How not to chase a GS...

[ALaggyGrunt]

If the best-case imaginary scenario we seriously argue about is about 8 scouts with voice chat vs 8 gunships, the gunships stack way too well. If it's 4-6 scouts to handle all those gunships, and something else being actual counters to the scouts, it's not so bad.

[Yojiro]

Good video, as both lesson and entertainment. Not sure why it had to turn into an argument???

 

Because these are the forums. EVERYTHING turns into an argument

[Bolo_Yeung]

So, time for conclusions...

 

1st match - Lost Shipyards - domination

I have started with Tensor, meet with Drako in his scout at A, after about minute of sat humping and shooting at each other (he was winning) I have fatfingered Power Die and had a date with the asteroid nearby. Switched to GS, flied at same sat.

Ambush, ion and slug follow-up, Drako was @ 27% but apparently he had large engine reserve. We have engaged in short dogfight, with some hits from each other, then, due to some other players forcing Drako probably to BR away and giving me an opening for finishing slug.

 

Second one I have started wih friendly invitation by BRing right to Drako. The invitation was warmly accepted... after a few seconds dogfight I forced myself to go away (After all, our discussion was about testing GS evading skills, not dogfighting...). For about 90 seconds, I was fleeing pretty well, but then Drako scored few lucky shots and my mouse slipped a little, causing my BR finishing on nearby asteroid with hearty SPLAT. Total time since contact - 105 seconds.

 

3rd was pretty bad on my side - due to being a little late with BRing I got a red hull, my final mistake was attempting of a chance shot on a target of opportunity. Kaboom. 70 seconds. from first contact.

 

4rd meeting I again managed to score a hit with ion, however, due to DF and some luck, Drako managed to run away. I have scored a slug and lovetap with ion, but that wasnt enough. After he regained his breath (i.e. engine and cooldowns), he chased me, till the end of the match (w/o hits scored).

 

So, 2 chases, 105 and 70 seconds, with me hitting 2 targets of opportunity during first. 2 ambushes, 1 with success, 1 with leaving with 20% hull (match ends)

The match was ballanced in Drako's team favor, enging with about 500:1000

 

==========

 

2nd match

 

1. 80 seconds after contact, I got a slug rail right up my... back, then follow up with clusters from Drako. Boom.

 

2. I was more aggresive this time, but this time Drako got hit by someone else and was forced to fleed to nearby sat and hide. I took the liberty of killing other sat defendem, but unfortunately, got slug'ed again. Boom.

(time irrelevant, since It wasn't the chase at all)

 

3. Red-hulled Drako and me engaged in a dogfight. Second before match end, BLC got him.

 

2 chases, both interrupted by someone else's intervention (first was pretty far from ending by Drako himself, on second we both had some backstabbers )

The match was heavily turned on Drako's team side, ending with 101:1000

 

==========

 

3rd match - Shipyards TDM. Pretty shifted to our team favor (end score 50:28). GS wall on our side, though not totally strong - with 1 bomber.

Drako killed me once, ambushing - I killed him three times and three times I did heavy asists - no chases uinfortunately.

Unfortunately, despite my requests on chat, at least one player was heavily hitting him.

In the end, Drako got 8/3/6, me - 11/12/1

 

Looks like Drako had enough and entered premade after this one

=========

 

4rd and 5th match - same situation but reversed. Couldn't get a 1v1 in this one.

One chase , 60 seconds, with Drako DO-ed for the first 15 seconds and Jann-Grey following me for some time as well.

Got killed 7 times, 4 by Drako. End score 15:50, I had 7/4/7, Drako - 7/4/1

 

=================================================================================

Summary:

 

First and second match were best in terms of this research - we had 2 pretty uninterrupted chases in first and some intresting dogfight situations in second

 

1. As I stated before, GS can evade typical battlescout for 1-2 minutes, maybe more. During fleeing, he also has a chance to score few chance hits.

Of course GS-hunting specialized scout would fare better.*

 

2. Ion rail isn't *totally* devastating for a battlescout, but in most cases forces him to either flee or hide. In 8v8 scenario a 10-15 seconds of freedom means a chance to support teammates with mentioned ion rail hit (and imagine what would happen if the ion rail would give 12 seconds 55% slowdown... like it used to before patch reversal)...

 

3. Even in a match with heavy disadvantage, GS pilot with some skill can score a few surprise kills before he will be spotted.

 

Therefore, 8 X scouts against 8 X GS isn't as one-sided scenario as 8 scouts against 4bombers + 4GS Chased GS can manage to score a hit against target of opportunity before dying (or surprise a scout with switching to close combat). Ion rail on other scout will give a breath for teammate that can in turn score some hits on other chasing scouts...

 

*However, since nearly everyone here is calling me a mediocre pilot and Drako is calling himself an 'ace' (and I guess that most people will agree with that as well - I do ), you have to admit either that

- I am better than you said

- or the GS against GS hunter battlescout will survive 1-2 minutes at least,since even with heavy (due to persons posting here, for me - observable but not overwhelming) skill difference in my disadvantage I managed to do it against a typical battlescout).

Win-win situation for me

 

PS. Drako: It will be nice to do it again, but this time with some coordination (flying as away from both teams as possible) and test the pure chase time (without targets of opportunity). Maybe next weekend? Would be nice though on some East Coast/Eurpoe servers, I have 200+latency on West.

 

PPS. Speaking od latency - How much did you have on Progenitor?...

Edited March 2, 2015 by Bolo_Yeung

[Asbetos]

...

 

Only a few things:

1) Funny how every time he got away or killed you, you say he was lucky yet you never seem to have been "lucky". It was ALL skill I suppose?

 

2) 2nd match: if you mean the Denon that I was in, I watched that both from B sat and Drako's stream. There were at LEAST 3-4 chases that ended with you blowing up in relatively fast.

 

 

3. Even in a match with heavy disadvantage, GS pilot with some skill can score a few surprise kills before he will be spotted.

 

Every decent pilot will be able to score a few kills before he's spotted, aces will score a few even after getting spotted, no matter what ship.

 

Therefore, 8 X scouts against 8 X GS isn't as one-sided scenario as 8 scouts against 4bombers + 4GS Chased GS can manage to score a hit against target of opportunity before dying (or surprise a scout with switching to close combat). Ion rail on other scout will give a breath for teammate that can in turn score some hits on other chasing scouts...

 

How can you even try to compare 8 scouts vs 8 GS with 8 scouts vs 4bombers+4GS? 4 bombers+4 GS is an almost balanced combo and can be defeated by it's counter (4 scouts+4 GS) or a fully balanced combo (scouts+GSs+bombers), provided the same skill levels of course.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Asbetos

[nyghtrunner]

OK, I'm at the point I really, really wish someone could lock this thread.

 

However please accept the fact that I do not consider 'becayse I say so' as a valid argument.

And in light of the rest of the thread... Oh sweet irony.

[Bolo_Yeung]

Only a few things:

1) Funny how every time he got away or killed you, you say he was lucky yet you never seem to have been "lucky". It was ALL skill I suppose?

Skill helps luck But if this will make you feel better, I had lucky shots as well In no way I intended to suggest that it was a matter of pure luck, not skill

 

2) 2nd match: if you mean the Denon that I was in, I watched that both from B sat and Drako's stream. There were at LEAST 3-4 chases that ended with you blowing up in relatively fast.

*AT LEAST* 3-4 chases ended with blowing me up, yet... I had 3 deaths, with 1 on a starting Bloodmark. Remaining two I have described. Abd that was 'at least'

Maybe

 

Every decent pilot will be able to score a few kills before he's spotted, aces will score a few even after getting spotted, no matter what ship.

So in a match where all players are decent, everyone will have few kills before getting shoot down. Oh wait, thats impossible.

 

 

How can you even try to compare 8 scouts vs 8 GS with 8 scouts vs 4bombers+4GS? 4 bombers+4 GS is an almost balanced combo and can be defeated by it's counter (4 scouts+4 GS) or a fully balanced combo (scouts+GSs+bombers), provided the same skill levels of course.

 

Well, since I had ben told :

- 8 GS beats 4bomber+4GS

- 8 scouts beats 8GS

- 4bomber+4GS beats 8 scours.

 

I am trying to prove that - "8 scouts beats 8GS" isnt always as simple as '4 bombers + 4 GS beats 8 scouts.

 

OK, I'm at the point I really, really wish someone could lock this thread.

Then why do you keep it going? Am I forcing you to read it?...

Edited March 2, 2015 by Bolo_Yeung

[nyghtrunner]

Then why do you keep it going? Am I forcing you to read it?...

Right, I'm the one that feels compelled to respond to every single post someone makes that doesn't agree with my thoughts and ideas. You just kind of haphazardly slap this on to a play-by-play rebuttal of Asbestos and what he said.

 

I quit posting at page 4. I'm just stunned to find we are at page 9, and it might as well still be at page 4 for all the relevant info/content.

 

Feel free to respond to this comment, dissect it, and slant it to favor your opinion some more. I won't be reading or responding again. But at least that will allow you have the last word, which seems to be all you really want out of this entire thread anyway.

[Bolo_Yeung]

Right, I'm the one that feels compelled to respond to every single post someone makes that doesn't agree with my thoughts and ideas.

But you're the one who demands to close the topic where someone is posting things you don't agree.... not me.

[Drakkolich]

As much as play by plays are awesome I thought videos might be a tad better.

 

Here are the 4 games we played vs each other.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Just rewatched the videos, from my count the score was about 4-8 in my favor. I tried my best to make sure no one was attacking Rei-ko with both GSF chat spam and ops chat in the games. I however I had to fight threw a lot of pressure most games just to stay on him especially game 3 where they had 6 Gunships and he was kiting me threw them over and over.

 

From my perspective of watching these videos I really see how one sided this match up is. Often I finally finish Rei-ko off then kill 1 or even 2 other Gunships and are right back on him chasing him. In the second match I kill him while another Gunship is shooting at me and then go kill the other Gunship.

 

If you still think this match up isn't one sided Bolo I don't know what else we can do to change your mind. Anyways thanks for the fun 1v1's.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Drakkolich

[NeverEvar]

Urt you lost, all vids shown that.

 

On Denon when you got your kill Drako was hit by a Plasma rail, and was on red hull.(Still Drako got to greedy- misplay on his end)

 

(In fairness someone ioned you once to)

 

In Vids 3-4 Drako was heavy focused, on the last Lost all my kills were guys going after him.

 

And if You failed to run before being shot down, it means You failed the chaise in the start.No more, no less.

 

 

So now You can move on to comlaining why 8 scouts cant break easily the 8 person bomber ball asuming that:

all scouts and bomber pilots have only one hand

an eyepatch

thier Voip loses randomly words, but non less then every 2 seconds.

also it translates the rest to Esperanto

And the weather is sunny

 

In other words: Gunship is not the anwser to every question. Unlees the question is:

Whats not the anwser to every question?

[Verain]

Mandatory translation to esperanto is actually a side effect of the ion rail debuff. We think it's a bug, but with ion railgun, who knows.

[Bolo_Yeung]

@Drako:

 

Well...

 

1st match we were pretty alone, you had been pressed by someone firing a missile at you in first scout-gs encounter, second and 3rd time we were pretty alone.

 

2nd match, my first death as GS - if you watch frame by frame seconds before your clusters blew my ship up - you can notice a trace of slug that hit me from behind about second before.Then your clusters got me from behind as well, despite being fired from the front (this is how the damage works... always from the *current* direction of the attacker)

Second death wasn't you - died by some GS shot... (though I think I would die in the end anyway... got red hulled before someone else forced you away; however, dunno how longwould it take)

Finally 3rd meeting - your mistake and losing a dogfight with a GS. Laughs at you (don't take it seriously)

However, some people saw "at least 3-4" failed chases despite my GS dying only twice, so maybe I have overseen something

 

In 3rd match I was asking others to stop chasing you as well. I guess someone was either trying to make his name by 'killing GSF ace' or maybe just farming KDR .

 

And in 4th match despite our requests, I was also under good pressure (7 deaths, only 4 by your shot... the match ending score says it all)

 

So, to conclude:

 

- In 1v1 T2 scout is better than T1 GS from moderate to good amount.

- However, GS chased by one scout and unattended by other can evade for a while and take a shoot for targets of opportunity sometimes.

- in 8v8 scenario, amount of that shoots would pretty soon disrupt the scouts ability to chase GS, forcing them to hide - in best case. With voice, they could warn remaining scouts that some GS are now free (so the other scouts can disengage, hide and after regaining engines - repeat the attack) - without voice, the warning would come too late.

Thus, 8scouts isn't a 'hard counter' against 8GS.

 

***

 

"And if You failed to run before being shot down, it means You failed the chaise in the start.No more, no less"

Would the ambush scenario happen in 8v8 battle? Doubtable.

[Drakkolich]

My big problem with your conclusion is how much you are disregarding the fact that even when you kited me threw other Gunships I was still able to stay on your most of the time. The other thing is how often I'd deroost other Gunships while you were still on the move, sometimes I'd even kill them then continue chasing you.

 

See the big problem with your 8v8 scenario is you consider if 1 Scout dies then 1 Gunship is free to shoot and is just not the case. I'd say on average 1 Scout can probably keep 1.5 Gunships deroosted. This is where your argument really falls apart because even if 1-2 Scouts die the others are still stopping all the Gunships from shooting.

 

The other issue you talk about is taking pot shots here and there while running well shooting at evasion Scouts, those pot shots aren't going to do that much, even if you do hit them once you're not going to have time to kill them so minus a lucky crit it's going to take a long time for one to die to that kind of attrition.

[Bolo_Yeung]

My big problem with your conclusion is how much you are disregarding the fact that even when you kited me threw other Gunships I was still able to stay on your most of the time. The other thing is how often I'd deroost other Gunships while you were still on the move, sometimes I'd even kill them then continue chasing you.

In which game? And again which pilots?

A good scout pilot will not have much problems with keeping even 3-4 GS busy, that's for sure.

 

 

See the big problem with your 8v8 scenario is you consider if 1 Scout dies then 1 Gunship is free to shoot and is just not the case.

Assuming equal (high and above) skill and upgrades level, if two GS are more than 5-7k away from each other, this will be difficult... Possible of course, but at the same moment, GS range is much greater, so shooting at the targets of opportunity will happen more often.

I'd say on average 1 Scout can probably keep 1.5 Gunships deroosted. This is where your argument really falls apart because even if 1-2 Scouts die the others are still stopping all the Gunships from shooting.

But at the same time even chased GS will sometimes fire at other scouts; also GS that have respawned, will have few seconds of breath before a scout will go after him.

 

The other issue you talk about is taking pot shots here and there while running well shooting at evasion Scouts, those pot shots aren't going to do that much, even if you do hit them once you're not going to have time to kill them so minus a lucky crit it's going to take a long time for one to die to that kind of attrition.

 

Even a lovetap with ion rail can make scouts life much harder (by the way, imagine what would happen with 55% slow for 12 seconds... ). if the chased GS will have a little breath, the pilot gets a chance of 2-3 shots (that can disrupt another scout attack and so on...