Group content runs differently than when I started

[calypsissmexy]

Back when I first started on the progenitor, group content was played in a very structured way. Almost every encounter involved some CC and target marking.

 

Now, every pug I join just wants to faceroll through content. I rarely see CC used and I almost never see markers except to point out an objective elite (we gotta kill that guy for bonus).

 

Did I just have an atypical experience back then or has something changed? Have tacticals created this expectation that content should be a faceroll? Of is it something else?

[Reno_Tarshil]

Spam that AoE and drive on.

[Torvai]

Spam that AoE and drive on.

 

^This

Especially since 3.0 pretty much all classes have recieved massive aoe damage buffs, so it's easier and faster most of the time to just aoe and go on.

[Heat-Wave]

Did I just have an atypical experience back then or has something changed? Have tacticals created this expectation that content should be a faceroll? Of is it something else?

 

I tend to agree with you... The OP and FP in the launch game with the gear we had at the time, far more required this sort of thing than we need today. I missed launch by three weeks, started at 1.1, but I do remember actually using CC and such back then far more, today it is more just "smash stuff", other than OPs of course, but I only run those with guildies.

 

I think several things caused this...

 

1. F2P - this brought in a bunch of new players that have a different view of games than people who buy a $60 box and sub at $15/month have. They might become committed players and might even sub, but a whole lot of them don't take it so seriously due to lack of investment.

 

2. Tactical FP - this has caused a lot of people to see group content the same way they see leveling content, just "me see, me smash, me kill". KDY is terrible in this regard, this weekend I leveled a new Sage, I queued for FP several times... The SM FP that launched with the game popped exactly twice all weekend. KDY popped almost instantly every time I queued.

 

3. CM - This has caused a focus on casual players that did not exist when the game launched. Now Bioware wants people to come in and stay and enjoy themselves. To "feel" challenged without actually "being" challenged. That way they buy lots of shinies on the CM to make their toons look nice.

[Darth_Wicked]

"me see, me smash, me die".

 

Fixed.

 

The best part is one of those wankers taking issue with no one healing him.

When no one in the group is an actual healer. Guess he missed that too.

 

[llayles]

Kuat Drive Yards trains people to spam AOEs and rush the boss.

[Heat-Wave]

Fixed.

 

The best part is one of those wankers taking issue with no one healing him.

When no one in the group is an actual healer. Guess he missed that too.

 

Well that too...

 

I was referring to his mindset, not what he actually was accomplishing... since during the leveling process, it does work...

[bdatt]

1. F2P - this brought in a bunch of new players that have a different view of games than people who buy a $60 box and sub at $15/month have. They might become committed players and might even sub, but a whole lot of them don't take it so seriously due to lack of investment.

 

2. Tactical FP - this has caused a lot of people to see group content the same way they see leveling content, just "me see, me smash, me kill". KDY is terrible in this regard, this weekend I leveled a new Sage, I queued for FP several times... The SM FP that launched with the game popped exactly twice all weekend. KDY popped almost instantly every time I queued.

 

3. CM - This has caused a focus on casual players that did not exist when the game launched. Now Bioware wants people to come in and stay and enjoy themselves. To "feel" challenged without actually "being" challenged. That way they buy lots of shinies on the CM to make their toons look nice.

 

None of this has anything to do with the OPs question.

 

The developers decided trash is now only a time sink, and no longer needs coordination. The only trash coordination I can think of in current Ops is to focus and interrupt the Revanite Zealots in ToS who will one shot someone if you don't.

[Heat-Wave]

None of this has anything to do with the OPs question.

 

The developers decided trash is now only a time sink, and no longer needs coordination. The only trash coordination I can think of in current Ops is to focus and interrupt the Revanite Zealots in ToS who will one shot someone if you don't.

 

Actually, I disagree... those three reasons are WHY Bioware has decided trash is only a time sink. Even the new ops are largely "don't stand in colors on the ground and know your kill order".

 

Ok, ok, the bosses require at least SOME knowledge, but frankly, how much really? Ravagers, the final boss with the bird? Just keep the bird in the corner (retaunt when it runs away and the buff goes off), then burn the girl, then burn the bird. Then the second stage, stay out of stupid and burn the boss, trying to not be stupid when he takes a hostage (but even if you ignore that and accept the deaths, it is still easy to clear.

 

I found TFB and S&V far more interesting than the two new ones, IMHO...

 

DF/DP were also great...

[Jerba]

You have to keep in mind that the game has also changed a lot since then. Now we have damage meters, more quickslots and a much more informative UI.

 

I remember running Lost Island HM at level 55 with no gear to get the vanilla feeling back. You have around 14k hitpoints. Many of the trash groups have one or two snipers that deal 12k damage if their cast does not get interrupted.

This is really a basic mechanic, but back then, you were new to the game and players were swamped with too much to look out for, so it was easier to mezz a mob than to interrupt or use your stun.

 

In addition, since the introduction of damage meters, everyone is able to maximize their DPS. Back then, it was just a matter of spamming your buttons and doing your rotation, but you didn't really know if you actually did a lot of damage.

 

I agree that KDY plays a big part in the inability of new players. Back then, if you were level 50, you would have probably run a flashpoint and known what tank/healer/DPS means because during leveling, the healer has no good abilities and bad gear so he can't heal away every mistake and it is important to follow the triinity.

Now, you can hit max level without knowing what trinitiy means. As long as every veteran player is willing to explain what new players are doing wrong, and new players are willing to learn, this should not be a problem, but unfortunately I've seen enough examples of both.

 

I don't remember ever mezzing a trash mob since 2.0. (unless to sleep a mob so we could walk by that group) When 2.0 came out, the third trash group in Hammer Station was hitting hard, so we'd usually stun one of the droids, but that was it I think, and a few months later, everyone had enough gear that we no longer had to stun it.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Jerba

[GopherLuV]

Run some of them in HM then... If it's that easy to you....

 

 

Tacticals are what made people not care in group content IMO.. Also yes, the amazing buff to Godquake has made trash pulls basically everyone kick back, tanks aoe taunt and sages spam Godquake.. few seconds later, move on..

 

I know of two things I see get marked... Sawbones in ravagers and the Zealots in ToS.. sawbones heal, and zealots one shot with a cast.. other than them theres no real reason to mark stuff... can't speak for the FPs since I rarely run them.. absolutely no reward for completing a rather difficult FP...

Edited February 17, 2015 by GopherLuV

[Mithros]

I have tried to stun targets, but often that just seems to be a marker for someone else to attack that target.

 

I was running a heroic a couple weeks ago and every time I would stun a target before the fighting began, and every time the tank would then jump to that very enemy and start fighting.

 

Things went better after we kicked the tank, and that's not how it's supposed to work.

[Jerba]

Also, in the context of this thread, I think it's worth mentioning the concept of "chain pulling".

 

What you are describing, waiting before every trash group, figuring out which mobs to stun and which ones to attack first, is the exact opposite of chain pulling.

In chain pulling, the tank pulls group after group without stopping, and the DPS AoE everything down. It only works if the group is good and you don't have a sage healer who doesn't know how to manage his force, but otherwise, it makes for a very enjoyable experience if the tank is able to set the right pace.

 

I've done this ony my tank a lot with the 55 HM flashpoints shortly before 3.0, and I believe this is actually standard practice in WoW where the dungeons have a lot of weak mobs. I guess one could say that by giving classes more AoE, they made SWTOR more like WoW, but I'm not sure if that's true.

 

See also the thread Why don't people like chain pulling??, it is ironic how contrasting it is to this thread.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Jerba

[GopherLuV]

Yea, chain pulling is a huge time saver in between bosses when your trying to cruise through the content quickly to move to something else.. in ToS it's kinda common place (in certain groups that is...).. Ravagers is a bit harder since many of the groups have stupid ads that just sit there and snipe you from 40+ meters away...

[calypsissmexy]

Also, in the context of this thread, I think it's worth mentioning the concept of "chain pulling".

 

What you are describing, waiting before every trash group, figuring out which mobs to stun and which ones to attack first, is the exact opposite of chain pulling.

In chain pulling, the tank pulls group after group without stopping, and the DPS AoE everything down. It only works if the group is good and you don't have a sage healer who doesn't know how to manage his force, but otherwise, it makes for a very enjoyable experience if the tank is able to set the right pace.

 

I've done this ony my tank a lot with the 55 HM flashpoints shortly before 3.0, and I believe this is actually standard practice in WoW where the dungeons have a lot of weak mobs. I guess one could say that by giving classes more AoE, they made SWTOR more like WoW, but I'm not sure if that's true.

 

See also the thread Why don't people like chain pulling??, it is ironic how contrasting it is to this thread.

 

I'm not opposed to chain pulling, but in a pug...it can just be a wipe fest or really piss people off if they aren't informed that's the rule of the day.

 

In tacticals, idiots do it when everyone is DPS so naturally someone wipes because no one is throwing heals or bubbles ("What's the point of throwing bubbles if it's off spec?" is something I've had a

say to me O.O <.<).

 

No doubt a group with good communication and awareness of their place in the chain, it can be fine. I've done it with guildies, but a pug I just groan at the repair costs I will be paying on my DPS melee cause she will be left to die as her defensive cooldowns are all popped after a couple mobs and no one is doing anything to mitigate cause yolo chainz!