Why the new Operations are threatening to kill the game.

[GhOsTPrOz]

im a casual player and finde this game got so easy its borring there is no more chelange like it was when Ec came out or flashpoints they are just a joke Lost Island pre nerf was briliant sm for all the players that cant lern to move out of damn circle or area dmg hm for pepole who liked the game to be a bit chelanging but after lerning tac on them they become boring to its not abouth hou dificule is the game mechanics are v easy to lern game is TOO EASY if u ask mebtw new ops on sm can be face rolled by casual players easy back in a day pug grups was more hard core than some of progresion guilds we have in game this days

 

I take it your a 10 year old idiot? Take grammar lessons please...

[FerkWork]

im a casual player and finde this game got so easy its borring there is no more chelange like it was when Ec came out or flashpoints they are just a joke Lost Island pre nerf was briliant sm for all the players that cant lern to move out of damn circle or area dmg hm for pepole who liked the game to be a bit chelanging but after lerning tac on them they become boring to its not abouth hou dificule is the game mechanics are v easy to lern game is TOO EASY if u ask mebtw new ops on sm can be face rolled by casual players easy back in a day pug grups was more hard core than some of progresion guilds we have in game this days

 

Wut

Edited April 6, 2015 by FerkWork

[Gagelish]

I take it your a 10 year old idiot? Take grammar lessons please...

 

First of all, not everyone's first language is English so try not to be an insufferable jerk about.

 

Second, perhaps you should take some grammar lessons as well considering your inability to spell, "you're" correctly.

 

Third, did you seriously make a post with nothing to contribute to the actual discussion other than a grammar insult that was, itself, grammatically flawed?

 

Now to contribute a bit to the actual discussion...

 

People keep claiming that it's impossible to bring someone still learning their role because actually maintaining 2.5k DPS on this fight isn't realistic under the circumstances. What they're not considering is that every experienced player present further lowers the DPS required of the new player. If two of your DPS can maintain a very reasonable 3.2k, and your third and fourth DPS can hit the 2.5k target, then your new player needs to pull 1.1k DPS. That's nothing, and with a group of experienced players trying to teach a new DPS the fight it's easily within reach. It's not unreasonable of the devs to expect players, even in story mode, to have a basic understanding of their class. This is not rotation mastery, this is is not even having all your skills bound, this is using skills other than your basic attack in no particular order for the duration of the fight.

 

The mechanics of the fight are not unreasonably challenging. You need to be able to differentiate between left and right, not stand in red circles (with plenty of warning time to move), and switch targets when they erupt loudly out of the ground and slam up and down making noise. Is that really too much to ask? Story mode operations should be more challenging than Flashpointa. They should require some small amount of coordination and cooperation. That's the entire point of having content that requires more players: to work with a team to tackle bigger challenges. If someone has no desire to do that, then Operations are not for them. The end.

 

The real problem isn't the required DPS, and it's not the mechanics. The real problem is people who don't think they should have to do anything. The Underlurker is buggier than I'd like and here are times when groups have wiped even though on my screen everyone was positioned correctly for the cross, but that's not what I'm talking about. I run story modes every week with a group composed of at least some, occasionally all PUGs. What separates the succesful groups from the unsuccessful ones is, without exception, a willingness to listen, learn, and actively participate.

 

I can't count the number of times I've asked before pulling Sword Squadron or The Underlurker if everyone knows the fight or if anyone needs it explained and not only do I not get a, "yes" or, "no", but I don't get any response at all. I politely ask people to respond even if only to say, "yes" and still no response. So I ready check, everyone is ready, I pull, and almost immediately it's clear that multiple people have no idea how to do the fight. So we wipe, we come back, I explain the mechanics, I ask if anyone has any questions, and again, no response whatsoever. So again we pull, and everyone is making the exact same mistakes. So we come back and I start to try to explain more clearly and, without fail, one of the biggest failures makes some snotty comment like, "zzzz bored." I ask one last time if I can answer any questions or clarify anything for anyone, no one says a thing other than the impatient failure from earlier who says, "ug just go zzzz" we wipe again and I decide I'm done being the only person putting in any effort. And I still get whispers from people afterward about what a mother$&@!?er I am for leaving.

 

I don't expect anyone to understand mechanics just from hearing them described without first seeing the fight. I fully expect us to wipe a few times (even a lot of times) as people start to get a feel for the fight. The difference between succesful groups and unsuccessful ones is that when the succesful ones wipe I get people asking me to clarify a mechanic, or taking ownership of a mistake they made, or helping someone who was next to them to understand what happened when they died. I see people who don't make the exact same mistakes they just made. They might still make some mistakes, but they're different. They're trying to learn. That's when I know we'll get it eventually and I'm happy to wipe and wipe and wipe for a group that _wants_ to learn. That's the way learning new fights goes, and I make sure everyone knows that we're right on track.

 

These fights are only impossible if people in the group are unwilling to make any effort. They don't deserve to see the new Ops, and I hope the devs never make a single move toward accommodating them. People in this thread look back on Dread Fortress and Dread Palace and they forget that it wasn't always as easy as it was after a year of runs. I came back to the game about a month before the introduction of Oricon. I learned to do Operations in Dread Fortress and Palace raiding with a group of experienced players and when they first launched story mode was hard. Tyrans and the tiles were tough. I can still remember how loud everyone cheered when we finally downed the Council after weeks of pulls. The new Operations just came out a few months ago. Providing a small challenge is a good thing that helps new players learn and grow. Catering to players with no interest in growth will only hurt this game, it won't help, and those same people complaining about how hard it is now will be whining about how easy it is then because that's what they do, they whine.

 

TL;DR - If people in the group are open to learning the new Ops, they'll pick it up quick. If not, they'll never pick it up and that's okay. Don't enable lazy players, support new ones.

[Island_Jedi]

@ Gagelish

 

So for all you're walls of text of how the game is so easy now and only fail people can not do the Ops. You are missing some important concepts. Unskilled players contribute an equal amount of revenue to skilled players. Skilled players no matter how much they say the game is easy, are not contributing anymore to the game then the unskilled players. The player base that is unskilled I can assure you greatly outnumber the player base that is skilled, so if they are finding certain boss fights too tough, pug raiding is suffering, and only guild runs or half guild runs are succeeding you have a problem.

 

EA is primarily funding this project and all they want to see is a massive players base contributing money to the game. They do not care if the player base is skilled or not! If you lose a significant portion of your casual audience because content is too tough you are only hurting your profits as a game developer. Making sure you have three tiers of content to target three tiers of players ensures your product is viable to as LARGE AN AUDIENCE as possible. The MORE people that play and pay for the game the better it will be. You want to see some amazing content you will need to see a large player base, not a niche audience of skilled players.

[Shwarzchild]

@ Gagelish

 

So for all you're walls of text of how the game is so easy now and only fail people can not do the Ops. You are missing some important concepts. Unskilled players contribute an equal amount of revenue to skilled players. Skilled players no matter how much they say the game is easy, are not contributing anymore to the game then the unskilled players. The player base that is unskilled I can assure you greatly outnumber the player base that is skilled, so if they are finding certain boss fights too tough, pug raiding is suffering, and only guild runs or half guild runs are succeeding you have a problem.

 

EA is primarily funding this project and all they want to see is a massive players base contributing money to the game. They do not care if the player base is skilled or not! If you lose a significant portion of your casual audience because content is too tough you are only hurting your profits as a game developer. Making sure you have three tiers of content to target three tiers of players ensures your product is viable to as LARGE AN AUDIENCE as possible. The MORE people that play and pay for the game the better it will be. You want to see some amazing content you will need to see a large player base, not a niche audience of skilled players.

 

 

This is true, no question. this game is kind of a niche fest though is it not? We have the 8 different stories that really kind of taylor to the solo rpg crowd. Then, we've got pvp (regardless of what people think as to it's quality) for the pvp only people. We've got gsf for pvp space enthusiasts. Strongholds for decorator enthusiasts; flashpoints for people who probably don't have time for operations, but want some semblance of group based pve content. We've even got dedicated servers for different types of gamers in general. i don't want to try to put operations into a general category that is one size fits all. I don't really think that's a correct way to think about an operation. They should be for the people who want even more coordinated, and challenging, content over what flashpoints provide. Is an operation for everyone in the game casual to skilled? Not likely. I also don't really know if we can say that just because there are probably more casual players than skilled that their contributions are equal. They may be, sure, but they may not be. I haven't seen any hard numbers about the split since they probably don't exist, but I think it's unsafe to say that everything is equal, and more safe to say that everyone is contributing to the game in some form.

 

Really though, Island is correct in that storymode ops should encourage those looking to see if it's for them to join up. Right now, it's just one fight that's become a bit too much for a pug group to handle. How to do that while also keeping end game content from feeling like level 10 content is the ultimate question. We've all agreed here, and elsewhere, that the Underlurker needs some fine tuning. Aside from him, I'm not sure we can say that the storymode ops are barriers anymore. I'm also thinking that the next patch, as it includes the 8 man gf option + ultimate coms for older ops, will close the gear gap for pug groups/ casuals and that kind of "skill inflation" even 198 comm gear would provide would end up making UL specifically much much more doable. I'm really expecting to see a very positive increase in pug raid clears after this next patch.

 

to Gagelish: I get what you're saying. A lot of people have said that hey hardmode is where the challenge should be for people, and typically I don't like that statement because it's too general. But, in your specific case you shouldn't be in story modes just like I'm not in storymode content. If you're going to be in storymode content you're probably min/ maxing which puts you at a level apart from regular casual players which takes you out of the casual definition. You are right though in the respect that it's not hard to carry someone through the content at this point, and that's kind of a sign to me that pug raids will start clearing UL more often sooner rather than later.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Shwarzchild

[Soul_of_Flames]

I completely agree with the OP.

 

In fact, I think that Hard mode Flashpoints should be rated harder than Story mode Operations.

 

My guild has been absolutely dead these past few weeks. And we have been around since launch and active the whole time. People tell me they are bored with the game, which is why they don't play.

 

There is obviously something wrong with the content. And the people who don't see this should be keeping their mouths shut, because their ignorance is going to kill the game completely.

[GabDube]

I don't think BW is wrong in having put a a learning curve in the game. They could tune down DPS requirement on Underluker and possibly make the soft enrage on walkers easier if things need to be more casual.

 

The problem with level-based MMOs is that the learning curve is dependant on the stats curve. Not matter how much you know the game, someone with better gear and a higher level is always better.

 

It should be the other way around, so that it would be possible to outplay people with better gear/higher level.

[FerkWork]

The problem with level-based MMOs is that the learning curve is dependant on the stats curve. Not matter how much you know the game, someone with better gear and a higher level is always better.

 

It should be the other way around, so that it would be possible to outplay people with better gear/higher level.

 

Most Ops are done at max level. They can potentially be better but a knowledgable person would be geared for the raid. Furthermore, Ops are not about outplaying another person it's about working together as a team to down content. If you think otherwise, then Raiding is not for you.

Edited April 6, 2015 by FerkWork

[Brxaadambombz]

I completely agree with the OP.

 

In fact, I think that Hard mode Flashpoints should be rated harder than Story mode Operations.

 

My guild has been absolutely dead these past few weeks. And we have been around since launch and active the whole time. People tell me they are bored with the game, which is why they don't play.

 

There is obviously something wrong with the content. And the people who don't see this should be keeping their mouths shut, because their ignorance is going to kill the game completely.

 

I haven't been keeping up with the thread at all, but it isn't hard to see this situation in many raiding guilds. I personally would like to see scaled versions of old operations, however that would bring up plenty of issues, and is definitely not realistic. One can dream though.

[Gagelish]

@ Gagelish

 

So for all you're walls of text of how the game is so easy now and only fail people can not do the Ops. You are missing some important concepts. Unskilled players contribute an equal amount of revenue to skilled players. Skilled players no matter how much they say the game is easy, are not contributing anymore to the game then the unskilled players. The player base that is unskilled I can assure you greatly outnumber the player base that is skilled, so if they are finding certain boss fights too tough, pug raiding is suffering, and only guild runs or half guild runs are succeeding you have a problem.

 

I always appreciate it when I take the time to read someone's entire post and then they obviously don't read mine.

 

I didn't say that Ops should not be for unskilled players. Everyone starts unskilled and I was pretty clear about that not being a problem. The problem is people who have no interest in putting in any effort whatsoever. It's not lack of skill, it's laziness. People like to pretend that story mode DF and DP were always ridiculously easy, but when they first came out they were not. They were difficult for new players (like me) and it took time, practice, and gearing before they could be beaten. Then after a few months of getting geared even those people could be dragged through. I don't see a problem with that.

 

Operations are group content. That means working (if only very loosely) as a group. I've done plenty of flashpoints where we couldn't finish because some of the players in the group refused to even acknowledge very simple mechanics. Those same people are never going to complete a story mode operation until it's made absolutely trivial by time and overgearing, but I don't think it's good for the culture of the game to cater to those players. They obviously don't care that much and they'll have a chance to be a burden on their entire team in a few months. If people want an epic Star Wars story with absolutely no effort they can pop in Episode IV.

 

Really though, Island is correct in that storymode ops should encourage those looking to see if it's for them to join up. Right now, it's just one fight that's become a bit too much for a pug group to handle. How to do that while also keeping end game content from feeling like level 10 content is the ultimate question. We've all agreed here, and elsewhere, that the Underlurker needs some fine tuning. Aside from him, I'm not sure we can say that the storymode ops are barriers anymore. I'm also thinking that the next patch, as it includes the 8 man gf option + ultimate coms for older ops, will close the gear gap for pug groups/ casuals and that kind of "skill inflation" even 198 comm gear would provide would end up making UL specifically much much more doable. I'm really expecting to see a very positive increase in pug raid clears after this next patch.

 

to Gagelish: I get what you're saying. A lot of people have said that hey hardmode is where the challenge should be for people, and typically I don't like that statement because it's too general. But, in your specific case you shouldn't be in story modes just like I'm not in storymode content. If you're going to be in storymode content you're probably min/ maxing which puts you at a level apart from regular casual players which takes you out of the casual definition. You are right though in the respect that it's not hard to carry someone through the content at this point, and that's kind of a sign to me that pug raids will start clearing UL more often sooner rather than later.

 

I'm mostly in agreement with you on all of this, but I did want to address a few things.

 

As I said above, people forget that DF and DP were also very difficult when they first came out, and I don't think that's the worst thing in the world. The biggest problem with Underlurker is the cross mechanic and it's tendency to fail a group even when everyone appears to be positioned correctly. I would be all for making the, "pass" area of the cross more generous to help because that is a frustrating and demoralizing mechanic. Beyond that though I think it's exactly as you say: the reintroduction of a healthy supply of ultimate comms will allow people to gear up more quickly and that in combination with overall familiarity rising will mean more and more groups clearing the Operation.

 

Also, I'd like to say that I absolutely belong in story mode. I'm sure I come of as a bit of an elitist ***** in this post and the last, but in reality I love helping new players because I was given a lot of help by some very talented (and patient) players when I was first learning. I try to always help new players asking for advice on the fleet, I run people through lower level flashpoints at least a few times a week, and I like bringing new players into story mode runs.

 

I enjoy helping people through an operation for their first time and I never, ever ask for achievements when forming a SM PUG. I like giving players an opportunity to run content that they might otherwise be rejected for, and I'm happy to help people through mechanics and fights they've never seen before. Like I said in my first post I'll wipe dozens of times with an inexperienced group and I'll to carry them when I can as long as they're actually interested in doing the content. I was very unskilled when I first started, I had never raided in any mmo prior to this one despite having played almost all of them. What I don't have patience for is players who won't even try, and I don't think that's wrong. I don't think the developers should cater operations to players that want to stand in one spot and spam force quake. There is plenty of content for those players. Should the developers really spend time and resources creating a separate difficulty level that is essentially standard mobs with a ton of HP? I guess for some people the answer is yes, and that's their right, but it's mine to disagree.

 

I hope this didn't come off too harshly. Let me know if there's anything I need to clarify.

[Shwarzchild]

@ Gagelish

 

You're good. I commend you for your attitude. I've kind of hit a wall in trying to help players. Lately though, I've just stopped being as accommodating. I feel bad about it, but at the same time I just don't have the patience for it. For instance I was doing a hardmode DP run with random people. Granted it's hard mode, so I might be expecting a little more from people. But, we had a dps in group who just wouldn't listen ever. He got in TS with us which was great, but every time I said focus on the monsters he'd just ignore me, and attack Bestia. So since we were already tight on dps, we'd end up having too many monsters up. Wipe. Wipe. Wipe. Finally I removed him from group which I never do to people generally...and wouldn't you know it..Got to council with virtually no issue. Almost one shotted Calphayus too which I would have freaked out about since that's a long kind of complicated fight especially with people who have never done it before Sometimes I just don't know how to help these kinds of players. You can see tons of em all over the place in raids just ignore the world. It's a huge problem, and i don't think that ultimately catering to them completely is the answer. I like opening up access to the ult comms and previous ops as the solution. The devs can only do so much I'd say. At some point it's on the player. I think, and I have no doubt you'll agree, is that with a little tweaking they'd all be fine. Really the main issue is that it's taking 4-6 months for pugs to clear content when really it should probably be about ~3. I'm not sure there is really a way to help some of those unskilled players, but for the ones who actually want to improve themselves I think we can give in and give them a small tweak to certain things.

 

 

I hope DF and DP never die by the way. I know they will soon, but man DP especially. So awesome. I missed them when they first came out, but man I still find them challenging.

[GabDube]

Most Ops are done at max level. They can potentially be better but a knowledgable person would be geared for the raid. Furthermore, Ops are not about outplaying another person it's about working together as a team to down content. If you think otherwise, then Raiding is not for you.

 

I wasn't talking about PVE specifically. I was just pointing out that variables such as gear and level do not contribute much to gameplay when the content requires you to max out everything in a limited amount of optimal setups, thus negating the whole "variable" part. As such, It might be a good idea in this scenario to just remove that superfluous variable from the equasion and give everyone a particular amount of stat points, which they could simply allocate as they see fit.

 

In my opinion, a bloster system for PVE would make the game much more interesting while preserving balance and encouraging strategic innovation for everyone's benefit.

Edited April 7, 2015 by GabDube

[Shwarzchild]

 

In my opinion, a bloster system for PVE would make the game much more interesting while preserving balance and encouraging strategic innovation for everyone's benefit.

 

There is a bolster for 16man. Or there was pre today's patch. That didn't really work.

[Brxaadambombz]

I wasn't talking about PVE specifically. I was just pointing out that variables such as gear and level do not contribute much to gameplay when the content requires you to max out everything, thus negating the whole "variable" part. As such, It might be a good idea to just remove that superfluous variable from the equasion and give people the same amount of stats, which they could simply allocate as they see fit.

 

In my opinion, a bloster system for PVE would make the game much more interesting while preserving balance and encouraging strategic innovation for everyone's benefit.

 

Then what motivation would people have to clear the content more then once? I personally dislike Ravagers, so the proposed model you give would mean I could clear it once for the achievement, then never touch it again? This would shorten the lifespan of ops would it not? As well as this, what purpose would a bolster system serve?

[FerkWork]

@ Gagelish

 

You're good. I commend you for your attitude. I've kind of hit a wall in trying to help players. Lately though, I've just stopped being as accommodating. I feel bad about it, but at the same time I just don't have the patience for it. For instance I was doing a hardmode DP run with random people. Granted it's hard mode, so I might be expecting a little more from people. But, we had a dps in group who just wouldn't listen ever. He got in TS with us which was great, but every time I said focus on the monsters he'd just ignore me, and attack Bestia. So since we were already tight on dps, we'd end up having too many monsters up. Wipe. Wipe. Wipe. Finally I removed him from group which I never do to people generally...and wouldn't you know it..Got to council with virtually no issue. Almost one shotted Calphayus too which I would have freaked out about since that's a long kind of complicated fight especially with people who have never done it before Sometimes I just don't know how to help these kinds of players. You can see tons of em all over the place in raids just ignore the world. It's a huge problem, and i don't think that ultimately catering to them completely is the answer. I like opening up access to the ult comms and previous ops as the solution. The devs can only do so much I'd say. At some point it's on the player. I think, and I have no doubt you'll agree, is that with a little tweaking they'd all be fine. Really the main issue is that it's taking 4-6 months for pugs to clear content when really it should probably be about ~3. I'm not sure there is really a way to help some of those unskilled players, but for the ones who actually want to improve themselves I think we can give in and give them a small tweak to certain things.

 

 

I hope DF and DP never die by the way. I know they will soon, but man DP especially. So awesome. I missed them when they first came out, but man I still find them challenging.

 

DF and DP will never die...

 

Well at least until I get my Wings and Rancour

 

[Gagelish]

@ Gagelish

 

You're good. I commend you for your attitude. I've kind of hit a wall in trying to help players. Lately though, I've just stopped being as accommodating. I feel bad about it, but at the same time I just don't have the patience for it. For instance I was doing a hardmode DP run with random people. Granted it's hard mode, so I might be expecting a little more from people. But, we had a dps in group who just wouldn't listen ever. He got in TS with us which was great, but every time I said focus on the monsters he'd just ignore me, and attack Bestia. So since we were already tight on dps, we'd end up having too many monsters up. Wipe. Wipe. Wipe. Finally I removed him from group which I never do to people generally...and wouldn't you know it..Got to council with virtually no issue. Almost one shotted Calphayus too which I would have freaked out about since that's a long kind of complicated fight especially with people who have never done it before Sometimes I just don't know how to help these kinds of players. You can see tons of em all over the place in raids just ignore the world. It's a huge problem, and i don't think that ultimately catering to them completely is the answer. I like opening up access to the ult comms and previous ops as the solution. The devs can only do so much I'd say. At some point it's on the player. I think, and I have no doubt you'll agree, is that with a little tweaking they'd all be fine. Really the main issue is that it's taking 4-6 months for pugs to clear content when really it should probably be about ~3. I'm not sure there is really a way to help some of those unskilled players, but for the ones who actually want to improve themselves I think we can give in and give them a small tweak to certain things.

 

 

I hope DF and DP never die by the way. I know they will soon, but man DP especially. So awesome. I missed them when they first came out, but man I still find them challenging.

 

I know exactly where you're coming from. Trying to clear content with a player that refuses to put in any effort after you've made every attempt to help them is exhausting, and when you encounter people that refuse to meet you half (or even part) way over and over again you start to lose faith in and patience for the community as a whole.

 

I have a little trick that helps restore my faith in humanity, maybe it'll help you too. When I notice myself getting frustrated and annoyed with other players I'll look in General Chat for someone politely (this is important) asking for help on a low level flash point and just run them through. If they're new to the game I also offer to answer any questions about their class, or gearing, or whatever and sometimes buy them a few pieces of orange gear off the gtn so they can start modding them. Being able to spend 30 minutes or so doing something really easy to help someone with something they couldn't do otherwise feels good, and most players are really grateful for the help. It just kind of recharges my compassion batteries.

 

I do agree that The Underlurker needs to be addressed. I think making the cross mechanic more forgiving would mean fewer deaths and fewer deaths would make the DPS requirement more reasonable, but you might be right and it might need to be tuned down a little as well. Do you think they should just lower his health? Give players a little longer before the enrage? Give the adds lower hp? The thing that I like about the fight is that the group does need to be on the ball to finish in time and it'd be a shame if that incentive to really push hard was totally lost because I think the sense of accomplishment would go with it. One thing I could see working as a kind of compromise would be to tweak the enrage. Make the enrage mechanic deal more and more damage over about 30 seconds so that groups who can't quite finish the last ~7% would be able to down the boss, but still be able to work toward downing before the boss enrages at all. If it were up to you what would you like to see changed to being the boss in line?

 

Also, DF and DP are awesome. I think they'll still get some attention from players because the mounts in NiM are so awesome. I never got my Wings of the Architect before 3.0 launched and it's my favorite mount in the game. I've tried it a few times since 3.0, and we've gotten so close on Brontes, but NiM Brontes is still pretty challenging and I've never been able to get the same group together for a second night of pulls on just Brontes. I think once that happens we'll get her down and then start doing it every week until all the group members have their own wings. Both DF and DP were great Ops.

[-Snakesan-]

Two things not really covered in this thread:

 

A casual player should not have to reference a bunch of out of game media or be forced to use third party apps in order to raid "casual" content. Live DPS/HPS metrics should be provided in game, if anything to help groups find their weak points.

 

Bolster might be causing more headaches than its worth, at least for those groups that try to rely on it. Systems like bolster create great incentive to rush head-first into more difficult content without exposing yourself to more advanced mechanics; by creating a system that bypasses this skill-check you're setting groups of folks up for a very rough trip to the med center...

 

[Shwarzchild]

Two things not really covered in this thread:

 

A casual player should not have to reference a bunch of out of game media or be forced to use third party apps in order to raid "casual" content. Live DPS/HPS metrics should be provided in game, if anything to help groups find their weak points.

 

Bolster might be causing more headaches than its worth, at least for those groups that try to rely on it. Systems like bolster create great incentive to rush head-first into more difficult content without exposing yourself to more advanced mechanics; by creating a system that bypasses this skill-check you're setting groups of folks up for a very rough trip to the med center...

 

 

I really love that built in metric idea. It wouldn't seem too difficult to implement seeing as how they have combat logging and all.

 

Your second point is really huge. I've said before that I though that the group finder, in its current form, forced people into content that they weren't prepared for just yet. I'm really hoping that with the return of ultimate coms to older ops, and a group finder back to 8, that your second point gets addressed with those changes. Fingers crossed.

[Ghisallo]

I have to agree on this. If you need an achievement to join a pug for a sm run, then you know something went wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I only want sm to be toned down a little. I am still strugling through hm and I like it

 

You only need the achieve because people don't want to be bothered sometimes with teaching a stranger every encounter. That is the problem with PUG runs...NOT that the encounters are too hard but that you will get "new" people or are not in guilds that raid. These people often stay silent for some reason (embarrassment, fear of being kicked whatever) when you ask "so does everyone know this fight?" This causes many a wipe. Many people don't want to take 2 or more hours on a SM OP so it is a cycle.

 

Raids are raids, FPs are FPs , soloing is soloing. The story modes are by far the EASIST raids I have ever done in my life. I actually hesitate to call them raids in all honesty because of this. They are more like large group FPs. There is no real reason to make them easier. If you did it would likely result in the bars of HM and Him being reduced. Why? Story modes aren't just about giving casuals (god I hate that term) a thing to do. Its where many go to learn the basic concepts of the HM. If you have too big a jump between SM and HM then you end up with issues there and the only way to fix it is to reduce the HM...which in turn results in nerfing the Him.

[AlrikFassbauer]

These people often stay silent for some reason (embarrassment, fear of being kicked whatever) when you ask "so does everyone know this fight?"

 

After reading through these SWTOR forums I'd fear to be kicked as well. Seriously.

 

Blood Hunt HM

51k Sniper: "there's no way we can do this with one undergeared dps"

Then they kick me.

 

Fits.

[GrimWulf]

Lack of no one running Flashpoints is killing it as well. When I spend 30minutes waiting as DPS in que its sad but when I switch to heal speac and spend another 30mins in que its even sadder. Finally get a 60HM pop and cant finihs it due to ppl not knowing,not caring or not geared enough or all of the above. So ppl stop doing them because the reward is not worth the time and effort.

Now that they have fixed 55HM not counting toward the weekly I dont see much point in doing those now.

[Island_Jedi]

Lack of no one running Flashpoints is killing it as well. When I spend 30minutes waiting as DPS in que its sad but when I switch to heal speac and spend another 30mins in que its even sadder. Finally get a 60HM pop and cant finihs it due to ppl not knowing,not caring or not geared enough or all of the above. So ppl stop doing them because the reward is not worth the time and effort.

Now that they have fixed 55HM not counting toward the weekly I dont see much point in doing those now.

 

I am not sure if Bioware has the passion or compentency to make flashpoints that players will enjoy and que for.

[Shwarzchild]

Lack of no one running Flashpoints is killing it as well. When I spend 30minutes waiting as DPS in que its sad but when I switch to heal speac and spend another 30mins in que its even sadder. Finally get a 60HM pop and cant finihs it due to ppl not knowing,not caring or not geared enough or all of the above. So ppl stop doing them because the reward is not worth the time and effort.

Now that they have fixed 55HM not counting toward the weekly I dont see much point in doing those now.

 

This is a true over exaggeration. Que times can be somewhat long now and then. But, I've found when I'm on my healer that que pops are fine. And, the only non puggable/ group finderable mission is blood hunt. If you are queing during non peak hours come on, you're going to be waiting a bit longer. Even during non peak times, if i que I just go to Yavin or something and do the dailies and i'll have two pops during the time it takes to get those done.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I am not sure if Bioware has the passion or compentency to make flashpoints that players will enjoy and que for.

 

Especially if some of those players call everything simply "trash" that is not NIM.

[ChickenWangs]

What I don't understand is the incompetence that I have been seeing lately in random groups. SM Ravagers can be completed in under one hour if the group is not stupid. I main dps, tanked it for the first time yesterday and had no problems. All people need to do is go to Dufly.com and look up what to do. And as someone who will occasionally lead randoms, I don't require an achievement. I simply look and see if a person has completed the content I would expect of an average raider. I look to see if there is full completion on S&V, DF, and DP. If someone has done those, then they can make it through Rav with a little explanation.

 

That being said ToS, I would quiz people on mechanics because of the absolute need to know them. Maybe SM ToS needs a tune down.