The Contraband Slot Machine

[DarthTHC]

Yeah I see, make it so that no one can POSSIBLY get grade 11 mats, unless paying your oulandish prices, basically change the slot machine, so that it benefits YOU.....how noble of you....

 

You don't craft, do you? Do you know the cost to acquire one Midlithe Crystal via missions?

 

I do. And I've told you how much the items they produce could cost if supply were only higher. And those costs are below what people are saying now is just fine.

 

Do you understand that the suggested changes I wrote to mission-running would not alter the cost of the artifact items at all, but would increase their availability about tenfold, encouraging crafters to post more items and undercut each other more aggressively?

 

These slot machines benefit me more than you can imagine. They are so stellarly superior to "the old way" that I've been abusing them like a pre-teen boy who just discovered his "magic wand" abuses it. I rarely participate in broken mechanics, but this is SO BROKEN that I simply have to.

 

Believe me, what I'm asking for is WORSE for me than these slot machines are, but BETTER for me (and all crafters) than the "old way" was, and it really will produce considerably lower prices than existed previously.

Edited January 18, 2015 by DarthTHC

[ivanhedgehog]

Again, you misread that portion of my post. The 100-200% isn't profit margin; it's mark-up. Profit margin is a portion of mark-up. Expenses like labor, facilities, etc., is another, far larger, portion of that mark-up.

 

I have owned retail businesses. you are flat wrong. and slots do not give free mats any more than missions do. the price for deco's has dropped a lot in 2 days. this hasnt been going a week, the devs will want more than 4 days metrics or darththc's masterful analysis before they decide if anything is broken.

[ivanhedgehog]

This thread is starting to sound like that econimics class in Easy Money with Rodney Dangerfeild...

"...then there's the long term costs like waste disposal. I don't know if you're familiar with who runs that outfit, but it ain't the Boy Scouts."

 

that was "back to school"

[DarthTHC]

I have owned retail businesses. you are flat wrong. and slots do not give free mats any more than missions do. the price for deco's has dropped a lot in 2 days. this hasnt been going a week, the devs will want more than 4 days metrics or darththc's masterful analysis before they decide if anything is broken.

 

I've been listing and selling CM personnel for 40-65k all weekend. Oh, wait, 2 more mail items. BRB...

 

Bartender (Male) for 37,472 after GTN fee and Twi'lek Dancer (Female) for 35,719 after GTN fee.

 

Dropping like a rock, yo. They only have to list for 10k to make the whole thing guaranteed profit.

 

The devs know the numbers. They know that the value of the rep items, vendored, reduces the cost of tokens by something around 65%. Could be 63. Could be 67. But it's right in there.

 

They know that CM Certs can be exchanged for Personnel Decorations and what those sell for across each server. What are they selling for on yours, right now?

 

They can do the math. They know the slots generate crafting materials profitably. They did it on purpose, and the reason for it was to generate a ton of hype to drive demand for the slots, which drives demand for the packs, which sells cartel coins.

 

It's simply too good. It's so good that it's required to craft competitively. They will nerf it just as soon as pack sales taper off.

Edited January 18, 2015 by DarthTHC

[RokDalor]

Hey folks,

 

We know that there have been many questions about the Contraband Slot Machine and its intent. Here are a few notes on it:

• 
   
  
• We added the Slot Machine as a fun idea based on the positive feedback from the Nightlife event, so spend those credits to your heart’s content!
  

With that being said, we do hear the concern from many of you around the effects of the Jawa Junk’s drop rate on the economy. We are going to take a look at it and make changes accordingly. I will let you know once I know more. In the meantime, have fun!

 

-eric

 

With that being said, do you have any intention of ever restoring our nightlife event achievements that were wiped out with one of the patches? or can we expect that our time, and credits were forever wasted?

[ivanhedgehog]

I've been listing and selling CM personnel for 40-65k all weekend. Oh, wait, 2 more mail items. BRB...

 

Bartender (Male) for 37,472 after GTN fee and Twi'lek Dancer (Female) for 35,719 after GTN fee.

 

Dropping like a rock, yo. They only have to list for 10k to make the whole thing guaranteed profit.

 

The devs know the numbers. They know that the value of the rep items, vendored, reduces the cost of tokens by something around 65%. Could be 63. Could be 67. But it's right in there.

 

They know that CM Certs can be exchanged for Personnel Decorations and what those sell for across each server. What are they selling for on yours, right now?

 

They can do the math. They know the slots generate crafting materials profitably. They did it on purpose, and the reason for it was to generate a ton of hype to drive demand for the slots, which drives demand for the packs, which sells cartel coins.

 

It's simply too good. It's so good that it's required to craft competitively. They will nerf it just as soon as pack sales taper off.

 

twileck dancers are 15k on shadowlands. if the devs destroy slots to keep the mat barons happy, they will piss off a LOT of players. bait and switch is not something people find acceptable. most people dont care if the mats come from slots, you or the fairy mat jawa. they do know if they spend cash to buy a slot machine that gets nerfed a week later to protect your profit margin. ask the devs at co about that.. taking the ability to get jawa junk from the slots will be shooting themselves in the crotch..play with %atges? maybe. but removal will drop like a lead balloon.

[ivanhedgehog]

With that being said, do you have any intention of ever restoring our nightlife event achievements that were wiped out with one of the patches? or can we expect that our time, and credits were forever wasted?

 

remember, they can track them just like they tracked the exploit users!!

[DarthTHC]

twileck dancers are 15k on shadowlands. if the devs destroy slots to keep the mat barons happy, they will piss off a LOT of players. bait and switch is not something people find acceptable. most people dont care if the mats come from slots, you or the fairy mat jawa. they do know if they spend cash to buy a slot machine that gets nerfed a week later to protect your profit margin. ask the devs at co about that.. taking the ability to get jawa junk from the slots will be shooting themselves in the crotch..play with %atges? maybe. but removal will drop like a lead balloon.

 

15k? They only need to be at 10 to make the scheme profitable.

 

I'm not asking for the destruction of slots.

 

I'm asking for slots to be changed to their apparent purpose, which is CM rep and CM certs, and to leave those at a point that is still profitable, not a cost, for people using them. The slots would still have plenty of value. They would just be CM items instead of Crafting items.

 

On top of that, I'm asking the devs to make changes to the crafting system that makes the rarest materials far more plentiful and easier to acquire (though not FREE and GUARANTEED and NEAR INSTANT).

 

The change I asked for to missions actually harms the "mats barons" as you call them by making it easier to get a whole lot more mats, which will in turn drive crafters to make more things, post more things, and undercut more aggressively to make the sale.

 

I believe that if these slots dropped tokens that eliminated a reason to play your favorite part of the game, the equivalent of completing a flash point or war zone, you would equally want that part of the slots removed, right?

 

Or would it be cool to spin the wheel and get Ultimate Commendations with the same drop rate as Jawa Junk?

Edited January 18, 2015 by DarthTHC

[LordArtemis]

I could get behind this. Crew missions as they are now are the problem with why I have never really bothered with crafting in this game, and that's from a guy who was an absolutely dedicated crafter in SWG, my entire game experience was solely the crafting side of things. Crew missions in this game suck, take too long and the payouts aren't worth it. And take Diplomacy, for example. If I am trying to stick my toon to just light or dark side, then my pool of missions can be halved or even more. With no way to refresh to try and get a better selection that suits my alignment better.

 

Thanks. I feel pretty strongly that missions need to be reworked, have for a while now.

[LordArtemis]

What's "going on with me" is that I think that most of the recent changes are negative, not positive. It's called "disagreement". Don't act like there's something "wrong" with me just because I don't agree with you.

 

As far as using me as a barometer, that's not necessarily a bad idea, but you should probably wait until it's time for me (and others) to renew our subscriptions and see how many people are still here after that before deciding what the readings you are seeing mean. And I'm not saying that in a flippant manner -- the only true way to determine if the changes we are discussing are actually good, bad, or indifferent to the game is to observe how many (and what kind of) players quit or start playing.

 

Fair enough.

[ivanhedgehog]

15k? They only need to be at 10 to make the scheme profitable.

 

I'm not asking for the destruction of slots.

 

I'm asking for slots to be changed to their apparent purpose, which is CM rep and CM certs, and to leave those at a point that is still profitable, not a cost, for people using them. The slots would still have plenty of value. They would just be CM items instead of Crafting items.

 

On top of that, I'm asking the devs to make changes to the crafting system that makes the rarest materials far more plentiful and easier to acquire (though not FREE and GUARANTEED and NEAR INSTANT).

 

The change I asked for to missions actually harms the "mats barons" as you call them by making it easier to get a whole lot more mats, which will in turn drive crafters to make more things, post more things, and undercut more aggressively to make the sale.

 

I believe that if these slots dropped tokens that eliminated a reason to play your favorite part of the game, the equivalent of completing a flash point or war zone, you would equally want that part of the slots removed, right?

 

Or would it be cool to spin the wheel and get Ultimate Commendations with the same drop rate as Jawa Junk?

 

your solution leaves the supply in the hands of the mat barons..and people payed real money for the items to be nerfed.

 

i am fine with ult coms dropping that would be great

Edited January 18, 2015 by ivanhedgehog

[LordArtemis]

This is my suggestion. This is not the only good suggestion posted in this thread, including a pretty good one by DarthTHC....with his permission I am going to compile all of the suggestions into on post so folks can look at them and make up their own minds.

 

For now we will start with mine.

 

This is a repeat on some of things I have said, plus a few new nuggets and updates.

 

1) Increase all resource payouts by 50 percent.

 

2) Increase crit chance by 20 percent.

 

3) Reduce ALL TIMES by 25 percent...crafting, gathering, the whole nine.

 

4) Give us a reshuffle button to refresh the display of missions in the crew mission UI.

 

5) REMOVE THE FAILURE CHANCE from all gathering missions.

 

6) Give ALL GATHERING MISSION TYPES the ability to crit, not just bountiful and rich.

 

7) Alter Legacy of Crafting I, II and III to give 5% each for crafting crit chance, not just 1%

 

8) Add Legacy of Scavenging perk, I, II and III that gives 5% chance to crit on gathering missions. This is in addition to the suggested 20 percent increase across the board. It will also increase the amount returned from gathering, harvesting and slicing nodes by the same amount.

 

Doing all of this will make gathering and crafting much more enjoyable, and certainly more appealing compared to the machine.

 

Reserve the right to add more later. Might add a suggestion to allow us to queue up to 3 more items in the crafting queue.

[DarthTHC]

your solution leaves the supply in the hands of the mat barons..and people payed real money for the items to be nerfed.

 

i am fine with ult coms dropping that would be great

 

My solution leaves the supply in the hands of anyone who wants to run missions, actually play the crafting part of the game, which is clicking a few extra things as you play the PvE or PvP part of the game. Not "mat barons".

 

Would you be ok if a token dropped that gave PvP rank? So I could clicky clicky for a day and have the same rank as someone who's PvP'd for a few months, and I can get that without ever setting foot in a war zone? Click for a week give or take and I get the cool black & pink Rancor mount? And I never have to actually figure out how to survive or defeat someone in PvP?

Edited January 18, 2015 by DarthTHC

[Max_Killjoy]

Again, you misread that portion of my post. The 100-200% isn't profit margin; it's mark-up. Profit margin is a portion of mark-up. Expenses like labor, facilities, etc., is another, far larger, portion of that mark-up.

 

Most retailers also don't have that much markup, and it varies widely depending on the item.

 

The typical $100 inkjet printer cost the store $90+ wholesale.

 

The typical $15 USB cable that gets added on to the purchase cost the store no more than $2 wholesale.

 

That's right -- the store makes about as much on the cable as they do on the printer.

 

(I've worked in purchasing and inventory for almost 15 years, in multiple sectors... the things people don't know about markup are many.)

[Khevar]

"Retail" seems a particularly poor comparison to what happens with crew skills.

 

How many retail outlets manufacture the goods they sell? Or gather the raw materials to make those goods?

 

Honestly, it's hard to think of any real-world comparison. It's more like a small boutique shop that makes its own inventory -- jewelry or something? (Excepting you'd have hundreds of them all making identical versions of the same thing.)

 

/shrug

 

One reason a big retail outlet can survive on a smaller profit margin is by moving a lot of inventory. Smaller shops that make things they sell and don't move as much? They need a higher margin or they'll go out of business.

[Heat-Wave]

Click for a week give or take and I get the cool black & pink Rancor mount? And I never have to actually figure out how to survive or defeat someone in PvP?

 

If that makes you happy, go for it...

 

Your having a black/pink Rancor doesn't affect me in any way. If everyone got one tomorrow, I wouldn't care.

[Max_Killjoy]

If that makes you happy, go for it...

 

Your having a black/pink Rancor doesn't affect me in any way. If everyone got one tomorrow, I wouldn't care.

 

Exactly.

[RahaylaCora]

the only people that benefit from a lower supply are the people looking to get rich off of the mats.

Obtaining materials in this game has been always so easy. Enough for self consume, and probably good enough for extra income to those who like business in the GTN, no matter if materials are green, blue or purple class. Everybody can go out and get the materials and make profit with them. Still those suggestions are unnecessary, even if the slot machine never existed.

 

This is my suggestion. This is not the only good suggestion posted in this thread, including a pretty good one by DarthTHC....with his permission I am going to compile all of the suggestions into on post so folks can look at them and make up their own minds.

 

For now we will start with mine.

 

This is a repeat on some of things I have said, plus a few new nuggets and updates.

 

1) Increase all resource payouts by 50 percent.

 

2) Increase crit chance by 20 percent.

 

3) Reduce ALL TIMES by 25 percent...crafting, gathering, the whole nine.

 

4) Give us a reshuffle button to refresh the display of missions in the crew mission UI.

 

5) REMOVE THE FAILURE CHANCE from all gathering missions.

 

6) Give ALL GATHERING MISSION TYPES the ability to crit, not just bountiful and rich.

 

7) Alter Legacy of Crafting I, II and III to give 5% each for crafting crit chance, not just 1%

 

8) Add Legacy of Scavenging perk, I, II and III that gives 5% chance to crit on gathering missions. This is in addition to the suggested 20 percent increase across the board. It will also increase the amount returned from gathering, harvesting and slicing nodes by the same amount.

 

Doing all of this will make gathering and crafting much more enjoyable, and certainly more appealing compared to the machine.

 

Reserve the right to add more later. Might add a suggestion to allow us to queue up to 3 more items in the crafting queue.

1. Not needed. Each material, for its level, is same or lower price than the crafting materials that you can buy in the crew skill vendors for that material level: average cheap.

 

2. Not needed. Rare materials are rare.

 

3. Not needed. As you raise your level you can send more companions to get more materials, so in the end the time consumed for a level 5 mission is similar to sending one companion for 5 level 1 missions. Of course you don't get the same amount of materials, but materials for more powerful gear takes more time. It is well balanced.

 

4. This is a RPG game. That implies random situations, and so it works the mission list. Good it works this way. What you are proposing is "fit the game to my needs".

 

5. Same as point 4. Random results are good tor this type of games.

 

6. ALL gathering missions actually can reward with a critical result, ALL, even Moderate and Abundant.

 

7. Same as point 2.

 

8. I don't care about legacy perks if we are not forced to use them, so no opinion on this.

 

The only broken things about crafting are:

 

1. Level 6 mission were the top when max level was 50. Someone decided that, for adding difficulty to get the most power gear, Rich and Bountiful missions were not available. Once game raised max level to 55 and beyond keeping that decission has no logic; should have been moved to highest lvl missions, adding Rich and Bountiful to all lower levels. But seems that nobody cared to adjust it and balanced it for the progression.

 

2. Lvl 10 missions is a wrong design. The amount of nodes, and the amount of materials dropped are way higher than previous levels. Inconsistency. About purples rewarded in missions, i can't assure they have changed probabilities for random numbers, but after sending hundreds of missions, clearly looks to me that expected mission returns are worse respect to previous levels.

 

3. Lvl 10 dressing gear. Clearly another wrong design. First, change of names for Blues after reverse engineering, bringing confusion (once used to Critical, Overkill and Redoubt). Same for the reduced amount of purple gear you can discover. Second, the amount of materials for blues and purples have been lowered to just 2 units per mat, when usually you needed hundreds for reverse engineering the blues. This part has been made easier for the player, but breaks again previous design.

 

So the Contraband Slot Machine is like a bless only for getting purple materials in actual state (for own use), as greens are easy to obtain just on the field, and blues are as difficult as usual (not too much). Blues will be cheaper using the slot machine once you get max reputation, as selling the reputation items will give you back a part of the "investment", reducing the total spending per stack. The more materials in the market, lower prices for buyers, and more people better geared for endgame content.

 

In my opinion: no, crafting is not broken and don't need changes (only little readjustments to the new level 10). Changes for the slot machine? In Bioware hands.

[DarthTHC]

This is my suggestion. This is not the only good suggestion posted in this thread, including a pretty good one by DarthTHC....with his permission I am going to compile all of the suggestions into on post so folks can look at them and make up their own minds.

 

For now we will start with mine.

 

This is a repeat on some of things I have said, plus a few new nuggets and updates.

 

1) Increase all resource payouts by 50 percent.

 

2) Increase crit chance by 20 percent.

 

3) Reduce ALL TIMES by 25 percent...crafting, gathering, the whole nine.

 

4) Give us a reshuffle button to refresh the display of missions in the crew mission UI.

 

5) REMOVE THE FAILURE CHANCE from all gathering missions.

 

6) Give ALL GATHERING MISSION TYPES the ability to crit, not just bountiful and rich.

 

7) Alter Legacy of Crafting I, II and III to give 5% each for crafting crit chance, not just 1%

 

8) Add Legacy of Scavenging perk, I, II and III that gives 5% chance to crit on gathering missions. This is in addition to the suggested 20 percent increase across the board. It will also increase the amount returned from gathering, harvesting and slicing nodes by the same amount.

 

Doing all of this will make gathering and crafting much more enjoyable, and certainly more appealing compared to the machine.

 

Reserve the right to add more later. Might add a suggestion to allow us to queue up to 3 more items in the crafting queue.

 

#1 Isn't really needed. We don't need across-the-board resource payout increases. We already have too many blue components. Green components are already essentially free because of the abundance of them available for harvesting on Rishi and Yavin. We just need more artifacts from the mission-only skills.

 

#2 is good, but too low. This needs to get from base 15% crit to base 45% crit on Bountiful, Rich, and Wealthy missions. Crits are the only way to produce the artifact level materials that were, before these slots, too rare.

 

#3 is good, but it should be reduced to half or less.

 

Tripling the crit chance and halving the mission time could increase the flow of artifact-level materials into the game sixfold.

 

#4 is an annoyance but not necessary. We can already do this for ourselves. It's just time-consuming and, like I said, annoying. Of course, I asked for it too, because it's really, really annoying.

 

#5 is irrelevant. We have so many blues that the existing 2% - 5% failure rate doesn't matter. Only crits matter. At this point, I'd almost rather see a mission fail than get a normal success, because the failure means I don't have to figure out what to do with even more valueless blue materials. "Yay, even more Biocell Memory Cores..."

 

#6 is interesting, but again not terribly important if we get the combination of #2 and #3 (as I adjusted in my comments). If we put this on top of those, maybe we get a tenfold increase of the number of artifact mats coming into the game. I wouldn't be opposed to this, but I don't know how necessary getting to x10 is if we can already get to x6.

 

#7 that's interesting, too, but doesn't legacy crafting only affect making things and not mission returns? I suppose that increasing the number of "free" items created wouldn't be bad, though. I know whenever I crit, I'm more likely to post more items for fewer credits. Maybe others react similarly.

 

#8 is interesting, no objections there, either.

 

Overall though, I think many items on your list request more game mechanics changes or new features and therefore would take longer to implement and more effort to implement. I'd rather see a fix sooner than later That's why I think we can get by with what amounts to an increase in crit rate - one variable (possibly per mission), hopefully, which again hopefully could be done in the scope of a weekly patch.

Edited January 19, 2015 by DarthTHC

[Yamahara]

Just lower the drop rate of the jawa junk, and raise the jawa junk cost of the mats at the Izzar junk vendor.

[DarthTHC]

Just lower the drop rate of the jawa junk, and raise the jawa junk cost of the mats at the Izzar junk vendor.

 

1 x free = free

 

22 x free = free

 

Doesn't solve the problem.

[ivanhedgehog]

My solution leaves the supply in the hands of anyone who wants to run missions, actually play the crafting part of the game, which is clicking a few extra things as you play the PvE or PvP part of the game. Not "mat barons".

 

Would you be ok if a token dropped that gave PvP rank? So I could clicky clicky for a day and have the same rank as someone who's PvP'd for a few months, and I can get that without ever setting foot in a war zone? Click for a week give or take and I get the cool black & pink Rancor mount? And I never have to actually figure out how to survive or defeat someone in PvP?

 

1st...you can go into wz 's and fall asleep and still get coms. so what? you still wont know how to pvp.

2nd....the slot machine gives tokens that can get mats..it cant craft ANYTHING. you have to go level a skill for those mats to be at all useful.

3rd...I dont care if the slot gives ultimate coms...the gear is crap and you still wont know how to run an op

4th...I dont care if the slot gives mats...you still wont know how to craft a rusaan relic, or anything else

 

I dont give a rodents rear if you dont find running missions to be worth while... nobody cares if running an EV isnt worthwhile..nobody cares that artifice lost all utility as a crystal maker when cartel crystals showed up..the game changes, get over it

you are prepared to damage the game in order to regain your ownership of the high priced mats market. if you dont think nerfing the slot machine would piss off a lot of people and seriously affect their ability to sell hypercrates..you are deluding yourself.

[DarthTHC]

1st...you can go into wz 's and fall asleep and still get coms. so what? you still wont know how to pvp.

2nd....the slot machine gives tokens that can get mats..it cant craft ANYTHING. you have to go level a skill for those mats to be at all useful.

3rd...I dont care if the slot gives ultimate coms...the gear is crap and you still wont know how to run an op

4th...I dont care if the slot gives mats...you still wont know how to craft a rusaan relic, or anything else

 

I dont give a rodents rear if you dont find running missions to be worth while... nobody cares if running an EV isnt worthwhile..nobody cares that artifice lost all utility as a crystal maker when cartel crystals showed up..the game changes, get over it

you are prepared to damage the game in order to regain your ownership of the high priced mats market. if you dont think nerfing the slot machine would piss off a lot of people and seriously affect their ability to sell hypercrates..you are deluding yourself.

 

You know... it just doesn't matter. It's going to be nerfed, and nerfed hard. It's all according to their plan. Just watch.

[EnkiduNineEight]

You also have the cost of leveling up your skills, reverse-engineering, etc. And there needs to be enough profit in each item to make it worthwhile for the crafter to even make the thing, else they won't.

 

You say 2-3 times mark-up in the game is silly. Consider Biochem consumables. Cost to produce one prototype (purple) medpac is about 1,000 credits. They are made in stacks of 6 though so let's say 6 for 6,000.

 

You're saying crafters should be happy doing all they do, raising their skills, reverse-engineering, running missions including the stupid travel dance, figuring out how much materials actually do cost, managing inventory, managing GTN sales, etc., to make 6,000 credits when they sell that stack for 12,765 (gtn fee of 6%)?

 

Me, I won't craft those any more.

 

But wait, as an added bonus, now that we're in the realm of ZERO cost of materials... 2-3 times ZERO is...

 

So we should just do all that crafting and posting and slot machine clicking and GTN management and inventory management etc. because it's fun? Watch GTN empty out.

 

Dude, for the most part I believe we're on the same side. I was just stating my opinion that I think that markup is steep considering the lack of other expenses. I am aware there are other expenses, but nothing like the ongoing expenses a real bricka nd mortar business would have to content with to justify that sort of expense.

 

That said, I also said that the prices being charged were within reason as what the market would bear based on people ability to make/earn cash in game.

 

Its 'high' but not unreasonable. I just think pricing your goods under the same model you would for a real life good is a bit of a stretch.

[EnkiduNineEight]

I also do not agree that the Scrap drops from Slots should be removed. I think as ann alternative to crafting missions its a fine idea, just needs some better tuning for the rate of return so that it is more of a credit sink and thus beneficial for the economy.

 

My own suggestion is to lower the rate of return of items easily converted to cash.

increase the cost of slots, per pull while lowering the win percentage.

As an incentive, add to the prize vaults items from prior Cartel Packs/Shipments (never the current shipment, only way to obtain items from it should be through purchasing packs either from the market or the gtn) with 'ultra rare' items dropping at slightly higher rate than the Kingpin Rancor dropped.

 

This has several benefits.

 

Tool can still be used as a fun way to gather materials that is interactive as opposed to passive (companion missions) but because reward is more steady and reliable should not be as high. Overall cost per mat should exceed those of gathering missions.

 

It becomes a method to fill out your cartel collections by being an in game currency sink. If concerned items will be vendored it is easy enough to force them to bind on acquisition.

 

The problem I have with the slots presently is they are the loosest slots ever. The house is making no money on them and so the house is going to go bankrupt.