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Darth Vader - not as powerful as we thought??


LoverNoFighter

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He loses against Obi -Wan who was a Jedi Master.

As a Darth, he loses to Luke Skywalker who was a Knight at the time.

How he supposedly managed to kill the Jedi Knights and Masters in the Jedi temple seems a bit far fetched.

 

Obi-wan - Greatest practicioner of Soresu to have ever existed.

Luke Skywalker - Most powerful force user to have ever existed.

 

/thread

Edited by Yojiro
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Source?

 

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him

"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad—or Yoda's mastery of Ataro—"

Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.

"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented alethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?"

"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really—"

"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."

Here's one for Obi-Wan. I don't have one for Luke, but it's well known to be true.

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....Right....he's one of the most powerful Sith in all of Star Wars and in the new canon, he's pretty much already shown that too.

 

But anyway....

 

1. He lost to Obi-Wan because he was hindered by his emotional state, that and the fact Obi-Wan and Anakin sparred constantly, so Obi-Wan knew how Anakin fought hence why he wasn't rolfstomped. The only reason Obi-Wan won, was because he took a gamble on the cliffside and Anakin was too blinded by his rage.

 

2. For Luke, they were actually at an impass and he only won due to Force rage amping him to the point where he could physically overpower him in their duel.

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Here's one for Obi-Wan. I don't have one for Luke, but it's well known to be true.

 

Thank you cs_zoltan, I was gonna grab that exact quote for Obi-wan. And wolfninjajedi also adds good points. That fight has a lot of context going into it that need to be looked at.

 

As for Luke... there's a whole thread in this very sub-forum with the list of the most powerful force users and Luke is the #1, no questions asked, ranking him above Sith like Sidious, Vitiate, Cadeus... I mean, just look at his wookiepedia page for a short, short summary of his skills and what he did. I would recommend asking in that thread for definite and quick source (as in the exact wording and book) for Luke being the strongest force user ever as I think you will get an answer there faster than I can conjure, as my EU knowledge isn't what it used to be for me to give you that exact information. I will happily defer to those more versed than I am :)

 

Also, one should remember that though Anakin had the potential to become what Luke later became, he did not become such. Just he because he lost two fights against two of the most important characters in the Mythos doesn't mean you can discard him as "weaker than previously thought".

Edited by Yojiro
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Thank you cs_zoltan, I was gonna grab that exact quote for Obi-wan. And wolfninjajedi also adds good points. That fight has a lot of context going into it that need to be looked at.

 

As for Luke... there's a whole thread in this very sub-forum with the list of the most powerful force users and Luke is the #1, no questions asked, ranking him above Sith like Sidious, Vitiate, Cadeus... I mean, just look at his wookiepedia page for a short, short summary of his skills and what he did. I would recommend asking in that thread for definite and quick source (as in the exact wording and book) for Luke being the strongest force user ever as I think you will get an answer there faster than I can conjure, as my EU knowledge isn't what it used to be for me to give you that exact information. I will happily defer to those more versed than I am :)

 

Also, one should remember that though Anakin had the potential to become what Luke later became, he did not become such. Just he because he lost two fights against two of the most important characters in the Mythos doesn't mean you can discard him as "weaker than previously thought".

Np :)

Also I knew those, I just didn't find and exact quote from a canon source.

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Wow. Where did you guys see Darth Vader? I'd like to get a screen shot with him since, you know, this is a forum for a game that he...ummm...doesn't appear in....

 

Correct, and this is the SUBFORUM for talking about ALL THINGS Star Wars related, that DOESNT have to do with the game, if you want game specific content check ANY OTHER part of the forums.

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Wow. Where did you guys see Darth Vader? I'd like to get a screen shot with him since, you know, this is a forum for a game that he...ummm...doesn't appear in....

 

Orly?

 

Welcome to the STAR WARS discussion Forum! This forum exists so that Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ community members can discuss the larger STAR WARS galaxy, including the movies, books, comics, and other video games.
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He loses against Obi -Wan who was a Jedi Master.

As a Darth, he loses to Luke Skywalker who was a Knight at the time.

How he supposedly managed to kill the Jedi Knights and Masters in the Jedi temple seems a bit far fetched.

 

Here's an idea of how good rebellion era luke skywalker was.

 

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/rebellion-luke-skywalker-respect-thread-incomplete-1635784/

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Thank you. :)

 

No problem and if you want some vader feats..

 

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/dccomicsrule2011/blog/a-darth-vader-eu-tourney-respect-thread/93314/

 

Regardless original poster you must understand that the original movies are very old. Choreography has improved since then as has special effects. Luke Skywalker wasn't some "mere" knight. He was the son of the chosen one with practically unlimited potential. Some of the things he's done in the EU after ROTJ are things like.. moving faster than the eye can see, manipulating a black hole, walking on lava, controlling the millenium falcon and it's guns with the force alone. He's tore down a temple with the force before building it back up again along with a whole lot more.

 

The link I provided that I was thanked for was Luke Skywalker up to ROTJ. He was already a power house by ROTJ.

Edited by Rhyltran
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No problem and if you want some vader feats..

 

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/dccomicsrule2011/blog/a-darth-vader-eu-tourney-respect-thread/93314/

 

Regardless original poster you must understand that the original movies are very old. Choreography has improved since then as has special effects. Luke Skywalker wasn't some "mere" knight. He was the son of the chosen one with practically unlimited potential. Some of the things he's done in the EU after ROTJ are things like.. moving faster than the eye can see, manipulating a black hole, walking on lava, controlling the millenium falcon and it's guns with the force alone. He's tore down a temple with the force before building it back up again along with a whole lot more.

 

The link I provided that I was thanked for was Luke Skywalker up to ROTJ. He was already a power house by ROTJ.

 

Darth Caedus, for example, is way more powerful than Vader, and has the ability to deflect (or was it outright tank?) Turbolaser fire. And Luke is still stronger than him.

Edited by Yojiro
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After seeing ROTS, I came to the belief that Darth Vader is a mere puppet in Darth Sidious' hands.

 

Being emotionally manipulated doesn't mean he's weaker in ability.

 

Look at Dooku and Windu, for example. Extremely powerful Jedi and the best duelists of their time but both were still manipulated by Sidious.

 

Hell, even Yoda was duped!

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Vader & Luke-I feel like Vader didn't have it in himself to actually kill his own son and his hesitation allowed Luke to get the upper hand.

 

No, if you read the book you actually see how during the beginning of their duel Vader realizes Luke is MUCH stronger and has improved in his skills A LOT since Bespin, so he realizes he has to go all out. Luke beat him straight up because he was simply stronger by the time RoJ came around.

 

You have to remember that often the "Chosen One" lays down the foundation for the more powerful one that is to come after them.

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No, if you read the book you actually see how during the beginning of their duel Vader realizes Luke is MUCH stronger and has improved in his skills A LOT since Bespin, so he realizes he has to go all out. Luke beat him straight up because he was simply stronger by the time RoJ came around.

 

You have to remember that often the "Chosen One" lays down the foundation for the more powerful one that is to come after them.

 

Well it was more his rage that Luke beat him.

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Well, Vader himself only killed some of the Jedi, pre-armor. He sacked the temple, but he had a legion of troops with him as well. They showed that Jedi can't block -every- blaster bolt when they're mass fired upon (Poor Ki-adi Mundi). He took out a squad of younglings without a second thought, and they're not ninjas at that age.

 

After the armor, he's lost three limbs and thanks to Dooku, most of a fourth. He's also severely burned and needs help breathing. Thought 70s swordfight choreography was stiff, I'd just as soon attribute that to him being less flexible as a machine and essentially disabled. I do wonder how many full blown Jedi he could take out as post-armor Vader.

 

Luckily, he didn't have to prove himself against too many Jedi after the fact, and if he did, I imagine he had the help of the 501st, just like when he sacked the temple. Yoda and Obi-Wan pretty much confirm that farmboy Luke ends up being the last operating Jedi in the universe, and neither one had time to train them as long and deeply as they hoped. Read what you will into that.

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He can take out a lot of Jedi even post suit, it's shown in the EU.

 

Although I'm trying to figure out exactly, where people get this notion that the OT dueling was stiff or not very fast.

 

....Yeah if you compare it to the PT, but the duels in the OT are not slow at a snails pace like many believe. There were at times, very fast attacks, agility, speed etc. In particular instances, you could even say some of the OT duels were very much like the PT ones.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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He loses against Obi -Wan who was a Jedi Master.

As a Darth, he loses to Luke Skywalker who was a Knight at the time.

How he supposedly managed to kill the Jedi Knights and Masters in the Jedi temple seems a bit far fetched.

 

I think at the time when the movies were first made he was meant to be amazingly power, but since then technology and the whole concept has improved meaning many characters created later actually seem far most powerful. :)

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