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The REAL Most Powerful Force Users - Rebooted

Beniboybling

By Beniboybling
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S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD

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My bad, but in regards to that I also explained why pretty clearly in my analysis, seriously, read it:

 

Exar Kun's mastery over his spirit is profound, but not unprecedented, and ritual assisted. Kun was only capable of transforming into a potent spirit through the borrowed strength of thousands of Massassi, it is impressive however that despite his powers being depleted, he was still able to interact potently with the physical world.

 

Bearing in mind that even Set Harth mastered and used Essence Transfer. I'm sure Vader could manage.

Set Harth transferred his essence into a cloned body. He wouldn't attempt it on living individuals. Even though Harth seems to be mediocre, he demonstrated potential in the field of Sith Sorcery and made effort to compensate his shortcomings in this manner. However, my argument is that Harth's command of Essence Transfer technique does not diminish its significance and impressiveness. This technique have always been one of the most sought after among Sith (or practitioners of the Dark Side in general) and have always been held in high esteem in in-universe context. For example:

 

 

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

 

Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn’t been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah. Bane’s disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual’s consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs.

 

 

Most powerful wielders of Essence Transfer could transfer their essence into living beings (willing or not) such as Vitiate and Abeloth. Harth's actions pale in comparison in difficulty aspect.

 

---

 

Darth Vader's specialty lay in the curriculum of Sith Warrior. He isn't noted for exploring the field of Sith Sorcery to hone his talents in the Dark Side. Otherwise, who stopped Vader from consulting the holocron of Darth Andeddu, learn Essence Transfer and transfer his essence into another body? Given the resources of Galactic Empire, advanced cloning technologies would be at his disposal (if desired) and could benefit his cause in the matters of cheating death. Therefore, it stands to reason that your assumption regarding Vader being gifted in the matters of Sith Sorcery is questionable. I am sorry but Exar Kun have qualitative edge over Vader in these matters.

 

Which is why you can't make assumptions as to his capability to do so.

 

Unless you can prove Odan-Urr could effect/sever Vader, it's a moot point. And considering Vader has been considered a match for the "most powerful of Jedi", and Odan-Urr is past his prime, that seems very unlikely.

Vader is not likely to have an answer for every technique and/or offensive punch of every character in the lore. If not Odan-Urr, someone else might be capable of severing Vader's connection to the Force; someone who is relatively stronger and/or more learned in the ways of the Force, is a safe bet.

 

Kun's feat of tanking Force Sever power from one of its notable practitioners is a qualitative demonstration of his advanced defensive abilities and worth considering in this kind of analysis. Vader's lack of showing in this aspect doesn't justifies exclusion of Kun's feat from analysis. Be fair, Beni.

 

Uh huh right. Fact is Vader has matched Exar Kun pound for pound in every power they share ability in, and you've failed to prove why the abilities Vader hasn't mastered i.e. Essence Transfer, and the abilities Vader is completely untested in, i.e. resistance to Sever Force, are proof of Kun's superiority.

I think that you are smart enough to figure this out yourself. Even if Kun and Vader are at parity in some powers, Kun is still more learned in the ways of the Dark Side and therefore relatively superior Force-user.

 

I can vouch for several.

So far, I am finding Kun's feats more impressive in this spectrum.

 

Well that's good, because that was point I was making. Anakin dominated Dooku as a Force user, proving he was significantly more powerful than him. It's therefore logical to assume that upon becoming considerably more powerful as Vader, he would go on to eclipse Dooku's abilities entirely.

If Vader is indeed as powerful as you are asserting, why didn't he just choke Obi-Wan Kenobi to death on Death Star? Why contend with Kenobi in similar manner as on Mustafar?

 

As for Count Dooku:

 

 

Taken from Star Wars: Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

 

Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.

 

Then he knew.

 

"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.

 

"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.

 

Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening. They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.

 

He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.

 

The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.

 

Anakin ran to the mountain of metal and tried to climb over it. Obi-Wan felt the dark side rise in a crest and then fall, leaving a vacuum behind.

 

"It's no use," he told Anakin. "The Sith is gone."

 

 

Still think that Vader is 'considerably' stronger then Dooku?

 

And because they are contradicted by a myriad of others sources, they are inaccurate.

 

Need I remind you that Yoda didn't launch a single Force-based attack in that engagement? All he did was neutralise Dooku's offense, so the claim that Yoda attempted to defeat him with the Force, is simply untrue in the first place. Noting that the more reliable source, the Complete Star Wars Encylopedia, as opposed to the kids book, only claims neither bested one another, that is true, but it doesn't mean that Yoda could not.

 

You are still not getting it. My argument is about interpretations.

 

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization gives the impression that Vader (as Anakin Skywalker) eclipsed Dooku in power; I disagree with this interpretation. Another source reveals that Palpatine convinced Dooku to grant Skywalker an opportunity to demonstrate his skills, and assured Dooku that if he is overwhelmed, he would intervene. Palpatine informed Dooku that he wanted to convert Skywalker to the Dark Side because he felt that this Jedi would prove to be a useful ally. In reality, Palpatine wanted to replace Dooku with Skywalker as his apprentice but concealed his true intentions from Dooku. Doesn't it makes you curious that Dooku knocked-out Kenobi early on with his Force abilities but lured Skywalker into a strictly melee-oriented clash and even encouraged the Jedi to tap into his hatred?

 

Here:

 

 

Taken from Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil

 

"Long have you watched him," Dooku had said, repeating words Sidious himself had spoken. "Longer than you know, Lord Tyranus. Longer than you know. And the time has come to test him again."

 

"His skills, my lord?"

 

"The depth of his anger. His willingness to go beyond the Force, as the Jedi know it, and to call on the power of the dark side. General Grievous will activate a special beacon that will call Skywalker and Kenobi back to Coruscant, and onto the stage we will set for them."

 

But not to capture them.

 

"You will duel them," Sidious had said. "Kill Kenobi. His only purpose is to die and, in so doing, ignite young Skywalker to tap the depths of his fear and rage. Should you defeat Skywalker easily, then we will know that he is not prepared to serve us. Perhaps he never will be prepared. Should he by some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any

unnecessary embarrassment, and we will have gained a powerful ally. But above all you must make the contest appear real, Lord Tyranus."

 

"I will treat it as if it were my crowning achievement," Dooku had promised.

 

 

---

 

I disagree, from the moment Anakin opens the floodgates Dooku is clearly being overwhelmed:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYT3ctPuVRw&t=2m21s

 

And is defeated in a little over 10 seconds. I'm at a loss as to what you gibberish about ragdolling Dooku is when that doesn't even happen in the novel, and isn't implied to be within Anakin's capabilities by any source.

 

If you can provide one source that doesn't describe the fight as a stomp, by all means provide it. By bringing up inaccurate sources of a different engagement, that's contradict by just about everything else, is hardly compelling.

Covered above.

 

I never said it was. You don't need to be Sidious level to be significantly stronger than Dooku.

 

Although I find it ironic that you're evidence to the contrary is that he was a match for Yoda, despite Yoda being an equal of Sidious who you accept eclipses him. I think I'll call you out on you're hypocrisy.

Indeed! But my point of contention is that Vader isn't significantly stronger then Dooku.

 

Also, what do you have to say about this?

 

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that." (George Lucas)

 

You are taking Lucas's opinion about Luke Skywalker at face value. So....

 

You're focusing on a single source that implies parity between Dooku and Yoda, and ignoring all other sources that show the contrary, and you've completely ignored the fact that Yoda is stated to be Sidious equal, an individual who was capable of ragdolling him with ease. You are engaging in confirmation bias.

Not one but two! One of these is Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia, a source that you tend to take seriously.

+

If memory serves me correctly, I have stated that I do not believe Dooku to be a match for Yoda in Force powers at personal capacity. However, some official sources do imply that Dooku can hold his own against Yoda in a contest of Force powers; on top of this, I have mentioned a feat of Dooku (check the spoilers above) which lends credibility to the argument that Dooku is in the league of Vader in Force powers. I have also pointed out that Dooku's actions on Invisible Hand during his encounter with the Jedi are suspect because of his earlier agreement with Palpatine to give Skywalker the opportunity to demonstrate his skills.

+

You are being selective in what you want to accept among official revelations, yet you accuse me of confirmation bias. You are ignoring official revelations that imply that Dooku could hold his own against Yoda in a contest of Force powers, but let's see if you ignore his feats. My point of contention is that you are overhyping Vader and ignoring other ground realities in your analysis.

 

Disagreeing with you're often outlandish opinions is not biased, learn to tell the difference.

Riiight...see above.

 

He did, but he was also ragdolled by the man who Anakin easily defeated. And countering a Force push in this manner has never been depicted in another source, we have no grounds for assuming this is what parity looks like. Kenobi was evidently far from Anakin's equal, but it appears it's not necessary to be to pull off this feat.

See above.

 

Also, now you are questioning the validity of Kenobi's parity with Skywalker in a contest of Force powers in spite of evidence? Confirmation bias much?

 

It's not a theory, it's a fact:

 

 

Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable.

 

--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

What kind of vulnerability?

 

I'm failing to see what this is supposed to prove.

That they were more or less equals?

 

Emotions that Anakin had yet to get a hold off, making him as stated, vulnerable.

I don't find this argument convincing.

 

Skywalker was indeed troubled by his visions about Padme but this doesn't imply that he was compromised in a duel. Prior to confronting Kenobi, Skywalker assassinated large number of individuals (including the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order) without a problem. While fighting Kenobi, Skywalker was being as fierce as he was against Dooku.

 

You're also ignoring the fact that Kenobi knew Vader's every move.[/color]

So? Darth Venamis knew every move of Darth Plagueis and still failed to tackle the latter.

 

Reason? Plagueis was more powerful.

 

If we cherry pick select sources and ignore the rest? Yes.

Ironic, my friend.

 

But in reality as a Force wielder it's quite obvious he is far more powerful than either of them. You're focus on ragdolling is irrelevant and inconsequential to the point, especially considering Vader has never faced Dooku. Though I'd point out that if Dooku can ragdoll Kenobi, or course Vader can.

Vader have never faced Dooku? I have covered the matter of Dooku above.

 

Now kindly mention a source that asserts that Kenobi is no match for Vader.

 

Again, what you call it is besides the point, it's a red herring.

?

 

Vader is not a practitioner of Battle Meditation technique, period.

 

Vader's mere presence was enough to induce fear into the minds of Imperial workers and troops. This doesn't imply that Vader used some kind of Force power to influence them in this manner. It is absolutely natural to fear someone far stronger then you who also happens to be violent.

 

You mean I countered you're arguments, and you we're unable to rebutt my points.

Your rebuttals aren't satisfactory. While your article is informative and appreciable (credit where due), some of your assumptions in that article are confusing. Explanation below.

 

I don't recall claiming spirits to be all powerful, I recall claiming they had an unlimited ability to channel the Force, but of course they are restricted by how much Force energy they have avaliable to channel, in the first place. I also thoroughly covered why Jedi spirits tend not to effect the physical world in profound ways.

 

Perhaps you'd benefit from reading my blog again.

1. The Force have two major aspects; Cosmic and Living. Cosmic Force is an invisible energy field that exists everywhere in the Universe and Living Force represents midichlorians in living organisms that bind all life to the cosmic Force. Correct?

 

2. Yet, spirits seem to draw energy from the Living Force to manifest, commune with living beings and perform actions in the materialistic realm. Correct?

 

Therefore, I don't get your "unlimited ability to channel the Force" assumption. While spirits of Meetra Surik and Orgus Din manifested on space stations to commune with/help Revan and Hero of Tython respectively, these (Jedi) spirits most likely relied on Force-sensitivity of Revan and Hero of Tython to manifest and assist them respectively. Since Living Force binds all life to the Cosmic Force, it is not surprising that the (Jedi) spirits can manifest in any setting where living beings are present. If I am wrong then kindly provide an example of a (Jedi) spirit manifesting independently in a setting devoid of living beings.

 

Technically, both the Jedi and Sith spirits draw energy from Force-sensitivity of living beings to manifest and influence materialistic realm. However, (Sith) spirits exist against the will of the Cosmic Force and are therefore restricted in their reach to settings strong in the Dark Side.

 

Now one needs to understand that difference between what constitutes as a spirit in strict sense and what constitutes as a disembodied being or entity. Vitiate is an example of a disembodied being or entity; he is not a spirit and the Cosmic Force itself is not the source of his strength. Vitiate has a baseline strength and is a master of Force Drain powers; he siphons energy from other beings or consumes them to fuel his power. You may have noticed that while Kun could not leave Yavin IV after becoming a spirit but Vitiate easily exited Yavin IV after regaining his strength by siphoning energy from the developments in the planet.

 

 

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor

 

Unleashed from his sanctuary on Yavin 4, the former Sith Emperor has now struck the Imperial world of Ziost. Using his immense power in the dark side of the Force, he has dominated the minds of the planet’s Imperial troops--as well as an elite cadre of militaristic Jedi--and has set them against the populace, engaging in a bloody slaughter.

 

 

 

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire

 

Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity with the power to possess and control the bodies of others, using them as puppets to enforce his will on the galaxy. The Immortal Emperor is his latest mask and Zakuul his greatest, most ambitious endeavor: an idealistic playground where he can shed his past and experience a new life unburdened by archaic Sith teachings. A manipulative survivor, Valkorion pinpoints the weaknesses of both friends and enemies alike, twisting them to serve his purpose. He believes the entire galaxy is his to shape and will stop at nothing to reach his goals.

 

 

As for Darth Nihilus, my assumption is that he was in the middle-ground of being an entity and a living Force-user. He transformed into a vessel of hunger and could consume on mass scale as a consequence.

 

For starters this doesn't change the fact that the following remain true:

 

 

  1. They have an unlimited ability to channel the Force without damage to their non-existent bodies, allowing for massive and instant explosions of power that might otherwise injure them.
     
     
  2. The amount of energy they are capable of channeling is equally limitless, meaning they could potentially become more powerful than what they were in live without concern for their bodies being sufficient vessels.
     
     
  3. Their unbound nature makes them much more potent in the fields of mental domination and possession, as opposed to reaching out, they can swallow up their targets with the entirety of their being.

 

So what does it mean? Well it means that we shouldn’t assume that the corporeal and non-corporeal versions of an individual will be the same, if even comparable, in terms of their abilities. Nor should we assume a corporeal being capable of its non-corporeal feats, and therefore should be wary of drawing comparisons between spirits and physical beings, without taking into account their intrinsic qualities.

 

--Taken from my blog on Understanding the Nature of Force Ghosts & Sith Spirits

 

Irrespective of the contexts of each and every Sith Spirit and Force Ghost, some of which you've raised, non-corporeal beings are intrinsically different in how they interact with the Force to corporeal beings. So it's always going to be at best, speculative, to assume that a corporeal being is capable of what they were as a spirit. It's for these reasons that we think it preferable to omit them entirely, and have them stand on the merits of their corporeal feats.

See my explanation above.

 

I understand the difference between a spirit and a living being. However, I find some of your interpretations confusing. A spirit is immortal, but it is dependent upon Force-sensitivity of living beings to influence materialistic realm. A spirit can acquire sufficient energy from a living being to perform impressive feats but this source of strength is temporary. This is why a (Sith) spirit tends to acquire a Force-sensitive body; a virtually permanent source of strength. Look no further then the example and agenda of Kun.

 

Kun was restricted in his ability to call upon the Force as a spirit:

 

 

Taken from Jedi Academy Sourcebook

 

Exar Kun himself possessed a great many other dark powers that he was unable to harness without the energy he needed to fuel his disembodied will. Some of these powers he was able to channel through Kyp, Gantoris, and Streen to achieve his ends.

 

 

- In spiritual form, he was able to perform some feats by drawing strength from Force-sensitivity of living beings. But these gains were temporary and energy acquired would be expended in feats. This is why Kun desired a Force-sensitive body.

 

Yes, at one point, Kun became very powerful in spiritual form, but not a single source asserts that Kun matched his original strength in spiritual form. Similarly, you won't find an example of a spirit that is as strong or stronger then its corporeal form.

 

And frankly if they are incapable of doing that, it suggests a disparity between their physical and spirit forms exist. Nonetheless I'd like to address a few inaccuracies with you're claims that Vitiate and Exar Kun where weakened.

 

In regards to Exar Kun, yes he was initially weak, but he grew powerful on Skywalker's students. Kyp specifically, who not only restored Exar Kun's power, but had his strength augmented by Kun's own:

Over a number of weeks, Kun slowly bends Kyp to his will, and begins to augment his power. He grows very powerful on Kyp's hate, and soon his hold on Kyp is so complete that he can send Kyp beyond the planet to do his will and still retain control over his subject. Ultimately, he has Kyp return to Yavin Four and helps him reclaim the Sun Crusher. He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma.

 

--Taken from Jedi Academy Sourcebook

And in fact, most of the feats Exar Kun performs are done so through Kyp, Kyp being a prodigal Force user:

Back on the Rebel base on Coruscant, Luke Skywalker tested Kyp's Jedi power potential. What he discovered was the strongest presence he had known since his Masters Obi-Wan and Yoda.

 

--Taken from The Essential Guide to Characters

 

He thought about those he had trained: Kyp, so intense and so frighteningly powerful.

 

--Taken from Planet of Twilight

 

Of course, my best was nothing compared to Kyp Durron's best. Kyp's growth in the Force was nothing shy of incredible. In just over a week he surpassed anything the rest of us where doing by light-years. Master Skywalker didn't know what to do with him, he was so good.

 

--Taken from I, Jedi

I'm not about to consider spirit feats featuring Kun at full strength and amped by a very powerful individual.

 

And in regards to Vitiate, really his weakness is irrelevant. As you yourself state he was initially weakened after being defeated by the Hero of Tython, but I'd remind you have an entire year to recover his lost strength on one of the most powerful dark side nexuses in the galaxy, within a Sith Temple, that focused those dark side energies.

 

Fact is though Vitiate doesn't really do anything until he's restored himself to full power. So again, I am not about to consider the feats of spirit at full strength, let alone when performed on a potent nexus, within a focal point of power.

Did Nathema event harm Vitiate?

 

Furthermore, Vitiate did not recover his strength by virtue of his presence on a nexus of the Dark Side. He regained his strength through chaotic developments on the planet.

 

"The scores of dead have nourished me. I am awakened. And I bring with me - death!" (Vitiate)

Edited by S_W_LeGenD
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Rhyltran

Rhyltran

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So in new canon Vader's prime is Rebels/ANH, while in the EU it's RotJ. What's it gona be Beni?

 

Yeah, but in the new canon they didn't want to change what Vader is capable of so instead he reached that potential "Sooner." unless I'm mistaken. So it doesn't really change much.

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cs_zoltan

cs_zoltan

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Yeah, but in the new canon they didn't want to change what Vader is capable of so instead he reached that potential "Sooner." unless I'm mistaken. So it doesn't really change much.

 

Well it kinda does, because the argument against Starkiller involved a quite some pre-prime Vader feats. Those feats are prime Vader now.

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Rhyltran

Rhyltran

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Well it kinda does, because the argument against Starkiller involved a quite some pre-prime Vader feats. Those feats are prime Vader now.

 

Except he would be capable of his ROTJ feats if he reached that prime "Sooner." so it wouldn't be relevant. In short before Rebels/ANH suddenly he'll have a major power boost compared to the old that would take until ROTJ. Doesn't make sense? Of course not that's because Disney Canon is different than EU Canon. It's going to be a headache trying to mix the two universes together. I personally think the EU should stick with the EU instead of trying to "merge." or where does Luke Skywalker fall? In interviews he's compared to Yoda. So do we use his EU feats? Or is he now on Yoda's level?

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cs_zoltan

cs_zoltan

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Except he would be capable of his ROTJ feats if he reached that prime "Sooner." so it wouldn't be relevant. In short before Rebels/ANH suddenly he'll have a major power boost compared to the old that would take until ROTJ. Doesn't make sense? Of course not that's because Disney Canon is different than EU Canon. It's going to be a headache trying to mix the two universes together. I personally think the EU should stick with the EU instead of trying to "merge." or where does Luke Skywalker fall? In interviews he's compared to Yoda. So do we use his EU feats? Or is he now on Yoda's level?

 

I'm not sure you understand me (or I you). For example the argument was that Starkiller was better at augmentation than Vader based on their duel on Kamino at the time. But this was offset by the fact that it was pre-prime Vader. Now it's prime Vader, so SK should win that category.

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Rhyltran

Rhyltran

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Posted (edited)
I'm not sure you understand me (or I you). For example the argument was that Starkiller was better at augmentation than Vader based on their duel on Kamino at the time. But this was offset by the fact that it was pre-prime Vader. Now it's prime Vader, so SK should win that category.

 

You're misunderstanding me. You based this off the changes to Vader's character and there's several problems with this.

 

Are we moving Luke down the list because in the new Disney Canon he's going to only be at Yoda's level?

 

Also they don't want to change Vader's "power level." he'll have reached his full potential by Rebels/ANH. This means that when he fought his duel on kamino it was pre-prime. His prime is during ANH. During ANH he'll be where he was in the EU during ROTJ.

 

So my argument has several points of contention. If the answer to the first one is yes then you're in favor of using the new visions of the characters so we're definitely discussing Disney's Vader. If your answer is no and you want to take the best possible Luke Skywalker (the one for the EU) or "Combine" their feats then the second post doesn't need to be argued. We'd assume Starkiller is facing the most powerful incarnation of Vader which makes my second point irrelevant anyway.

 

TL;DR before we argue in favor of starkiller versus Vader are we going to move Luke down on the list?

Edited by Rhyltran
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