TX_Angel Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The "actual" FPs. What would those be? The Story Mode FP up to lvl 50... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suromir Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 You people are so funny... ..Yes "stupid" people have always existed. There are idiots, bads, etc, in EVERYTHING we do in life..be that in a video game, or something in the "real world" That said...Tacticals are, in FACT, making people even dumber...and reinforcing the "bad" in the bads... Seeing people STILL using knockbacks in a group setting (esp as an openning attack) has gotten WAY worse. General overall presence of stupid/bad behavior/playstyles has indeed gone up. you only have to....y'know...PAY ATTENTION...to see this. Been playing since open beta...and with the introduction of tacticals the "bads" ratio has gone up. So yah, nice try at counter-arguments...No the tacticals didn't all-of-a-sudden bring bads in the game...but they have definitely reinforced and multiplied them. Again, all you have to do is pay attention to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foambreaker Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Trust me, they were stupid before tacticals existed too. Tacticals made them think stupid if ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabethchase Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Why would you even begin a 60 HM FP with a fake tank? You should have shamed him immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) trust me, they were stupid before tacticals existed too. OP, tacticals don't make people stupid. They just make stupid people get to max level without ever becoming not-stupid. Ha! Edited February 15, 2015 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snean Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Try The False Emperor on SM with a group of 4 lvl 50 DPS toons in 140 purple and let me know how well it works out? Lol ... i done it in hm with 108-112 gear ... it was chalenge. 140 overgear for this fp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottoattack Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Trust me, they were stupid before tacticals existed too. Yes, but FPs are supposed to be a bridge in difficulty between solo game play and operations (among other things). Tactical FPs lack any "tactics," or understanding game mechanics. Add to that lack of challenge and reward they are completely useless aside from some story content which you run 1-2 times and never run again. Complete waste of development time due to lack or reliability. Edited February 16, 2015 by Ottoattack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iKlone Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 You got it backwards bud. Tactical FPs are the result of stupid players. Also, see: Everything WoW has done in the past 6 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Do you? Do you really learn them? I have multiple tanks, I didn't learn squat about tanking from the leveling process... it was just smash everything... once I got to lvl 50, then 55, then I started learning about tanking... And I think that is the problem... The 1-50 story mode of leveling doesn't teach anything about how to end game play in HM FP or OPs. No you don't, you're 100% right. Some players need to, but no decent player does. The only people who believe that are either bad players or control freaks imo. You learn when it counts, after you have all your skills, not before. Learning comes from experience, something you don't get during your solo leveling experience with a lackluster companion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 The jump from Tacticals to HM FP's is far greater than the jump from regular FP's to HM FP's was prior to the advent of Tacticals. When you design FP's to be done without 2 legs of the trinity, you have to cut corners. High DPS will be the tank but since they can't mitigate damage like a tank the mobs can't put out the types of damage you would normally expect. No healer except for clickable "heal stations" also drives design into easy mode. Face it, Tacticals exist because there aren't enough tanks and healers for all the DPS and EA/BW hasn't figured out how to cross-server queue yet. Add in the fact that FP's are 4 players instead of 5 and you have DPS left hanging in the breeze waiting for a tank or a healer. Of course you are going to get DPS in DPS spec queuing as Tanks and this will continue until EA/BW forces players into a role based on the spec they are using when they queue. With the removal of skill trees, there is no reason why roles aren't automatically based on the players spec when they queue. Tacticals seem to me to be nothing more than band-aids covering up the fact that this game has far too many game design issues, the least of which is the 4 man FP design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 The jump from Tacticals to HM FP's is far greater than the jump from regular FP's to HM FP's was prior to the advent of Tacticals. You made me agree with you. You'll pay for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 You made me agree with you. You'll pay for this. That explains the chill outside, it finally froze over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightSaberAddiCt Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Why would you even begin a 60 HM FP with a fake tank? You should have shamed him immediately. Didnt realize it until there was absolutely no aggro control, then I thought to inspect him. What dps juggs, especially in GFs dont think to realize is that you cant pull that crap off in 60 HM FPs, especially the newer ones. Guess they dont want to accept is that they need the boosted aggro, shields and dmg mitigation. To exp3ct a healer to heal through that is just stupid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Lol ... i done it in hm with 108-112 gear ... it was chalenge. 140 overgear for this fp. With DPS only? No tank, no healer, and your toon level at 50? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyx Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I've been moonlighting in FFXIV lately, so i bring up an example from that game: during part of the end game story-line, you are forced to run through what they call "guildhests". These are simple 4 man operations that are very small, and are specifically designed to teach you group mechanics. As an example, the first one (at level 10...they scale your level in that game, so even if you go in at 50, your a lvl 10 in skills and stats), you have to work on dealing with and controlling groups of mobs without excessively pulling aggro. It's not perfect, but it goes a long ways towards teaching people the basic group mechanics. and they are available from lvl 10 onward. So by the time you get to the endgame group content, you have no excuse to NOT know your role (knowing the dungeon is a different story). IMO, This is what the Tacticals should really be. they should lead players through, forcing them to engage in group tactics in a learning fashion. OR....we should have a learning set of Tacticals, DESIGNED to emphasize specific group actions, with training points along the way. Instead, as many have stated in this thread, what we have is a UN-TRAINING tool. people are taught to be lazy and not care about role...when in HM runs (and Ops) roles are critical. SWTOR can and should learn from other games, just as other games should learn from SWTOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turshek Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 No you don't, you're 100% right. Some players need to, but no decent player does. The only people who believe that are either bad players or control freaks imo. You learn when it counts, after you have all your skills, not before. Learning comes from experience, something you don't get during your solo leveling experience with a lackluster companion. From the POV of a good player, you're right, there's not much to learn from leveling. That said, leveling is not really for them, it's made for bad players and people with no experience with the genre. Sure the game doesn't teach them that much but it still does (and yes, some will never learn) BW should increase XP/rewards from flashpoints/heroics to lead more people to do them while leveling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Everything I learned about my characters I learned before I gained the next level after obtaining a new skill. While there were a few occasions outside of the story quests where I learned that some mob abilities need to be interrupted, or that CC'ing one strong mob while dealing with another is smart, for the most part everything I needed to know about a particular class was covered in the Story Quest lines. Tacticals aren't making players stupid, they are making them lazy. When every fight is a "spank, no tank" with minimal mechanics that don't really have consequences for failure, players start to think they'll all be like that and suffer the inevitable "rude awakening" when they first step foot into the HM version of the old tacticals. And let's be frank here, 12x xp didn't have any effect on player ability. 2x xp doesn't either. In reality, if a player hasn't figured it out in a few hours of game play they aren't going to figure it out at all. All 12x xp does is takes the tedium out of leveling for the umpteenth time. For new players that took advantage of it, the only thing they missed are some nice stories that grow old after you've done them a few times...the same way re-runs quickly grow old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turshek Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 And let's be frank here, 12x xp didn't have any effect on player ability. 2x xp doesn't either. In reality, if a player hasn't figured it out in a few hours of game play they aren't going to figure it out at all. All 12x xp does is takes the tedium out of leveling for the umpteenth time. For new players that took advantage of it, the only thing they missed are some nice stories that grow old after you've done them a few times...the same way re-runs quickly grow old. I completely disagree here. 12x XP, 2x XP or any means to reduce leveling always mean worse players if you check a big group. Again, good players won't learn much but bad ones more, sometimes. There's a saying "Pratice makes perfect", some people need 1 hour to understand their class, some 5 hours, some 10, some never, some people know they have a skill they could use but forget to use it the first 10 times but use it the next time, for others it's more or less... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I've been moonlighting in FFXIV lately, so i bring up an example from that game: during part of the end game story-line, you are forced to run through what they call "guildhests". These are simple 4 man operations that are very small, and are specifically designed to teach you group mechanics. As an example, the first one (at level 10...they scale your level in that game, so even if you go in at 50, your a lvl 10 in skills and stats), you have to work on dealing with and controlling groups of mobs without excessively pulling aggro. It's not perfect, but it goes a long ways towards teaching people the basic group mechanics. and they are available from lvl 10 onward. So by the time you get to the endgame group content, you have no excuse to NOT know your role (knowing the dungeon is a different story). IMO, This is what the Tacticals should really be. they should lead players through, forcing them to engage in group tactics in a learning fashion. OR....we should have a learning set of Tacticals, DESIGNED to emphasize specific group actions, with training points along the way. Instead, as many have stated in this thread, what we have is a UN-TRAINING tool. people are taught to be lazy and not care about role...when in HM runs (and Ops) roles are critical. SWTOR can and should learn from other games, just as other games should learn from SWTOR. That isn't what tacticals are at all, but the SM FP from lvl 50 down to 15 are... I think it is a shame how little those are run anymore, KDY torpedoed what little was done in them. I did get a mando Raiders last night, only because of conquests I'm sure, beyond that, I rarely see anyone queue for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XiamaraSimi Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Seeing people STILL using knockbacks in a group setting (esp as an openning attack) has gotten WAY worse. General overall presence of stupid/bad behavior/playstyles has indeed gone up. Nothing like being grouped with someone that makes companion AI look smart... at least i can turn off my comps kb (Or put them on passive for a few seconds so they step out of the stupid zone), mouth breathers keep doing it even when asked not to... Edited February 16, 2015 by XiamaraSimi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightSaberAddiCt Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Yeah after reading the comments, I will edit my previous statement. It doesnt make players stupid, it just reinforces stupid players bad habits. I guess when a game tries to cater to the lowest denominator, it causes the issues we all obviously have found ourselves in, being stuck in a HM FP with someone that isnt even smart enough to get out of red rings of stupid. I guess that is the result of catering to players that never group for heroics, or much group content to begin with, then they go into a tactical and think hey this is easy. If you ask me, BW made a mistake with this, because instead of introducing a casual player to proper group mechanics, they will be so blasted by the other players because of their dumb moves, that they will not likely try again. I really think players that never group up in FPs while leveling, especially a casual player, they are missing out on alot Of cool stuff, not to mention open themselves up to alotmof grief when they eventually get around to it at higher levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TX_Angel Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 As a side note, even the tacticals get people in them that... shall we say... don't belong there... Last night I was leveling an alt, was at lvl 55 and the tactical version of Assault on Tython popped... All of us DPS, but that's fine, it is designed for that... Three of us were over 30k health, but the fourth player? 17k. Was still in a lot of 41 and 49 gear, a few bits even lower than that... Now I totally get that people don't hit the next level and go BiS right away, that's fine... but really? Not even to be in 140 purples? Worse than that, at lvl 55? (actually, he was lvl 56). That is just downright lazy... we of course told him that he wasn't nearly well geared enough for it, he said, "oh, I've been playing for hours now, I'm fine", and he runs off to the first trash mob and attacks. I suspect he was on Makeb and using bolster to level, hit 55 (or 56 really) and queued up, and there he was, in his mid 40's leveling gear... (either that, or doing KDY over and over, but the gear looked like what you'd start Makeb with) After he died, he rezed at med center (which was only like 75 meters back of course), and runs forward and does it again. The three of us are watching this with amusement. After he died the second time, he wanted to know why we weren't attacking. We again pointed out that he was not geared for this and needed to go get into at least 140 purples or 148 blues and come back and try again. He left in a huff. "Unreachable, unteachable..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XiamaraSimi Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) It doesnt help that being a Star Wars game it draws in -all kinds- of people that have never played a MMO before. I also think there is a chunk of CoD kiddies who are used to farting around in co-op maps doing their own thing and not caring if they arent actually contributing. (These are the ones who refuse to listen to anything, be it asking them to not facepull/attack every mob they see, not to knock all the grouped mobs outbof the AoE, que as tanks/heals when not set up/geared to do so) The "carry me" mentality in this game is off the charts though. Edited February 17, 2015 by XiamaraSimi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I completely disagree here. 12x XP, 2x XP or any means to reduce leveling always mean worse players if you check a big group. Again, good players won't learn much but bad ones more, sometimes. There's a saying "Pratice makes perfect", some people need 1 hour to understand their class, some 5 hours, some 10, some never, some people know they have a skill they could use but forget to use it the first 10 times but use it the next time, for others it's more or less... The only time reduced leveling systems will introduce bad players into end game is if those players have zero experience with MMO's in general. Being "Star Wars" means that this game will tend to draw in players who otherwise wouldn't MMO, but anyone with a modicum of MMO experience can L2P through 12x xp very easily. I'd agree with practice makes perfect if leveling didn't involve practicing bad end game habits...pew pew until mob is dead is really all you learn while leveling. Very few real mechanics are introduced while leveling, most of those are learned in end game where mechanics require you to use more than just your "pew pew" abilities. This is where tactical flash points are ruining this game in general and new players in particular. A new player who is just entering end game through tacticals and then makes the leap to hard modes without an intermediate step between the two hasn't learned enough to be anything but a hindrance to his team mates. They won't learn trinity mechanics nor will they learn boss mechanics and the abilities they have to use for those mechanics if the fights are geared so that 4 poorly geared dps can down them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawonspecial Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 just like all above poster said, some already stupid even before 3.0 they just there to see big numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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