned.

 

Some people will treat anything as a competitive activity. No, you don't penalize chess players for outsmarting their opponents. But chess is defined, from the start, as a competitive activity. PvE MMOs really aren't. You're not in competition with your other players and you're not in competition with BioWare.

 

But people make them competitive, because people are aggressive, insecure idiots with severe lack of self-esteem and define themselves and their accomplishments in a comparative way to others by making up competitions -everywhere- just so they can "beat" other people.

 

PvE in MMOs isn't inherently a competitive activity. But if you're the sort of person whose self esteem is defined by 'coming first' and 'beating' those around you, you can turn anything into a competition.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Raphael_diSanto

[Holocron]

As evidenced by the post above you (this post):

 

 

 

Some people will treat anything as a competitive activity. No, you don't penalize chess players for outsmarting their opponents. But chess is defined, from the start, as a competitive activity. PvE MMOs really aren't. You're not in competition with your other players and you're not in competition with BioWare.

 

But people make them competitive, because people are aggressive, insecure idiots with severe lack of self-esteem and define themselves and their accomplishments in a comparative way to others by making up competitions -everywhere- just so they can "beat" other people.

 

PvE in MMOs isn't inherently a competitive activity. But if you're the sort of person whose self esteem is defined by 'coming first' and 'beating' those around you, you can turn anything into a competition.

 

I kind of have to disagree with the first part. It should be the due diligence of the devs to create and test content against intelligent players, and shore up any potential failures. It is the job of the intelligent players to pick apart and expose unintended design flaws, or how else would the stability and security of the product improve? There is a certain level of synergy between developers and exploiters.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Holocron

[GadgetDon]

The whole point of this was so they don't patch Monday and people can just log in and access it without any downtime

 

Because making it unavailable until Monday serves what purpose? Marketing? Please, they blew what little marketing they did on 3.2 in general, they aren't going to do anything else to talk about what else is coming on Monday. Storyline purpose? If there had been an actual cliffhanger break with an actual pause in the storyline, maybe, but now it just looks like a bug. Make players happier? Who is happier at this?

 

If they wanted to release the main content of 3.2 on May 4th, they should have done the patch on May 4th. And yes, I'm saying that from what they've described, what is yet to come is the main content, the stuff you'll be doing for the next months. Yes it's "dailies" but what is Oricon but dailies. And if what was released was the "main content" and there's very little, well, the mountain labored and produced a mouse.

[Bobs_YourUncle]

Huh, a post of mine here was deleted and I got no notice as to why. Oh well, guess I broke some rule with it. Problem is I don't know what rule, so Im bound to repeat it...

 

Lets see if I get a notice this time so I will know for the future. I simply responded to a poster who said that anyone who got into the area being discussed should be banned with an opinion that the tos violation was not that they got into the area, but that they gained an item by defeating a boss. TOS states exploiting in a way that gains advantage over other players is against the rules. So in my understanding, just getting into the area was not against the ToS, as that in and of itself gave no advantage to the player over others. Is it against the ToS to to explore areas to look for hidden places? Im extremely interested in knowing this, as the removal of my post implies to me it is. Should I just stick to the marked paths and not explore anymore?

 

Edit: To correct, it specifically states this in the Rules of Conduct "Exploit any bug in the Service to gain unfair advantage in the game and/or communicate the existence of any such bug (either directly or through the public posting) to any other user of the Service." not the ToS.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Bobs_YourUncle

[Khiriath]

TOS states exploiting in a way that gains advantage over other players is against the rules. So in my understanding, just getting into the area was not against the ToS, as that in and of itself gave no advantage to the player over others. Is it against the ToS to to explore areas to look for hidden places? Im extremely interested in knowing this, as the removal of my post implies to me it is. Should I just stick to the marked paths and not explore anymore?

 

^^This.

 

While exploits in PvP are continuously ignored.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Khiriath

[Grayseven]

I kind of have to disagree with the first part. It should be the due diligence of the devs to create and test content against intelligent players, and shore up any potential failures. It is the job of the intelligent players to pick apart and expose unintended design flaws, or how else would the stability and security of the product improve? There is a certain level of synergy between developers and exploiters.

 

Impossible. The ratio of players compared to developers ensures that developers will never catch every little thing that players intent on circumventing the rules can find.

 

That's why there are rules called the ToS. They specifically state that if you do something not intended, you can be punished.

 

Players were not intended to have access to that area until May 4th. Players managed to find a way in, even though the area was not intended to be accessed. They consciously broke the ToS and will be punished for it.

 

It's like the old axiom, "If you idiot proof something, nature will build a better idiot" but in this case you can replace idiot with gamer.

[Bobs_YourUncle]

Impossible. The ratio of players compared to developers ensures that developers will never catch every little thing that players intent on circumventing the rules can find.

 

That's why there are rules called the ToS. They specifically state that if you do something not intended, you can be punished.

 

Players were not intended to have access to that area until May 4th. Players managed to find a way in, even though the area was not intended to be accessed. They consciously broke the ToS and will be punished for it.

 

It's like the old axiom, "If you idiot proof something, nature will build a better idiot" but in this case you can replace idiot with gamer.

 

What is the difference between a hidden area and an area we are not meant to be in yet? The powers that be didn't make any announcement there were areas we are not allowed into yet. There are players out there that like to explore and find hidden areas, just look on youtube, its harmless fun. Hell, there are guilds devoted to this, just look on youtube. So basically, you better not try to climb that ledge, work your way down that cliff, jump around on those beams or you might find yourself in an area that the developers did not intend you to be in.

 

Now wait a minute, they have hidden things in hard to find places for us to explore and find... something is not right here.

[FerkWork]

What is the difference between a hidden area and an area we are not meant to be in yet? The powers that be didn't make any announcement there were areas we are not allowed into yet. There are players out there that like to explore and find hidden areas, just look on youtube, its harmless fun. Hell, there are guilds devoted to this, just look on youtube. So basically, you better not try to climb that ledge, work your way down that cliff, jump around on those beams or you might find yourself in an area that the developers did not intend you to be in.

 

Now wait a minute, they have hidden things in hard to find places for us to explore and find... something is not right here.

 

"Exploring"

 

Stop the pretense going in there to loot a boss via GS summons is not exploring. Stop making excusing for them. They know what they did. Now BW is doing there part. Deal with it.

[TsuDhoNimh]

Players were not intended to have access to that area until May 4th. Players managed to find a way in, even though the area was not intended to be accessed. They consciously broke the ToS and will be punished for it.

While what you're saying is fine in theory, it's a little more difficult to draw the lines in the sand when you look at the execution of so many mechanics in the game.

 

If anyone has ever killed the various named mobs on Makeb, what's the designed mechanic to get the one in the force cage? You either use a jump/force push to land inside of the cage (basically the same as the 'offence' this time) or you spam summon your companion until you finally get them to spawn inside of the cage. Both cases are cheesing the intended way for the game to work, yet required in order to get a kill there and complete the achievement (unless someone knows a different solution, but I've never heard of one).

 

While I understand the comments about the intent behind certain actions, when the same action is required in one area and punishable in another... it blurs the lines a little too much for anyone to suggest it's a black and white or a simple right and wrong issue.

[RaiderMid]

I kind of have to disagree with the first part. It should be the due diligence of the devs to create and test content against intelligent players, and shore up any potential failures. It is the job of the intelligent players to pick apart and expose unintended design flaws, or how else would the stability and security of the product improve? There is a certain level of synergy between developers and exploiters.

 

Fair enough if that was the goal. Lets be real, it isn't in a lot of cases. Some people use it to take advantage of a flaw without exposing it, passing it on to support. BW is far more lenient than I would be. I have no use for players that would knowingly exploit for their own gain.