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Darth Vader - not as powerful as we thought??

LoverNoFighter

By LoverNoFighter
in STAR WARS Discussion

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Kaedusz

Kaedusz

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I always thought Vader wasn't really giving his best vs Luke and the process of redemption began some time before Luke cut his arm off.So i don't think the Luke vs Vader fight is an indication of anything in regards to lightsaber skill or power.

 

Not to mention that due to the year the movie was made it looks like that the people fighting are newbies in the dueling ring, in Kaan's academy.

Edited by Kaedusz
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  • 2 weeks later...
Beniboybling

Beniboybling

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As for Luke... there's a whole thread in this very sub-forum with the list of the most powerful force users and Luke is the #1, no questions asked, ranking him above Sith like Sidious, Vitiate, Cadeus... I mean, just look at his wookiepedia page for a short, short summary of his skills and what he did. I would recommend asking in that thread for definite and quick source (as in the exact wording and book) for Luke being the strongest force user ever as I think you will get an answer there faster than I can conjure, as my EU knowledge isn't what it used to be for me to give you that exact information. I will happily defer to those more versed than I am :)
Luke actually hasn't been outright stated in any source to be the most powerful Jedi or most powerful Force User of all time, however we have the following from George Lucas (G-Canon) that strongly suggests that this is the case:

You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

 

--George Lucas, "The Cult of Darth Vader" Rolling Stone

Luke Skywalker was destined to realise the Force potential of the Chosen One, who, as a being born of the Force, should logically have become the most powerful Force User who ever existed. Lucas also says the following:

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side..."

 

--George Lucas, "Star Wars: The Last Battle" Vanity Fair Magazine

So its G-Canon that Luke would, upon reaching his prime, become twice as powerful as Darth Sidious - confirmed to be the most powerful dark sider who ever lived. Excluding the Ones and other Force entities, I can think of no Force User (dark siders excluded by default) who can rival that ability. So I think it logically indisputable he is the strongest.

 

In regards to the Ones however, according to Leland Chee The Father is the most powerful Force User ever, I assume he refers solely to Canon continuity, and excludes Legends, so that excludes prime Luke as well. And with the post-ROTJ invalidated - taking Abeloth out of the equation - there is the potential for Luke to surpass the Ones.

 

After all, in Overlords Anakin - empowered by Mortis - manages to subdue the Son and the Daughter, simultaneously, and the Father believes he can take his place. I believe this to be the potential of the Chosen One realised.

 

Anyway, back to the point, Luke Skywalker had the potential to become the most powerful Force User who ever existed, and by the age of 23, a young man, had achieved a great deal of that potential:

By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journal and and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would have been impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star. Both are limited, Vader by his cybernetic body parts and Skywalker by his relative lack of experience dueling. But Skywalker's skill at blaster deflection is highly refined, and his lightsaber technique so superb that he is able to duel the Dark Lord on even footing - and finally able to defeat a man who is a powerful living product of the ancient Jedi sword traditions from time immemorial. Such an achievement with little formal training is a testament to Skywalker's innate abilities and instinctive skill. Tremendously strong with the Force, Skywalker never crosses the line into Sith hatefulness and ceases his attack immediately upon rendering his foe helpless - an even more impressive demonstration of self-mastery than his lightsaber skills.

 

--Taken from Star Wars Insider 62: Fightsaber

I'd definitely say that by the time of ROTJ, Luke Skywalker was very much a full-fledged Jedi Knight, and would most likely have been more than a match of Anakin Skywalker and his contemporaries.

 

That was a bit of lengthy explanation, but hopefully informative, and thanks for the vote of confidence!

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yamashingen

yamashingen

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I kinda see point in what he/she is trying to say. If you consider the fact extended universe is scraped and just solely focus on the movies. It Made no sense to me either even if i count the fact their were legion of 501st with Vader at the sacking of the temple, need i remind there was considerable size of Jedi still left in the temple granted not all were level of Jedi council members but still no push over. far as fight between Luke i could chuck that off to fact well in words of Vader " i am you daddy" no matter how evil deep down he loved him.

 

 

And I am sorry guys Vader is powerful but not the most powerful. Far as that chosen one bs goes even Yoda said to take it as grain of salt. And if i just focus on movies since rest of extended universe have been scrapped. than through out the movie as Vader he only really fought against one true Jedi and that was old obi, and proto-Jedi Luke proto because never did become full Jedi.

 

ps

books don't matter focus only on the movies, because this saga started and after scrapping of extended universe ended at the movies.

Edited by yamashingen
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Ghisallo

Ghisallo

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I would still argue...with the creation of Legends, that the old G-Canon stands because that is the very essence of what the movies and TCW is all about. So if George says Anakin would have been the most powerful but being borged made him less...it is what it is.
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xeNNNNN

xeNNNNN

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He's the chosen one.

 

thats kind of redundant.

 

hes the chosen one in the sense that he was created to restore balance at a specific time and date namely when he throws the emperor down the shoot ... at least thats the only logical way to look at it.

 

as for being powerful in general he was but he is overrated in that sense because of the whole "chosen one" nonsense.

 

he had a massive mediclorian count but it seems he was never fully able to focus all that energy and power and with him being turned half machine too he practically ended up being much weaker than he could of been.

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Ghisallo

Ghisallo

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thats kind of redundant.

 

hes the chosen one in the sense that he was created to restore balance at a specific time and date namely when he throws the emperor down the shoot ... at least thats the only logical way to look at it.

 

as for being powerful in general he was but he is overrated in that sense because of the whole "chosen one" nonsense.

 

he had a massive mediclorian count but it seems he was never fully able to focus all that energy and power and with him being turned half machine too he practically ended up being much weaker than he could of been.

 

See that's the problem with kids these days. They do not understand Myth. People need to actually under stand that Lucas was intentionally trying to recreate the ancient myths in SW. There you will see "Chosen ones" whose job it is to produce or lay the ground work for the true savior.... where a Chosen One failed and so his descendant then became the Savior etc. A good primer is pretty much any of the works of Joseph Campbell but I would suggest starting with "The Hero of a Thousand Faces". Episodes IV through VI almost follow that one like a damn script.

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Kunovega

Kunovega

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No, if you read the book you actually see how during the beginning of their duel Vader realizes Luke is MUCH stronger and has improved in his skills A LOT since Bespin, so he realizes he has to go all out. Luke beat him straight up because he was simply stronger by the time RoJ came around.

 

You have to remember that often the "Chosen One" lays down the foundation for the more powerful one that is to come after them.

 

And really the prophecy of "the chosen one" doesn't even state Vader would be the most powerful, most skilled, or most anything. Only that he would be the one to finish off the Sith and he did.

 

Any power or skill he has really has nothing to do with the fact that he was simply the one chosen by prophecy to kill the emperor.

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tunewalker

tunewalker

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Well even if he doesnt do much (which I doubt....) there is still The Aftermath Book Trilogy, as well as the Force Awaken Comics that are coming out :D.

 

Edit: did any one pick up Luke Skywalker: weapon of the Jedi?

Edited by tunewalker
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gsummers

gsummers

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I think of it in terms of birthright. Anakin had the birthright to be the greatest Jedi ever. However, due to bad decisions, he forfeited his birthright. As a broken shell of man kept alive by a mobile life support system, he just could never become what he had been destined to become. In the end, by making good choices, he is able to fulfill his destiny, though at a much higher cost (his life), than it probably would have been had he just made good choices in the first place.
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Wolfninjajedi

Wolfninjajedi

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Well even if he doesnt do much (which I doubt....) there is still The Aftermath Book Trilogy, as well as the Force Awaken Comics that are coming out :D.

 

Edit: did any one pick up Luke Skywalker: weapon of the Jedi?

 

That novel ain't out till September. :p Although will be interesting to see his first duel using Anakin's lightsaber, especially before his training with Yoda.

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