Concern about nerfs to dps for PVE content

[mynameisbugged]

According to this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8127209&postcount=230 and the statement:

 

We do want to avoid just buffing other classes up, and instead need to focus on bringing down the over-performing classes. If we concentrated on buffing all other classes to the status of over-performing classes, we would create a power bloat that would make PvE decisively too easy and PvP time-to-kill too short.

 

it seems the trend at least currently, and further ahead will be to nerf dps. I'm a little concerned about this. I understand there is a problem in PVP(and possibly PVE) for class diversity. But nerfing the sorc/pt/sin dps without scaling down the difficulty of the current content or buffing other classes effectively makes them harder. Currently the HM content is arguably harder this tier, relatively speaking, and nerfing dps will only mean ruling out more guilds to clear the harder content. One of my guild just ran torque hm yesterday, and we defeated torque barely with perhaps 5s of tanking enrage when previously we usually had about 15s to enrage. Guild is 7/10 HM and i would say on my server, there aren't that many which have got to this point already(and even fewer players as alot of guilds have alts from people who have cleared stuff). I obviously acknowledge there are stronger guilds where these nerfs would not have an effect on, but those are even fewer(although the majority of the lurkers here are probably from those stronger guilds).

 

For the moment, i think sage and commando dps nerfs in 3.1.2 were ok(cos I and my guild can still clear content), but if the trend continues, which seems likely from the above post after recent nerfs, i can forsee many more ppl crying about HM content. Shadow DPS for example, in PVE is already fairly underrepresented in HM because of their squishiness and it would be pretty painful for those who main it to be nerfed even more. I, for one, am not a dps - i'm a tank and recently received buffs, but i'm concerned for guild dps having to deal with a monthly increase in difficulty in HM as they keep getting nerfed.

[NikSunrider]

According to this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8127209&postcount=230 and the statement:

 

We do want to avoid just buffing other classes up, and instead need to focus on bringing down the over-performing classes. If we concentrated on buffing all other classes to the status of over-performing classes, we would create a power bloat that would make PvE decisively too easy and PvP time-to-kill too short.

 

it seems the trend at least currently, and further ahead will be to nerf dps. I'm a little concerned about this. I understand there is a problem in PVP(and possibly PVE) for class diversity. But nerfing the sorc/pt/sin dps without scaling down the difficulty of the current content or buffing other classes effectively makes them harder. Currently the HM content is arguably harder this tier, relatively speaking, and nerfing dps will only mean ruling out more guilds to clear the harder content. One of my guild just ran torque hm yesterday, and we defeated torque barely with perhaps 5s of tanking enrage when previously we usually had about 15s to enrage. Guild is 7/10 HM and i would say on my server, there aren't that many which have got to this point already(and even fewer players as alot of guilds have alts from people who have cleared stuff). I obviously acknowledge there are stronger guilds where these nerfs would not have an effect on, but those are even fewer(although the majority of the lurkers here are probably from those stronger guilds).

 

For the moment, i think sage and commando dps nerfs in 3.1.2 were ok(cos I and my guild can still clear content), but if the trend continues, which seems likely from the above post after recent nerfs, i can forsee many more ppl crying about HM content. Shadow DPS for example, in PVE is already fairly underrepresented in HM because of their squishiness and it would be pretty painful for those who main it to be nerfed even more. I, for one, am not a dps - i'm a tank and recently received buffs, but i'm concerned for guild dps having to deal with a monthly increase in difficulty in HM as they keep getting nerfed.

 

Furiously agree.

[Halinalle]

Constantly buffing other classes to level of best class is known as power creep and it's in most cases bad for MMO.

 

It's exactly why for example Blizzard had to do "stat squish" in WoW.

 

Power creep explained in funny way:

Edited April 9, 2015 by Halinalle

[Ruskaeth]

Constantly buffing other classes to level of best class is known as power creep and it's in most cases bad for MMO.

 

It's exactly why for example Blizzard had to do "stat squish" in WoW.

 

Power creep explained in funny way:

 

By the Perkele you are right. However, the reach of PVE content on highest tiers should be tuned according to clear rates of guilds attempting those when the classes are brought down and DPS checks become harder. That is something I do not see BW doing so the worry is real. Koskenkorva.

[Halinalle]

By the Perkele you are right. However, the reach of PVE content on highest tiers should be tuned according to clear rates of guilds attempting those when the classes are brought down and DPS checks become harder. That is something I do not see BW doing so the worry is real. Koskenkorva.

 

The fact that you need Bounty Hunters for HM Revan has been shot down already.

 

Also there's Marauder in that video. Class that has, according to community, no business in level 60 content.

[Ruskaeth]

The fact that you need Bounty Hunters for HM Revan has been shot down already. Also there's Marauder in that video. Class that has, according to community, no business in level 60 content.

 

How very interesting that you bring that up because I was not referring to that at all. I underlined what you might have missed. Our Marauders have done great DPS in HM fights so far. This thread was not about situation now, but what they plan to do in future and assumption at how. There is no reason to even go to specifics about what the DPS of Marauder was compared to other classes on core phase, is there?

 

By the Perkele you are right. However, the reach of PVE content on highest tiers should be tuned according to clear rates of guilds attempting those when the classes are brought down and DPS checks become harder. That is something I do not see BW doing so the worry is real. Koskenkorva.

It's still just a HM, come NiM the clear rates will diminish and no doubt, the first kills for all groups will consist of mostly FOTM again. That's normal, not arguing that, but the future of tuning down DPS of already non-FOTM classes in PVE for sake of PvP is not helping when the FOTM classes (ability to carry) is also diminished. Yes?

Edited April 9, 2015 by Ruskaeth

[mastirkal]

The fact that you need Bounty Hunters for HM Revan has been shot down already.

 

Also there's Marauder in that video. Class that has, according to community, no business in level 60 content.

 

That's a terrible comparison because of how unoptimized using non-bounty hunters is along with the fact that hates you group A already had gear on those toons that couldn't otherwise have been gotten besides from the boss they just defeated. The reason they were able to get that kill was because they had already killed it numerous times as a mostly bounty hunter group just like any of the other 14 guilds that have cleared it. Along with the fact that they are all very strong players to begin with, they still barely beat enrage by less than 10 seconds. I doubt a lesser group could beat the enrage, let alone kill the core.

 

The last phase of revan is stupid. It was poorly designed and either expects a beyond reasonable dps check or expects you to bring in bounty hunters to lessen said soft enrage from the stacks of reducing HP before that 80 stack heave one shots you.

Edited April 9, 2015 by mastirkal

[SupaHsuB]

Why play a game if it isnt a challenge? Nerfs happen all the time in other MMO's too. Players should rise up to the challenge imo.

 

Anyways gear progression itself indirectly nerfs the content, dps check/heal check wise.

 

Fight nerfs have alreafy been datamined from pts, so i guess there's light at the end of the tunnel.

Edited April 9, 2015 by SupaHsuB

[Ruskaeth]

Nerfs happen all the time in other MMO's too. Players should rise up to the challenge imo.

Only challenge is to actually have the time to raid.

[SupaHsuB]

Only challenge is to actually have the time to raid.

 

Roster boss, hardest boss in game.

Edited April 9, 2015 by SupaHsuB

[Ruskaeth]

Yep.

[JDotter]

The fact that you need Bounty Hunters for HM Revan has been shot down already.

 

Also there's Marauder in that video. Class that has, according to community, no business in level 60 content.

 

edit don't care enough que.

Edited April 9, 2015 by JDotter

[Halinalle]

I don't know what's up with "melee is useless in 60HMs". I've done Korriban twice on my Marauder after 3.1.2 and I haven't died even once. Yes, I know I have to get better at dodging those missiles.

[dlcman]

This patch has proven...sages cry the best.

[Snean]

Forget about all non bh/tr class for pve now.

Delete it.

[Snean]

The fact that you need Bounty Hunters for HM Revan has been shot down already.

Also there's Marauder in that video. Class that has, according to community, no business in level 60 content.

Sure ... ppl in full 198 geal who killed revan many times before (on bh classes) can kill it on non-bh/tr class.

Don't forget plz that some class on this video got HUGE nerf in 3.1.2.

[Xenphon]

The fact that you need Bounty Hunters for HM Revan has been shot down already.

 

Also there's Marauder in that video. Class that has, according to community, no business in level 60 content.

 

My own answer to this:

 

The kill was very impressive, but it was done with players that have Revan HM on farm. They know the ins and outs of the fight and the alts were probably optimised 198 or very close, including some 198 MHs. I may be mistaken, but I would not be suprised if my assumptions are correct regarding the gear. That helps tremendously during every phase of the fight, especially third floor. There is a reason the first kills were with nothing but BHs (perhaps one other class) and it has remained thus for most first kills.

 

another answer:

 

Their kill was impressive, indeed. To be clear, with 0 MHs in that group, that isn't a kill. I don't mean that speculatively. I mean it literally. That kill was on the razor's edge of a wipe. It was within 3 GCDs of a hard enrage, it was already past the one shot heave threshold (you can get past that range into the 90+ stack range w/ a sorc healer, and they were at that point). With no mainhands and less gear (aka a regular progression setting pre farm mode) that isn't a kill. This is not to take away from their kill by any means. Them having the boss on farm and consistently killing the boss weekly enabled them to do this. It's merely stating the obvious. People that see that kill and go YEP LOOK AT THAT PROOF IN THE PUDDING BOYS, it lacks a lot of context.

 

The video proves it is doable when you have solid experience with every aspect of the fight AND you have farmed gear from former kills to fully optimise your alts. There's a reason that kill came in April and not before.

 

As for OP's concerns; BW have already been informed about these issues. It does not seem they plan to listen until they see for themselves the problems it will cause. It is unfortunate, but I have the impression that BW feel they have to implement their own ideas and see for themselves over a span of several months whether it was smart or not. Any and all feedback from the players will be ignored until that point.

 

Roster boss, hardest boss in game.

 

So very, very true.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Xenphon

[Ruskaeth]

I don't know what's up with "melee is useless in 60HMs". I've done Korriban twice on my Marauder after 3.1.2 and I haven't died even once. Yes, I know I have to get better at dodging those missiles.

HM fps are clearly the best source to gather data to work out the class balance.

 

Yo Devs, +1 this ^^^^^^^^^^^

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Roster boss, hardest boss in game.

 

dunno, i think the mom aggro & timezone difference are worse

[mynameisbugged]

Constantly buffing other classes to level of best class is known as power creep and it's in most cases bad for MMO.

 

It's exactly why for example Blizzard had to do "stat squish" in WoW.

 

Power creep explained in funny way:

 

interesting vid. I'm not advocating for classes to get stronger overall, but for BW to just leave the PVE content as it is. While some challenge is great, too much will cause deterrence(think when your guild has to put steep requirements to recruit a strong dps to down content, which the pool will be less as content gets harder).

 

As said, i think the nerfs in 3.1.2 were ok and i think we're in a good position right now in terms of difficulty. More nerfs as a side effect of pvp, is a cause for concern.

Edited April 9, 2015 by mynameisbugged

[Athena-Nike]

Honestly the PvE content is fine, its the numerous raid bugs that they still haven't or can't seem to fix thats the issue. I don't mind a hard fight or a tight dps check so long as the fight works correctly. If you are only going to nerf to balance, then FIX THE DAMN BUGS so we can actually fight the content we are supposed to be fighting and not additional random insta wipe bugs. My group can take HM Underlurker in theory, we get him down to around 30k hp consistently and cleared him a couple times, but thats having to deal with people being insta killed by broken mechanics or healing/tanking/dpsing through situations that should never have happened. To have these raids out for so long and still not be able to have them work correctly reliably is absurd.

 

So if they can't figure out how to get their own fights to work as intended, then yes they should nerf PvE content slightly to help compensate for the random, unintended variances they clearly cannot control.

[Halinalle]

Honestly the PvE content is fine

 

Blood Hunt HM

51k Sniper: "there's no way we can do this with one undergeared dps"

Then they kick me.

[Death_By_Smiley]

So just to clarify, people in this topic are okay that mid-tier (HM) content has only been cleared by previous top-tier (NM) guilds? Do you believe that is a healthy means of having the game, where previous HM tier guilds are typically at best 8/10 right now? Because SM is too easy for them, but 4 months in those guilds are not clearing content they are typically geared towards clearing. What is their content supposed to be? Just the first half of the two current HM raids?

 

I fully understand that guilds like Zorz, Drop it like it's Hoth, Hates you, DNT, etc. need content. But can't that be nightmare? My guild was 4/5 in previous Nightmare tiers with the Nightmare buff. We did not clear Brontes and Dread Council with the power buff or before 3.0. So yeah, we're not top tier.

 

But should that be the gold standard by which HM viability is decided? We're 8/10 right now, and might have been 9/10 but we had a lot of absences and shuffling around. It happens. But we're by no means a bad raid group. We're not top tier progression, sure. But we're not bad either. But should a HARD mode raid be designed such that guilds that are generally within the same tier as us are all 8/10, with a small few 9/10, a third of a year after launch?

 

Maybe you guys think that's fine. But very clearly most people in the game disagree with you, as I've seen several raid teams on Shadowlands self-destruct over frustration with the content. It's been unhealthy for most the guilds in the game. Now, I'm seeing top-tier raid groups losing players because Nightmare isn't out yet or announced. So we have a huge disparity caused by this Hard Mode tier, where HM still isn't enough for top tier guilds, and it's too much for mid-tier raiding guilds.

 

In my view, this clearly shows that the current HM tier is too much. Now, I'm not saying it's wildly too much. I think just a few DPS checks should be tuned down just a bit. I'm not even really against the nerfs. But it's a legitimate concern that several mid-tier raiding guilds when the nerfs are not accompanied by proportional HP level changes. If HM is meant to be cleared by HM-tier raiding guilds, then this operation cycle has been overtuned. If you want HM to be setup such that only 15 guilds can clear it in a third of a year, then defend that argument. But standing on a pedestal and shouting "git gud" at us "filthy casuals" who are only seeing the operations harder doesn't prove your elite status. It just proves your elitism.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Death_By_Smiley

[ChroniKill]

So just to clarify, people in this topic are okay that mid-tier (HM) content has only been cleared by previous top-tier (NM) guilds? Do you believe that is a healthy means of having the game, where previous HM tier guilds are typically at best 8/10 right now? Because SM is too easy for them, but 4 months in those guilds are not clearing content they are typically geared towards clearing.

 

I think it depends on what is coming. If the current tier HM content is going to be the new NiM level then I can understand the difficulty, however if there is NiM coming after this then I do think that they're a bit over tuned. The current content has no middle ground, which makes me think that both SM and HM will receive a nerf if/when NiM comes along.

 

Judging by the fact that the current HM has been cleared by 15 (I think) guilds to date, and most of those using very specific groups is a bit telling.

Edited April 9, 2015 by ChroniKill

[Death_By_Smiley]

I think it depends on what is coming. If the current tier HM content is going to be the new NiM level then I can understand the difficulty, however if there is NiM coming after this then I do think that they're a bit over tuned. The current content has no middle ground, which makes me think that both SM and HM will receive a nerf if/when NiM comes along.

 

Judging by the fact that the current HM has been cleared by 15 (I think) guilds to date, and most of those using very specific groups is a bit telling.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you said. If NiM is going away, then sure, HM is fine. But I see no reason to think that's happening. Hopefully we'll hear something at the cantina next week.