The economic case for maintaining the "status quo" (by not changing the slots)

[TYBERzan]

Brief note: I do not own a contraband slot machine, nor does my (750+ player) guild. I currently sub for the game, but will soon allow my sub to lapse as I pursue my degree in the fall semester (and won't have time for video games).

 

Coming from an economics background, I must admit that I found the slot machines an excellent addition to the game. Although some players seem to feel (as their "beliefs" are not backed by data) that the slots will somehow lead to inflation. I will attempt to dispel this erroneous notion. In light of the dev decision to alter the slots, I will also make a case for NOT doing so. Please note: I DO NOT own a slot machine. I only play the game sporadically (and oft times frenetically ) though I do wish for everyone to understand the issue better.

 

From many of the accounts I have read, as well as the data mined slot info, I have read that about 60-70% of money is recouped by vendors alone (from coin cost) additionally, 2% of drops are cartel certificates with jawa junk filling up much of the rest. What if I told you that the only figures that truly matter are the amount recouped from vendors and the cost of lost opportunity/capital? What if I could also prove that this machine is GUARANTEED to drop the inflation in the game? What if I could ALSO predict that should the machine be left as is, the price of mats will actually RISE again? Well here we go.

 

Note: this response will be delivered in layman's terms (as I doubt more than about 5% of readers have even a bachelors in econ).

 

If we accept that the economy in-game is not a sealed system but instead a leaky cauldron of sorts we can begin to flesh out the picture. Take for instance the dailies: constant quests which can add hundreds of thousands of credit per hour, into the game. Then consider that the costs per hour are in the range of a few thousand (assuming minimal dying/travel). This means that every day, each player potentially adds hundreds of thousands to the economy. I would imagine, that most players don't spend every penny they earn, but instead keep some multiple in savings. If this "savings" is constantly maintained, we can exclude this amount from the economy (as it doesn't affect others) and instead focus on the "spending" account money. This is the money spent on: decorations, cosmetic items, mods, comp. gear. THIS is what drives inflation. Consider, a player willing to spend half a million and a player willing to spend a million are both competing to buy a mod. The GTN can only be set at one price, so the sellers will on a whole raise and lower prices until they find the highest price they can sell at (while still earning profit). The price will inevitably stabilize at a price which both the half millionaire and millionaire can buy at (a price which should be right under half a million, multiple sellers are required to assure this) meaning that in total, everyone is happy....right?

 

Wrong, lost in the process is the part where these buyers decide "the price is getting too high" and at this point the trouble starts. At this moment these two buyers decide to earn more money, so that the price doesn't take up so much of their wealth (remember, GTN prices constantly change as sellers test new prices) and so on the MACRO scale (more than one buyer) at least some of the "half-millionaires" of the game decide to make more money (as that near half million price eats into them MORE than the wealthier player. The Millionaire player will have to KEEP earning more money if they wish to maintain their position of superior wealth (otherwise, they become the half millionaire and the former peon becomes the wealthier). This cycle can continue on and on BECAUSE that money they are spending is being "printed" by the quest givers. It's inherent value is being cheapened every second on net as more and more people try to attain more wealth, in response a player has to ALSO attain more wealth (in the process, more money is added to the game on net).

 

This of course sounds complicated, every player is making every player poorer (including themselves a little) and so in response they keep doing it despite the self defeating nature of it? Well yes, because even when knowing this they also understand that on NET they will become wealthier and furthermore their "enemies" will just "do the same" so they must do it first or become POOR through inaction.

 

Because of this, an MMO needs ways to drain credits out of the economy lest it make the game too expensive for new players (causing declining subs).

 

BUT HOW? They can hardly start grabbing chunks of money from every player or even selectively from a few as this might easily cause more players to leave. The "solution" of the past was always charging higher amounts of money to higher level players for gear repair- which becomes trivial as ilvl increases. This was of course suboptimal as some of the activities requiring gear repair (FP's, dailies, OPS) may also generate MORE money and further inflate the currency. The solution of reducing rewards and/or increasing cost was untenable in a game with a vocal minority of raiders/group content buffs.

 

And so we have FINALLY reached the logical culmination. The Slot Machine. A device that returns only 60-70 percent of variable cost (coin cost) from vendors. Thereby requiring the additional 40-30% of input cost plus opportunity cost be paid for by players. ON NET this will reduce inflation as the currency received from the game is less than the cost, ergo this machine makes a profit WHICH DOESN'T harm other players. Additionally, the machine is initially paid for by cartel coins (Money for BW) which helps fund the game. On top of that, these machines are targeted for the wealthiest players (when resold), yet benefit the entire economy on net as they increase the supply of various goods in the economy. This results in a gain for EVERYONE since the incentive to grind for money is reduced, which combined with the previously illustrated currency remover = a super-deflator and a reason for new players to join the game (note that many costs for lowbies have already been removed, likely to reduce that credit discrepancy).

 

On the financial aspect, these machines are ALSO a multiplier, the incentive to play the machine until the end of the world (due to the ease of net credit acquisition through gtn) causes players to reach into "savings," or money not usually spent to invest in slot tokens. This means that money which was previously sitting and doing nothing is now actively aiding the game economy.

 

Now, to look at it from the individual players perspective, their money is getting more valuable, and yet the quantity of supply is increasing. All of the items added to the game from a slot machine: the decorations, crafting materials, etc. are rapidly declining in price. (Remember: the long term price will be at or near 30-40% of the marginal cost for a given item. Realistically, there will also be a small profit.) Meaning that players now have more junk. At the same time, the incentive to buy a slot machine will decline (as prices drop) and increase (as prices increase) around an equilibrium point.

 

All should be square right? Well no, certain segments of the now obsolete playerbase, such as specialized gatherers will now face lower prices and obsolescence. In the real world, these people would change professions to something more profitable, especially professions which benefit from the new technology.

-AND so we segway back to micro, with lower mat (input) costs, the production of new items should become cheaper and in the long run the consumer will see cheaper finished goods. SO why then are some of the finished goods makers complaining about this potentially profitable change??

 

SImple, they are ALSO producers of input goods. AND although they should be switching to mats from slots and cheaper finished goods, they resist this change as it entails more work (more production) and thus an increase expenditure in time (in a perfect market, there would be so many suppliers that there would not be this slight shortage, however it is quite expensive to become a crafter and so fewer people do it). And so you see, a group of the playerbase resists a profitable outcome (slots) because they have over specialized and no longer bear an advantage.

 

So now I must make the case for keeping slot prices the same. I admit I don't know how the change will be on net but understand this: If the amount paid from an npc vendor (stuff sold to the vendors, but not the jawa junk) is decreased- the prices of in game items will increase, as will inflation, as sellers try to recoup cost. Also note that if the drop rates of jawa junk are decreased, the price of finished goods will rise and the amount of inflation will increase. Furthermore, if the drop rate of rep/ other vendored items rises on the machines, then the rate of deflation will invariably slow. Please note as well that increasing the cost of a token will de facto decrease the marginal profit of the machine and increase GTN prices (of items sold there influenced by this machine), and may cancel out the increase in vendorable items cost but if so why do this?(and may do something less predictable).

 

There is much and more I could mention, but the fact is that we are unlikely to see the long term effects of the slot machine yet (as mat prices have yet to increase from the declining marginal profit which we would see when slot machine-rs found the next-best alternative more profitable).

 

And so my suggestion is that BW should have kept things where they were in order to see what happened and question whether a change was even needed.

 

-TZ

[Delta_V]

Good post about how inflation and credit sinks work, but it misses the point people are making about the slot machines. Most people who dislike the current payouts of the slot machine are not claiming it will lead to inflation. Also, the slot machine is hardly the only credit sink in the game; crew missions (slicing/diplomacy/etc.) are credit sinks as well.

 

The root of the issue is that the slot machine is actually a smaller credit sink than running crew missions. The amount of credits a player has to "sink" into the slot machine is considerably lower than the number of credits a player has to "sink" into running crew missions to get one purple mat. That is the reason people want the slot machine nerfed, because it represents a more cost-effective method of acquiring mats, while also being more time efficient. It is possible to farm dozens of Jawa Junk in a few minutes on the slot machines, while each Rich/Bountiful crew mission takes almost an hour to run, while only having a 25% chance of returning 2-3 purple mats.

 

The net result is that the slot machine makes running crew missions totally obsolete as a method of obtaining purple mats. Instead, gathering mats is now tied to a Cartel Market item, which you either need to buy off the GTN for millions of credits or spend real money to obtain. Not only does this create a significant barrier to entry for new would-be crafters, it creates a troubling relationship between gameplay and real money transactions. On top of that, it actually reduces the credit sink tied to gathering mats.

 

edit: Also, you talk about how vast of an impact the slot machine can have on the economy. That in itself indicates there is something seriously wrong with this situation. Making a random-drop item from a pack purchased via a real-money transaction a central piece of the in-game economy is patently absurd, IMHO.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Delta_V

[venomlash]

Good post about how inflation and credit sinks work, but it misses the point people are making about the slot machines. Most people who dislike the current payouts of the slot machine are not claiming it will lead to inflation. Also, the slot machine is hardly the only credit sink in the game; crew missions (slicing/diplomacy/etc.) are credit sinks as well.

 

The root of the issue is that the slot machine is actually a smaller credit sink than running crew missions. The amount of credits a player has to "sink" into the slot machine is considerably lower than the number of credits a player has to "sink" into running crew missions to get one purple mat. That is the reason people want the slot machine nerfed, because it represents a more cost-effective method of acquiring mats, while also being more time efficient. It is possible to farm dozens of Jawa Junk in a few minutes on the slot machines, while each Rich/Bountiful crew mission takes almost an hour to run, while only having a 25% chance of returning 2-3 purple mats.

 

The net result is that the slot machine makes running crew missions totally obsolete as a method of obtaining purple mats. Instead, gathering mats is now tied to a Cartel Market item, which you either need to buy off the GTN for millions of credits or spend real money to obtain. Not only does this create a significant barrier to entry for new would-be crafters, it creates a troubling relationship between gameplay and real money transactions. On top of that, it actually reduces the credit sink tied to gathering mats.

 

This, this, this, and this. The real issue is that the machines are more cost- and time-effective than gathering or missions for getting crafting materials.

[EnkiduNineEight]

The primary change to the slots was because they obviated any reason to use any gathering crew skill.

 

_completely_ obviated them.

 

There were other potential issues as well, but would have taken much longer to shake out. But the rate of return of materials alone was enough to indicate a problem. That not only was it faster and more reliable method to get these materials but cheaper per material (and even cheaper if you consider the potential income from selling cert decorations, and not just the buyback of the reputation items).

 

There was no reason then to use your crew skills at all, and send companions out to gather on 'Rich;' Missions and hope you got your 1 in 5 chance of getting a critical result every hour or so.

 

For some, this was fine and 'democratic' for others, it removed what perceived as having worked hard at doing for years in order to keep their crafters going. But what was an essential game mechanic for gathering purple mats was completely obviated by a purchased item.

 

So not only did it break companion gathering missions, but it also indicated that to be able to compete at all in gathering mats, you had to have one or have access to it. Sure you could buy it from the GTN but someone had to convert cartel coins into a crate first and the vast majority of these cartel coins are purchased and not granted.

 

They made the right decision. I'm looking forward to figuring out what the post patch drop rate is. I also like that the pot was sweetened with a new vehicle. Even more like that its faction specific so I have to try for it from at least two characters.

 

My expectation is that the increased cost per toke plus the reduced rate of return will make the purple JJ scrap drops cost a little more each than it does through crew skill/gathering missions.

 

This means the most economic way to generate new materials is crew skill missions.

The most immediate/reliable way to get your purple mats costs you more.

Item is no longer a 'requirement' to compete in the marketplace.

 

And you get a chance at a new 'speeder'.

[Ryenke]

Very interesting, but I have a two specific questions.

 

Pre-slot machine, credits were spent on crew missions to get (for instance) Midlithe. thus creating a credit sink. Another poster put up some math (which jibes with my unsupported impressions) given mission cost and crit chance, Midlithe obtained through crew skills cost 6800 ish credits. However using the Slots, jawa junk - exchanged 1 to 1 with Midlithe costs me 1550 ish to obtain.

 

Doesn't that equate to less of a credit sink than before?

 

Also, when you are discussing the price stabilization point you indicate an assumption that "multiple sellers are required to assure this" - Am I correct in that the more sellers the more efficiently this point of stabilization will be reached? (If the answer to that is yes, then I see a potential problem with your thesis here. ::::: As a crafter, part of what in the real world would be 'overhead' costs for me ingame is the TIME factor. I can only play for a certain limited time, therefore, if the profit margin falls too low, (i.e. 10 minutes of crafting time (gathering material, crafting and posting) yields me less than 10 minutes of running CZ daily - I will no longer craft. Not greed, but rational efficiency. Assuming other crafters make the same type of cost/time/benefit analysis, then I would foresee LESS GTN competition because profits are narrower.)

 

My questions aside, this was an enlightening and thoughtful analysis. I thank you.

[Tolunart]

[in light of the dev decision to alter the slots, I will also make a case for NOT doing so.

-TZ

 

I'm not sure of the purpose of this. The patch goes live in less than twelve hours, arguing that it shouldn't happen is a waste of your time. Are you expecting the Governor to call two minutes before midnight and stop the execution?

[Jerba]

1. Many players - including me - have done the maths, and have found out that the slot machines give you purple mats for less credits than via gathering missions. This is not just some "belief" but is a fact.

If you sell the reputation trophies and blue mats to a vendor, and put the green mats and certificates into the bank without converting them to credits, the purple mats need to net you 1,340 credits in order to not make a loss.

In comparison, the credits per purple mat via gathering are at around 4,000 credits. In both instances, we are ignoring the time invested, but gathering skills are not that much faster or an easier thing to do that it would justify such a higher credit investment.

 

2. I totally agree that the slot machines are a good credit sink. Many credit sinks feel punishing to players, the best example would be repair costs, where players will not queue for group finder when they feel the group will wipe too many times. Or the mod swapping/augmenting cost where players would rather keep their old gear instead of switching to a nicer-looking set.

In the slot machines, however, the credit sink is much more hidden. Since players can gain so many credits from selling mats, they won't notice it, but in the end it does have a good effect on the economy; maybe not as high as repair costs or mod swapping, but it is there.

 

3. Tomorrow's change to the slot machines will not remove this credit sink. Today's yellow post told me that once again the devs are aware of everything we talk about in this thread, and they will do everything they can to keep the slot machines attractive, while at the same time not more rewarding than other game activities.

I'm curious to see the new droprates and once again calculate the break-even point for mat prices. Hopefully, it will still be below the market price, otherwise I'll just play the slots until I have the speeder and stop playing.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Jerba

[TYBERzan]

Good post about how inflation and credit sinks work, but it misses the point people are making about the slot machines. Most people who dislike the current payouts of the slot machine are not claiming it will lead to inflation. Also, the slot machine is hardly the only credit sink in the game; crew missions (slicing/diplomacy/etc.) are credit sinks as well.

 

The root of the issue is that the slot machine is actually a smaller credit sink than running crew missions. The amount of credits a player has to "sink" into the slot machine is considerably lower than the number of credits a player has to "sink" into running crew missions to get one purple mat. That is the reason people want the slot machine nerfed, because it represents a more cost-effective method of acquiring mats, while also being more time efficient. It is possible to farm dozens of Jawa Junk in a few minutes on the slot machines, while each Rich/Bountiful crew mission takes almost an hour to run, while only having a 25% chance of returning 2-3 purple mats.

 

The net result is that the slot machine makes running crew missions totally obsolete as a method of obtaining purple mats. Instead, gathering mats is now tied to a Cartel Market item, which you either need to buy off the GTN for millions of credits or spend real money to obtain. Not only does this create a significant barrier to entry for new would-be crafters, it creates a troubling relationship between gameplay and real money transactions. On top of that, it actually reduces the credit sink tied to gathering mats.

 

edit: Also, you talk about how vast of an impact the slot machine can have on the economy. That in itself indicates there is something seriously wrong with this situation. Making a random-drop item from a pack purchased via a real-money transaction a central piece of the in-game economy is patently absurd, IMHO.

 

 

You miss the contention that the slot machines are a multiplier, my friend. That means that every credit spent on a slot coin generates more "money" (ie; every time someone spends a coin it increases the total economy in terms of value since items of value are being sold, these items themselves are inherently valuable) note that "money" (more accurately I refer to a general store of value which can be non-pecuniary, such as a stack of mats being inherent stores of value) may not be credits. This implies that the machine moves money around FASTER than other means in the game, this would debunk your claim that crafting is more efficient as a sink, since this machine demands more REPETITION (as the lower prices it generates require MORE usage) this is evidenced by the number of mats after the slot's intro being VASTLY higher than before. Additionally, the previous method required high levels of dedication and TIME - which preclude entry into that particular market. This is proven as the profit of a crafter exceeded the profit of a slot-er, meaning that the ease of entry has allowed ANYONE with the 2-3 mill credits to enter this market and deflate credits. The point is that your statement that crafting is more efficient is patently FALSE as the profit of mats is nominally lower, and this is a product of the lower price.

 

The idea that one machine SHOULDN'T control inflation is strange to me, considering that IRL that is one of the jobs of a central bank. In the SWTOR system, that has been replaced with a profit incentive on the part of the players.

[TYBERzan]

This, this, this, and this. The real issue is that the machines are more cost- and time-effective than gathering or missions for getting crafting materials.

 

Please explain how this is an issue? I disagreed and provided evidence that the higher efficiency is good for the economy. Note that the inability for entrepreneurial innovation in this game alters the economic models, even so I think I have done well in my predictions.

[Jerba]

Please explain how this is an issue? I disagreed and provided evidence that the higher efficiency is good for the economy. Note that the inability for entrepreneurial innovation in this game alters the economic models, even so I think I have done well in my predictions.

Just because it's good for the economy does not mean it is good for the game. Developing the crew skill/gathering system took a lot of time and resources, and if a slot machine makes it too easy to get the materials, then players won't run gathering missions anymore.

Especially in the modern MMO market, a game needs to have a diverse range of activities for the players. SWTOR tries to appease to a large and varied crowd, so they need to ensure that all gameplay activities net comparable results, and that is reason alone to nerf the slot machines, no matter how big of a credit sink they are.

Yes, the slot machines will still be used after the patch, just no longer at the expense of gathering missions.

[TYBERzan]

The primary change to the slots was because they obviated any reason to use any gathering crew skill.

 

_completely_ obviated them.

 

There were other potential issues as well, but would have taken much longer to shake out. But the rate of return of materials alone was enough to indicate a problem. That not only was it faster and more reliable method to get these materials but cheaper per material (and even cheaper if you consider the potential income from selling cert decorations, and not just the buyback of the reputation items).

 

There was no reason then to use your crew skills at all, and send companions out to gather on 'Rich;' Missions and hope you got your 1 in 5 chance of getting a critical result every hour or so.

 

For some, this was fine and 'democratic' for others, it removed what perceived as having worked hard at doing for years in order to keep their crafters going. But what was an essential game mechanic for gathering purple mats was completely obviated by a purchased item.

 

So not only did it break companion gathering missions, but it also indicated that to be able to compete at all in gathering mats, you had to have one or have access to it. Sure you could buy it from the GTN but someone had to convert cartel coins into a crate first and the vast majority of these cartel coins are purchased and not granted.

 

They made the right decision. I'm looking forward to figuring out what the post patch drop rate is. I also like that the pot was sweetened with a new vehicle. Even more like that its faction specific so I have to try for it from at least two characters.

 

My expectation is that the increased cost per toke plus the reduced rate of return will make the purple JJ scrap drops cost a little more each than it does through crew skill/gathering missions.

 

This means the most economic way to generate new materials is crew skill missions.

The most immediate/reliable way to get your purple mats costs you more.

Item is no longer a 'requirement' to compete in the marketplace.

 

And you get a chance at a new 'speeder'.

 

Well I'll start with the last statements first.

 

The item was NEVER any sort of requirement, as it only makes sense if you can cover the significant costs attached with buying it. You should also note that as more people bought these, the expected earnings would go down in terms of using the machine. This means that in time other means of credit generation would become popular again. You should also note that these slot machines were NEVER the best way to generate credits- playing the market and holding items were, as the slot machine generated a shrinking amount of money whereas playing the market leads to UNLIMITED earning potential.

 

You should also note that that advantage only goes to crafters, meaning that people without the crafting skills will still utilize the machine if they want the mats for less money. They will ALSO sell if the price exceeds a certain price, and so there will STILL be a hard cap that crafters can sell items before slot machine-rs start selling the mats at their cost point. Bottom line is that crafters should NEVER expect the profits they were earning to be true in the future.

 

(ie: if saudi arabia sells oil at 5$ a barrel and no one else can sell that cheaply they can rise to 55$ a barrel, at that point it is profitable for the US to sell and so they can no longer charge 100$ a barrel in the long term. So yes, I expect that bioware has planned this for a long time as a way to limit mod prices and allow new players better entry. The first signs of this are now visible as being the removal of training cost.)

[TYBERzan]

Very interesting, but I have a two specific questions.

 

Pre-slot machine, credits were spent on crew missions to get (for instance) Midlithe. thus creating a credit sink. Another poster put up some math (which jibes with my unsupported impressions) given mission cost and crit chance, Midlithe obtained through crew skills cost 6800 ish credits. However using the Slots, jawa junk - exchanged 1 to 1 with Midlithe costs me 1550 ish to obtain.

 

Doesn't that equate to less of a credit sink than before?

 

Also, when you are discussing the price stabilization point you indicate an assumption that "multiple sellers are required to assure this" - Am I correct in that the more sellers the more efficiently this point of stabilization will be reached? (If the answer to that is yes, then I see a potential problem with your thesis here. ::::: As a crafter, part of what in the real world would be 'overhead' costs for me ingame is the TIME factor. I can only play for a certain limited time, therefore, if the profit margin falls too low, (i.e. 10 minutes of crafting time (gathering material, crafting and posting) yields me less than 10 minutes of running CZ daily - I will no longer craft. Not greed, but rational efficiency. Assuming other crafters make the same type of cost/time/benefit analysis, then I would foresee LESS GTN competition because profits are narrower.)

 

My questions aside, this was an enlightening and thoughtful analysis. I thank you.

 

I don't have that bit of maths, though I think I can "de-obfuscate" (that was a play on words and a java reference (: ). Although the per-unit credit sink may now be lower, you also have to consider what happens to those mats. They are USED UP, and not simply stored. This means that the demand is rather constant, rather than increasingly elastic in the long term (IE: there are not tons of alternatives to item mods from GTN for a character, the other way to acquire them requires grinding for basics and then elites which require minimum time commitments and is very inefficient, besides that the time to grind is artificially limited as new gear is introduced and commendations are downgraded) so reducing the price on mods achieves a much higher Quantity Demanded, perhaps in a non-linear fashion since players will stop consuming the amount they buy and INSTEAD saving them.

 

This can be seen as the new market at the lower price containing: old buyers (consuming mods), old buyers (hoarding mods), new buyers (consuming), new buyers (hoarding/ using on comps). The net result is a higher amount of mods being stored (in vaults), a higher amount being consumed (taken out of supply), and a higher amount being sold (and quickly replaced). With the net effect being higher concentrations of mods and more deflation on NET.

 

---Also note, players are not all playing the machine for strict item mods but generally for higher amounts of credits, this means that EVEN IF the mods make no/little profit they will still be sold as the player is making more in TOTAL profit and has to sell these mods anyway. IE: the 30-40% credit sinkage may be less efficient in terms of marginal credit sinkage (you didn't give me a marginal amount of "credit sink" so I will assume you are correct, until additional info is added) but the combination of higher total # of players playing, and the continued use of the machine will likely result in higher TOTAL "credit sinkage" over the long run.

 

Just think, if you had the amount of total number of item mods in the game at the previous price vs. now how do you think the numbers would compare?

[TYBERzan]

1. Many players - including me - have done the maths, and have found out that the slot machines give you purple mats for less credits than via gathering missions. This is not just some "belief" but is a fact.

If you sell the reputation trophies and blue mats to a vendor, and put the green mats and certificates into the bank without converting them to credits, the purple mats need to net you 1,340 credits in order to not make a loss.

In comparison, the credits per purple mat via gathering are at around 4,000 credits. In both instances, we are ignoring the time invested, but gathering skills are not that much faster or an easier thing to do that it would justify such a higher credit investment.

 

2. I totally agree that the slot machines are a good credit sink. Many credit sinks feel punishing to players, the best example would be repair costs, where players will not queue for group finder when they feel the group will wipe too many times. Or the mod swapping/augmenting cost where players would rather keep their old gear instead of switching to a nicer-looking set.

In the slot machines, however, the credit sink is much more hidden. Since players can gain so many credits from selling mats, they won't notice it, but in the end it does have a good effect on the economy; maybe not as high as repair costs or mod swapping, but it is there.

 

3. Tomorrow's change to the slot machines will not remove this credit sink. Today's yellow post told me that once again the devs are aware of everything we talk about in this thread, and they will do everything they can to keep the slot machines attractive, while at the same time not more rewarding than other game activities.

I'm curious to see the new droprates and once again calculate the break-even point for mat prices. Hopefully, it will still be below the market price, otherwise I'll just play the slots until I have the speeder and stop playing.

 

1. I have not seen these "maths," though I will assume you are being honest in your accounting (are you? .) My point was never that Slots don't get you more credits than crafting, I neither have a means to check nor care. The important bit is the new player experience, and the ability for our money to either gain or remain valuable rather than become a "casual tax" which drives people from the game.

 

2. I doubt that the non-economic costs you cite are even a TENTH the efficiency of the slots. Those are AVOIDABLE, meaning you can tailor your behaviour to avoid them. The Slot machines are unavoidably a credit sink. For instance, If I don't want to repair my armor, I could instead form groups of players to clear dailies for the credits. Similarly, avoiding the mod-swaps involves "not swapping mods." As such, this non economic taxation discourages the activity it taxes (the same concept as deadweight loss) versus the slots which instead REWARD you for partaking due to market forces.

 

3. My point was never that altering the machine would be the end of the world, only that this alteration could potentially harm a self correcting action (which I predict has yet to happen). The ultimate goal is simply to see what happens, as such my issue was simply with their potentially self defeating timing.

[TYBERzan]

Just because it's good for the economy does not mean it is good for the game. Developing the crew skill/gathering system took a lot of time and resources, and if a slot machine makes it too easy to get the materials, then players won't run gathering missions anymore.

Especially in the modern MMO market, a game needs to have a diverse range of activities for the players. SWTOR tries to appease to a large and varied crowd, so they need to ensure that all gameplay activities net comparable results, and that is reason alone to nerf the slot machines, no matter how big of a credit sink they are.

Yes, the slot machines will still be used after the patch, just no longer at the expense of gathering missions.

 

Well only a select few players craft at the upper level, right? (The answer is yes, since there is considerable profit in sales there). Meanwhile, a considerably higher number of players have been new to the game, right? (Another rhetorical question). Therefore, we can conclude that reducing a barrier to gearing (mat cost) and reducing inflation (a goal of Bioware's apparently) will better serve the player base than allowing a minority to affect the experience of others, which potentially reduces player numbers.

 

My contention was never that the slot machines would be phased out, nor that anyone should have to suffer, only that the experience could improve the game on the AGGREGATE, rather than for the benefit of a few. And BTW, the effect of the slots will persist, I have no doubt, but at a different price point.

[lobstah_rofls]

The primary change to the slots was because they obviated any reason to use any gathering crew skill.

 

_completely_ obviated them.

 

Why on earth do people keep saying this? It is completely wrong. Running the slot machine competes with gathering, not with running missions.

 

Assuming for the moment that you sell everything you acquire whichever way you acquire it, while it is true that running missions while you click on the slot machine does increase your per-unit cost***, stop and ask yourself what that really matters. By running missions while you do slots or gather, you acquire a lot more items to sell, and so achieve more total revenue and yes even more total profit in a given amount of time.

 

People are just so nervous about spending money to make money, I guess...even when it is their freakin' monopoly money from a video game...

 

***and even that is assuming that all you want is the purple mats from critical successes, which is silly because the regular results are still plenty valuable and worth your time if you are tending a bunch of GTN auctions already anyway.

Edited January 21, 2015 by lobstah_rofls

[Glower]

my (750+ player) guild

 

But it has 500 players cap...

[Mariojediwookie]

Why on earth do people keep saying this? It is completely wrong. Running the slot machine competes with gathering, not with running missions.

 

Assuming for the moment that you sell everything you acquire whichever way you acquire it, while it is true that running missions while you click on the slot machine does increase your per-unit cost***, stop and ask yourself what that really matters. By running missions while you do slots or gather, you acquire a lot more items to sell, and so achieve more total revenue and yes even more total profit in a given amount of time.

 

People are just so nervous about spending money to make money, I guess...even when it is their freakin' monopoly money from a video game...

 

***and even that is assuming that all you want is the purple mats from critical successes, which is silly because the regular results are still plenty valuable and worth your time if you are tending a bunch of GTN auctions already anyway.

 

Tonight I aquired nearly two stacks of green jawa parts in one hour of playing slots. This was all bank because I only played the slots to get the purple mats. So why would I run a 3.5k mission to get 8u, which takes 40 mins to run.

 

The slots removed the need to have any crew skills outside of crafting. This is what you people seem to not be able to comprehend. i lose credits when I run missions right now because there is no cost to acquiring green mats for me.

 

And to the original poster, it boils down to the slots replaced a part of the game it was NEVER intended to do. It's obvious from Eric the devs were concerned about the high prices of end game gear BUT they were not prepared to replace basically the entire crafting system.

[Ryenke]

Why on earth do people keep saying this? It is completely wrong. Running the slot machine competes with gathering, not with running missions.

 

Assuming for the moment that you sell everything you acquire whichever way you acquire it, while it is true that running missions while you click on the slot machine does increase your per-unit cost***, stop and ask yourself what that really matters. By running missions while you do slots or gather, you acquire a lot more items to sell, and so achieve more total revenue and yes even more total profit in a given amount of time.

 

People are just so nervous about spending money to make money, I guess...even when it is their freakin' monopoly money from a video game...

 

***and even that is assuming that all you want is the purple mats from critical successes, which is silly because the regular results are still plenty valuable and worth your time if you are tending a bunch of GTN auctions already anyway.

 

Why? Because all crew skills were not created equal. Running Blue/Purple crew skills in an environment where the purple is listed on the GTN for approximately the same what it would cost me to obtain the purple is silly. The way to maximize credits would be to play slots and send your minions out on the most profitable green crew skill missions (scav/arch/bio). (especially since post Conquest green mats can be VERY profitable to sell on GTN)

 

Essentially with the unnerfed slots, I would never send a companion out on a Treasure Hunting/Diplomacy/Investigation/Underworld Trading mission again - financially it makes no sense. (The 3 JJ to 1 ratio for slicing made it barely reasonable to continue running those missions).

 

Aside: Blues aren't worth the mission costs at all. Often blues are sold on the GTN for LESS than the vendor price (which I snatch up and resell to vendor). And blue mats at grade 11 are essentially worthless - you are lucky to be able to sell at better than vendor cost - usually they just don't sell and you have to vendor them anyway.

[Halinalle]

Just because it's good for the economy does not mean it is good for the game. Developing the crew skill/gathering system took a lot of time and resources, and if a slot machine makes it too easy to get the materials, then players won't run gathering missions anymore.

 

Slot machine is more efficient for purples only.

Mission skills are still far superior when we are talking about blue (prototype) materials.

Gathering skills and actually gathering at the same time is far superior way to get green (premium) materials.

 

Compare:

Rish + Bioanalysis vs slot machine

Yavin IV + scavenging vs slot machine

Yavin IV + archeology vs slot machine

Edited January 21, 2015 by Halinalle

[Jandi]

Slot machine is more efficient for purples only.

Mission skills are still far superior when we are talking about blue (prototype) materials.

Gathering skills and actually gathering at the same time is far superior way to get green (premium) materials.

 

It's true. You can't move 50 meters on Yavin without running into a resource node.

[Halinalle]

It's true. You can't move 50 meters on Yavin without running into a resource node.

 

That's why I hate doing dailies there on some of my characters.

"Must... resist... must... aaargh!"

[Jandi]

That's why I hate doing dailies there on some of my characters.

"Must... resist... must... aaargh!"

If you have slicing, it's more lucrative to take the nodes than do the missions. Blue boxes give 10k or so a pop, one missions gives 8k and you sometimes pick up doubles of white ones, which are 3k or so a pop.

[Halinalle]

If you have slicing, it's more lucrative to take the nodes than do the missions. Blue boxes give 10k or so a pop, one missions gives 8k and you sometimes pick up doubles of white ones, which are 3k or so a pop.

 

At around 60 on my level 20 Sage...

[PantherReturns]

I am little surprised that this thread didn't get more traction. It seemed to take a considered view of the situation.

[Heat-Wave]

If you have slicing, it's more lucrative to take the nodes than do the missions. Blue boxes give 10k or so a pop, one missions gives 8k and you sometimes pick up doubles of white ones, which are 3k or so a pop.

 

^ This is the truth, and probably the most lucrative per minute way to spend time in the game today...