Is it time to refresh the Subscriber/F2P model?

[Ghisallo]

You're right -- I signed on to play Kotor 3 -- a BW TOR game that should have been single player. I accepted the MMO part as an optional multiplayer component that I could ignore just like I didn't use the multiplayer in the BG [engine] games. Had the game actually been what MMO players expected, I (and probably lots of others) would have been the ones abandoning the game shortly after launch.

 

I get that but this is not what Bioware actually intended on building... it is what came out due to the reasons that are admitted to. Yes the MMOers abandoned the game because it was not an MMO....the Devs however wanted those MMOers back because this game was ALWAYS intended to be an MMO. Rather than say "hey THOSE people left cater to me" when someone says "sorry guys we meant to do this and see we are fixing it" and make strides in those "fixes" to further clarify their intent a proper response is to ask "is this the game for me."

 

These companies make decisions on money. The changes they made brought them A LOT more money and returning subscriptions so they will say "we made the right call". If you want to prove your point the proper action is for you, and those who feel as you do, to leave and take your money with you. Not because I want to see you quit btw but rather because in the end they only listen to wallets. Where the money goes their development will go.

 

Obviously I disagree, and a lot of the remaining players do as well (check out all the compliments level 60 FPs and OPs are getting -- I can wait a couple of seconds). The "foundation" they have is what they started with at launch -- breaking that up and hoping that the players that stayed with them will stay through the changes and that the players that left will return is a double risk.

 

I have been a "raider" for a decade. Raiders don't come in drooves to the forums saying "wow awesome raid zone... thanks devs!!!!" They are like my bosses at work... you can literally save someones life and the bosses will not congratulate you, in their opinion it is simply you doing your job. To get an award you need to be nominated by co-workers. BUT, just like raiders, the bosses will be the FIRST people to let you know when you have screwed up.

 

Regarding FPs...a point counter point argument exists....you saw people complaining it was too hard... people defended the difficulty. Now people do say "thanks for the nerfs" and the others say "it didn't need to be nerfed." Again welcome to a dynamic every MMO has... nice try to make it seem unique to SWTOR.

 

Also you saw issues with "bugs" at the beginning of the expac....ummm gain fairly standard fair. Not saying its "right" mind you, only that you seem to be conveniently holding SWTOR to a higher standard.

 

The amount of new content they are releasing now (in terms of FPs and OPs) is on par with just about every other MMO out there with the singular exception of WoW now.

 

I get it you want a multiplayer TOR game. Whether it be to support that as a viable alternate path you have to try and tear down the work Bioware has done in the opposite direction or simply being over criticval of what they do because you don't like the direction in general doesn't matter and doesn't mean that they didn't do the work though.

 

I am not saying STOR is some paragon of MMORPGS... BUT it is better than most out there at the moment tbh and I have played all of them and basically left one of them after being there since closed testing in 2010 to be here because this game is simply a better MMORPG.

 

I am sorry that an MMORPG was not what you were looking for but that is what SWTOR is and was meant to be.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Ghisallo

[eartharioch]

I get that but this is not what Bioware actually intended on building... it is what came out due to the reasons that are admitted to. Yes the MMOers abandoned the game because it was not an MMO....the Devs however wanted those MMOers back because this game was ALWAYS intended to be an MMO. Rather than say "hey THOSE people left cater to me" when someone says "sorry guys we meant to do this and see we are fixing it" and make strides in those "fixes" to further clarify their intent a proper response is to ask "is this the game for me."

They can try that, but it's not likely to work. It's easier to "cater" to your existing customers than ignore them and try to get different ones. I don't care about "original intent" or excuses or reasons -- all I care about is "is the game fun". It was -- at launch -- and they have managed to add enough to things to keep it fun, but they haven't been adding them fast enough or in with high enough quality to keep me around much longer. But, as you said...

 

These companies make decisions on money. The changes they made brought them A LOT more money and returning subscriptions so they will say "we made the right call". If you want to prove your point the proper action is for you, and those who feel as you do, to leave and take your money with you. Not because I want to see you quit btw but rather because in the end they only listen to wallets. Where the money goes their development will go.

We'll see. The last person to wish me well on my way out [Lord Artemis] left in a disappointed, bitter, and angry huff a few months ago. I'm still wrapping up a few class stories, and enough people in my guild that I'm on the primary raid team now, so I'm having fun *now* -- but I can clearly see the last exit sign approaching. I know that BW is also trying to build more road past it. Only time will tell if they can build enough to keep me going.

 

I have been a "raider" for a decade. Raiders don't come in drooves to the forums saying "wow awesome raid zone... thanks devs!!!!" They are like my bosses at work... you can literally save someones life and the bosses will not congratulate you, in their opinion it is simply you doing your job. To get an award you need to be nominated by co-workers. BUT, just like raiders, the bosses will be the FIRST people to let you know when you have screwed up.

 

Regarding FPs...a point counter point argument exists....you saw people complaining it was too hard... people defended the difficulty. Now people do say "thanks for the nerfs" and the others say "it didn't need to be nerfed." Again welcome to a dynamic every MMO has... nice try to make it seem unique to SWTOR.

I didn't say it was unique to SWTOR -- although I haven't played any other MMOs long enough to get into their endgames, so I don't have any comparison points. All I can say is that the 3.x FPs aren't very fun, and that from what I've seen, raiders aren't just "not coming to the forums in droves", they aren't coming to the raids either. But BW, not us, would have a better picture.

 

Also you saw issues with "bugs" at the beginning of the expac....ummm gain fairly standard fair. Not saying its "right" mind you, only that you seem to be conveniently holding SWTOR to a higher standard.

The bugs (no quotes needed) that I saw at the "beginning" (quotes needed here) of SoR were substantially more prevalent than RotHC or any other BW game, and BW's speed (and quality) of fixes substantially less, than what I experienced with RotHC or any other BW game, or any major title from any other studio. I'm not holding SWTOR to higher standards, I'm saying they didn't meet my standard standards.

 

The amount of new content they are releasing now (in terms of FPs and OPs) is on par with just about every other MMO out there with the singular exception of WoW now.

I don't care how much more (or less) content BW is putting out than companies making games I don't play is. I have plenty of games (damn Steam sales) that I haven't played yet, so if BW doesn't deliver enough [quality] content, I'll just stop (or slow down) playing SWTOR and play the other games. I have enough character unlocks and credits to run preferred for a while (weekly raids, etc.) -- it's not like I'd destroy my account in rage if I ran out of things to do.

 

I get it you want a multiplayer TOR game. Whether it be to support that as a viable alternate path you have to try and tear down the work Bioware has done in the opposite direction or simply being over criticval of what they do because you don't like the direction in general doesn't matter and doesn't mean that they didn't do the work though.

 

I am not saying STOR is some paragon of MMORPGS... BUT it is better than most out there at the moment tbh and I have played all of them and basically left one of them after being there since closed testing in 2010 to be here because this game is simply a better MMORPG.

 

I am sorry that an MMORPG was not what you were looking for but that is what SWTOR is and was meant to be.

I wanted (past tense) a single player game, and I got it. It had multiplayer options, I've tried them, and they have added to my enjoyment. I've had fun here, and I'm not angry or trying to tear down anything. I just think you have a vastly (and unjustifiably) over positive outlook on what BW does, and am calling you on it. I'm not comparing BW or SWTOR to any other company or game, I just don't think "they don't suck as much as others" is a valid basis for saying that they are doing a great job.

[Devrius]

First I edited that out to be polite... sorry I didn't do it fast enough. So please accept my apology.

 

I am easily annoyed when I have only slept 3 hours in the last 24 and can't sleep yet because of my schedule tomorrow.

 

Second I have refuted it any number of ways. The problem is you are not thinking like a business does, you are thinking, understandably, like a consumer who saw the word "free" and got caught out when it wasn't. NONE of the games that are actually analogous to SWTOR (Rift and other MMO's to me MOBA's simply do not count) are free... they all have "tricks" to get you to pay and these other games "tricks" simply do not work as well. As a matter of fact I applaud SWTOR because at least they are upfront. They don't say "no traps or tricks" when those things exist. You look at their web site and the benefits and detriments are there for you to see in black and white.

 

A game like this gets a budget. That budget is based on revenue. They lose revenue the budget goes down and the amount and quality of content drops. Thus far this is the ONLY f2p MMORPG that I have played (again not MOBA or CO-OP) that still maintains the same level of consistency that one would expect from a subscription MMO. Every other game I know that transitioned, even a game with the MMO notoriety of EQ2 simply managed to stop the free fall revenue wise and the quality of the developement thee after demonstrates the smaller budget. Here not only did they stop the free fall but they completely reversed the trend.

 

[for games I have played that have transitioned... EQ2, Warhammer AoC, Rift, Aion]

 

That last bit is likely the biggest nail in the coffin of your idea that it is the IP that matters. Not only has SWTOR's revenue increased since the change over but subscription rates have increased as well. Why? because the increased revenue has allowed them to make more content....more content = more people willing to maintain subscriptions. Content is the biggest factor (I will never say IP isn't one at all) and they could only develope the greater content if they had a revenue stream to justify the budget for it. The other games managed to stop the free fall but did not reverse the trends and due to this they still suffer from paired down budgets and skeleton crews that have a clear effect on the content.

 

1st off, thanks for the apology it's very rare to see something that gracious in a forum.

 

2nd the problem with the current system is that it alienates new players and gives SWTOR a bad image and while I agree that they have budgets to prepare and incomes to keep in mind when making viability assessments of future expansions (and any new content for that matter), the problem of SWTOR's marketable image is also an issue.

 

One of the 1st things in marketing is devoting a relatively large sum of the profits to marketing and creating a good image of the company, then again winning worst company multiple years in a row might make that futile now that I think about it...

 

While looking for other MMOs and checking restrictions, the number one question that poped up was "Is it as bad as SWTOR?" Not asked by me but other people in different forums.

 

Right now because it claims to be "F2P" SWTOR is the metric by which a highly restrictive, subscription based "F2P" MMO is measured.

 

You might be right that I am biased by costumer goggles (Hell I'm pretty damn sure) but it just irks me to see this great game only have solid populations at specific times of the day and for limited content (old raids are mostly dead), it has so much untapped potential and could be so much more then it is.

 

I have stopped playing SWTOR for now, but I'll keep my subscription going, because I'll always come back and while I know it's not much my sub does help keep the lights on.

[NUTMANIAC]

Bingo

 

As EA has said themselves (and supplied the info for all to see) F2P players offer up a VERY SMALL amount of financial support to this product.

 

The MASS MAJORITY of Cartel shop sales are done by SUBSCRIBERS, not F2P or Preferred accounts.

 

What this game needs is better design, better development, better support

All with the intention of getting MORE SUBSCRIBERS

 

All F2P really do is use up resources and offer up nothing back in return

 

Dude I was f2p almost 4 months ago ..I became preferred a week later and then subbed almost 2 weeks after preferred status

Edited April 2, 2015 by NUTMANIAC

[Anaesha]

Dude I was f2p almost 4 months ago ..I became preferred a week later and then subbed almost 2 weeks after preferred status

 

He never said that there weren't exception of course there are going to be people who started out f2p and liked the game enough to sub or just wanted to get rid of the restrictions. However, I'm betting that if you asked all the f2ps if they would be willing to buy a sub to support the game the majority of them would say no.

[GrimRita]

 

That last bit is likely the biggest nail in the coffin of your idea that it is the IP that matters. Not only has SWTOR's revenue increased since the change over but subscription rates have increased as well. Why? because the increased revenue has allowed them to make more content....more content = more people willing to maintain subscriptions. .

 

Just to pour water on your flames. Not one single subscriber based MMO has managed to actually INCREASE their numbers outside of WoW and Eve. I am not including some of the bigger MMOs in Asia either.

 

And had subs increased, EA would have jumped all over it. The reason why they don't give numbers any more, is because its embarrassing and probably no where near of its peak of 500k from the facts you kept pointing to over and over and over. 2013 has gone, 2014 saw a decline in revenue and a very big one at that, which is why they again bundled it with Sim City.

 

This came despite Strongholds being released - proof that players will NOT pay for rehashed game assets, yet that lesson hasn't been learned as they continue to rehashed speeders,mounts and other tat to shove in Cartel Packs.

 

The entire model is STALE and the reason for the decline in subs. I guarantee you at the next report, revenues will be down again, despite Shadows being released. Must there be yet another Summer where Bioware do zero communication, servers become ghost towns and wait until October for another F2P attempt?

[Kalfear]

He never said that there weren't exception of course there are going to be people who started out f2p and liked the game enough to sub or just wanted to get rid of the restrictions. However, I'm betting that if you asked all the f2ps if they would be willing to buy a sub to support the game the majority of them would say no.

 

glad someone capable of thinking outside all or nothing parameters

 

Its always the same here, you make a statement based on facts and evidence already supplied and some "person" comes along and thinks they being a exception somehow changes the over all fact of the statement

 

You are bang on Anaesha and much nicer then me because I simply do not answer those types anymore

Just not worth the effort as they know damn well what was meant, they just trying to argue semantics as they lack any real arguement to counter the claim made (thats backed by EAs own reports)

Edited April 2, 2015 by Kalfear

[Kalfear]

complete opinion and assumptions with no facts to support

 

Its nice you speak for EA and their intentions.

Please share with us how you gain this valuable insight

 

Btw, your post pretty much completely dis-proven by simply reading investor reports that EA legally obligated to supply each quarter

 

but you will not do that as it doesn't agree with your OPINION and AGENDA to get the game for free

 

As the old saying goes

Don't let the fact get in the way of a good story

 

And its very much in play here with you "want it free" types

You ignore mounds of evidence and facts so you can promote your personal agenda issue

 

Facts right now are simple

Current SW:TOR pricing plan is MORE successful then any B2P or F2P MMORPG on the market

When that no longer holds true, only then will EA look at other LESSER pricing schemes

Not before

[Ratajack]

Remove the subscription option from SWTOR, you really think those same people who buy hundred of crates for a particular mount would stop doing so? Because they can't "sub"?Yeah, didn't think so...

 

Being subs and buying packs is related in that those who would have bought CC and spend it on pack or the CC Market regardless of system implemented can get a steady stream of CC monthly and other perks.

 

Remove the perks, remove the monthly CC and those same guys would undoubtedly still spend money on the CC market.

 

It's not that F2P buy packs, it's that current "subscribers" would no matter even if subbing wasn't an option.

 

So, why should those that choose to be LEECHES and not pay the subscription fee get everything the benefits that subscribers get simply because SOMEONE ELSE (namely subscribers) will continue to buy those CC's?

[Ratajack]

Because F2P and Preferred never sub, am I right?

 

You always seem to have an axe to grind, have some tea.

 

F2P players always have that possibility of transitioning into a subscriber, believe it or not. F2P also made the game world more livelier, speed up queues and ultimately saved this game from going under. But you'd do your best to forget there is a reason the game went hybrid, wouldn't you?

 

But no, they only take up resources. Nothing more.

 

When they become subscribers, BY DEFINITION they are no longer F2P or preferred. At that point they are SUBSCRIBERS.

 

Tell me again, how F2P or preferred are major financial contributors to the game.

 

 

BY DEFINITION F2P have NEVER spent a cent on the game. Even the cheapest $5 puurchase will bump a player up to preferred status. I find it very hard to believe that many (if any at all) preferred players are actually spending any substantial money on CC's. IMO, if they were spending even $15/month on CC's, that $15 would be better spent to play the sub fee. However unlikely it may be, if a preferred player were spending MORE than $15/month on CC's, then it would make more sense to spend $15 of that monthly budget on the sub fee and the rest on CC's, iMO.

[Ratajack]

They can try that, but it's not likely to work. It's easier to "cater" to your existing customers than ignore them and try to get different ones. I don't care about "original intent" or excuses or reasons -- all I care about is "is the game fun". It was -- at launch -- and they have managed to add enough to things to keep it fun, but they haven't been adding them fast enough or in with high enough quality to keep me around much longer. But, as you said...

 

ITT "I don't care what the devs intended to design, I want them to cater to ME and MY preferred game play style".

 

 

We'll see. The last person to wish me well on my way out [Lord Artemis] left in a disappointed, bitter, and angry huff a few months ago. I'm still wrapping up a few class stories, and enough people in my guild that I'm on the primary raid team now, so I'm having fun *now* -- but I can clearly see the last exit sign approaching. I know that BW is also trying to build more road past it. Only time will tell if they can build enough to keep me going.

 

Allow me to fill the vacancy LordArtemis left.

 

<----------------The logout screen is THAT way. Don't let the it hit you in the posterior on the way out. Maybe one of those other single player games will be more to your liking.

[Ghisallo]

Just to pour water on your flames. Not one single subscriber based MMO has managed to actually INCREASE their numbers outside of WoW and Eve. I am not including some of the bigger MMOs in Asia either.

 

And had subs increased, EA would have jumped all over it. The reason why they don't give numbers any more, is because its embarrassing and probably no where near of its peak of 500k from the facts you kept pointing to over and over and over. 2013 has gone, 2014 saw a decline in revenue and a very big one at that, which is why they again bundled it with Sim City.

 

This came despite Strongholds being released - proof that players will NOT pay for rehashed game assets, yet that lesson hasn't been learned as they continue to rehashed speeders,mounts and other tat to shove in Cartel Packs.

 

The entire model is STALE and the reason for the decline in subs. I guarantee you at the next report, revenues will be down again, despite Shadows being released. Must there be yet another Summer where Bioware do zero communication, servers become ghost towns and wait until October for another F2P attempt?

 

Did I say increase over their peak? Nope. And BTW WoW hasn't increased over peak in something like 2-3 years now. Even if my source on that one is wrong on that one NO ONE can deny that their revenue increased. (see there I admitted I can be wrong on facts... something you have refused to do multiple times when you get your facts blatantly wrong... <cough> ignores the new multi year contract for EA/Bioware to have the rights to SWTOR<cough>

 

This is what games care about. We get it...you do not like SWTOR anymore. You have decided to let your sub run out, so have, allegedly any number of your guildies.

 

It doesn't change the fact that in 2013 it was the # 4 subscrition (and/or subscription f2p hybrid MMO) making MORE money that Eve online, and that in 2014, if you look at the same games it retained the number 4 spot,

BEFORE SoR launch (remember right now only Q3 numbers are in)

 

This is how the industry judges such things. Players say "I don't like this... I don't like that.... this is stale"...this is subjective and "flexible" tbh. The industry says "you made X million's of dollars?" This is an objective metric. Yes 2014 saw a decline in revenue FOR THE FIRST THREE QUARTERS. Using the first three quarters as a metric versus and entire year is either purposefully disingenuous on your part OR simply ignorant about the details, not sure which tbh.

 

Why do I say that? Because in 2013 the "big" new content patch, RoTHC, was launched in April. The main new Content patch for 2014 came AFTER that Q3 earnings call. You did know that was just for Q3 and that they have not released Q4 yet correct? If not please do your due dilligence later before you just post something reflexively from reddit. Also the lion's share of that 62 Million dollar loss was from the complete bust of the latest SimCity game.

 

so yeah. again we get you don't like SWTOR but on what matters to the businesses that make these games... SWTOR is healthier and doing better than most everyone else. Your personal dislike does NOT mean DOOM and my personal like does NOT mean SUCCESS either. What matters is balance sheets and you can't even properly read them or you would have know that the Q3 report you posted was not something to be used to determine a full FY of revenue due to the different timing of the content drops in 2013vs 2014.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Ghisallo

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Short answer, no it doesnt need revisited. This is just another thread for people who want to get as much as possible without paying for anything.

[Ghisallo]

When they become subscribers, BY DEFINITION they are no longer F2P or preferred. At that point they are SUBSCRIBERS.

 

Tell me again, how F2P or preferred are major financial contributors to the game.

 

 

BY DEFINITION F2P have NEVER spent a cent on the game. Even the cheapest $5 puurchase will bump a player up to preferred status. I find it very hard to believe that many (if any at all) preferred players are actually spending any substantial money on CC's. IMO, if they were spending even $15/month on CC's, that $15 would be better spent to play the sub fee. However unlikely it may be, if a preferred player were spending MORE than $15/month on CC's, then it would make more sense to spend $15 of that monthly budget on the sub fee and the rest on CC's, iMO.

 

People confabulate the term f2p with an actual microtransaction. The problem is that, tbh, neither EA, nor any of us should be concerned about a player REALLY playing for free.

 

As for the cash... FYI. Well over half of this games income is now produced via microtransactions. According to Bioware metrics the majority of those transactions are made by subscribers BUT that then means the balance has to be spent by preferred and "normal" f2p accounts.

[Ratajack]

People confabulate the term f2p with an actual microtransaction. The problem is that, tbh, neither EA, nor any of us should be concerned about a player REALLY playing for free.

 

As for the cash... FYI. Well over half of this games income is now produced via microtransactions. According to Bioware metrics the majority of those transactions are made by subscribers BUT that then means the balance has to be spent by preferred and "normal" f2p accounts.

 

We don't know the actual percentages of CM revenue that comes from subscribers, but we do know that the vast majority of CM revenue is from SUBSCRIBERS. We can also surmise that not all subscribers spend the same amount on the CM each month. Some spend $0 on the CM while others may spend $100 or more.

 

What is that vast majority and how much does each subscriber spend on the CM? Only BW knows.

 

How much of the "non-subscriber" CM revenue does not actually come from those "non-subscribers" themselves, but rather from "gifts", such as CC cards, that are given to those "non-subscribers".

 

I'll ask again, why would someone spend $15 or more a month on CC's if they were a preferred player and would still at least have a credit cap, even if they had all the other unlocks? Are they buying the CC's to buy packs or hypercrates and sell them on the GTN? I find that unlikely since even a single pack sold could put them over the credit cap, let alone a whole hypercrate. Why would anyone spend real money to buy credits they would not be able to access due to a credit cap.

 

I find it much more likely that if that preferred player is spending their own money, it would be to OCCASIONALLY purchase a CC card, likely just before a big sale, the black/black or white/white dyes make a CM appearance or there is some other specific item they particularly want being made available for direct purchase. As I stated before, there is also the chance that any CC card redeemed by a preferred player was gifted to that player. I am not trying to imply that only preferred can be gifted CC cards, but rather to point out that it cannot just be assumed that any CC card redeemed by a preferred account was actually purchased by that player.

 

Hypothetically, though, let's say 75% of the CM revenue comes from subscribers (although I suspect that the actual percentage is much higher).

 

I do not know actual numbers, so I'll use hypothetical and small figures for ease.

 

Let's say that BW has 100,000 subscribers at $15 month. That is 1.5 million per month in subs.

 

Let's say that there are a total of 200,000 players active that are not paying the sub fee. This gives us a total of 300,000 active players.

 

Let's say that BW receives 300,000 in CM revenue each month. Using that 75% figure, only 75,000 of that 300,000 is from "non-subscribing accounts", with 225,000 coming from subscribers.

 

Add this 225,000 to our 1.5 million from subscriptions and we get 1,725,000 from subscribers compared to only 75,000 from "non-subscribers".

 

Are these the actual numbers? No, only BW has those and they choose not to release the actual numbers. I would be surprised, though, if the actual numbers did not show even less of a financial contribution from "non-subscribers".

 

Tell me again how those non-subscribers are supporting this game. Tell me again how those not paying the subscription fee and LEECHING off the actual subscribers should get everything subscribers get.

[Ghisallo]

Any amount of cash helps... that is support. Lets say it's 90% subscribers (which I think is WAY high)... In 2013 (the only year we have a full breakdown for atm) they made 139 million off the cash shop... that's still 14 million dollars from preferred/f2p players. You don't leave that kind of money lying on the table.

 

Those preferred and f2p players also have a psychological effect on the Subscriber... they make the game feel full and so the subscriber keeps paying. This is why I think the current system is fine. It encourages preferred or subscribership but even the player who never spends a dime serves a purpose.

[Ratajack]

Any amount of cash helps... that is support. Lets say it's 90% subscribers (which I think is WAY high)... In 2013 (the only year we have a full breakdown for atm) they made 139 million off the cash shop... that's still 14 million dollars from preferred/f2p players. You don't leave that kind of money lying on the table.

 

Those preferred and f2p players also have a psychological effect on the Subscriber... they make the game feel full and so the subscriber keeps paying. This is why I think the current system is fine. It encourages preferred or subscribership but even the player who never spends a dime serves a purpose.

 

I may have misinterpreted you. Either that, or it looks like we may agree.

 

I think that the current system works, and that the F2P and preferred restrictions are fine as they are. I will never argue against giving subscribers MORE benefits. I will not support loosening or removing any of the current F2P or preferred restrictions, even if they gave the subscribers more, though.

 

IMO, loosening or removing any of the F2P or preferred restrictions simply removes incentives to subscribe. I think they can give more incentives to subscribe by giving more benefits to subscribers.

 

Adding one incentive to subscribe and removing one is not necessarily a break even, though.

 

An example of this is the credit cap. The credit cap is one of the few things that cannot be unlocked and is one of the biggest incentives to subscribe. Loosening or removing the credit cap, even if they were to add another benefit, would likely cost them subs as there would be little point in subscribing since players can purchase almost all the other unlocks either through a one time purcahse of CC's or via credits through the GTN.

 

Why pay to play the game if they can play the entire game with no restrictions after they purchase all the unlocks and there is no credit cap?

[Ghisallo]

 

Why pay to play the game if they can play the entire game with no restrictions after they purchase all the unlocks and there is no credit cap?

 

We do agree I believe

 

And this is the issue. People keep making apples and orange comparisons with say LoL. That game is not an MMO first and foremost and costs a lot less to run. Secondly in the early stages it is p2w. Runes are power and being able to buy champions with RP and runes with IP gives you an advantage. Now later on that advantage wanes but still they encourage you to spend with that early p2w.

 

ESO (which I would argue is also apples to oranges) will be p2w because of the experience boosts they will be sellng and the new Champion system they have.

 

Rift... an apples to apples comparison basically incentivizes buying things because the grind to get them in game is simply nutty. They also let you basically buy enough gear to be solid in Raid zones... you can hit level 65 and then get fully decked out with your credit card.

 

Now I like SWTOR's model because it is HONEST...they don't say "no traps no tricks" and have veiled p2w in model. The whole point of those models is that you basically spend money to get the advantages in microtransactions and thus don't realize how much you pay half the time. It is basically a con job... like the three card monty guy on the street corner. SWTOR wants your money too but they are upfront with how they do things and there is no p2w.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Ghisallo

[MelodyofLegends]

well, speaking as someone who began their subbed about a month or so before the launch of Free to Play, and made great effort to maintain it and not let my sub lapse. I can only share my own experiences, which means I have no knowledge to impart as a free to play or even preferred... I still feel that however minor, I can provide something resembling value to this topic.

 

My favorite aspect of this game is the multiple stories and how you decide much of your PC. (my favorite is the Inquisitor) along with the fact that quite a bit is soloable.

 

I disagree that the game does not have enough content to justify a sub. that may have been true at the beggining but it has come a long way since launch and with more being announced the game can only improve further.

 

Perhaps I am merely spoiled as in all honesty,this was my first stab at playing an mmorpg (I refuse to count Diablo3) but SWTOR is the only game I have been able to willingly remain as a sub.

 

(don't waste my time recommending WOW as I already tried it and hated it for several reasons.)

 

In my opinion most of the restrictions for Free to play (about 87 percent) are indeed acceptable.

 

However I think the 2 biggest most blatantly cash grabby ones are the limit to 2 ability bars and the credit cap.

in fact a these restrictions plus the others are precisely why I started my sub instead of waiting for F2P.

 

I do agree however that Preferred players should have slightly less aggravation. maybe give preferred players room to breathe?

[Ratajack]

well, speaking as someone who began their subbed about a month or so before the launch of Free to Play, and made great effort to maintain it and not let my sub lapse. I can only share my own experiences, which means I have no knowledge to impart as a free to play or even preferred... I still feel that however minor, I can provide something resembling value to this topic.

 

My favorite aspect of this game is the multiple stories and how you decide much of your PC. (my favorite is the Inquisitor) along with the fact that quite a bit is soloable.

 

I disagree that the game does not have enough content to justify a sub. that may have been true at the beggining but it has come a long way since launch and with more being announced the game can only improve further.

 

Perhaps I am merely spoiled as in all honesty,this was my first stab at playing an mmorpg (I refuse to count Diablo3) but SWTOR is the only game I have been able to willingly remain as a sub.

 

(don't waste my time recommending WOW as I already tried it and hated it for several reasons.)

 

In my opinion most of the restrictions for Free to play (about 87 percent) are indeed acceptable.

 

However I think the 2 biggest most blatantly cash grabby ones are the limit to 2 ability bars and the credit cap.

in fact a these restrictions plus the others are precisely why I started my sub instead of waiting for F2P.

 

I do agree however that Preferred players should have slightly less aggravation. maybe give preferred players room to breathe?

 

Preferred players are ALREADY less restricted than F2P players. The preferred restrictions still leave incentive to subscribe, though.

[Pietrastor]

IMO, loosening or removing any of the F2P or preferred restrictions simply removes incentives to subscribe.

In some cases definitely. However, there are things in current model that do nothing but turn-off potential customers. 2 quickbars is the most idiotic aspect of it, follwoed closely by stuff like speeder at level 25 or lack of ability to hide-helmet/unify colors. No one will subscribe just to get these things lifted, they will just leave the game and never come back thx to crappy first impression. Unlimited operations or credits are incentives to subscribe, but not stuff like I mentioned.

[LyraineAlei]

well, speaking as someone who began their subbed about a month or so before the launch of Free to Play, and made great effort to maintain it and not let my sub lapse. I can only share my own experiences, which means I have no knowledge to impart as a free to play or even preferred... I still feel that however minor, I can provide something resembling value to this topic.

 

My favorite aspect of this game is the multiple stories and how you decide much of your PC. (my favorite is the Inquisitor) along with the fact that quite a bit is soloable.

 

I disagree that the game does not have enough content to justify a sub. that may have been true at the beggining but it has come a long way since launch and with more being announced the game can only improve further.

 

Perhaps I am merely spoiled as in all honesty,this was my first stab at playing an mmorpg (I refuse to count Diablo3) but SWTOR is the only game I have been able to willingly remain as a sub.

 

(don't waste my time recommending WOW as I already tried it and hated it for several reasons.)

 

In my opinion most of the restrictions for Free to play (about 87 percent) are indeed acceptable.

 

However I think the 2 biggest most blatantly cash grabby ones are the limit to 2 ability bars and the credit cap.

in fact a these restrictions plus the others are precisely why I started my sub instead of waiting for F2P.

 

I do agree however that Preferred players should have slightly less aggravation. maybe give preferred players room to breathe?

 

Prefs have a higher credit cap than F2Ps, a reduced chat-cooldown from F2Ps, six character slots instead of just two, and those are what I can recall off the top of my head.

 

I also want to say a row or more of inventory than F2P, more GTN sell slots, but I can't remember if those are true or not.

 

But I also wouldn't mind giving Prefs access to customer support, since they have paid some money to the game.

 

Edit: Not arguing your point, just pointing out that Prefs do have a few more perks than flat-out-F2Ps.

Edited April 3, 2015 by LyraineAlei

[Mowermanx]

In some cases definitely. However, there are things in current model that do nothing but turn-off potential customers. 2 quickbars is the most idiotic aspect of it, follwoed closely by stuff like speeder at level 25 or lack of ability to hide-helmet/unify colors. No one will subscribe just to get these things lifted, they will just leave the game and never come back thx to crappy first impression. Unlimited operations or credits are incentives to subscribe, but not stuff like I mentioned.

 

And what if they don't care about credits or endgame? Doesn't really fit with your argument, does it?

In fact that whole line of thinking doesn't fit because if you've come to the point in the game where those things matter, you have literally come to the crossroads of whether the game is worth investing in or not, you will know all the perks, the pros, cons and all that is entailed in having a subscription and you make your choice.

[Ratajack]

In some cases definitely. However, there are things in current model that do nothing but turn-off potential customers. 2 quickbars is the most idiotic aspect of it, follwoed closely by stuff like speeder at level 25 or lack of ability to hide-helmet/unify colors. No one will subscribe just to get these things lifted, they will just leave the game and never come back thx to crappy first impression. Unlimited operations or credits are incentives to subscribe, but not stuff like I mentioned.

 

The things that you mentioned are also things that can be unlocked without a subscription. Those unlocks can be purchased either directly from the CM or with credits via the GTN.

[Ghisallo]

The things that you mentioned are also things that can be unlocked without a subscription. Those unlocks can be purchased either directly from the CM or with credits via the GTN.

 

Exactly... people make it sound like so much of this stuff doesn't exist anywhere else but here. EVERY f2p MMO that also has a subscription requires unlocks for stuff...if not what is the point of a subscription. Honestly...if you want a 100% f2p game you NEED to go to these games because in a hybrid model these things ALWAYS exist.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Ghisallo