Pyrotech Powertech PvP strategy

[cs_zoltan]

No it isn't in fact if you turned Pyro to pure K/E even with a increase in the damage coefficient, it would still be nerf because all you accomplished is making total **** towards tanks which are the only thing it's even remotely useful against in its current state.

Key word: current state.

 

Let explain something to you. Viability and effectiveness in PvP for a DPS class is determined by a wide array of variables of which sustained single target DPS numbers are only a small factor of.

You know what the best pressure class in PvP is? Hatred, also Madness Sins where the number 1 pick for pressure comps from 2.8 to 3.0.

Now Hatred has a large chuck of it damage from I/E, not as much as Pyrotech, but tell me how does Hatred fit with your "parse" math, it ain't pretty is it now, especially since it wasn't exactly dominating the PvE parse leaderboards to being with.

And yet, and yet it's got the best damn pressure in the entirety of PvP.

1. That large chunk of I/E damage you are talking about is 21.5% post nerf, even less pre nerf.
   
2. Hatred had the best DoT spread, better burst than Deception and better sustained too. All that added up to being op. Take away the sustain and the burst and nobody would've cared about it. That's what Pyro is.
   

 

Here the thing though, and 9k hit that will hit everything from a sage to Vanguard Tank for 8-9k consistently and is in the practical terms of PvP better than a ability that hits for 1k more, but only on classes with light/medium armor.

Not quite.

PvP Immolate: 9k

PvP TD on light armor (20%): 11717.47

PvP TD on medium armor (25%): 10985.13

PvP TD on heavy armor (30%): 10252.78

 

Besides your DPS numbers are completely false, why?

Because they are derived from PvE numbers. In PvE the boss doesn't deliberately look for and exploit weaknesses in your spec. In PvE the boss doesn't time DcDs in order to ruin your burst. In PvE the mobs don't kite you. In PvE you don't have damage sponges watching your target of target and guarding whatever is getting focus fired. In PvE the mobs don't coordinate CC in order to lock your healers and tanks down so they can burst down some poor sod. In PvE the mobs can't even use a interrupt intelligently.

What does that have anything to do with K/E vs I/E damage? Nothing. It's the same damn thing.

In PvP all of those things happen and more. Which is why the most important attribute in PvP is not some DPS number, but rather how the spec damage is applied. Pyro doesn't need to get it damage buffed. Pyro is suffering in PvP because the damage coefficients for it's mainstay killing abilities where nerfed through the ground in order to accommodate a bunch of dots that also have piss poor damage coefficents. Like seriously, do you know how garbage a 30 second duration dot is in PvP?

Dps does matter. Look at Concealment for example. It used to suck in PvP then it got like a 12% dps buff and suddenly it wrecked ***.

You can have all the mobility, utility, control in the world if you hit like a wet noodle you won't kill anyone.

 

Yes there is, it's called 30% CC DR. How do think hardswitch comps work? Also AoE cleaves, 30% DR or otherwise are almost always going to be more effective in PvP, due the simple reason that it's harder to heal multiple people that are all taking damage at once than it is to heal one person. That how cleaves strats work

30% stun DR applies to sustained as well, not just burst...

 

 

Nope, I can 100% garentee you that if you had a arsenal merc and IO merc free cast for a warzone the IO merc would lead the Arsenal merc by a mile. And if we factor in the fact mercs are going to get tunneled constantly since they are mercs, then IO ends up way damn higher just on the account that it has better mobile damage.

Do you have hard data to back that up, or math or something? No? Thought so. I do.

 

 

Not inherently, every AoE spec is naturally adept at exploiting guard simply because it's AoE. I/E damage is just icing on the cake in that regard.

Except that not all I/E heavy specs have good AoE as well. What are they supposed to do?

[Zoom_VI]

I would love to hear your explanation for how old AP was as strong as it was, considering nearly all of old AP's damage was elemental.

 

For a spec to be viable in PvP there is one single factor that is universally important. The spec has to excel at something, simply put the spec must have one thing it can do better and thus use as leverage against opponents. Current AP's only strength is burst damage, but it is still one of the strongest specs in PvP because it outclasses everyone else in that one category by a mile. Hatred makes it's mark in that it outclasses everyone else in the raw sustained DPS department. For Deception it's target control, for Lightning it's ranged mobility, for Gunnery it's frontloaded burst, for concealment it's being nearly impossible to pin down, for Vigilance it's raw survivability.

 

With Plasmatech however they tried combining elements of a Cleave spec, with elements of a pseudo single target burst spec, and with elements of a dotspec (or "sustained" as it's called in PvE) The end result is that Pyrotech is mediocre in all of the above. While Old AP did share the pseudo single target spec traits with modern Pyrotech, old AP was also the bar none the best AoE Burst spec in the game, and was arguably the best tank killer in the game. (Although the tank tunneling post 2.8 Madness Sin could compete in that spot.)

 

Plasmatech being mediocre in all catagories means that:

1) it has zero advantages it can leverage against opponents.

2) all opponents will have advantages they can leverage over plasmatech

 

 

Do you have hard data to back that up, or math or something? No? Thought so..

Do you have any hard data that connects your random "parse" number with actual PvP effectiveness? No? I didn't think so. Numbers are meaningless without practical application, and theoretical parse numbers derived from PvE parses have no practical meaning in PvP.

 

Except that not all I/E heavy specs have good AoE as well. What are they supposed to do?

Stop being dense, if said class is burst they can do what every burst class does, if it's more of a sustained design they can tunnel.

 

Heck there is a entire strategy in ranked (not so popular now but it was huge back in the later half of season 1) known as tank tunneling where you take I/E specs and just tunnel the tank into the ground based on the idea that the tank is the squishiest target since tanks can't guard themselves.

 

30% stun DR applies to sustained as well, not just burst...

Burst classes in competitive PvP are used in what is called a "Hardswitch comp" a key part of hardswitch is to - you guessed it - hardstun the target because you don't want your target to be running around popping DcDs when you are trying to burst them down.

And the smarter players in regs and solos will also use CC to cover their burst.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[cs_zoltan]

I would love to hear your explanation for how old AP was as strong as it was, considering nearly all of old AP's damage was elemental.

1. It wasn't that good.
   
2. It was the best AoE spec after the Rage nerf. Right now Pyro is not even in top 5.
   
3. It had really good defenses back in the day.
   

 

Do you have any hard data that connects your random "parse" number with actual PvP effectiveness? No? I didn't think so. Numbers are meaningless without practical application, and theoretical parse numbers derived from PvE parses have no practical meaning in PvP.

I have math showing their highest potential dps. It's still more accurate than your wild guessing. I'm not gona go into "dps matters" dicussion again because it's clearly over your head.

 

Stop being dense, if said class is burst they can do what every burst class does, if it's more of a sustained design they can tunnel.

 

Heck there is a entire strategy in ranked (not so popular now but it was huge back in the later half of season 1) known as tank tunneling where you take I/E specs and just tunnel the tank into the ground based on the idea that the tank is the squishiest target since tanks can't guard themselves.

So you say the 9 sustained classes in the game are only good to kill 3 tank classes? Awesome. So useful

 

Burst classes in competitive PvP are used in what is called a "Hardswitch comp" a key part of hardswitch is to - you guessed it - hardstun the target because you don't want your target to be running around popping DcDs when you are trying to burst them down.

And the smarter players in regs and solos will also use CC to cover their burst.

That's all very nice, but it still affects sustained dps as well...

 

 

----------

 

Just to sum up what you are actually saying:

One of the few things the Devs and the Community agrees on is that sustained spec have to outparse burst specs in order to be viable because of the longer setup time, long duration DoTs and lower burst.

And you say that it's okay that in PvP it's not true and burst specs can have as much, or in some cases even more dps than sustained specs.

[Zoom_VI]

[*]It wasn't that good.

maybe for pugging regs, but in any coordinated environment the spec was strong.

It was the best AoE spec after the Rage nerf.

Ok, and? Besides the whole reason AP got big in season 1 was because it was the perfect counterclass to rage.

 

Right now Pyro is not even in top 5.

No sh*t Sherlock, and it's because all of that AoE was gutted in order make way for the dot mechanics that the spec was never designed to have anyway.

[*]It had really good defenses back in the day.

Not really, it had really good AoE defensives, in a single target environment old Pyro was far better defensively than old AP. And hell 3.0 AP has all of old AP defensives plus some of old Pyro's, and 3.0 AP is the second squishiest class in PvP.

 

 

I have math showing their highest potential dps. It's still more accurate than your wild guessing. I'm not gona go into "dps matters" dicussion again because it's clearly over your head.

You can't apply Math to PvP strategy, Pyrotech could have 6k DPS in PvE and it would still be trash in PvP with how its setup currently.

 

There is this thing called "practical application" your "parse" numbers don't compensate for. And in PvP "practical application" >>>>>>>>>> "parse number"

 

 

So you say the 9 sustained classes in the game are only good to kill 3 tank classes? Awesome. So useful

"Is good for x" != "is only good for x."

Stop being dense.

 

 

That's all very nice, but it still affects sustained dps as well...

No not to the degree it does burst specs. Pressure strats don't rely on coordinated target hardstunning because there is no point too. pressure specs are for applying pressure and whittling the enemy down.

 

Just to sum up what you are actually saying:

One of the few things the Devs and the Community agrees on is that sustained spec have to outparse burst specs in order to be viable because of the longer setup time, long duration DoTs and lower burst.

And you say that it's okay that in PvP it's not true and burst specs can have as much, or in some cases even more dps than sustained specs.

I have said none of that nor do I care about any of that, because parse numbers don't frikking matter in PvP, and I've been telling you that the whole damn thread. Plasmatech could easily be turned into a extremely strong PvP spec without even touching it's PvE parses. Plasmatech doesn't need DPS buffs it needs it's damage rearranged do that it's damage isn't spread across a mess of mismatched skills.

 

 

I don't even know why I'm bothering anymore, it become rather obvious you can't even begin to comprehend how PvP works, and that view everything in terms of the PvE way of doing things.

 

I understand your math about how I/E works going from PvE to PvP, and I already understand the idea of sustained parse > burst spec parse.

What you don't understand is that when talking about PvP, parse numbers are totally flipping irrelevant. There is a reason nobody ever posts parses from the combat training dummy, because parse numbers don't account for the practical concerns that arise when dealing with nonstatic targets that also happen to be intelligent beings.

[Zoom_VI]

This thread is why PvP'ers and PvE'ers have never gotten along, because the disconnect between PvE way of viewing balance and the PvP way of viewing balance. Specifically because the PvE way of viewing balance isn't compatible with the reality of PvP just as the PvP measure of class balance doesn't apply to a raid setting.

 

I spent two years in a raid guild, I'm well aware of how you Zoltan are drawing your conlusions, and you have to realize the reasoning of PvE simply is not applicable when referring to PvP. It is more than possible to give DPS specs a DPS boost in PvP without even touching their PvE parse numbers, all it takes is shifting the damage around.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[cs_zoltan]

"Is good for x" != "is only good for x."

Stop being dense.

You gotta be kidding me. I asked you like 3 times already what sustained specs in your opinion are supposed to do and your only answer was tank tunnel. And now you say this ? Oh my god. You are so clueless I can't even bother to read anything else you ever have to say or I might lose IQ after every word.

[Aetideus]

Key word: current state.

Dps does matter. Look at Concealment for example. It used to suck in PvP then it got like a 12% dps buff and suddenly it wrecked ***.

You can have all the mobility, utility, control in the world if you hit like a wet noodle you won't kill anyone.

 

Just that: Concealment 3.0 is much better in PvP due to the survivability buffs (kolto). Its dps was always enough, but died like a fly. Pyro with kolto would be awesome compared to Pyro with 6k parse.

If dps and burst was the optimum in pvp, everybody would run pre-3.0 Lightning sorc. Yet, it was a seldom appearance and prolly in pred. With survivability buffs, burst and mechanics it is the 3rd top class in 3.0.

 

The current parse of Pyro it is good enough and will be equal or better to dev specs in 3.2 as reported.

But even that is not enough in PvP without tactics specific to the spec. I ve posted some.

For Ranked more burst is required.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Aetideus

[Zoom_VI]

This entire argument started because you determined that because players have passive DR to I/E which in turn causes I/E heavy specs to do less DPS relatively to what they do in PvE versus their K/E counterparts, and that this is the cause of Pyrotech being underpowered. Since this means Pyrotech's parses when factoring PvP DR drop while AP's parses become better.

 

My entire point that I have been unsuccessfully trying to get into your head is that parses can't be used like that for PvP. Parse numbers are great for measure balance in PvE, but you cannot apply PvE standards to PvP because it doesn't work like that.

 

See this comment:

Oh and since players have higher K/E DR than I/E DR then it takes less DPS to kill in the same time with I/E then it does with K/E

TTK not DPS is the end all be all of PvP. A spec could do less DPS and still require less time to kill due to the fact that the amount of damage required to kill a target varies widly depending on circumstance.

 

To counter the Math numbers you have been using. It's worth noting that by parse standards when factoring the differences in DR from PvE to PvP, Hatred ends up looking weaker than current Tactics in DPS. Yet in practice Hatred is the best pressure spec in the game, and Tactics is straight up unable to even be used as a pressure spec.

 

Also at the beginning you said

And since only the PvE community parses regularly and most of the balance decisions are made (or demanded) with that data in mind (since PvPers don't have data) it is a real problem.

There is a very good reason the PvP community doesn't parse.

(as and aside I admit I missed this comment originally, and would like to point out that bioware had repeatedly stated they don't use parse leaderboards in their balance decisions as they consider leaderboard parse DPS numbers to be non-representative of how the classes perform in proto-typical content.)

 

You gotta be kidding me. I asked you like 3 times already what sustained specs in your opinion are supposed to do and your only answer was tank tunnel.

 

No, I only answered tank tunnel once, although I should have mentioned that tank tunnel is different than cleaving guard, might have cleared up some confusion

Ultimately you have been misunderstanding my responses anyways, see here:

 

Old AP never was able to beat old Pyro on a single target, but if old AP could get two targets in a nice cleave the damage output spiked tremendously which in turn meant it put the enemy healer farther behind. Two old AP PT's cleaving could put out enough multitarget damage to guarantee the enemy healers are not going to catch back up assuming the double cleave didn't outright kill someone. (like the tank for instances, thanks to the lovely vulnerability called Guard)

The only mention of tanks or guard is in the offhanded commentary in the parenthesis at the end. The entire rest of the section is talking old AP alone and how cleaving puts the healers behind.

 

You responded with:

So you say every I/E damage spec (mostly sustained specs) should have the same role: Overwhelming guard?

At no point in that entire post did I make a single comment about I/E specs in general.

 

But to take another stab at answering your question I/E can and has been used for many things, however since most I/E specs are usually dotspecs, they typically get used as a pressure spec (and no "pressure" is NOT the same as tank tunnel) as such is the nature of dotspecs in PvP (with 1.0 - 2.10 Pyro being the only exception)

 

Old AP had the distinction of being the only spec in the game that dealt large amounts of I/E and wasn't a dot spec. Which was a major selling point of the spec, the other selling point being it's cleave. Both of those are what made old AP viable, and neither of them have to do with parse numbers.

 

Just that: Concealment 3.0 is much better in PvP due to the survivability buffs (kolto). Its dps was always enough, but died like a fly. Pyro with kolto would be awesome compared to Pyro with 6k parse.

If dps and burst was the optimum in pvp, everybody would run pre-3.0 Lightning sorc. Yet, it was a seldom appearance and prolly in pred. With survivability buffs, burst and mechanics it is the 3rd top class in 3.0.

 

The current parse of Pyro it is good enough and will be equal or better to dev specs in 3.2 as reported.

But even that is not enough in PvP without tactics specific to the spec. I ve posted some.

For Ranked more burst is required.

The Kolto honestly wasn't that big of a defensive buff. The big defensives for Concealment is the resistance on roll and Evasive Imperative

Edited April 16, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[Aetideus]

The Kolto honestly wasn't that big of a defensive buff. The big defensives for Concealment is the resistance on roll and Evasive Imperative

 

Lethality has insane heals also.Targeting Op after roll/ev is far more challenging.

[LtBombshell]

Sooooooo........ fascinating discussion and all, but does anyone have anything to say about my original post? For the record:

 

Because I see 2 different ways of playing:

-Ruffian/Lethality style: what I mean by this is I could go around double dotting everyone with Scorch and Incendiary Missle. Then, I "combo off" on an unsuspecting target with Flaming Fist -> Rail Shot -> Flame Bust -> Immolate -> -Flame Burst -> Flame Thrower.

-Single target style: pick a target and use the PvE rotation suggested in the Dulfy guide on the target.

 

Which one generates the highest DPS in a PvP environment?

[Arehonn]

Sooooooo........ fascinating discussion and all, but does anyone have anything to say about my original post? For the record:

 

Because I see 2 different ways of playing:

-Ruffian/Lethality style: what I mean by this is I could go around double dotting everyone with Scorch and Incendiary Missle. Then, I "combo off" on an unsuspecting target with Flaming Fist -> Rail Shot -> Flame Bust -> Immolate -> -Flame Burst -> Flame Thrower.

-Single target style: pick a target and use the PvE rotation suggested in the Dulfy guide on the target.

 

Which one generates the highest DPS in a PvP environment?

 

Remember, variables in PvP will always change depending on the situation at hand. Double dotting is a good start to keep your DPS up as long as you're watching your resources and keeping in mind that you'll want to do your single target burst on priority targets ( who should have your double dots already on ) when the chance presents itself.

 

Always be on the lookout for opportunities to push out your AOE. Throw your sticky grenade before Pulse Cannon ( which is like adding another tic to the 4 that comes with Pulse Cannon ) and then, if you're in a good position health wise, follow it up with a Mortar Volley. Explosive Surge on groups as much as possible.

 

It's quite easy to top DPS as a Plasmatech/Pyro in regs with the right gear and the right playstyle, even beating out the burst specs. In ranked, it's another story.

[Aetideus]

Remember, variables in PvP will always change depending on the situation at hand. Double dotting is a good start to keep your DPS up as long as you're watching your resources and keeping in mind that you'll want to do your single target burst on priority targets ( who should have your double dots already on ) when the chance presents itself.

 

Always be on the lookout for opportunities to push out your AOE. Throw your sticky grenade before Pulse Cannon ( which is like adding another tic to the 4 that comes with Pulse Cannon ) and then, if you're in a good position health wise, follow it up with a Mortar Volley. Explosive Surge on groups as much as possible.

 

It's quite easy to top DPS as a Plasmatech/Pyro in regs with the right gear and the right playstyle, even beating out the burst specs. In ranked, it's another story.

 

The target is to stack as many ticks as possible.

[Arehonn]

3.2 changes on live: The DPS increase is noticeable, as well as resource management being a little more forgiving; I like the changes.

 

I still would like to see a couple of QOL upgrades to help the spec out a little bit more. A moving pulse cannon would be at the very top of my list ( for this spec only ). Adding another second or two to the Shockstrike root would be awesome.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Arehonn

[Wishiwasanoob]

Sooooooo........ fascinating discussion and all, but does anyone have anything to say about my original post? For the record:

 

Because I see 2 different ways of playing:

-Ruffian/Lethality style: what I mean by this is I could go around double dotting everyone with Scorch and Incendiary Missle. Then, I "combo off" on an unsuspecting target with Flaming Fist -> Rail Shot -> Flame Bust -> Immolate -> -Flame Burst -> Flame Thrower.

-Single target style: pick a target and use the PvE rotation suggested in the Dulfy guide on the target.

 

Which one generates the highest DPS in a PvP environment?

 

Switched to the spec last night, my 2 cents on play style is you want to play pure AoE. I got the feel that it played a lot like the old officer class I used to play in SWG as a kid.

 

Wish I had the patience to quote the best parts of some of the very good earlier posts but I will say that, in PvP, as a healer the last thing you want to see is all the health bars in your ops window going down at once which is the ability Plasma has now. If you get your IR on someone with a good ES then wack everyone with PC you're talking about doing potentially +17k damage to an entire group. Tactics is still the more dominant PvP class bc of the large burst that just catches people off guard but I think this will be a viable spec again.

With the Adrenaline re-working too, I was able to blow my DcD's and tank upwards of 5 people at once for 3-4 GCD's

 

SO...OP.....what you want to do is find the tank, keep him DoT'd, and keep PC on CD using it to spread IR to everyone. Spreading your single target DoT's one at a time is not only inefficient but it'll drain your energy pool. But you also don't want to do the single target thing. You aren't going to global anyone with this class. It's just a solid supplemental DpS class. Don't get me wrong, you'll be a scoreboard hero with all the AoE, but sustained DpS doesn't kill good players.

[Wishiwasanoob]

Adding another second or two to the Shockstrike root would be awesome.

 

Idk if it needs to be longer but think it would be cool if it was like Scoundrel shank shot and the target was unable to turn

Edited April 29, 2015 by Wishiwasanoob

[BigDumbViking]

While these guys fight about which one does better single target damage, , I would tell you that PVP isn't a single target game. I would lean heavily toward the pre-dot rotation, then burst/dulfy rotation on the healer. What you are going to find is that your overall output will be higher in WZ's because of the stuns and roots.

 

And for Zoltan... You can't model PVP dps, because it hinges far too heavily on available time for DPS. With the stun and roots, this number can vary too much for any model to accurately reflect the benefits of one spec over another.

 

From my experience, I can put up bigger overall/dps numbers running Plasma in most WZ's. And the worse the team is around me, the bigger that gap becomes. Thus the beauty of Dot Specs.

[Aetideus]

While these guys fight about which one does better single target damage, , I would tell you that PVP isn't a single target game. I would lean heavily toward the pre-dot rotation, then burst/dulfy rotation on the healer. What you are going to find is that your overall output will be higher in WZ's because of the stuns and roots.

 

And for Zoltan... You can't model PVP dps, because it hinges far too heavily on available time for DPS. With the stun and roots, this number can vary too much for any model to accurately reflect the benefits of one spec over another.

 

From my experience, I can put up bigger overall/dps numbers running Plasma in most WZ's. And the worse the team is around me, the bigger that gap becomes. Thus the beauty of Dot Specs.

 

Some people expect Pyro to be pre 3.0 AP but the play style has changed. Superheated flame thrower full application is optional but the dots are spread on the first tick, which is on the initial hit.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Aetideus

[cs_zoltan]

And for Zoltan... You can't model PVP dps, because it hinges far too heavily on available time for DPS. With the stun and roots, this number can vary too much for any model to accurately reflect the benefits of one spec over another.

 

From my experience, I can put up bigger overall/dps numbers running Plasma in most WZ's. And the worse the team is around me, the bigger that gap becomes. Thus the beauty of Dot Specs.

 

Of course you can. That's just what people who don't know math say when they face actual proof.

[Zoom_VI]

Of course you can. That's just what people who don't know math say when they face actual proof.

 

There is nothing wrong with Math in PvP application. There is something wrong when said math is derived from PvE parses. (i.e. a completely different environment with completely different variables)

 

 

If I ever get around to finishing the killing rate parser (which designed to run in PvP not PvE), we might have a viable quanitative measurement for the effectiveness of a DPS class in PvP. Until then, NO.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Zoom_VI

[TACeMossie]

There is nothing wrong with Math in PvP application. There is something wrong when said math is derived from PvE parses. (i.e. a completely different environment with completely different variables)

 

 

If I ever get around to finishing the killing rate parser (which designed to run in PvP not PvE), we might have a viable quanitative measurement for the effectiveness of a DPS class in PvP. Until then, NO.

 

This. All my calculations i've done are completely useless in PvP because rotations change in PvP. For example, in PvP, sticky grenade is a great ability for Tactics cause it can be used to compress even more damage into a short period of time, where in PvE its sole use is if you get stranded over 15m away, or if a target is about to lose an invincibility buff. Granted, I do have uses on it for 3/5 Ravagers and 3/5 ToS, but even there, the uses are incredibly limited

[cs_zoltan]

This. All my calculations i've done are completely useless in PvP because rotations change in PvP. For example, in PvP, sticky grenade is a great ability for Tactics cause it can be used to compress even more damage into a short period of time, where in PvE its sole use is if you get stranded over 15m away, or if a target is about to lose an invincibility buff. Granted, I do have uses on it for 3/5 Ravagers and 3/5 ToS, but even there, the uses are incredibly limited

 

You are missing the point. We know that:

• AP has miles better burst than Pyro, it's obvious, everyone knows that.
  
• From PvE parses by changing K/E and I/E damage reductions we also know that AP can get better sustained than Pyro in PvP.
  
• It's also self evident that AP has lower setup than Pyro, 1gcd vs 2gcd. In fact AP outparses Pyro in sustained (pre-3.2, didn't do the math since) that it can even drop RB and still have better sustained and burst, effecitvely making setup 0 gcd vs 2 gcd.
  

 

Saying PvE parse has 0 connection to PvP is very close minded.

[Zoom_VI]

[*]From PvE parses by changing K/E and I/E damage reductions we also know that AP can get better sustained than Pyro in PvP.

 

Let me emphasize where you went wrong.

 

[*]From PvE parses by changing K/E and I/E damage reductions we also know that AP can get better sustained than Pyro in PvP.

 

PvE parses are measured in a environment that is vastly different from the PvP environment. The rotations used in a PvE environment are nothing like those used in PvP.

 

 

 

[*]It's also self evident that AP has lower setup than Pyro, 1gcd vs 2gcd. In fact AP outparses Pyro in sustained (pre-3.2, didn't do the math since) that it can even drop RB and still have better sustained and burst, effecitvely making setup 0 gcd vs 2 gcd.

This statement happens to be good evidence for my previous point. In PvP Tactic's setup is considered 2 gcd minimum, simply due to the nature of assault plastic.

[cs_zoltan]

Let me emphasize where you went wrong.

PvE parses are measured in a environment that is vastly different from the PvP environment.

 

I can count on 1 hand how many PvE bosses are like dummy parses yet it's a valid metric for it. You just have to account for stuff like mobility, AoE capability, target switching etc.

Same can be done for PvP once you change the damage reduction numbers on PvE parses.

 

The rotations used in a PvE environment are nothing like those used in PvP.

Obvious hyperbole is obvious.

 

 

Actually I wouldn't even call that a hyperbole. Hyperbole is a ridiculous exaggeration of truth. But what you said is utterly false.

[TACeMossie]

I can count on 1 hand how many PvE bosses are like dummy parses yet it's a valid metric for it. You just have to account for stuff like mobility, AoE capability, target switching etc.

 

Looking at Tactics/AP:

 

That droid from EV

Gharj

Infernal Council

Bonethrasher

Foreman Crusher

Karagga the Unyielding

Toth and Zorn

Writhing Horror

Kephess the Undying

Dash'roode

Thrasher (On thrasher duty)

Cartel Warlords

Nefra

Grob'thok

Tyrans (SM/HM)

Sparky

Bulo

Torque (boss tunnel duty)

Malaphar the Savage

Sword Squadron (Non-bomb carrier)

 

Can all have the dummy rotation translated completely across into them. Granted you have to be fancy at some points, but the point stands - Unless its not on this list, or its not done properly, there are 20 fights right now that act like a dummy for Tactics/AP

 

So i'd say you must have a pretty damn mutated hand

[cs_zoltan]

So i'd say you must have a pretty damn mutated hand

 

Or you know, maybe your reading comprehension is not up to the task?

The majority of those bosses are either not stationary, have adds or target swapping etc.