Lockjaw Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Lurker is getting very frustrating. We have a full list of items we are making sure not to do (or do) to prevent the bugs, but there is no way to prevent these graphical inconsistencies. Look at our two streams: Note the player marked with a star on both streams (me = Lock). Lock's stream: http://www.twitch.tv/plocks/c/5912121 Hayward's stream: http://www.twitch.tv/torparse/c/5912099 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyGreggy Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Lurker is getting very frustrating. We have a full list of items we are making sure not to do (or do) to prevent the bugs, but there is no way to prevent these graphical inconsistencies. Look at our two streams: Note the player marked with a star on both streams (me = Lock). Lock's stream: http://www.twitch.tv/plocks/c/5912121 Hayward's stream: http://www.twitch.tv/torparse/c/5912099 Yeah, that was our experience last night. Could see from your first link the Shadow tank (couldn't see name, sorry) was outside the cross, but on the 2nd link he was clearly inside it AND jumped to try to update his position. Broken mechanic is broken. Edited January 19, 2015 by CrazyGreggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaokhan Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Lurker is getting very frustrating. We have a full list of items we are making sure not to do (or do) to prevent the bugs, but there is no way to prevent these graphical inconsistencies. Look at our two streams: Note the player marked with a star on both streams (me = Lock). Lock's stream: http://www.twitch.tv/plocks/c/5912121 Hayward's stream: http://www.twitch.tv/torparse/c/5912099 That was our experience last night too (18. Jan. 2015) - both SM-Operations 8/16 Server: T3-M4 It´s more than frustrating ... hope Bioware fix it soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenGoalie Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Yeah, that was our experience last night. Could see from your first link the Shadow tank (couldn't see name, sorry) was outside the cross, but on the 2nd link he was clearly inside it AND jumped to try to update his position. Even in the video where he's inside it, he's not even remotely centered. Let's assume for a moment that he's seeing the same cross as the second streamer. Best way to do this cross from the start has been to stand in the dead center of the cross (jump if you feel you need to), because it's the most likely spot to actually be in the real cross, regardless of what shows up on your screen. If he had been, he would've been in it on both screens. This type of issue has been around; it's the same idea as "I was nowhere near that red circle!" but then you die inside it. "I was inside it!" but to others you appear outside. I'm more concerned about getting hit for an even 12k on a green cross and "orange" crosses. Edited January 19, 2015 by FrozenGoalie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fakespy Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Same issues here on Begeren Colony. We tried it last night, and our sniper got caught outside the cross on my screen, but was in it on one of the tank's screen. On our second pull the same thing happened to two other people, third pull we passed the first cross then failed the second because our main tank wasn't in the cross on some people's screens (he was in it on mine), and the pattern basically continues like that for 15 pulls before we called it a night. This mechanic either needs to be dropped completely, or removed from the game until the coders are SURE it's working properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snean Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 bw'll say: we testing it in our office (all have direct connect to server) - cross works perfect for us. so we never fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaFaceroll Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Ran this in a pug for laughs yesterday and saw the same thing. More than one pull I'd see either the tank or 1-2 people in an arm outside the cross when they'd clearly thought they were in position (moved in to place, jumped, resumed actions). Even with the tank taking a step back and jumping in an attempt to force the boss to behave we had at least one failure each pull. bw'll say: we testing it in our office (all have direct connect to server) - cross works perfect for us. so we never fix it. I would hope that they're at least running a final QA off a staging environment that somewhat mirrors live hardware and server loads. Unfortunately I've seen enough people run QA off local, under loaded, poorly controlled systems on a gigabit LAN and call it good enough to pass muster for deployment to find your hypothesis disturbingly plausible. Having a few Devs+QA staff poke Underlurker on the local LAN on someone's Dev box wouldn't see these issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theITfactor Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Here's two screenshots of the same cross from two different player perspectives, the moment before it turns red. Hayward (right arm part of the cross): http://i.imgur.com/vmcS3JM.jpg Lock (left arm part of the cross): http://i.imgur.com/7cJIqxE.jpg If you look at Hayward and his cross group, all three of them appear to be in the exact dead center of the right arm of their cross, however if you look at them from Lock's perspective, they all look shifted far to the side, on the edge or out of the cross. Now if we look at Lock's group, Lock is in the cross from his perspective, but Oblivion is outside to the left. However from Hayward's perspective, Oblivion is barely in the cross and Lock and Xyzan are outside of it. The three people who took damage were Lock (full death), Xyzan (50%), and Oblivion (50%). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feefty Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 JC has been pretty rough when it comes to the cross. Can take one group in there and 1 shot him and have 30-40 wipes on another group due to this "bug". We ended up grouping on 1 rock and having to heal through the red crosses. Had everyone stay close to the middle of the cross so our sorc and my aoe heal had everyone topped before either the red or green crosses. I know we have had members who swear up and down they were in the cross and it looked to us as if they were out. Think the highest ms our members run is 1 around 70-80. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maebeebuzz Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 The sad truth is you just have to heal more or defensive CD to get through it. It's capitalizing on the RNG when it works, and everyone stacking on the person with the least latency (we've found that helps as far as cross position is concerned). But its a shame a buggy mechanic is the thing that stops people from progressing and you have to use over complicated strats to get through it. The cross though is just another example of the whole, server to player and player to server lag...thing. Sure, you can plan AROUND the mechanic, and out mechanic the mechanic, but that's exsessive. Just like Raptus in DP, the Corrupter Zero circle, and any other ground effect that you have to jump to reset your position, these types of mechanics are always going to be a problem with the current engine. I also really like getting the green and red cross at the same time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joran-Koon Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Like I said at the beginning of this post, There are things to help with getting it to work right. Standing a million miles away from the boss isn't one of them. your screen shots show inconsistency yes but there are 2/3 of the people that are seeing the right thing. If you see you're the only on not in a group, you're latency is slowest and YOU need to move. Its bugged, broken, frustrating and dumb but it's clearable. We know the problems, we have a good idea of what causes it, so adjust and conquer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lockjaw Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Like I said at the beginning of this post, There are things to help with getting it to work right. Standing a million miles away from the boss isn't one of them. your screen shots show inconsistency yes but there are 2/3 of the people that are seeing the right thing. If you see you're the only on not in a group, you're latency is slowest and YOU need to move. Its bugged, broken, frustrating and dumb but it's clearable. We know the problems, we have a good idea of what causes it, so adjust and conquer. Interestingly enough, on the videos and screenshots, Oblivion and Xyzan were seeing the cross in the same place (and the same place as Hayward), so the assumption was that Lock's cross (my cross) was wrong, so I started ignoring the visual location of my cross, and just standing on Xyzan and Oblivion, and we were still failing. Overall it seemed to be extra bad this evening. I agree that it is passable (and we did pass it that night - mostly due to a heavy amount of healing), however at a certain point with a significant level of inconstancy, even properly "adjusting" results with a failed cross. The most humorous part to me is that people are assuming that latency is causing the crosses to be perceived in different spots. Our raid group plays on an EST server. People on the east coast (with lower latency) are consistently seeing the cross in the same place as those playing on the west coast (with relatively higher latency), and those with moderate to low latency are seeing the cross in the "wrong spot". So I'm not so sure that the hypothesis of latency is even the root of the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namesaretough Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) The best way to handle the cross continues to be to try to position so the boss doesn't have to move or rotate after jumping to cast the cross. We've resorted to all standing at the same rock, everyone eating the knockback (no entrench, hydraulics, etc), let the boss jump to the cluster, and no one move off the tank with aggro until the cross is cast. It's a huge pain, but it's the most consistent way we've found. Good luck ever organizing that in a pug, though . Edited January 20, 2015 by namesaretough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NogueiraA Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 One more week playing this bugged crap. Thanks Bioware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Gorlock- Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 The cross is completely irrelevant where it is, as it is nothing more than a decal to show where you should stand, but when it is off the mechanics are not. Just stand where you would normally stand, behind, front, left, right of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuffandthat Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I'm getting sick of the Devs ignoring these issues and going completely silent. A simple post saying "Hey, we're working on a fix" would be great. Or, you know what would be even better? If they would just fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Gorlock- Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I'm getting sick of the Devs ignoring these issues and going completely silent. A simple post saying "Hey, we're working on a fix" would be great. Or, you know what would be even better? If they would just fix it. Alright, become a programmer for them and fix it then. See how easy it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpickard Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Fixing it may be very difficult, but what would be very simple and good courtesy to their customers would be if they wpuld simply acknowledge it. They had the time to acknowledge some bug about dark projects, but not any of the bugs in the new operations. Typical of their crap communication, I know, but still irritating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankLee Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Like I said at the beginning of this post, There are things to help with getting it to work right. Standing a million miles away from the boss isn't one of them. your screen shots show inconsistency yes but there are 2/3 of the people that are seeing the right thing. If you see you're the only on not in a group, you're latency is slowest and YOU need to move. Its bugged, broken, frustrating and dumb but it's clearable. We know the problems, we have a good idea of what causes it, so adjust and conquer. We have been doing this for weeks. It was however impossible last night. The boss and cross weren't a 'little' off of one another, they were half a map away from each other. We tried piling up behind the same rock (which was a 1-shot strategy last week, 0 deaths, 0 issues) we tried spreading out... no dice. The best luck we had was ignoring the cross altogether, and pretending there was an invisible cross with the 6 o'clock position on the main tank, and situating there. The cross mechanic is absolutely stupid. The same thing could be accomplished by dividing a circle into 4 sections and requiring the same placement - but it would be far more forgiving of latency and position reporting errors. This... this is garbage that should never have left the test environment. It could also be done with the tight cross mechanic but putting that particular segment in a location in time that was not directly after guaranteed motion. If it was instead after a long stationary period whereby the 8 or 16 client machines would have the greatest chance of synchronization. Ie, he does the kickback and removes the stones, but does the cross from his present location, rather than approaching one group, leaping to the other, and walking back. The same cross could be just dropped wherever he did his scream, and provide the same mechanic. It would still require the players to know where to stand, and actively move to get there. It would also still allow him to do that mechanic from anywhere in the room. Let him do his buggy movement AFTER the cross. Both the Coratanni and Underlurker fights feature atypical scripting and mechanics. Both are riddled with breakdown locations. I'm all for new kinds of fights, multistage fights, fights with interesting mechanics... but those things have to demonstrably function a high percentage of the time. These are the opposite - they fail a high percentage of the time with the presumably correct mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackopsranger Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Perhaps they should switch from a cross to 4 circles based only on roles so tanks would go to one dps to another and healers to another, it would be a similar mechanic but i think it would be easier in lag situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyara Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Best way for my guild to kill him because of the problems with the cross (we have the same issues at TOFN) is stacking all the raid under his butt and heal through damage with areas. (SM)Easy way atm until BW fixes him... /shrug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintics Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 We make it so..... So long BW say that "Underlurker works fine and is fixxed", we do so, then ends this OP after Second Boss..... Yesterday we wipe some times with PERFECT positioning of our players *gruml* Regards and this sh.... Boss reminds me to SOA ^^ in Hardmode in the first half year after release.... Wintics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJOhio Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Looks like Underlurker is NOT fixed. Yesterday we encountered number of issues (we have cleared him before). To summarize: 1. Cross turning green and red at the same time and us failing 2. Cross turning red, even when the we made sure we were bunched together so the Underlurker does not move. We all were in correct positions, but different players see the cross in different positions. 3. Crosses coming way too early - even before we could kill the 2nd add. Our dps did not change from last week - our dps were parsing same or better numbers than previous weeks on the same fight. I think one of the issue could be server latency that may be causing the positioning to be registered incorrectly. As the previous poster said - it is deja vu all over again (SoA fight anyone?). I am confident that devs will definitely be able to fix this fight by Christmas 2015 (unless, of course, they are pulled for cartel market work). Edited January 22, 2015 by KJOhio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAAAAAJKKRRYZZ Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The sad truth is you just have to heal more or defensive CD to get through it. It's capitalizing on the RNG when it works, and everyone stacking on the person with the least latency (we've found that helps as far as cross position is concerned). I have no desire to play a game where you have to capitalize on RNG when the game decides it feels like working. But in the end you are correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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