Why hasn't balance/ madness been fixed

[LEEscoundral]

So balance/madness single target is still about 700 dps south of where it should be. I only play PVE and it is not a viable class to use. I am waiting for a fix..... PLease.. Why isnt this class fixed and functioning as a viable option?

Please fix it bioware.

[TACeMossie]

So balance/madness single target is still about 700 dps south of where it should be. I only play PVE and it is not a viable class to use. I am waiting for a fix..... PLease.. Why isnt this class fixed and functioning as a viable option?

Please fix it bioware.

 

Its actually 300DPS south of what it should be as of 3.1.2. 5.4k DPS in optimized 198s isn't balanced for any spec. Except watchman. Cause watchman sucks to actually use, and is melee, and has the worst ramp up time ever. And even then, I'd stop at 5.2k for them.

[LEEscoundral]

I belive most other specs are around 4.5 k plus balance at 3.7 is a long way behind par. I really dont care what they are aiming for just fix it so its up with the rest.

[TACeMossie]

I belive most other specs are around 4.5 k plus balance at 3.7 is a long way behind par. I really dont care what they are aiming for just fix it so its up with the rest.

 

As of this patch, most specs are 4.8-5.1k dps in optimized 198s, balance is 4.7k in optimized 198s. Its no where near as terrible as you make it out to be

[AsmodeusML]

As of this patch, most specs are 4.8-5.1k dps in optimized 198s, balance is 4.7k in optimized 198s. Its no where near as terrible as you make it out to be

I would definetly like to see a 4.7k on Balance... Haven't seen a single parse. Considering that with full 198 + 192 MH i almost never saw parses above 4.450 i seriously doubt 4.7k is achievable. But even if it is, 4.8-5.1 is average dps for all other specs while 4.7 for Balance is absolute maximum

Edited April 8, 2015 by AsmodeusML

[DarthKurt]

Yes, why is balance so far behind ? I'm only in partial 198's but I'm only parsing 3100-3300. Ri-********n-diculous.

[TACeMossie]

I would definetly like to see a 4.7k on Balance... Haven't seen a single parse. Considering that with full 198 + 192 MH i almost never saw parses above 4.450 i seriously doubt 4.7k is achievable. But even if it is, 4.8-5.1 is average dps for all other specs while 4.7 for Balance is absolute maximum

 

The actual 4.7 hasn't happened. However, Milas has a video of pre-3.1.2 Madness done with full, optimized 198s with the exception of 4 armorings being 186s, and that parse was 4.64k DPS. By adding 1 second to the duration of Demolish, said parse would be 4.7k.

 

And Milas stated that the parse wasn't even that lucky (he did 20, all of them at that level, though he did run out of force 7 times...)

 

Anyway, have a video showing the parse:

Edited April 8, 2015 by TACeMossie

[AsmodeusML]

The actual 4.7 hasn't happened. However, Milas has a video of pre-3.1.2 Madness done with full, optimized 198s with the exception of 4 armorings being 186s, and that parse was 4.64k DPS. By adding 1 second to the duration of Demolish, said parse would be 4.7k.

 

And Milas stated that the parse wasn't even that lucky (he did 20, all of them at that level, though he did run out of force 7 times...)

 

Anyway, have a video showing the parse:

 

True, but that is with old setbonus and they are balancing stuff for new ones so Balance is supposed to parse way higher that it currently does since all it can reach with old one is above 4.7k being lucky. And even then it still sucks compared to other sustained specs since 4.7k is baseline for those classes (or even lower, i am not sure)

Edited April 8, 2015 by AsmodeusML

[ChroniKill]

Not quite 4.7, but close:

 

http://swtor-parser.elasticbeanstalk.com/parser/view/19804/2

 

I imagine there will need to be a few more buffs made, and hopefully something done about how clunky and weird the rotation is (they said clipping TKT wasn't intended, hence the 4 stacks needed, but in order to maximise dps you have to clip it, and regularly, in favour of Vanquish).

[D_a_r_t_hA_l_e_x]

Not quite 4.7, but close:

 

http://swtor-parser.elasticbeanstalk.com/parser/view/19804/2

 

I imagine there will need to be a few more buffs made, and hopefully something done about how clunky and weird the rotation is (they said clipping TKT wasn't intended, hence the 4 stacks needed, but in order to maximise dps you have to clip it, and regularly, in favour of Vanquish).

 

I did this without a 198 Mainhand. Had some other parses in a range between 4500 und 4600.

[ChroniKill]

I did this without a 198 Mainhand. Had some other parses in a range between 4500 und 4600.

 

Interesting to hear - crit rate looks fairly consistent across the other parses in that log, so it doesn't look to have as much variance as TK (albeit using a very small sample).

 

Given that IO/Assault is parsing just over 5,100dps at the very top at the moment, I figure this is probably what Madness/Balance should be hitting, so there's still a bit of work to be done. I'd guess that 4.8k would be manageable in 198 - what do you think? I think if Bioware were to add perhaps 400dps to single target and sort out the rotation and the weirdness (i.e. presence of mind use on disturbance isn't much of a dps gain, if at all, over TKT spam) then the spec would be pretty good.

[AsmodeusML]

I agree, unfortunately Balance cannot be fixed by buffs only. Rotation requires some adjustements as well

[D_a_r_t_hA_l_e_x]

4,8K? hm, perhaps in a very lucky try and full 198

 

Using disturbance seems to be a DPS loss. So we need some rotation adjustments and some force regenartion adjustments. Spamming TKT should be a DPS loss, but force neutral.

[ChroniKill]

4,8K? hm, perhaps in a very lucky try and full 198

 

Using disturbance seems to be a DPS loss. So we need some rotation adjustments and some force regenartion adjustments. Spamming TKT should be a DPS loss, but force neutral.

 

I believe POM is bugged and is only providing a 20% buff. If it were 25% I think it would be a very slight DPS increase, but barely.

 

For TKT, I thought this was intended to be a spammable force positive attack, at least, that was my interpretation. Whilst other ranged classes have something to do if out of force (basic attack), the sage is constantly force negative and will eventually run out of force, unless they use consumption. My take on cooldowns/restorative abilities is that you should be able to maintain a rotation for as long as is required during a boss fight, but the restorative should be used in high energy/force usage burn phases. I posted a summary of some previous changes I mentioned during the 3.1.2 PTS, but I think these would sort out the rotation and potentially be a DPS increase once the numbers were worked properly

 

 

I made quite an extensive post in the 3.1.2 PTS about my suggestions to fix Balance. One of the key things for me is to reduce the self heals. I don't PvP, but I gather they are a source of frustration. In PvE, they aren't really all that relevant, as in the vast majority of the fights, the damage being done is in bursts, not consistent (with Underlurker being the obvious exception, and I'll caveat by saying I've not attempted M&B, Cora or Revan).

 

The first change would be to reduce the self heals on Serenity and to up both the cooldown and the damage. This would mean that the ability would fit in much more cleanly with the FIB/Vanquish cooldowns and start to build a rotation. Now, this could be a problem with burst, but given that my commando (in significantly lower gear) can easily hit 11k crits on Mag Bolt, I don't think it would be too much concern.

 

The second change would be changing the 33% channel time reduction on TKT to be a 50% channel time reduction after Serenity and removing the damage nerf. This should reduce the dps from TKT, except when a proc is used, and would make it more desirable to use Presence of Mind. It would also help to make the rotation more stable, as it wouldn't be relying on a 2s channel in a game built on 1.5s intervals.

 

The third change would be a significant buff to POM. As Pelara said, the buff is not working as intended. This would need to be increased to 40% buff to compensate for the damage lost from TKT and to boost the spec.

 

A fourth possible change and particularly one which might make the spec a bit more interesting to gear, could be to give a surge bonus to single target abilities (serenity, disturbance and TKT), just to give a few options.

 

Overall, those changes would, I hope, help to buff the dps output of balance to a more reasonable level and to make it competitive with other sustained specs. Force management is a different matter, and I'd suggest probably increasing the force gained from TKT channels, reducing the force cost of non spammable abilities (FIB, Serenity) and increasing the force absorbed from consuming suppression stacks. Whilst this might make AOE force management relatively easy, I don't think it would be too unreasonable.

 

 

[cs_zoltan]

Rotation requires some adjustements as well

 

Agreed. The biggest offender is Lightning Barrage. Who thought that giving Madness a 2.25sec channel in a game built around 1.5sec gcds is a good idea? It's so disgusting.

[cs_zoltan]

The first change would be to reduce the self heals on Serenity and to up both the cooldown and the damage. This would mean that the ability would fit in much more cleanly with the FIB/Vanquish cooldowns and start to build a rotation. Now, this could be a problem with burst, but given that my commando (in significantly lower gear) can easily hit 11k crits on Mag Bolt, I don't think it would be too much concern.

 

The second change would be changing the 33% channel time reduction on TKT to be a 50% channel time reduction after Serenity and removing the damage nerf. This should reduce the dps from TKT, except when a proc is used, and would make it more desirable to use Presence of Mind. It would also help to make the rotation more stable, as it wouldn't be relying on a 2s channel in a game built on 1.5s intervals.

I was actually working on some rotation ideas. I really don't like when the DoT cooldowns are misaligned from the rotation length, thankfully most DoT spec changed that in 3.0 like IO and Pyro and Engi. So that's how I based my rotations, this in turn make them more rigid. I know some people don't like it, but I prefer that over clunkiness.

 

15sec rotation:

 

FiB -> DoT -> DoT -> TkT ->

Vq -> FS -> TkT -> Dis ->

 

Talents that need to be changed for it:

• Telekinetic Balance: Sever Force and Weaken Mind ticks 20% faster.
  
  • TkT is only used twice every 15sec so it no longer needs no cooldown. The 20% "alacrity" would in turn make the 2 DoTs 15sec instead of 18 but the same number of ticks and same damage per tick.
    

  [*]Psychic Projection: Telekinetic Throw deals x% more damage.

  • TkT return to 3sec channel so it no longer is a cluncky ****, to make up for that it deals more damage.
    

  [*]Force Serenity: cooldown 15sec.

 

 

15sec rotation with TkT proc and Project filler:

 

FiB -> DoT -> DoT -> TkT ->

Vq -> FS -> TkT -> Dis -> Proj ->

 

 

Talents that need to be changed for it:

• Telekinetic Balance: Sever Force and Weaken Mind ticks 20% faster.
  
  • TkT is only used twice every 15sec so it no longer needs no cooldown. The 20% "alacrity" would in turn make the 2 DoTs 15sec instead of 18 but the same number of ticks and same damage per tick.
    

  [*]Mental Scarring: Increases the damage dealt by periodic effects by 15% on targets below 30% of max health. In addition, Force Serenity and Project restore 15 force when used on a target affected by your Force Suppression.

  [*]Mind's Eye: Force Serenity and Project deals 25% more damage when used on a target affected by your Weaken Mind. In addition, each time a charge of your Force Suppression is consumed, you gain 2 Force.

  [*]Psychic Projection: Telekinetic Throw deals x% more damage. Additionally Vanquish makes your next Telekinetic Throw channel and tick twice as fast.

  • TkT return to 3sec channel so it no longer is a cluncky ****, to make up for that it deals more damage. The proc also frees up 1 gcd to spice up the rotation. I put the proc on Vanquish for PVP reasons.
    

  [*]Force Serenity: cooldown 15sec.

 

(PS: Project and Disturbance balance should be like this: Dis < Buffed Project < Dis + PoM)

 

 

18sec rotation with FS + PoM:

 

FiB -> DoT -> DoT -> TkT -> Vq ->

TkT -> FS -> TkT -> Dis ->

 

Talents that need to be changed for it:

• Force in Balance: cooldown 18sec.
  
• Force Serenity: cooldown 18sec.
  
• Vanquish: cooldown 18sec.
  
• Psychic Projection: Telekinetic Throw deals x% more damage.
  
  • TkT return to 3sec channel so it no longer is a cluncky ****, to make up for that it deals more damage.
    

  [*]Presence of Mind: Dealing damage with Telekinetic Throw produces a stack of Presence of Mind. At 4 stacks, Presence of Mind causes your next Disturbance, Mind Crush, Force Serenity, or Vanquish to activate instantly, consume 50% less Force, and deal x% more damage.

  [*]Force Mobility: Turbulence and Healing Trance can be activated while moving. Force Serenity increases your movement speed by x% for y seconds.

 

 

[Ryuku-sama]

You forgot one thing. Serenity needs a 13.5s CD to have an effective 15s CD considering it is a cast.

 

And just no. I like the clunky 'where I can put my DoTs'... DoTs being on a different CD than the rotation isn't bad. Lightning Barrage is exactly what we were doing pre-3.0 when clipping FL on the third tick. I wouldn't even change Leech. The 12s (13.5s min between each use) is nice. That way you can proc the 2p, use a second Leech inside the 2p then wait until the 2p finishes its CD to reuse Leech.. So two Leech every 30s. It just happens that Leech have to be delayed by two GCD every second use.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Ryuku-sama

[cs_zoltan]

You forgot one thing. Serenity needs a 13.5s CD to have an effective 15s CD considering it is a cast.

Oh right.

 

And just no. I like the clunky 'where I can put my DoTs'... DoTs being on a different CD than the rotation isn't bad.

Well that's just your opinion. Like my rotations are my opinion...

I wouldn't even change Leech. The 12s (13.5s min between each use) is nice. That way you can proc the 2p, use a second Leech inside the 2p then wait until the 2p finishes its CD to reuse Leech.. So two Leech every 30s. It just happens that Leech have to be delayed by two GCD every second use.

Yes delaying an ability because it's cooldowns is misaligned from literally everything else is so awesome.

[ceazare]

Noooo. I like the misaligned cooldowns. Granted, they went a little overboard with serenity on 12 seconds, but still much better than a static rotation. The planning-ahead part of the spec is what makes it fun for me. Taking that away would kill it more than low damage.

[ChroniKill]

Noooo. I like the misaligned cooldowns. Granted, they went a little overboard with serenity on 12 seconds, but still much better than a static rotation. The planning-ahead part of the spec is what makes it fun for me. Taking that away would kill it more than low damage.

 

I don't mind slightly misaligned cooldowns, the problem is when most of them don't line up. To me, a sustained spec has a sustained rotation to go with it (why I like assault, although I haven't used it much) and a burst spec should have the planning aspect of "what is my best attack to use now whilst x is on cooldown and so I don't proc y too soon".

 

Edit: Actually, thinking about it some more, I wouldn't mind the CD of Serenity being slightly off if the channel time of TKT would just be normal. Please devs, even if you don't change anything else rotationally, just make it 3s again.

Edited April 8, 2015 by ChroniKill

[TACeMossie]

Ooh I got the fix for the spec:

 

1. People should stack alacrity. At ~450 alacrity rating, the spec is fun to play again. Its also what Milas used in his best parse (which is still the best parse on the leaderboard despite 3.1.1)

2. Now that you've stacked alacrity, time for fixing the damage

 

1. Wrath strength doubled.

It currently gives +20% damage (which is bugged BTW), so buff it to 40%. Any more, and it starts being a little too bursty and PvPers will complain

 

2. Cooldown on Force Leech/Force Serenity increased to 13.5 seconds, and its damage is increased by 11%

 

3. Parasitism has been redesigned: "Increases the heals received from Death Field and Force Leech by 100%. Additionally, Demolish and Crushing Darkness will heal you for 30% of the damage they do." (Basically, the self heals were removed from Affliction + Creeping Terror, so it no longer scales with multiple targets. Self heals are about the same as the original single target self-heals, though a little more bursty)

 

4. Lightning Barrage now additionally reduces the cost of Force Lightning by 10 force, on top of its other effects.

 

What they do:

 

Point 1: Gives approximately a 4% damage boost

Point 2: Gives approximately a 1% damage boost (assuming Force Leech was delayed to make the set bonus work on cooldown)

Point 3: Does... Absolutely nothing in PvE but tones down the pains of DoTspread in PvP

Point 4: Gives significantly more resources to the spec.

 

Should fix the whole thing. Maybe.

Edited April 8, 2015 by TACeMossie

[cs_zoltan]

I don't mind slightly misaligned cooldowns, the problem is when most of them don't line up. To me, a sustained spec has a sustained rotation to go with it (why I like assault, although I haven't used it much) and a burst spec should have the planning aspect of "what is my best attack to use now whilst x is on cooldown and so I don't proc y too soon".

 

That's how I feel too. Well I guess one way or the other someone won't be happy :/

I don't necessary want a rigid rotation. I would be fine if they just toned down the misaligned cooldowns. 12-15-18 is a mess. 12-18 wouldn't be that bad imo.

 

1. People should stack alacrity. At ~450 alacrity rating, the spec is fun to play again.

Am I the only one who thinks it's bad design that you need a specific stat allocation to make the rotation "work"?

[Ryuku-sama]

That's how I feel too. Well I guess one way or the other someone won't be happy :/

I don't necessary want a rigid rotation. I would be fine if they just toned down the misaligned cooldowns. 12-15-18 is a mess. 12-18 wouldn't be that bad imo.

 

Leech doesn't have a 12s CD. It's an effective 13.5s since the CD only start at the end of the GCD not on activation.

 

 

Am I the only one who thinks it's bad design that you need a specific stat allocation to make the rotation "work"?

 

Leth, Viru.... Need a specific crit rate to have sustainable rotation. Not enough crit and their rotation isn't sustainable. Too much and they are wasting energy.

Madness needs high alacrity simply to make the rotation faster paced and alleviate the energy management problem a little but it can still be done at low alacrity level.

[AsmodeusML]

Ooh I got the fix for the spec:

 

1. People should stack alacrity. At ~450 alacrity rating, the spec is fun to play again. Its also what Milas used in his best parse (which is still the best parse on the leaderboard despite 3.1.1)

2. Now that you've stacked alacrity, time for fixing the damage

 

1. Wrath strength doubled.

It currently gives +20% damage (which is bugged BTW), so buff it to 40%. Any more, and it starts being a little too bursty and PvPers will complain

 

2. Cooldown on Force Leech/Force Serenity increased to 13.5 seconds, and its damage is increased by 11%

 

3. Parasitism has been redesigned: "Increases the heals received from Death Field and Force Leech by 100%. Additionally, Demolish and Crushing Darkness will heal you for 30% of the damage they do." (Basically, the self heals were removed from Affliction + Creeping Terror, so it no longer scales with multiple targets. Self heals are about the same as the original single target self-heals, though a little more bursty)

 

4. Lightning Barrage now additionally reduces the cost of Force Lightning by 10 force, on top of its other effects.

 

What they do:

 

Point 1: Gives approximately a 4% damage boost

Point 2: Gives approximately a 1% damage boost (assuming Force Leech was delayed to make the set bonus work on cooldown)

Point 3: Does... Absolutely nothing in PvE but tones down the pains of DoTspread in PvP

Point 4: Gives significantly more resources to the spec.

 

Should fix the whole thing. Maybe.

 

Alacrity does absolutely nothing to fix rotation since everything just speeds up equally (but please correct me if i am wrong). And yes Force Leech needs to be either made instant and have 15 s CD or what you wrote

I like the changes you propose , with buff to Death Mark up to 15 % it should give ~7-8 % which is preciselly what spec needs.

Edited April 8, 2015 by AsmodeusML

[ChroniKill]

They're pretty nice changes. The key to making the spec work (for me at least) is the 2s TKT channel. It just needs to be removed. Now, I believe the DPS increase from the shorter channel works out to be about 13%, so just increase the base damage of TKT by 15% (to make it a nice round number) and remove that change. The rotation would move a little bit here and there, but the core around Vanquish/FIB CDs and refreshing dots would at least for a nice immovable pattern.