Its time to give gsf a low and high lvl matches ..like in wz!

[darkbolly]

to manny new pilots leave gsf after getting slaughtered time after time by teams with mastered ships...can swtor make it more atractive for new pilots as wel??..so we might actually get more pilots and more diferend more fun matches?

[gsummers]

This may be a good idea, but I worry that the population isn't there right now to support two queues. Possibly an interim fix would be to improve the tutorial immensely to help prep the new pilots, rather than just throwing them in the deep end and asking them to swim.

[nyghtrunner]

This may be a good idea, but I worry that the population isn't there right now to support two queues. Possibly an interim fix would be to improve the tutorial immensely to help prep the new pilots, rather than just throwing them in the deep end and asking them to swim.

I totally agree about the tutorial. If they were to add a single thing to GSF, it should be tutorial related. Even if it's enough to be able to "challenge" someone to a duel in GSF. I firmly believe I could do a LOT more good teaching someone if I were able to do a combat simulation style match, with no time limit, and just me and the other person on opposing sides, but still able to chat. I could get a person used to hearing missile tones, the different lengths, recognize when a missile is actually in the air v just locking/locked, how to track and try to defeat evasive pilots, how to run from/avoid determined scouts etc.

 

This is all stuff I can "tell" someone, but I feel like it would be infinitely more beneficial to "show" them in a game situation, with them having their hands on a set of controls. It is absolutely not fair to just throw the kids in the deep end as is.

 

As for the split queues... I think the only way that would work would be with cross server queues. The population just isn't there to support it on most servers. Maybe even all of them.

[HiddenPalm]

New GSF pilots get slaughtered this is true. But so do new players in warzones. Without expertise youre going to get stomped, just like flying a starfighter without any components.

 

Having a better tutorial won't help the new GSF pilots on stock starfighters with no components. At least not any much better than the tutorial we have now. In fact I would argue the GSF tutorial is the greatest tutorial in the entire game! No other tutorial in SWTOR is as awesome as the GSF one.

 

The difference between Warzone pvp'rs and GSF pvp'rs is that GSF pvp'rs dont have NPC's or Dummies to practice on, as we don't even have free flight. And GSF pvp'rs can't ask anyone for a GSF duel.

 

The lack of free flight and dueling is what is really giving a serious daily black eye to SWTOR revenue. Investors need to take heed here. Because they are losing out on major money, daily. GSF development just stopped for reasons still unkown without fixing the problem of making it accessable to new players wanting to check out that aspect of PVP.

[Verain]

to manny new pilots leave gsf after getting slaughtered time after time by teams with mastered ships...can swtor make it more atractive for new pilots as wel??..so we might actually get more pilots and more diferend more fun matches?

 

The matchmaker already tries to do this. With the GSF population arbitrarily divided up by how people play an otherwise mostly unrelated ground game, and further divided by faction, the matchmaker has a much harder time than it otherwise would. Cross server would fix this more than anything, but I'm also of the opinion that cross faction queueing under certain circumstances would be helpful as well.

 

 

But as to your request? It is absolutely horrible. Rest assured, the only real way Bioware could kill GSF would be by making a change such as this. It would make the passionate players unable to get games entirely. Any idea that actively punishes veteran players (or even just aces) is absolute garbage.

[JediMinerBob]

I wonder how many people feel the same way about Warzone?

 

Sure, there is bolstering, but you are still at a disadvantage at lower levels because you don't have as many abilities (especially CC and CC breakers). Not level 19 yet? Then you don't have relics. Not at level 21 yet? Don't have an earpiece. Not at level 25 (or enough Warzone commendations to buy two from the PvP vendor at 20)? If you are missing any of those it means your Expertise is not at maximum, so you are nerfed compared to your competitors.

 

Once you get too high you need that second set of gear to use for PvP otherwise the bolstering system penalizes you for having gear higher than 162.

 

See, I am relatively new at GSF and I don't feel anywhere near the frustration level that WZ can bring about. Sure I get blown out of the air more times than I think I should. But I have had several matches in Warzone where they tag you coming out of the single spawn point. I have never had that happen in GSF (although I am sure someone will come along and tell me where it happened to them).

 

I know I am outmatched simply in equipment when I get off the first shot and lay into a stationary target and they hit me fewer times and still kill me. I got the drop on them and still lost! (Got to love those RFL!)

 

Maybe it is just me or my experience with the inequality that exists in WZ despite bolstering, but I don't expect a level playing field and I have never once thought about quitting GSF. Granted, I enjoy my time more when there are more people like me in the match - then I have more kills and assists than I do have in deaths - but you learn more from the tough fights.

 

Yes, as stated on many threads, a better tutorial - or better yet, training area - would really benefit everyone. I am sure that Drakolich would be more than happy to take you out to the field and rough you up!

[Varium]

Either remove faction restrictions and let imps and reps play on the same team or give both starting Strike Fighter and Scout enough Ship requisition to master it.

[nyghtrunner]

My major issue with comparing GSF to ground PVP is that the GSF skill delta is far more important, especially at upper levels, than gear. RNG comes into it a bit, but largely with gunship battles in cases where both players pop Disto, 1 hits, the other misses, despite having the same shot lined up, with the same variables involved. It happens at other points, especially jousting scouts, but in my experience, it's far more noticeable in the GS standoff.

 

I will not make the claim that gear is unimportant, but it's a bit different than ground PVP where if you have no gear, it's very, very difficult to accomplish anything. A skilled pilot or ace can do a lot in a stock ship, even to the point of carrying a match. I was grinding another toon up the other day, that I'd never GSF'd with, to get her raid ready for progression, so decided halfway through Yavin that I should take a break from the world grind, and do some GSF. Hopped in a stock GS, and posted a 20-6-0-85k line in the first game ever with the ship. The competition was not really intense, and I had the advantage of being an unknown with a basic ship bar, but I can guarantee you just about every other player in that match had better gear than I did. I had Wingman from Selana Rok, and I upgraded the crew because the toon was a BH, and lvl 60 with the main storylines done, so I had Blizz already, and Gault, who gives the ever important +5% acc, so the ship wasn't TRULY naked, but there was not a single upgrade to any component. Ran it back, and posted an 18-10-2-65k line.

 

Gear is very important to new players, but it is absolutely not the end all, be all of GSF. Situational awareness, and knowledge/practice of using things like the power management, the limits of the ship, the damage you may take, how badly an Ion rail will cripple you... These are the things that are the most important in GSF. Gear alone cannot bail you out of a bad situation. And if you go in thinking gear is the trump, it will get you into bad situations.

Edited April 16, 2015 by nyghtrunner

[StrixHiraeth]

Gear is very important to new players, but it is absolutely not the end all, be all of GSF. Situational awareness, and knowledge/practice of using things like the power management, the limits of the ship, the damage you may take, how badly an Ion rail will cripple you... These are the things that are the most important in GSF. Gear alone cannot bail you out of a bad situation. And if you go in thinking gear is the trump, it will get you into bad situations.

 

I've been playing GSF since launch, and I am a solid if not amazing pilot. Recently I started a new character, and thanks to the experience I think more than ever that gear is just as important as skill; probably more important, to most of us. When you can easily be killed by anyone with a steady hand, when you run out of engine power in a few seconds of boosting, when you have no weapons that can effectively neutralize enemies... your chances are pretty slim of flying "well" or playing an important role in a match against players of equal or greater skill. I realize that some pilots have demonstrated that they have done quite well in stock ships, but I think this is pretty situational and is the exception rather than the norm. Gear is extremely important, especially to average pilots. A lot of the skill is knowing what to do in a given situation, like you said--but you need the tools to do those things.

 

That said, it doesn't take THAT long to upgrade ships. A fraction as long as it takes to gear for ground PvP. And the fact that people CAN do okay in stock ships really illustrates the difference between ground and space PvP. I mean, I'd rather start a new pilot character than get into ground PvP because of the grind involved...

 

I do think that far, far too many pilots pay too much attention to the leaderboard at the end of the match; most of us do need upgraded ships to get those coveted spots at the top of the board. But you don't need to place high on the leaderboard to enjoy yourself or to help your team win the match, and I think a lot of people see that leaderboard and think they're doing something wrong when they really aren't.

 

I think it's wise to be careful, when dealing with frustrated newcomers, in downplaying the importance of gear. I daresay that pilots like the OP, if they were somehow given fully mastered ships, would have a much better experience.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Ymris

[nyghtrunner]

I've been playing GSF since launch, and I am a solid if not amazing pilot. Recently I started a new character, and thanks to the experience I think more than ever that gear is just as important as skill; probably more important, to most of us. When you can easily be killed by anyone with a steady hand, when you run out of engine power in a few seconds of boosting, when you have no weapons that can effectively neutralize enemies... your chances are pretty slim of flying "well" or playing an important role in a match against players of equal or greater skill. I realize that some pilots have demonstrated that they have done quite well in stock ships, but I think this is pretty situational and is the exception rather than the norm. Gear is extremely important, especially to average pilots. A lot of the skill is knowing what to do in a given situation, like you said--but you need the tools to do those things.

 

That said, it doesn't take THAT long to upgrade ships. A fraction as long as it takes to gear for ground PvP. And the fact that people CAN do okay in stock ships really illustrates the difference between ground and space PvP. I mean, I'd rather start a new pilot character than get into ground PvP because of the grind involved...

 

I do think that far, far too many pilots pay too much attention to the leaderboard at the end of the match; most of us do need upgraded ships to get those coveted spots at the top of the board. But you don't need to place high on the leaderboard to enjoy yourself or to help your team win the match, and I think a lot of people see that leaderboard and think they're doing something wrong when they really aren't.

 

I think it's wise to be careful, when dealing with frustrated newcomers, in downplaying the importance of gear. I daresay that pilots like the OP, if they were somehow given fully mastered ships, would have a much better experience.

As have I. And have started/leveled... Let's see... I believe 14 GSF alts over the 1.5 years since the sub's launch started. Not all of them ever reached mastery of even a single ship (although I've mastered no less than 8 stingfires from scratch), but since we're talking stock...

 

I don't claim that gear is unimportant, and I also went so far as to say that I think gear is very important to newer players. But give me a stock sting, let me swap the LLCs for BLCs, and the engine to Retro/BR, and let me get the first 2 upgrades for that, then swap out the crew, and I'm quite capable in that ship. It's a slight cut above stock, with a single component having any upgrade (Engines), and I'm competitive. People of similar skill with better gear will rip me apart, and I can't just carry matches in the same way, but I'll be at or quite close to the tops in damage and acc % (especially for non GS-types), which is where I look at the end. First thing I do with any scoreboard is sort by damage dealt. A guy with good acc and high damage generally knows what he's doing, and at this point, I notice those people a lot more than the guys who seal the deal. If it's the same person, sure, bit it isn't always.

 

I know I'm the exception with having at least 14 alts that GSF, but in my experience, unless you get into matches where there are multiples on the opposing team who are at or beyond your skill level, you can still come close to carrying, if not outright carrying a match. Points where the gear makes a real difference almost all involve edge cases. One example is how much of a pain it is to take a sat with 3 turrets in a stock ship because of the lack of armor penetration. Even undefended, if you're in a dogfighter, you have to be extremely careful because the turrets can and will kill you.

 

I guess case in point... A while back, Aimbot and Scrabs rolled new toons on JC. First match I found myself across from them, I groaned until the match started. I was in a mastered Flashfire. Scrabs had BLCs and BR (first, and maybe 2nd upgrade?), but Aimbot was bone stock. I beat them in that game, and in large part, felt they were somewhat irrelevant. I could ignore Scrabs (imagine saying that...), and go right at Aimbot, even with Scrabs following, and take them both down. In that match, the gear mattered a lot because the skill delta was minimal. In the abstract, I personally think they are both better pilots, but regardless. I swapped sides, joined up with them, got in a Bloodmark, and worked on savior medals while they went to work. In all of those games, they were #1 and 2 in kills and damage, and in a couple, both got into the 150 dps mark on stock ships. I think Aimbot even got something like 180 dps in one, and remarked, "The 200 dream is alive!"

 

In the first match, against me, the gear mattered a lot. In the others, the gear fell into the "bonus" category. The other matches, I wasn't needed, and was largely irrelevant as I worked on my savior by sat humping and watching them go to town.

 

So don't misunderstand. I absolutely think gear matters. But I do think that in general, the overall skill delta plays a much bigger role, especially outside of edge cases.

 

But again, this is a debate that's been going on for a long time. I don't believe I've ever flown with or against you in particular, but I know of you by reputation, and have heard you're a very good pilot, so as such, I respect your observation, and I believe I understand your position. I just believe in this case, yours is more the edge case, and going up against Sriia, Evgeni, Nemarus, Tommm, etc on TEH is the exception, not the rule. I don't win those games on stock, or even mastered ships, but in those types of games, I appreciate the gear difference a lot more than I usually would.

 

But those games, I'm sometimes pressed to hold my own even in a mastered ship, because those pilots are at or above my level already, and there's the multiplier effect of having more than 1 in a group against you.

 

EDIT - Please don't misunderstand, I'm using aces in stock as the baseline, which in and of itself is an edge case. And I'm not trying to start an argument or bring the same argument back up again. Just saying that this is my position, and here's why. I'm still capable of doing 35-45k damage @ ~40% acc with stock RFLs+Pods in a Novabolt, which is an uncommon number with that configuration even mastered. Am I the edge case? Sure am. But seeing so many scores in that range and with those conditions from various pilots, I can't come to any other conclusion than the pilot matters more than the gear.

 

And I also agree with you about the gear grind. Doing just the daily every day for a week, and you can start to see vast improvements to your abilities because of the ship upgrades. Grinding to top for a sub takes about 80 games or so, but you're close to max performance after like 30-40. For an equivalent example in the ground game, you're looking at a very long grind before you even have access to the top tier of gear. 100 games probably comes close to getting the base set with no min maxing, if I recall correctly. The grind up to the top tier with min/maxing is probably another 200 games or so? Not sure anymore... It's been a long time since I did much ground pvp. But I do remember that grind being awful.

Edited April 16, 2015 by nyghtrunner