I need help understanding the problem everyone has against DPS sorc in pvp

[Kayriel]

In both pvp and pve , I play 3 classes , Assassin ( i play Deception exclusively , but now with 3.0 sometimes i switch to hatred as well ) as my main since vanilla early access , with a Vengeance Juggernaut as my primary alt and a Lightning Sorcerer ( sometimes i switch to Madness as well , to make sure i don't get rusty on that spec ) as my secondary alt.

 

With that our of the way , i came to this forum to ask and to try to understand what exactly is the problem with Sorcerers.

I mostly roam the forums and pretty rarely post in any of the sections , but with 3.0 there has been quite an uproar against at least 2 of the classes i play ( Sin and Sorc ) and i am trying to figure what is the problem with the Sorcerer exactly.

 

So far , a lot of the threads regarding Sorcs , say they are OP and some of them attribute this to Force Storm and i am very confused about this issue.

 

This particular skill is an area denial ability , which has a utility skill that boosts its crit and surge chances , but every class that has AOE abilities has a similar utility and can pretty much hit as hard as Storm does ( i recall a merc who did 2 crits of 6.5k with Death From Above on my assassin , since i didn't move fast enough out of it , but that was my mistake ) .

 

So now i am here , trying to understand why exactly is this skill any different than any of the AOEs that exist in the game. Its strength is no different compared to the others as far as i could see and it is a simple matter of moving out of the thing , to completely negate its effects on you.

 

When i play any of the 3 classes i mentioned above , negating the effects of Storm are extremely simple , as a sin i run or clack through it , if i still need to be on target , or hell i can even phase walk if i deem it necessary ; as a jugernaut , i intercede or jump out of it , and as a sorc , obviously , run out.

 

The other classes , have rolls , jumps , speed boosts and so on as well , so i can honestly say , i have no idea why the hate for Sorcs in general and for Storm in particular , since 3.0.

 

I am hoping you guys can help me out with this , since , like i previously7 said , i play a sorc as an alt and to be perfectly honest , i still feel like i am wearing paper instead of armor and if a competent player on a melee toon , or hell even on another ranged character , wants me dead , other than LOS and hit and run tactics , i can't really do much on the class , compared to when playing my sin in either spec , or my vengeance jugger and both of these 2 can still take a beating and give it back and more.

 

Sorcs can dish out the pain , there is no question about it , but to shut that down , you just need to give them dirty stares and that will be enought to cut their damage output by a margin

[TitusOfTides]

I really do agree with this. Especially when you consider two things, in addition to the good points you mentioned.

 

1) Several classes receive a 30% damage reduction on AoEs. HUGE decrease in damage.

 

2) If you take Corruption or Madness, it is actually kind of underwhelming. The big numbers come from the crit/surge bonus the Lightning tree gives - and there is NOTHING wrong with that. A discipline that gives an ability bonus damage!? Unheard of!

 

It's a good ability. It is not overpowered, by any means.

[Frenesi]

 

It's a good ability. It is not overpowered, by any means.

 

It's damage is a bit over the top for lightning. If you use it with force potency (or whatever this thing is called on imp side), storm gets crit chance around 90% for every tick. In PVE it's currently part of optimal single-target rotation, which, according to Bioware, should never be the case.

[Faardor]

This particular skill is an area denial ability , which has a utility skill that boosts its crit and surge chances , but every class that has AOE abilities has a similar utility and can pretty much hit as hard as Storm does ( i recall a merc who did 2 crits of 6.5k with Death From Above on my assassin , since i didn't move fast enough out of it , but that was my mistake ) .

 

Altough dont really have much to contribute to the argument here I do want to point out that the difference between death from above and force storm is that Death from above has a cooldown, force storm does not. (and the AOE utility DPS increase doesnt affect death from above, it affects sweeping blasters / flame sweep) And like someone mentioned, currently force storm is used as a gimmicky way to gain a lot of DPS in PVE as a lightning sorc (granted, not much more than other classes but since lightning is supposed to be a burst spec not where the DPS is supposed to be either) Wouldn't surprise me if in a future patch they give it a cooldown or some such. In PVP however people dont stand still and can just move out of your force storm, interrupt you, cc you. Etc etc so I dont see the hubub.

 

I believe the true problem lies with madness since DOT spread on a sorc (from what im told) is stupidly easy compared to for example a marauder who has to get the thick of things to spread with smash. (Probably true of other DOT classes too but im just not familiar with those)

Edited January 29, 2015 by Faardor

[Kayriel]

Altough dont really have much to contribute to the argument here I do want to point out that the difference between death from above and force storm is that Death from above has a cooldown, force storm does not. (and the AOE utility DPS increase doesnt affect death from above, it affects sweeping blasters / flame sweep) And like someone mentioned, currently force storm is used as a gimmicky way to gain a lot of DPS in PVE as a lightning sorc (granted, not much more than other classes but since lightning is supposed to be a burst spec not where the DPS is supposed to be either) Wouldn't surprise me if in a future patch they give it a cooldown or some such. In PVP however people dont stand still and can just move out of your force storm, interrupt you, cc you. Etc etc so I dont see the hubub.

 

I believe the true problem lies with madness since DOT spread on a sorc (from what im told) is stupidly easy compared to for example a marauder who has to get the thick of things to spread with smash. (Probably true of other DOT classes too but im just not familiar with those)

 

 

With regards to a CD , Storm never ever had that , also , i am not sure it how it would be implemented , since the skill is very different compared to other abilities , especially since that is the only AOE that is accessible to all disciplines and to use mercs as the example again , they have death from above which is on a CD along with Sweeping blasts , a skill that is empowered by a utility similar to what the sorc has and does not posses a CD as well. Which if feel , kind of contributes to my argument that the sorc thing isn't really out of line , AOE wise , since , like i previously mentioned i got hit pretty hard by an AOE that isn't even influenced by a utility that boosts dmg.

 

As for the dot spread thing , i would have to say , that i really don't see why two diametrically opposed play styles are compared in their way of spreading their dots , one is ranged and one is melee. It would be bizarre of a Sorc would have to me in 4 meters of the target to spread the dots , as would a marader , who's primary way of applying the DOTs is saber attacks , would be wierd if he could go into 30 meter range to do it.

[Aeries_Holley]

I've heard this alot too, I think its mostly coming from sith warrior/jedi knight advanced classes whom sorcs were pretty much free kills before 3.0 and with the different changes we got, we can actually get away and kite them around now to a certain degree. For sentinels and mara's, @ 55 they could drop my sorc in about 2-4 seconds of contact time (full expertise augmented), and getting away from a good jugg/guardian was a chore, not so much the case now, at least that i've seen

[skarlson]

PT's I think are the class that needs toned down DPS wise. Just witnessed two be the deciding factor in the last match I played. Two of any other class and the match would have been a steamroll for our side; they kill way to fast in a landscape where kill times have otherwise gone up. Dunno really what is with all the whining about sorcs honestly. They are the best they have been but they still have some glaring deficiencies.

 

I don't even know that madsins are worse; yes 17s of CC immunity is ridiculous and needs a visit from the nerf fairy but I'd rather face a couple of them than a couple PT's.

Edited January 30, 2015 by skarlson

[Divona]

OP problem for people is aoe that dps sorc can do in pvp. But in PVE it is not issue since it costs too much force to be viable and not possible to spam it. And for single target rotation it is not viable to spam storm in real fights. Ignore dummy parsing using this method.

 

So like has happened in past with many classes, pvp problem will affect pve players yet again.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Divona

[thebutthat]

I think the outcry comes from the no cool down and the fact there are a lot of sorcs out there. So when two lighting sorcs double cast it in a zerg of fighting, its pretty brutal. I don't think a 4-6 second CD on Force Storm would be out of line.

[Divona]

I think the outcry comes from the no cool down and the fact there are a lot of sorcs out there. So when two lighting sorcs double cast it in a zerg of fighting, its pretty brutal. I don't think a 4-6 second CD on Force Storm would be out of line.

 

And thats exactly a problem. It will affect and be out of line for PVE mechanics making one skill to use CD just for pvp sake.

[Pantokratorx]

I think the outcry comes from the no cool down and the fact there are a lot of sorcs out there. So when two lighting sorcs double cast it in a zerg of fighting, its pretty brutal. I don't think a 4-6 second CD on Force Storm would be out of line.

 

It needs at least 12 sec CD or more to be in line with other classes, because as of right now wzs become incredible stupid for all melee when there are at least 2-3 sorcs spamming Force Storm. Also gaining dps on single target rotation by using an aoe spell is just against any MMO philosophy I know. Its a viable strategy to just throw Force Storm under yourself even in 1v1. Its just dumb and dumbing down the whole class. In my opinion aoe, especially this potent should never be allowed in PvP or with long CD like Death From Above.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Pantokratorx

[TitusOfTides]

It needs at least 12 sec CD or more to be in line with other classes, because as of right now wzs become incredible stupid for all melee when there are at least 2-3 sorcs spamming Force Storm. Also gaining dps on single target rotation by using an aoe spell is just against any MMO philosophy I know. Its a viable strategy to just throw Force Storm under yourself even in 1v1. Its just dumb and dumbing down the whole class. In my opinion aoe, especially this potent should never be allowed in PvP or with long CD like Death From Above.

 

Mercenaries gain the exact same boost to Sweeping Blasters. It also has no cooldown - and also receives the exact same crit and surge bonus from the proper discipline. The tradeoff is less than half the channel time, for more than half of the damage. If anything, Sages/Sorcerers get the short end of the stick there - especially when you consider that the only other place-able AoE Sorc/Sage get is Force in Balance and Death Field, which in order to get you have to forgo the crit/surge bonus from TK/Lightning. Where's my Death From Above?

Edited January 30, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[thebutthat]

I think FS is the least of the problems for pvp right now. Really what people should be raging over is the corrupted barrier. That one utility is what gives me a huge advantage in Regs and solo ranked. Not sure why this isn't a healer only skill. I've been running madness lately, and those bubble heals combined with dotting everything, i'm doing 400-600k healing in a WZ with 1-1.5 million damage (just on average). If you're going to kill my sorc in a solo que, be prepared to dish out 120k damage, because that's how much it takes to kill me. Not too many dps classes have that luxury.

 

Corrupted barrier is not a pve utility, and would probably give people an opportunity to kill lightning sorcs, instead of just racking up 2500 dps in WZs with all it's aoe, and still having ridiculous survivability. Sorc is easy mode in PVP right now.

[Monterone]

The damage of Force Storm is so awesome with the +25% damage utility and working for full channels on all targets while under Recklessness, that it is part of my regular rotation on my Madness sorc.

 

This is what the problem is, I shouldn't have to use Force Storm in order to maximize my dps in Madness... the discipline should perform that way with what it's given, but it's not.

[KrisBlaze]

When its storming out I go inside.

[thebutthat]

When its storming out I go inside.

 

I know right? I never understood why people stand in the storm...if you get out of it as soon as you see it...it does 4k dmg if it crits on the high end?

[AxusJunta]

I like to use FQ/FS as a filler, usually I plant it on a sniper or slinger which will make them roll(if they're not stupid). I'll then continue to run my rotation against whomever we're focusing then plant a FQ/FS again on that sniper/slinger. Since his roll is gone and doesn't have enough DCD's to counter even if he pops hunker down/entrench he's going to loose quite a bit of HP. One of my main alts is a slinger/sniper (yes I have both) so I know their weakness' too well.

Personally If there is a class/spec that is overwhelmingly OP it's serenity shadows/ madness assassin's. All their immunities and the damage they put out is ridiculous, and so easy a three fingered monkey could figure it out.

[Master-Nala]

I think the outcry comes from the no cool down and the fact there are a lot of sorcs out there. So when two lighting sorcs double cast it in a zerg of fighting, its pretty brutal. I don't think a 4-6 second CD on Force Storm would be out of line.

 

Except the power hasn't had a cooldown since launch and the only reason it became a concern was the Lightning talent. Any changes should be to that talent.

[Master-Nala]

It needs at least 12 sec CD or more to be in line with other classes, because as of right now wzs become incredible stupid for all melee when there are at least 2-3 sorcs spamming Force Storm. Also gaining dps on single target rotation by using an aoe spell is just against any MMO philosophy I know. Its a viable strategy to just throw Force Storm under yourself even in 1v1. Its just dumb and dumbing down the whole class. In my opinion aoe, especially this potent should never be allowed in PvP or with long CD like Death From Above.

 

Since all the whining about FS/FQ started, I've been using it more just to gauge how people react to it. It is shocking (pun intended) how many people will not stop what they are doing to move out of the AoE. And then they come and whine on the forums.

[KrisBlaze]

I know right? I never understood why people stand in the storm...if you get out of it as soon as you see it...it does 4k dmg if it crits on the high end?

 

^

 

Full Dark Reaver, fully augmented with 36 Overkill (couple Resolve just bc), with mostly surge enhancements (few chest shells sitting in inventory!) and 4k/tick is rounding up. More like 2900-3500 unless power trinket procs.

 

Big red circle? ****!

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Part of the problem with the AOE is that it's so uneven. Smugglers saw flyby get nerfed (or removed entirely), and it was a very popular ability. Despite the boost to Sweeping Gunfire, I know plenty are still ticked about that change (and Gunslingers/Snipers aren't seen as uber strong in 3.0, so you don't see them as much as sorcs). And Scoundrels/Ops have a truly terrible aoe ability. And really, it's Sweeping Gunfire and Forcequake that are the real issues. They cover huge areas and do good bits of damage, which make them impact melee classes quite a bit and become quite noticeable when you have a strong class in 3.0 using one of them.

 

But I would say the uncleansable DOTs and healing bubbles are the other issues for people. I'm most annoyed about the healing bubbles and aoe, to be honest. I rather agree that the healing bubbles should be limited to the healing line, because that is a huge boost tied to more than one ability.

 

My Sage is still a lowbie, so I can see why the shields and that self heal are needed for the class, but the healing bubbles are just crazy with what else the class can do. My Scoundrel can spec into a pathetic 5% heal on his shield while the heal bubble gives you 2% per second while it's up! Yeesh.

[Kayriel]

Part of the problem with the AOE is that it's so uneven. Smugglers saw flyby get nerfed (or removed entirely), and it was a very popular ability. Despite the boost to Sweeping Gunfire, I know plenty are still ticked about that change (and Gunslingers/Snipers aren't seen as uber strong in 3.0, so you don't see them as much as sorcs). And Scoundrels/Ops have a truly terrible aoe ability. And really, it's Sweeping Gunfire and Forcequake that are the real issues. They cover huge areas and do good bits of damage, which make them impact melee classes quite a bit and become quite noticeable when you have a strong class in 3.0 using one of them.

 

But I would say the uncleansable DOTs and healing bubbles are the other issues for people. I'm most annoyed about the healing bubbles and aoe, to be honest. I rather agree that the healing bubbles should be limited to the healing line, because that is a huge boost tied to more than one ability.

 

My Sage is still a lowbie, so I can see why the shields and that self heal are needed for the class, but the healing bubbles are just crazy with what else the class can do. My Scoundrel can spec into a pathetic 5% heal on his shield while the heal bubble gives you 2% per second while it's up! Yeesh.

 

Unlike your Scoundrel , who has actual proper defensive cooldowns , like evasion and roll that if you are in Concealment spec you also get to be immune to every dmg type along with a purge too boot , the Sorcer's Static Barrier can be broken in 1 crit , hence currting the healing that the bubble does , almost instantly.

 

Add to that , the fact that you get the same kind of utility we get , and you get to make Stim boost a proper DCD , which gives you 20% dmg reduction for 15 seconds on a 2 min CD and you get a better version of Cloud Mind with Suppression utility.

 

The only thing that i see as being superior is the fact that for Force Barrier we get to self heal , but this is only once every 3 minutes , so forcing that asap gives you a sorcerer that is now wearing paper armor and if one of the other DPS classes , like a PT , Jugger , Assassin in any spec , Operative Concealment , hell even Merc , since their crits rival those of the PT , decides to focus you , your only option is to run around and hope they don't have any gap closers or control skills available , or ur boned.

 

The sorc can pump out large amounts of dmg, single and aoe if left alone , but once you focus them , their aoe gets gutted and their single target stuff gets a drop as well ( not as significant as pre 3.0 of course , but its still there ) . This is valid for all the ranged classes i suppose , so in that respect they are kind of equal.

 

As for the uncleansable dots , everyone got those , not just sorc and sin , and the only people who can efectively get rid of them are operatives and assassins , but this has always been like this . Healers could cleanse 2 of the negative effects once every x seconds , but even if that was the case now , the amount of dots that come from all classes , would still render this point moot , since the healers had to actually be specced into healing to be able to cleanse a 3rd type of negative effect and all 3 classes that could cleanse , were only able to cleanse certain types regardles of that spec , like sorcerers could cleanse physical stuff if specced into corruption , but still counldn't cleanse tech , so the stuff from snipers , ops and the 2 BH ACs were still going to tick and the same in reverse.

[Pherdnut]

It's possible they're just typically played very well, because they have to be to be effective, but a couple sorcs working together seems almost unstoppable in my sloppy solo amateur PVP games. They never seem to to run out of CC breaks. I'll hit them with leg shot, flash grenades, and then follow up with the kick (on top of constant spamming of shrap grenades) hoping I can exhaust their breaks and they just break every time, whereas mine (DF Gunslinger's) are exhausted regularly if I don't spend most of my time crouched/hunkered which is a great way to attract glowbats by the crapload.

 

Granted, Imps tend to be smarter about use of CC than Pubs so for all I know, nobody's even throwing any other than me. But I can't seem to stop them. Like ever. Jumping out of one AOE just lands me in another half the time and they never seem to run out of juice. They don't even seem all that squishy. It takes a little too much concentrated effort to bring them down.

 

Again, maybe I'm just running into ranked gear players farming for comms in unranked games and pubs trend towards being awful at PVP but sorcs and ops are the biggest thorn in my side right now. Tandem sorcs seem unstoppable but I admit I'm not a pro at PVP yet beyond not being an idiot and knowing when to drop whatever cycle I'm in the middle of to adjust to the situation. Of course playing even a little bit smart on a pub solo team is another good way to attract attention so there's that too.

 

But definitely, if somebody' ruining my day on the imp side, it's typically a sorc or much, much worse, two sorcs. My best guess as to a balance problem assuming there is one, is that they never seem to run out of juice, which would be okay if they weren't as hard to stun/kill. I can spam bleeds and AOE indefinitely but once I attract attention I need to back away or die if I don't have support. I rarely see sorcs backing away.

[Scovina]

I'm just running into ranked gear players farming for comms in unranked games

 

This is your problem. You are running into premade teams looking for comms. Maybe not a full team but there is obvious teamwork going on other than the standard fare you normally find in pubs if you are having a hard time like you say. Together two sorcs can be pretty strong but they can be shutdown and once focused their dps goes down by a lot. An obvious needed flaw of a ranged class.

 

Besides unless you are light spec'd FS doesn't even strike very hard. Yes it's a nice ability when you can use it but if they are madness or corruption they would normally only be using it to defend a node or possible help finish off a few low health players that are already being focused though in most cases another ability would be better when specc'd that way.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Scovina

[Ardusnyc]

I like how people base Force Storm's damage in a ST rotation on dummy parses. You guys are idiots lol.