The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[Beniboybling]

So, my Revan post is almost ready, but I need one thing confirmed real quick. I put in a fair bit of time dismissing Rayla's arguments for Kun. After everything that's happened with her in the past, and her constant hate for the forum (revealed on KMC and in private) can we just ignore her arguments outright so I don't have to waste time finishing writing that?

 

I'm sure everyone here would like to see what I have written supporting Revan.

Well I'm sure if Lady believes us to be "morons" and this list a "laughing stock" she no longer has any interest in participating. So be all means, whatever gets it out faster. Edited October 18, 2015 by Beniboybling

[raandomname]

KMC

Well that thread escalated quickly.

[cs_zoltan]

So, my Revan post is almost ready, but I need one thing confirmed real quick. I put in a fair bit of time dismissing Rayla's arguments for Kun. After everything that's happened with her in the past, and her constant hate for the forum (revealed on KMC and in private) can we just ignore her arguments outright so I don't have to waste time finishing writing that?

 

I'm sure everyone here would like to see what I have written supporting Revan.

 

Awww, that's actually sad. Reply to her argument as a gesture of good will?

[Aurbere]

Awww, that's actually sad. Reply to her argument as a gesture of good will?

 

If that is necessary. I'm also considering the idea of pushing for Revan over people higher up on the list, so that'll delay things.

[Jarons]

Well that thread escalated quickly.

I agree it did and I always thought he was a she.

 

What's not sil going to tell us he really not a Droid.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Jarons

[cs_zoltan]

If that is necessary. I'm also considering the idea of pushing for Revan over people higher up on the list, so that'll delay things.

 

https://media.giphy.com/media/xgwMES0or8qWs/giphy.gif

[Silenceo]

I agree it did and I always thought he was a she.

 

What's not sil going to tell us he really not a Droid.

 

 

 

Replace 'Hero' with droid. And 'Gotham' with SWTOR.

 

[cs_zoltan]

If that is necessary. I'm also considering the idea of pushing for Revan over people higher up on the list, so that'll delay things.

 

Actually I changed my mind. I had enough Kun wanking for a lifetime. Poor guy must be more sore than me when I found internet ****.

[DudeinFlames]

So, my Revan post is almost ready, but I need one thing confirmed real quick. I put in a fair bit of time dismissing Rayla's arguments for Kun. After everything that's happened with her in the past, and her constant hate for the forum (revealed on KMC and in private) can we just ignore her arguments outright so I don't have to waste time finishing writing that?

 

I'm sure everyone here would like to see what I have written supporting Revan.

Post it anyway. I want to see it and the response. I personally haven't seen anything from most of you guys in a while.

[tunewalker]

Going to say that personally I am still leaning Exar kun, cus I remember some one saying that he was the most powerful character Anderson made, and considering Anderson made Kyp and I honestly think if we put Kyp's feats side by side with Vader, Revan and StarKiller that Kyp is greater then all of them and Jaina is greater then that, that by default Exar kun is stronger then all of them as well.

 

Sorry but Singularity> Star Destroyer, and any claim to the opposite is just obstinate, and in all honesty his other feats, (Jaina's as well) arent really all that far off of what we see from the likes of Vader, Revan or Starkiller in those other areas either, at least not from what I am looking at, I think people over blow some feats a little to much, and undermine others a little to much, but that's just me. We are never REALLY going to have a "Real" list since most of this is going to get retconned anyway.

[cs_zoltan]

if we put Kyp's feats side by side with Vader, Revan and StarKiller that Kyp is greater then all of them and Jaina is greater then that, that by default Exar kun is stronger then all of them as well.

 

Sorry but Singularity> Star Destroyer, and any claim to the opposite is just obstinate

 

http://replygif.net/i/1385.gif

[cs_zoltan]

While we wait for Aurbere, as usual, I've seen a quote that needs addressing.

 

This is all part of the plan. "Yeah, yeah, you know, he caught me off guard once. I'll let him beat me this time so he takes me captive."

—Far, Far Away: Episode VIII: Sam Witwer

 

So what everyone thinks?

 

My opinion that it's hardly canon, but more importantly it's not supported by the novel.

 

 

Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.

 

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

 

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

 

Juno lying limp in his arms.

 

The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power.

 

Juno-dead.

 

He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her?

 

The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind. He turned in midair and landed on his feet. An instant later he was leaping upward again, his face a mask of determination.

—The Force Unleashed II Novel

 

 

In that instance Starkiller could've killed Vader. This is not the evidence of him not holding back, but the presence of the Dark Apprentice, whom Vader had standing by in case Starkiller tried to kill him.

 

"Juno!"

 

She heard the furious despair in Starkiller's voice, and understood that he was fighting for her, and losing.

 

"Bow before me, " Vader repeated, "or she dies. "

 

Don't, she wanted to say. Don't do it. You've been down that path before. You know where it leads you. But she couldn't speak. She could barely even see him. Black dots were crowding out her vision as her oxygen-starved optic nerve began to fail. Don't let hint trick you again.

 

He couldn't possibly hear her, but she suspected it wouldn't make any difference. In his shoes, she would be tempted to give in, too. After all they had been through, after all they might have been but had been denied, they at last had a second chance. Arguably that was worth more than any political movement or philosophy. So long as they survived, their love would survive. Nothing else mattered.

 

She understood, but she felt no relief as Darth Vader's terrible grip loosened and she fell painfully to the ground. Cool air rushed into her lungs. She coughed as though retching, feeling pain all along her windpipe.

Over the sound of her hacking and wheezing, she heard two metallic clinks and looked up to see what had happened.

 

Starkiller had deactivated his lightsabers and thrown them at Vader's feet. They rolled across the rooftop, their residual hear making the raindrops steam. Her vocal cords were red raw. Juno could only shake her head as Starkiller rook three steps forward, and went down on one knee at Darth Vader's feet.

 

"I'll do your bidding, " he said. "Just promise me you'll never hurt her again. "

"That, " said Vader, "depends entirely on you. "

 

Starkiller bowed his head, and Juno fought the urge to weep. She understood the dark place from which his capitulation had come, but submission to Darth Vader was not the way to save her. That way lay nothing but more separation and death. And betrayal. And murder.

 

She had to find the strength somehow to free Starkiller-just as he, clone or original, had somehow fought his way back from the dead in order to find her again. Her desperate gaze caught sight of one of Starkiller's lightsabers. It had rolled in her direction and lay just out of her reach. If she was quiet, she might just be able to reach it.

 

The equation was very simple, really. Once before, she had abandoned her entire life for Starkiller. She could easily abandon this one too if it meant saving him from the horrible fate he had just accepted, thinking that it would save her.

 

Vader's back was to her, and Starkiller's head was still bowed.

 

She raised herself to hands and knees and reached out for the lightsaber.

 

"You will find and kill General Kota, " Vader said. "If you refuse, the woman dies. "

 

Starkiller said nothing. Maybe he nodded, but Juno couldn't see him. Vader had placed himself firmly between them once again, symbolically as well as physically.

 

"You will return to me and give yourself to the dark side, " Vader went on. "If you resist, she dies. "

 

The warm metal hilt slid into Juno's hand. She lifted it gently, afraid of making any noise at all, and raised herself to her knees. This was the first time she had held a lightsaber. She knew all too well that it was probably going to be her last.

 

"And when your training is complete, " Vader said, "you will hunt down and execute the Rebel leaders. "

 

Still winded and aching from head to foot, Juno rose unsteadily to her feet, feeling for the lightsabers activation switch and hardly daring to take her eyes off Vader's back as she did so. They were less than two paces apart.

 

"If you fail, she dies. "

 

She pressed the activation switch at the same instant she lunged. The bright blue blade sprang to life with a startling hiss, but she didn't let herself be distracted. She had used vibroblades in her training days; she knew how to wield a sword. It was even simpler than the point-and-shoot quip about blasters. She stabbed at Vader's back, raking the one chance she had left to reclaim her life with Starkiller. For an instant, she thought it might actually work. Vader's attention was firmly on Starkiller, and the sounds of battle provided effective cover. What was one more energy weapon over the hundreds in play in the facility?

 

At the last instant, however, some arcane instinct must have warned him. He turned with inhuman speed. She could barely credit her eyes-black holes didn't spin so fast. The tip of Starkiller's lightsaber grazed the front of his chest panel, producing a shower of sparks.

 

She felt no resistance.

 

Then he pushed her in exactly the same way Starkiller had pushed the stormtroopers. She felt as though the world moved out from under her, sucking all the air away with it. The lightsaber fell from her hand, and suddenly she was flying. Her head snapped forward, and the rain boiled around her. The air itself seemed to hurt, she was moving so fast. Vader receded into the distance with uncanny speed.

—The Force Unleashed II Novel

 

 

Now this is more telling. If not for Juno's intervention Vader would've gotten exactly what he seemingly wanted. If it was all just a charade, it's unnecessarily overcomplicated.

 

 

Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time... but a stalemate seemed unavoidable. Any move he made was sure to lead him to an indefensible position.

 

Then it occurred to him. An indefensible position was exactly what he needed.

 

He lunged. Darth Vader saw him coming and swiped with unbearable strength, sending Starkiller's left lightsaber flying in pieces. Starkiller lunged again, and his right lightsaber joined his left. He fell back, beaten, and stared up at his former Master.

—The Force Unleashed II Novel

 

 

And lastly this. If Vader wanted to get captured, and he was holding back, then why did he held back just enough to force a stalemate? He had his Dark Apprentice. He didn't have to fear death. So why not dial a bit more back, and let Starkiller beat him legit?

 

It doesn't make sense, and that's why I think that Sam Witwer quote doesn't matter. Thoughts?

[Beniboybling]

Interesting that you should bring this up, as it has been on my mind as well. However I disagree, and really it depends on what you interpret Witwer to mean. Really in the contexts of a commentary "its all part of the plan" is pretty vague in terms of specifics, but I think it has merit. I agree with you that this was not Vader's original plan, but I always assumed he allowed himself to be taken captive. First of lets take a look at Vader's defeat:

Thinking of Wedge Antilles, he said, "I make my own chances. "

 

With both hands he sent a wave of lightning into the sparking gash Juno had made in Vader's chest plate.

 

The Dark Lord staggered backward, transfixed by the unexpected retaliation. Starkiller leapt to his feet and followed him, keeping up the lightning attack and using telekinesis to rip Vader's lightsaber from his temporarily weakened fingers. Sheers of energy spread our across the wet rooftop. Smoke and steam rose up in a tortured spiral. The grating whine of Vader's respirator rook on a desperate edge.

 

He went down on one knee. Starkiller stood over him. Vader's lightsaber swept into his former apprentice's hand. The blade came to rest at his throat.

 

Starkiller stared into the black mask, breathing heavily. One twitch of the blade and Vader would be dead at last.

 

"Wait, " said a voice from behind him.

 

--Taken from The Force Unleashed II novelisation

What I thought was interesting about this scene was that Vader doesn't resist, yes Vader is legitimately caught off-guard and dealt a critical blow, but this really shouldn't be enough to do anything but stun him.

 

And in fact in the DS ending, Vader gets right back up without any indication of injury (labored breathing etc.):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq6H32ssn0c&t=1m57s

 

I find it very unlikely that Vader couldn't have fought back in this instance, and continued fighting. As for the notion that Vader was holding back throughout the duel? I think there is evidence for that too.

Vader made no move to defend himself when Starkiller reached the very top of the cloning tower. Determined to prove him wrong, Starkiller didn't waste time announcing his intentions. He just lunged. Only at the very last moment did Vader raise his blade to block the blow, and even then the move seemed almost casual, disinterested. Starkiller struck again, with both lightsabers. Vader blocked one blade and used telekinesis to throw the other off target. The platform buckled and twisted, sending Starkiller flying.

 

He rolled and leapt, and came up swinging. Covered in blood-the blood of his fellow clones-and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus. Vader was still testing him; he sensed that more and more keenly, with every passing moment, but to what purpose he still couldn't tell. Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before.

 

--Taken from The Force Unleashed II novelisation

Vader was capable of waiting until the last possible instant to block Starkiller's attack, and does so with apparent ease, then the second time Starkiller attempts to engage him Vader capably repels his attempt.

 

So in their initial engagement Starkiller can't even engage Vader on equal terms.

 

Vader is also described as testing him, for an unknown purpose. More on that later. Altogether though there is an impression that Starkiller isn't really a match for him, that Vader can capably contend with him, and that he's holding back on giving him an @ss whooping for the purposes of testing and assessing his ability.

 

To lend credence to that, we later have Starkiller all but defeated by Vader:

Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.

 

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

 

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

 

--Taken from The Force Unleashed II novelisation

Vader's defenses are described as impenetrable, i.e. Starkiller's offensive is completely ineffective. On the other hand Vader is steadily pushing Starkiller on to the back foot and then "raised his lightsaber to strike him down" i.e. Vader had penetrated his defenses and was about to kill him.

 

Starkiller's only saving face is what he later makes clear is Vader's overconfidence, that he thinks he's won. Which left an opening for Starkiller to exploit. That's hardly proof Vader was going all out, in fact it's proof to the contrary. On the other hand though we know that Vader didn't actually want to kill Starkiller:

Starkiller stared up at the black mask, sure of two things. Vader didn't want to kill him, but not out of mercy or sympathy for his lot. The Dark Lord had invested far too much time and energy in re-creating his former apprentice, and he wouldn't want to throw all that away. Not when he seemed on the verge of victory.

 

--Taken from The Force Unleashed novelisation

So it begs the question as to whether Vader intended to strike him down at all, very likely not, and in that respect he may have deliberately left an opening for Starkiller to exploit (if he was good enough) so that the duel could continue. The presence of the Dark Apprentice only puts him in a position to take such risks (although there is no concrete proof Starkiller could have actually killed him) Again he's testing him, pushing him to his limits but falling short of killing him. Fact remains though that Vader was in a position to deal a killing blow, so clearly he can beat him, if he wanted to.

 

In there second engagement I feel we can draw some similar implications, first of all we have this:

A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward.

 

Instead of pursuing the attack, Starkiller went to go to Juno, but once again Darth Vader stood in his path.

 

"Get out of my way. "

 

"Your feelings for her are not real, " Vader said, nor moving.

 

"They are real to me. "

 

Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.

 

--Taken from The Force Unleashed II

So we have at one moment, in a burst of rage that catches Vader off-guard, he actually almost breaks through his defenses. But the second time he attempts to attack, now that Vader is prepared, he is instead driven back.

 

I'd also highlight a moment in the game where Vader actually Force grips Starkiller mid-duel:

 

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/4721032-3759904972-47193.gif

 

Yes Starkiller's training is incomplete, yes he is young and inexperienced and so we shouldn't be surprised that his Force barriers aren't all that. But he is still very powerful, and very skilled, and usually Force sensitives can only Force grip those that they are significantly more powerful than them. So its pretty compelling evidence.

 

Later in the duel Starkiller & Vader are described as contending as equals for an extended period of time. Indicating parity between the two, but that only continues until Starkiller ticks Vader off:

"The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor, " Starkiller said. "Why not work with them rather th-?"

 

Vader attacked before he could finish the sentence, a blistering combination of blows that left Starkiller on his back foot. Clearly he had hit a very deep nerve. For a fleeting moment, the plan had seemed almost inspired. With Darth Vader on Kota's side, what couldn't the Alliance accomplish?

 

But it was a dream. The Rebels would never trust the Emperor's apprentice, and Vader was making it very clear that he wanted no part of it either. The vehemence of his response left no doubt about that.

 

Starkiller found himself backed up almost to the edge of the cloning spire's roof. One more step, and he would fall, and to fall would give Vader the high ground. That might not result in his death, but it would certainly end the fight.

 

It needed to end now, or else it might never end.

 

Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time... but a stalemate seemed unavoidable. Any move he made was sure to lead him to an indefensible position.

 

--Taken from The Force Unleashed II novelisation

At one moment Starkiller and Vader are contending as equals, in the next Vader has Starkiller on the back foot, with Vader almost succeeding in driving him off the edge. And Starkiller sees no way out that would not lead to defeat. Pretty strong indicating that Vader was holding back, and could have chosen to end the duel at any time if he wanted.

 

And as before, Starkiller only manages to defeat Vader due to his overconfidence.

 

Why did he decide to end it then? Because persuading Starkiller to join him was getting nowhere, the fact that Starkiller was making his own offers pretty clearly demonstrated he still felt he had options, so Vader attempted to force him into a position where he had no options at all.

 

My interpretation? Well taking into account what Witwer says I think Vader was holding back his full strength, in order to prolong the duel and test Starkiller's abilities, and also to push Starkiller into giving in to the dark side, and letting go of Juno. Vader wanted to see if Starkiller was worthy, and willing to serve, and if he wasn't, the Dark Apprentice would kill him and take his place. That required Vader to not kill Starkiller, and therefore hold back, allowing himself to be captured was simply Vader's continued reluctance to reveal his true strength, now that he had a new opportunity.

 

In this respect though, once Vader reached the Rebel Base, the gloves would be off. Starkiller in this duel pretty much demonstrated that he wasn't prepared to join Vader, even when pushed into the most desperate situation. So considering he had the Dark Apprentice it's unlikely he'd bother holding back any more, which is what Witwer says:

"But there was definitely moments where Starkiller faces off very cocky against Vader, maybe near the beginning of the game, and Vader *houses* him. And he says "how are you doing this?" And he's says "I'm Darth Vader."...

 

...that Vader had been gaming him, quite a bit."

 

--Taken from Far, Far Away: Episode VIII (1:20:40)

No what Witwer says is not canon, but it's very revealing in terms of authorial intent, and gives us a pretty strong interpretation of an engagement which in the end is very interpretable. In which there are actually moments where Vader appears to "house" Starkiller, and does indeed appear to be "gaming him", which is the important take away.

 

Personally I'm still leaning towards Vader, the only thing Starkiller has going for him is his uber-impressive feats, but Vader is getting more and more impressive displays that prove he is more than capable of matching them. I feel like Starkiller has a lot of raw power, and more raw potential than Vader, but in terms of the power he has at his command I think that Vader outclasses him in this respect, and Vader only got stronger in the ensuing years.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Honestly though can we just succumb to the hype? Vader can apparently *house* a guy who can disintegrate frigates.

[Beniboybling]

Going to say that personally I am still leaning Exar kun, cus I remember some one saying that he was the most powerful character Anderson made, and considering Anderson made Kyp and I honestly think if we put Kyp's feats side by side with Vader, Revan and StarKiller that Kyp is greater then all of them and Jaina is greater then that, that by default Exar kun is stronger then all of them as well.

 

Sorry but Singularity> Star Destroyer, and any claim to the opposite is just obstinate, and in all honesty his other feats, (Jaina's as well) arent really all that far off of what we see from the likes of Vader, Revan or Starkiller in those other areas either, at least not from what I am looking at, I think people over blow some feats a little to much, and undermine others a little to much, but that's just me. We are never REALLY going to have a "Real" list since most of this is going to get retconned anyway.

Kyp's "feat", you have one feat that potentially puts Kyp above the likes of Vader, Revan etc., but considering his standard abilities are nothing they couldn't accomplish, on what basis are you assuming they can't do this too?

 

Who lifted the biggest rock is not how this works my friend, and for good reason.

[cs_zoltan]

Personally I'm still leaning towards Vader, the only thing Starkiller has going for him is his uber-impressive feats, but Vader is getting more and more impressive displays that prove he is more than capable of matching them. I feel like Starkiller has a lot of raw power, and more raw potential than Vader, but in terms of the power he has at his command I think that Vader outclasses him in this respect, and Vader only got stronger in the ensuing years.

 

Not in TFU II, I believe. Your case for Vader holding back was a good one and I concede, but let's not forget how severely handicapped Starkiller was. That might make up for Vader holding back, but also for Vader being pre-prime? No, I wouldn't go that far.

 

Well that is if you stand by your stance of Vader being prime in RotJ (legends), not ANH (canon).

Edited October 25, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[Beniboybling]

Not in TFU II, I believe. Your case for Vader holding back was a good one and I concede, but let's not forget how severely handicapped Starkiller was.

The handicap is unquantifiable though in terms of how exhausted he was, that and I can bring up precedence of Force users "healing to full" mid-combat. So I wouldn't be so sure that Marek was not at full strength here.

 

As for him being distracted, I feel this would only limit his offense, but not the defenses Vader pushed through. Bearing in mind that Vader appears to defeat him before Juno even comes into the equation.

 

Altogether considering Witwer states that Vader could have tooled him when presumably he was at full strength, I would put too much stock in Starkiller being handicapped, when the notion is speculative.

Well that is if you stand by your stance of Vader being prime in RotJ (legends), not ANH (canon).

I do, on the basis that Vader's prime isn't ANH in Canon anyway. The source that originates from isn't even official and the statement itself is non-specific. Vader is clearly at the top of his game, but that doesn't mean he plateaud.

[cs_zoltan]

The handicap is unquantifiable though in terms of how exhausted he was, that and I can bring up precedence of Force users "healing to full" mid-combat. So I wouldn't be so sure that Marek was not at full strength here.

 

As for him being distracted, I feel this would only limit his offense, but not the defenses Vader pushed through. Bearing in mind that Vader appears to defeat him before Juno even comes into the equation.

 

Altogether considering Witwer states that Vader could have tooled him when presumably he was at full strength, I would put too much stock in Starkiller being handicapped, when the notion is speculative.

 

It's not any more speculative than Anakin being hindered on Mustafar.

[Beniboybling]

It's not any more speculative than Anakin being hindered on Mustafar.

Nah, it's stated that Vader was "between worlds", so he was definitely handicapped.

 

Not that I'm saying that speculative = wrong, only that speculation can be challenged, and has been by Witwer.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

Vader toying with Starkiller doesn't contradict him being not at full power. And speculation is kinda what we have to do in this thread.

[Beniboybling]

Vader toying with Starkiller doesn't contradict him being not at full power. And speculation is kinda what we have to do in this thread.

In the respect that Vader could have apparently housed him when he was? Pretty strong indicates it was negligible.

 

Anyway this isn't that important if we accept ROTJ Vader > Starkiller.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Beniboybling

[cs_zoltan]

Anyway this isn't that important if we accept ROTJ Vader > Starkiller.

 

On that we agree.

[tunewalker]

Kyp's "feat", you have one feat that potentially puts Kyp above the likes of Vader, Revan etc., but considering his standard abilities are nothing they couldn't accomplish, on what basis are you assuming they can't do this too?

 

Who lifted the biggest rock is not how this works my friend, and for good reason.

 

His "other feats" as I said, put him on the same level as them. For example Kyp's endurance feat as a padawaan where we stuffed HIMSELF into a small space (breaking his own bones to do it) with little to no oxygen with minimal training, surviving just fine. Obviously he would become much stronger as a master then as a Padawan, and already that endurance feat matches pretty much all of the candidates save Vader bringing himself back from the dead.

 

If he can come close to or match in all categories while taking what appears to be a clear edge in another, then we have a reason to believe some one is more powerful right?. He certainly had the potential for it, so it shouldnt be out right dismissed.

Edited October 25, 2015 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Meh, his other feats seem Malgus tier at best. I'm happy to make a comparison though.

 

Any other thoughts on Vader vs Starkiller folks?

[Rhyltran]

Meh, his other feats seem Malgus tier at best. I'm happy to make a comparison though.

 

Any other thoughts on Vader vs Starkiller folks?

 

I lean very slightly towards Vader but I could care less who gets it. My 2cents.

 

By the way Valkorion/Vitiate needs to go up after the events of KOTFE. I think a case can be made for Valkorion > Plagueis.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Rhyltran