The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

[cs_zoltan]

Also they don't want to change Vader's "power level." he'll have reached his full potential by Rebels/ANH. This means that when he fought his duel on kamino it was pre-prime. His prime is during ANH. During ANH he'll be where he was in the EU during ROTJ.

TFU2 was 1 year before ANH in contrast to 5 years before RotJ, and since Starkiller is not canon the rebalancing of Vader's prime does have an affect of Starkiller's placement on this list.

TL;DR before we argue in favor of starkiller versus Vader are we going to move Luke down on the list?

Well that's Beni's call, not sure how he wants to handle canon/legends now that there are actual contradictions.

[Rhyltran]

TFU2 was 1 year before ANH in contrast to 5 years before RotJ, and since Starkiller is not canon the rebalancing of Vader's prime does have an affect of Starkiller's placement on this list.

 

Well that's Beni's call, not sure how he wants to handle canon/legends now that there are actual contradictions.

 

Except that's just it. They said they don't want to change Vader's power level from the EU to the new Canon. So you're going to have to accept that in one year since their duel he reached ROTJ Vader's prime in Disney's Canon. This means what would have originally been a 5 year jump instead happened in a single year. Assuming they understand what his EU power is.

 

To put it simply the EU made Vader as powerful as he is due to Lucas statement. George stated that Vader, by ROTJ, had reached 80% of Sidious when he could have reached 200% of Sidious. Disney doesn't want to change how powerful Vader was in the old medium. So now Vader reaches 80% of Sidious in ANH. He wasn't 80% of Sidious during the fight against Starkiller.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Rhyltran

[cs_zoltan]

Except that's just it. They said they don't want to change Vader's power level from the EU to the new Canon. So you're going to have to accept that in one year since their duel he reached ROTJ Vader's prime in Disney's Canon. This means what would have originally been a 5 year jump instead happened in a single year. Assuming they understand what his EU power is.

 

Why would it be the case? They didn't say that the improvement he did from TFU2 to RotJ is now from TFU2 to ANH. They said the new Vader prime is ANH which makes the TFU2 duel 1 year pre-prime (which is pretty much prime) vs the old 5 year pre-prime.

Starkiller and TFU1-2 is not canon, so they don't have to bother with contradictions. The changes in canon Vader indirectly changes legends Starkiller.

[cs_zoltan]

To put it simply the EU made Vader as powerful as he is due to Lucas statement. George stated that Vader, by ROTJ, had reached 80% of Sidious when he could have reached 200% of Sidious. Disney doesn't want to change how powerful Vader was in the old medium. So now Vader reaches 80% of Sidious in ANH. He wasn't 80% of Sidious during the fight against Starkiller.

 

Soure? There isn't any, it's just your way of thinking it. EU and Canon is separate. There is no canon version of Starkiller, so the canon changes in Vader puts him on a higher lvl.

[cs_zoltan]

You are saying that in new canon Vader jumps from TFU2 lvl to old RotJ lvl in 1 year instead of 5 to accommodate Starkiller, who is a non-canon character. It just doesn't make sense. It's more likely that Vader's prime is in ANH so his TFU2 performance is closer to his prime in the new canon than it used to be.

[Aurbere]

So in new canon Vader's prime is Rebels/ANH, while in the EU it's RotJ. What's it gona be Beni?

 

To be honest, that does contradict canon. And it's an author quote. So, I'm more inclined to go with ROTJ being prime.

[cs_zoltan]

To be honest, that does contradict canon. And it's an author quote. So, I'm more inclined to go with ROTJ being prime.

 

I don't think that's accurate. Canon made pre-ANH Vader stronger, but it balanced it out by moving his prime 4 years sooner. If we take his canon feats into consideration for this list, but we put his prime at RotJ than that's not a canon Vader nor legends Vader. That's an overhyped Vader.

[Rhyltran]

You are saying that in new canon Vader jumps from TFU2 lvl to old RotJ lvl in 1 year instead of 5 to accommodate Starkiller, who is a non-canon character. It just doesn't make sense. It's more likely that Vader's prime is in ANH so his TFU2 performance is closer to his prime in the new canon than it used to be.

 

You misunderstand. I never said it's to accomodate for starkiller. That's just it. The fight with Starkiller never happened in Disney Canon. Vader hit the level he was at in (ROTJ) instead during (ANH). The argument "Vader wasn't at his prime his prime was in ROTJ still applies because instead it's "Vader was not in his prime on Kamino. His prime was in ANH."

 

The reason the argument was used that his prime was ROTJ is because in the EU that WAS his prime. Disney has stated in statements that they're not changing Vader. Vader will be as ****** as he was in the EU. This prime instead is during ANH. I don't see where you're getting that this boosts Starkiller up. It doesn't.

 

You just acknowledged that Vader in ANH is stronger than where he was at in ANH originally. So why would it be unfair to claim "What starkiller fought wasn't a prime vader?"

 

Better argument. Starkiller fought a weaker version of Vader.

 

I'm going to edit this post to clarify better.

 

Disney Vader is not the same as EU Vader which is where the starkiller issues arise. You argue that since he hit his prime sooner that means that Starkiller fought a Vader closer to his prime. However, in the eyes of Disney Starkiller never existed and they never had a fight. This means that Disney Vader was stronger than EU Vader post suit and was rising in power faster than EU Vader. Disney Vader is simply a more powerful version of Vader and this more powerful version of Vader did not fight Starkiller.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Rhyltran

[cs_zoltan]

You misunderstand. I never said it's to accomodate for starkiller. That's just it. The fight with Starkiller never happened in Disney Canon. Vader hit the level he was at in (ROTJ) instead during (ANH). The argument "Vader wasn't at his prime his prime was in ROTJ still applies because instead it's "Vader was not in his prime on Kamino. His prime was in ANH."

 

The reason the argument was used that his prime was ROTJ is because in the EU that WAS his prime. Disney has stated in statements that they're not changing Vader. Vader will be as ****** as he was in the EU. This prime instead is during ANH. I don't see where you're getting that this boosts Starkiller up. It doesn't.

 

You just acknowledged that Vader in ANH is stronger than where he was at in ANH originally. So why would it be unfair to claim "What starkiller fought wasn't a prime vader?"

 

Better argument. Starkiller fought a weaker version of Vader.

 

Your suggesting a drastic alteration to Vader's learning curve. Let's say Vader was 90% in ANH, and 100% in RotJ in legends. That would make him roughly 89% in TFU2. In new canon Vader is 100% in ANH, and you are suggesting that he was still 89% in TFU2. That would make his porgression very steep for no reason at all.

There is no logical explanation for that, and it has no basis other than accommodating your desire for Starkiller staying where he is.

Instead what is more logical is Vader being 100 in ANH and consequently being 99 in TFU2, which would move Starkiller up, because he is not a constant since he is legends only.

[Rhyltran]

Your suggesting a drastic alteration to Vader's learning curve. Let's say Vader was 90% in ANH, and 100% in RotJ in legends. That would make him roughly 89% in TFU2. In new canon Vader is 100% in ANH, and you are suggesting that he was still 89% in TFU2. That would make his porgression very steep for no reason at all.

There is no logical explanation for that, and it has no basis other than accommodating your desire for Starkiller staying where he is.

Instead what is more logical is Vader being 100 in ANH and consequently being 99 in TFU2, which would move Starkiller up, because he is not a constant since he is legends only.

 

No. It would be 89% in TFU2 because the fight wasn't taken into consideration. The very reason why you're saying the steep curve makes no sense is why it does make sense. It's because his learning curve and progression is completely different from EU Vader. Disney Vader is NOT EU Vader. This is where the problem arises in.

 

Disney Vader in ANH is 100%. That's his potential. This is where his prime. Disney Vader is equal to EU Vader who reached 100% in ROTJ. Disney Vader progressed faster than EU Vader and is more powerful. If he didn't encounter Luke he probably would have rivaled Sidious by ROTJ as the Disney Version only got weaker due to his conflicted emotions about his son.

 

Disney Vader > EU Vader.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Rhyltran

[cs_zoltan]

No. It would be 89% in TFU2 because the fight wasn't taken into consideration. The very reason why you're saying the steep curve makes no sense is why it does make sense. It's because his learning curve and progression is completely different from EU Vader. Disney Vader is NOT EU Vader. This is where the problem arises in.

 

That literally makes no sense. If they don't take TFU2 into consideration then the steep power progression is not just unnecessary, but unexplained as well. Why would Vader suddenly be so much better?

 

What you say would only make sense if they DO take TFU2 into account. If they don't then the jump between 1ABY and 0BBY would be inconsistant.

[Rhyltran]

That literally makes no sense. If they don't take TFU2 into consideration then the steep power progression is not just unnecessary, but unexplained as well. Why would Vader suddenly be so much better?

 

What you say would only make sense if they DO take TFU2 into account. If they don't then the jump between 1ABY and 0BBY would be inconsistant.

 

They don't take TFU2 into account.

 

Writers: Vader will be every bit as powerful as he was in the EU. His new prime is in ANH.

 

Ergo Vader's top EU capabilities are matched by Disney's Vader in ANH. Disney's Vader simply learned quicker and is more powerful than the EU Version.

 

Disney Vader > EU Vader. Disney's version is simply stronger and grows faster.

 

It's not inconsistent because it never happened.

 

You're caught up trying to make Starkiller versus Vader make sense but you're going about it by comparing two different characters. EU Vader is not Disney Vader. Trying to claim that Disney Vader could only be ___ because in the EU he was at ___ during ANH is folly because Disney Vader doesn't have to play by the same rules as vice versa.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Rhyltran

[cs_zoltan]

They don't take TFU2 into account.

 

Writers: Vader will be every bit as powerful as he was in the EU. His new prime is in ANH.

 

Ergo Vader's top EU capabilities are matched by Disney's Vader in ANH. Disney's Vader simply learned quicker and is more powerful than the EU Version.

 

Disney Vader > EU Vader. Disney's version is simply stronger and grows faster.

 

It's not inconsistent because it never happened.

 

Which makes the Kamino duel 4 years closer to Vader's prime. And since they don't take TFU2 into account it moves Starkiller up compared to Vader.

[Rhyltran]

Which makes the Kamino duel 4 years closer to Vader's prime. And since they don't take TFU2 into account it moves Starkiller up compared to Vader.

 

No it doesn't because he fought a different character.

[cs_zoltan]

No it doesn't because he fought a different character.

 

Unless they remake ANH no he didn't.

 

Look at it this way:

 

1 month before ANH Canon Vader > 1 month before ANH Legends Vader

ANH Canon Vader > ANH Legends Vader

1 month after ANH Canon Vader > 1 month after ANH Legends Vader

2 years after ANH Canon Vader = 2 years after ANH Legends Vader

RotJ Canon Vader < RotJ Legends Vader

 

You arbitrary draw a line at TFU2 to suit your agenda. There's only 1 Vader, with different interpretation. If you think Starkiller didn't fought Canon Vader, then this list doesn't make sense and would have to be separated by canon and legends.

[Rhyltran]

Unless they remake ANH no he didn't.

 

Look at it this way:

 

1 month before ANH Canon Vader > 1 month before ANH Legends Vader

ANH Canon Vader > ANH Legends Vader

1 month after ANH Canon Vader > 1 month after ANH Legends Vader

2 years after ANH Canon Vader = 2 years after ANH Legends Vader

RotJ Canon Vader < RotJ Legends Vader

 

You arbitrary draw a line at TFU2 to suit your agenda. There's only 1 Vader, with different interpretation. If you think Starkiller didn't fought Canon Vader, then this list doesn't make sense and would have to be separated by canon and legends.

 

Which is something I supported when I made my first post. You're right. Starkiller didn't fight Canon Vader. That's the point I'm making.

 

Disney has stated that their Vader is NOT weaker than the EU Vader and he's every bit as strong. This means when Disney Vader reaches his max, which is during ANH, he is a match for ROTJ Vader in the EU. If he isn't then this doesn't make any sense because it makes Disney's claims of their Vader being a match for EU Vader wrong.

 

You then go on to argue that this doesn't make sense because how could he have risen so far in one year since his fight with starkiller? It's really simple but it's not something you want to admit. It's because in Disney Canon there is no Starkiller. There never was and probably never will be. Disney's Vader from the moment he put on the suit was stronger than where EU Vader was at. As he learned the suit he was growing faster than the EU Vader was. We don't even know if Cybernetics even limit force ability in Disney Canon and for all we know it probably doesn't.

 

Why? Because Vader was supposed to be at his prime 80% of Sidious and it was supposed to be like that due to his ability being limited from being put in the suit. In Disney Canon this isn't the case. He started getting weaker the moment he realized he had a son because he was conflicted with the idea of killing him. Given how powerful he was by ANH it probably isn't much of a stretch to assume if he didn't learn of Luke Skywalker he would have been strong enough to destroy Palpatine on his own by ROTJ's timeline.

 

This is the difference between Disney's Vader and EU Vader. They aren't playing by the same rules and that's by Disney's intention. Lucas was there to give advice on the set and he provided them a script for the seventh movie. J.J. Abrams/Disney THREW IT OUT which proves they don't care for Lucas' vision. Disney Vader is NOT EU Vader and does NOT play by the same rules.

 

The Disney Universe will likely play by very different rules than the EU Universe. Did you know according to Disney Windu does NOT know Vaapad? This means he took Sidious down by raw skill. No drawing on his dark side and amping himself up. Things are very different and trying to compare the two universes while still making sense of it is only going to lead to headaches. This list should be a Legends only list.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Rhyltran

[cs_zoltan]

In short: Starkiller beating a 99% Vader instead of 89% is not a contradiction since he is pretty an much independent character in the EU. What is a contradiction however is Vader going from 89% to 100% in 1 year without reason.

[Rhyltran]

In short: Starkiller beating a 99% Vader instead of 89% is not a contradiction since he is pretty an much independent character in the EU. What is a contradiction however is Vader going from 89% to 100% in 1 year without reason.

 

He didn't. Disney Vader would have crushed starkiller in their duel on Kamino. He was already stronger by that point than the EU Version of Vader.

 

Again you don't seem to understand. If Luke never learned how to be a Jedi the Disney version of Vader would have surpassed Sidious. This is not something EU Vader was ever capable of.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Rhyltran

[cs_zoltan]

He didn't. Disney Vader would have crushed starkiller in their duel on Kamino. He was already stronger by that point than the EU Version of Vader.

 

So far you've been saying that 1BBY Legends Vader = 1BBY Canon Vader. I was the one who said otherwise. Starkiller did beat Vader 1 BBY however, since this thread acknowledges legends.

There is no contradiction of legends Starkiller beating canon Vader in 1 BBY. And since Canon Vader > Legends Vader at that time, it makes Starkiller stronger.

[cs_zoltan]

Again you don't seem to understand. If Luke never learned how to be a Jedi the Disney version of Vader would have surpassed Sidious. This is not something EU Vader was ever capable of.

 

I don't see why I should care. Starkiller beat Vader. End of story. If you try to deny that you are in the wrong thread:

This list considers Legends & Canon material to be valid, including old post-ROTJ material and G-Canon statements. However Canon material specifically related to the portrayal of Force abilities takes precedence.

[Rhyltran]

So far you've been saying that 1BBY Legends Vader = 1BBY Canon Vader. I was the one who said otherwise. Starkiller did beat Vader 1 BBY however, since this thread acknowledges legends.

There is no contradiction of legends Starkiller beating canon Vader in 1 BBY. And since Canon Vader > Legends Vader at that time, it makes Starkiller stronger.

 

No it doesn't because Disney Vader would have had better force displays and would have had more speed. This thread can't function like that and make sense. This thread acknowledges legends but I am arguing that it should not acknowledge Disney. They're two different universes with two different rules. Trying to compare them and combine them is folly.

 

If you're going to combine them then you have to accept that ANH Vader had a massive power increase from the EU as since that's his prime he's as powerful as ROTJ Vader. Either way it doesn't change anything. Starkiller fought Vader when he wasn't in his prime.

 

I have nothing against starkiller awhile ago I was in the Starkiller > Vader or Starkiller = Vader camp. I'm just debating because I want to see this list remain EU only and maybe a canon list for later on. I don't want to see Luke dropped below Sidious. That just.. doesn't sit right with me.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Rhyltran

[cs_zoltan]

I have nothing against starkiller awhile ago I was in the Starkiller > Vader or Starkiller = Vader camp. I'm just debating because I want to see this list remain EU only and maybe a canon list for later on. I don't want to see Luke dropped below Sidious. That just.. doesn't sit right with me.

 

Alright, I see where you are coming from. But if we take away Canon Vader feats then Starkiller owns Alter.

Edited October 6, 2015 by cs_zoltan

[Rhyltran]

Alright, I see where you are coming from. But if we take away Canon Vader feats then Starkiller owns Alter.

 

I'd have no problem with this. I just think it's easier to stick with one universe and continuity. I wasn't trying to make it a Starkiller Versus Vader debate. That's been done enough. I was the one who originally proposed just for the sake of ending it to put Vader/Starkiller as an exception to the rule, mark them as equal, and have them share a spot on the list to save ourselves some sanity and put an end to the endless debate.

 

This was, no hidden agenda, keep the continuities separate because all of the contradictions as newer material comes out is going to cause the list to fluctuate/shift so many times that I don't think anyone here will be able to keep it up to date. We're having trouble placing the last two on the list but can you imagine the headache and the debates that will be caused when characters need to change spots? Like if Luke is on Yoda's level who gets the third spot? Is it Luke or Yoda? Arguments are a GO. It's just a pointless headache trying to merge them.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Rhyltran

[cs_zoltan]

My opinion is that separating canon and legends would be the final nail in the coffin for the continuity. And I wouldn't like that.

We'll see what Beni has to say about it all.

[tunewalker]

So where is this quote saying "A New Hope" was the pinicle of Vader's power?

 

As far as I know there are some quotes from Rebel Directors about what they THINK about Vader's prime, but that doesnt over right what RotJ NOVEL says, especially if we are using EU characters here, and legends canon here any way. If they are saying he is more powerful by A New Hope then he was in Rebels or Revenge of the Sith we already know this because of the whole "when I left you I was but the learner" beyond that I see no reason to think anything has changed for the purpose of this thread. We are still taking the Movie Novilezations as to the same highest level of canon as the movies unless they directly conflict with one of the movies which in this case they do not thus Vader's Prime is still RotJ.