Drockter Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) It takes 3 to 4 runs of Rich slicing to get 3 purple mats... People are not going to stand at the slot machine for 3 hours clicking to get 3 purples... (9 JJ really, since Adaptive Circuits cost 3 JJ each) In such a case, send the crew on missions and log off and go do real world stuff... The only incentive to clicking on the machine is to get JJ faster. It doesn't have to be cheaper. Of course, bots might, but that is another issue... you're suggesting a system that would ONLY be used by bots... You cant have it both ways... the rewards cant favor one action over the other... otherwise we end up exactly where we are now. I, also, wouldn't discount peoples willingness to stand for hours clicking a box. I, like yourself, couldn't do this... not my idea of fun. But others have... by posts in the forums, there are people who literally spent thousands of rolls. I think one poster said he did it for 8 straight hors... others click while watching tv... and of course you have the bots. We aren't on different sides here... but if ANY change favors the slot over other methods it is doomed to fail... Its not meant to replace crew skills... its meant (or rather should have) as a viable alternative to crew skill missions. So if thats the goal... the drop rate would need to be adjusted low enough that for the same approximate cost per mat is the same. Anything else... and the argument starts all over. Edit: See I wouldn't/couldn't do the 3-4 runs of Rishi slicing either (hence I would use crew missions).. or the slots if it was approximate same return. Edited January 22, 2015 by Drockter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnkiduNineEight Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Either the crew missions are cheaper or the slot machine is cheaper. Why would I stand around clicking a machine for an hour if the cost is 100% higher than the crew mission mats? Likewise, why would I run crew missions if that cost was 100% higher? The reason mats gained through the slots need to cost more is because you get them in a more reliable distribution in a shorter period of time. You need to pay for the convenience. If the cost is higher, then my crafted items wouldn't compete with the crew mission items, thus making it pointless. Not true at all. Put simply: Johnny and Jilly are crafters. Both make an item both sell on the GTN for 1000 credits (which is the going rate established by the market both in the willingness to purchase by customers, and the costs associated with production and craftermarkup) Both are considered selfsuffiecnt crafters in that they do not purchase materials from the GTN but gather them. Johnny gathers his materials from the slots. Jilly Gathers hers through crew missions. For the sake of the demonstration, Johnny's materials cost 200 to obtain but he gets them at about three times the rate of jilly. Jillys materials cost 100 but take longer to achieve. So, per item Johnny is making 800 credits. Jilly is making 900 credits. Jilly comes out ahead. So Johnny cuts his prices, and the market filled with other Johnnys and Jillys does the same. Now, Johnny and Killy are both making a profit, the margins are just smaller for Johnny. But johnny says, no owrries, I can make product faster than jilly, so I make up for it in volume. Prices go down even further. Lower prices increases demand (presuming constant need for the product) so both continue to sell and compete. Eventually though you reach a point where Johnny can not go any lower and still make a profit but Jilly can. In that tieme frame though, Johnny, with his greatly increased production capability, was ble to make three items in the time Jilly made 1. So for a significant portion of his production run he was making less money than Killy per item, but he was selling significantly more of them and so his profits, for time invested, were higher. For example: At the staring point. Johnny = 800 profit per item, with three items made in the arbitrary time It takes jilly to make one item with her slower gathering.. So Johnny just made 800*3 or 2400 coins. Jilly = 900 profit with only one item made. Johnny obviously comes out ahead. to start. So as per above, qty and pricing pressures open up the market, more product sold by both producers with one absorbing the margin reduction slightly better. It reaches a point where Jilly's profit over time equals Johnny's profit and the market stabilizes at a lower price from its starting 1000 per item. meanwhile, Johnny had to stand at his slot machine more often, to generate these materials. while he is dong this he is completely occupied. Jilly on the other hand was able to run around, cyber flirt, run some Ops or FP's and do other activities in the game at the same time. netting _additional_ funds Johnny hasn't received/was barred from receiving because he was sitting at the slot machine getting fat and increasingly smelling of the old lady sitting next to him dragging her oxygen bottle around but still dragging from her palmalls. The player is willing to spend more for short term burts of returned value because if it short term convenient. Long term position is based on maximum return. johnny's way is acceptable, even though it costs more, because he wanted the stuff now. Over the long term he could never compete with jilly but he can provide enough competitive pressure Jilly has to lower her prices. At the very least, Johnny can quickly get enough stuff to make his own product for his own characters. He pays for this convenience with increased materials costs. there is an additional wrench here in that Johnny could run crew missions as well while playing the slots. But if someone wants to be that guy.. let him. In the end though, I think your general analysis in the various threads is usually pretty shallow. You look only at the immediate returns/costs and not aggregates and the deeper returns and costs. There is a reason why certain activites can not be rewarded equallyin terms of cost or return. If the activity is made too 'profitable' and its results greatly diminish other results, then its just not going to work especially if those results obviate the existing systems and if they do it in as spectacular a fashion as the slots did, they become a MUST HAVE! Which I think from the threads is where the slots were. You HAD TO HAVE one (not screaming, just trying to give an impression of the people and their clamouring for the slots and then their wailing and gnashing when the magic money machine was taken away) and people WANT THEM BACK! Exactly as they were. This is because they completely trivialized the game. And that might be OK in a single player game but this is not a single player game. So, whatever system BioWare setles on needs to take these things into account and your fix part #2 was inadequate to the task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistyWinter Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I liked #2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saremun Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Nah... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djiini Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Nobody cares. Go play the game. Or stop playing the game. Just pick something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neglience Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I like: Do not let a CM item interfer with the game system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnkiduNineEight Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 ..... The speed and reliability at which you can generate materials from a Slot machine require an additional cost premium for those materials. Otherwise the slot machine remains the preferred method of materials acquisition. This destroys crafting missions/gathering skills. So, mats from Jawa Junk Slot Drops should cost more, in comparison to mats from Gathering Missions. My oen 'feel' is 50 to 100% more, but being open to adjustments either direction as the market matures and the prices start to show their affect on the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 slot machines should have nothing to do with crafting materials I don't have a problem with that in principle... But they did it and now they have to live with it... As I said, refund the CC paid for the CM pack purchases last week and we can move on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 What really annoys me is that everyone pointing to the cost analysis with the slots compared to the crew missions is that they act like grade 11 mats were the only thing that the slot machine was good for, or that crew missions were good for. Apparently to them you have two choices stand around and farm the funbox or stand around and send your crew out for missions. It's like they don't understand what each are good for, and that there's a lot of game to play. Umm... that IS all the two are good for... Beyond crafting materials, the slot machine is pointless... yea, yea, rep... that is nice and fair enough, but once you've got it you don't need more... As for crew missions, the ONLY thing those do is bring back mats, or craft... nothing else... So... what are you on about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The slot machines are gambling. Have you ever walked in/out a Casino where you were supposed to make a profit? No, they are not... just calling them slot machines doesn't make them so... First, you have to buy the machine here (or someone does) Second, slot machines eat money over time, paying out large sums on a random basis. If I could play 500 chips and get almost nothing for it, but then win 100 Jawa Junk in one spin, THEN it would be gambling. There has to be a chance to win more than you put in. It doesn't have to be a big chance, but it needs to be at least SOME chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Not true at all. Put simply: Johnny and Jilly are crafters. Both make an item both sell on the GTN for 1000 credits (which is the going rate established by the market both in the willingness to purchase by customers, and the costs associated with production and craftermarkup) Both are considered selfsuffiecnt crafters in that they do not purchase materials from the GTN but gather them. Johnny gathers his materials from the slots. Jilly Gathers hers through crew missions. For the sake of the demonstration, Johnny's materials cost 200 to obtain but he gets them at about three times the rate of jilly. Jillys materials cost 100 but take longer to achieve. So, per item Johnny is making 800 credits. Jilly is making 900 credits. Jilly comes out ahead. That is a nice example that has nothing to do with how the market works in this game. What it REALLY is is that the item price drops to 150 because Jilly can sell for 150 and make a profit, Johnny would be losing money at that price, making it pointless. Items that cost 100 credits worth of mats and have demand, don't generally stay at 1000 credits for very long. There may be some obscure examples, but lets be honest, we're talking about purple 186 crafted stuff, all of which sells (except the bad stat versions of course). A 186 Might Augment is going to generally run 10-20% over the cost of the mats to make it, give or take 10%. If the mats to make it are twice as expensive via the slot machine, then they might as well not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mariojediwookie Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 By Friday we are going to have part 10 redux........ I think the devs get it, you are not happy, drops suck, you want reparation, and the devs like to kick kittens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bethmora Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I did 3 stacks and did not get Cert Jawa junk droid part Mount I, did not get a big JP, I also noticed the miss rate had to have been changed. I for one will be done with all my pre-bought(30 stacks) coins and wont play it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnkiduNineEight Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 That is a nice example that has nothing to do with how the market works in this game. What it REALLY is is that the item price drops to 150 because Jilly can sell for 150 and make a profit, Johnny would be losing money at that price, making it pointless. Items that cost 100 credits worth of mats and have demand, don't generally stay at 1000 credits for very long. There may be some obscure examples, but lets be honest, we're talking about purple 186 crafted stuff, all of which sells (except the bad stat versions of course). A 186 Might Augment is going to generally run 10-20% over the cost of the mats to make it, give or take 10%. If the mats to make it are twice as expensive via the slot machine, then they might as well not exist. Really? The market in this games works so that the crafters will automatically drop their price to minimal profit margin in order to beat out their competition? Then why were the costs on the market well in excess of the cost of the matierals = RE etc etc amortised costs? Because the market would bear higher and people who are selling goods want to maximize their profit as best they can. his means they do not automatically sell at rock bottom and I they do, arbitragers come in and scoop up alltheir product and relist it and make the profit the original seller did not. Don't focus on the numbers used in nice decimal values to ease the explanation. 100, 200, 1000 these are just easy to picture numbers that make the explanation simple. The point is, if you make the two materials cost the same in spent currency, but one materials involves more time to achieve than the other, then NO ONE will use the longer method to acquire and remain competitive. So peole will be heavily influenced to utilize crafting slot bots and sit watching Netflix while idly clicking so that they can compete in the market at the most optimal method. So the easier method, with the ore reliable returns, needs to be more expensive, to counterbalance and make its cost in all the various terms roughly equal because its unequal in costs such as time to achieve result. Time = money after all. A system that equally values gathered materials and slot generated materials but where gathered materials take longer to obtain means that Chinese Gold Farmers become crafting machine slot bots and they corner the markets and control most all of the resources and control the markets. Sure prices probably drop ridiculously low and run with tiny margins, but no one can compete unless they join the borg collective of slot jackers. This result is undesirable. So, making the cost of the slot gathered materials 50 to 100% more expensive, balances the system towardsusing crew skills to gather when you need long term reliable results and slots when you just need a quick fix. You making something for a friend and need mats now. jack off a slot machine. You trying to make money over time as a crafter, run gathering missions. Convenience has to have a price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 No thanks. Too much obsession over this item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bachannal Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The speed and reliability at which you can generate materials from a Slot machine require an additional cost premium for those materials. Otherwise the slot machine remains the preferred method of materials acquisition. This destroys crafting missions/gathering skills. So, mats from Jawa Junk Slot Drops should cost more, in comparison to mats from Gathering Missions. My oen 'feel' is 50 to 100% more, but being open to adjustments either direction as the market matures and the prices start to show their affect on the market. Oh stop with the effing drama...it does not "destroy" crafting/mat gathering. The mat drops pre nerf weren't *that* high, and now they don't even exist. Now I can get a grand total of ONE Purple mat out of 300 slot coins? That's fair? You're touched in the head if you think that balances out with paying a few thousand creds to have a comp run a crafting/mat gathering mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnkiduNineEight Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Oh stop with the effing drama...it does not "destroy" crafting/mat gathering. The mat drops pre nerf weren't *that* high, and now they don't even exist. Now I can get a grand total of ONE Purple mat out of 300 slot coins? That's fair? You're touched in the head if you think that balances out with paying a few thousand creds to have a comp run a crafting/mat gathering mission. If you believe what you just posted, I suggest you ask the OP of this thread how many Jawa Junk mats she has for both her Guild and herself personally. Secondly, you are posting in a vacuum and unaware of the multiple posts on this subject. My posts prior to the 'nerf' were that the slot machine needed to be adjusted downwards and supported balancing it and the presentations I suggested were reasonable. after the nerf my posts have indicated that the cut was far too severe, and that the balancing should be based on the cost to acquire mats via gathering so that it was 'comperable' but more expensive, so that the rate of return from the slot machine was reasonable, but did not damage crafters and obviate the gathering missions. My position all along has been to find a medium between extremes where the slot continues to be fun, but where it is not a requirement to own and in fact the crafting gathering missions are the best way to get materials. Not the only way, just the best way. Since no matter how you slice it, for the slots to be fun there has to feel like a reasonable rate of return in a short amount of time, this means the costs for the materials needs to be higher per material 'won' so that while it is the fastest and most convenient way to make materials, it is also more expensive than the alternative. For the record, I say 50-100% more costly than mission generatd mats. So, using easy to use round numbers. If the Grade 11 mat costs 1,000 to gather, per mat, then the slot cost for the same should be 1,500 - 2,000 per mat from the slot machine. If the machine is generating materials at a rate cheaper than gathering, there then becomes a necessity to have or have access to a slot machine as it was already significantly faster. How much faster. Ask Ms. Heat-Wave how her guild (not the most abusive of the slot guild out there for sure) has over 10,000 Jawa Junk mats in the Guild Banks and how she personally has amassed for her own use over 3,000 Jawa junk in less than a week. Do you know how long that normally takes to gather that amount? If you do not, then you shouldn't be commenting at all as you are commenting from ignorance and the worth of your opinion is near zero. Edited January 22, 2015 by EnkiduNineEight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heat-Wave Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 People had a legitimate concern that the slot machines could be exploited by macros and bots. Crew mission specialists had a legitimate concern that the slot machines made crew skills obsolete. Both problems should have been addressed by keeping the token cost and drop rates the same, but adding character debuffs similar to the debuffs from stronghold resource nodes. In other words, after receiving X number of Jawa scrap items from a slot machine, you get a debuff preventing you from receiving more Jawa scrap items for Y amount of time. The values for X and Y could be adjusted as needed. Full disclosure: I bought 2 hypercrates, partially motivated by the slot machine, and I got 2 slot machines in the packs. I sold one, and had a lot of fun with the other one before the nerf. I kept all the Jawa scrap I got for use in personal crafting only. ^ This is the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatT Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Slot machines didn't need to be fixed (except perhaps 50% cartel Market Certs), what they need to do is remove Grade 11 blue and purple from Jawa vendors. Just NO. I assumed they (bioware) just added them because scalpers and gold farmers had made getting mats ridiculously expensive, hence putting them on jawa vendors balanced out the scalpers. (for instance) 1 midlythe crystal 85k - 90k. One. It takes 4 to make a relic. Crafters were ALREADY getting screwed. Seems to me they are ALWAYS the last ones considered. I don't mean the ones who make barrels for 2mill each profit, I mean the average crafter trying to keep his toon and their comps in armor. I sure wish people who didn't know what they were talking about didn't talk like they did. Edited January 22, 2015 by PatT clearer language Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts