Bioware, please consider some PvP Balancing by actual Skilled Arena players.

[Evolixe]

The problem I have with sin/shadow's "god mode" is that it's both penalty-less AND on the shortest cooldown of any class' big-DCD. For example, mara's Undying Rage costs half their hp, and the sorc's Force Barrier makes them unable to move or attack, and is on one of the longest cooldowns. Force Shroud seriously needs to have a cooldown on par with every other class' big-DCD (ie 2-3 mins). But no~ instead of balancing that out, they just gave them more immunities. I'm still trying to figure out the reasoning on that..

 

Shroud doesnt do anything against white damage. Unyding works against all damage.

 

It's not even in the same league.

 

 

Literally every single class can still damage me in shroud save for sorcs.

And even they can do something if they go in melee range.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Evolixe

[SeanFM]

Shroud doesn't do anything against white damage. Undying works against all damage.

 

It's not even in the same league.

 

Literally every single class can still damage me in shroud save for sorcs.

And even they can do something if they go in melee range.

 

I don't think Shroud needs a 2-3 min cd at all but to say it isn't in the same league simply isn't true. Apart from marksman and carnage (which are no where near the most commonly played specs in 4s) people are going to burst you down with yellow damage. Then there's the fact that Shroud purges all dots on you. If you hit UR when you have all the dots from the double madness comp you're against, those dots will still be there when UR ends eating away at your health immediately. And also you can use Shroud twice as often as UR and at whatever health you like, you don't have to wait until you are in execute range for fear of halving your health. UR may be a stronger cd, but in practice Shroud is much more versatile and useful. Saying they aren't in the same league simply isn't true.

Edited January 17, 2015 by SeanFM

[Nekrall]

Shroud doesnt do anything against white damage. Unyding works against all damage.

 

It's not even in the same league.

 

 

Literally every single class can still damage me in shroud save for sorcs.

And even they can do something if they go in melee range.

 

And you can only be cc'ed by low slash while shroud is up. How is this always conveniently left out of the discussion? Lol

[Evolixe]

And you can only be cc'ed by low slash while shroud is up. How is this always conveniently left out of the discussion? Lol

 

And leg shot! D:

 

But given it doesn't bug out, you do have a point there. I'll give you that much

[Evolixe]

I don't think Shroud needs a 2-3 min cd at all but to say it isn't in the same league simply isn't true. Apart from marksman and carnage (which are no where near the most commonly played specs in 4s) people are going to burst you down with yellow damage. Then there's the fact that Shroud purges all dots on you. If you hit UR when you have all the dots from the double madness comp you're against, those dots will still be there when UR ends eating away at your health immediately. And also you can use Shroud twice as often as UR and at whatever health you like, you don't have to wait until you are in execute range for fear of halving your health. UR may be a stronger cd, but in practice Shroud is much more versatile and useful. Saying they aren't in the same league simply isn't true.

 

Fair enough, but they are quite simply not comparible cooldowns for those exact reasons.

[Evolixe]

I just found it important to leave this here too:

 

No. Cater to a better game. Balancing towards proper play will force people to become better or stay ignorant.

The difference is that the people that are ignorant don't know any better anyway so that doesn't really matter.

 

It'll also appeal better to newer players.

A properly balanced game serves everyone better. Not only the people that are good.

 

 

And just to add to the argument:

 

Balancing around the average/lower segment players in the game will just make them lazy.. think they are already performing well enough and don't need to improve. It works in an inverted way on your playerbase when you cater too much towards them.

 

 

If you all of a sudden find yourself in this argument, and think "hey... that could actually be me.." then you've fallen victim to the Bioware approach of developing this game. All is not lost though.., but you need to put effort towards becoming a better player.

[Insomniaq-]

Revised assassin changes, let me know what you think.

 

Remove Bloodletting (Your DoTs have a 30% chance to reset the cooldown on assassinate and allows it to be used on target at any health level.) Lower the base damage of Leeching strike by ~33%

Edited January 18, 2015 by Insomniaq-

[Insomniaq-]

Basically, bring back ranked 8v8 ?

Hell yes.

 

edit : wow, seems i totally missread you, sorry:p

Honestly, i think we must not ask too much at a time to BW, so create another bracket, look individually who's good/bad...

Newbies should ask the top skilled/good ones 1st, some are jerks, some very willing to help, group up a bit etc.

But i can they guess they're mercyless about the ones that just can't think twice about themselves, crying allover and/or (maybe the worst thing), are full of themselves/not open-minded.

 

Hell yeah, bring back 8v8 ranked

 

Also, I always help people when they ask me questions, rotations, tips and gearing. Can't speak for others though.

[SOULCASTER]

Revised assassin changes, let me know what you think.

 

Remove Bloodletting (Your DoTs have a 30% chance to reset the cooldown on assassinate and allows it to be used on target at any health level.) Lower the base damage of Leeching strike by ~33%

 

I would leave leaching strike alone, especially if you are in the group (like me) suggesting that the bloodletting dispatch be removed entirely.

[Insomniaq-]

I would leave leaching strike alone, especially if you are in the group (like me) suggesting that the bloodletting dispatch be removed entirely.

 

It still hits for around 10k on crits making it really bursty/adding survivability on top of all the dots

Edited January 18, 2015 by Insomniaq-

[alexsamma]

It still hits for around 10k on crits making it really bursty/adding survivability on top of all the dots

 

Which isn't an issue if you remove bloodletting, no reason to neuter the burst entirely, and hatred is dependent on self heals for survivalbility so I'm not sure why you want to nerf that (if they lose most of their single target burst they need to have good survivalbility).

 

Other suggestions:

Raze does not proc Mind Crush after level 57,: currently you can proc raze, hold the proc for a few gcds and then instant cast devour, melee to proc raze, instant cast MC

Force Slow no longer heals you (prob. a bug, but just in case it is intentional)

Edited January 18, 2015 by alexsamma

[Insomniaq-]

Which isn't an issue if you remove bloodletting, no reason to neuter the burst entirely, and hatred is dependent on self heals for survivalbility so I'm not sure why you want to nerf that (if they lose most of their single target burst they need to have good survivalbility).

 

Other suggestions:

Raze does not proc Mind Crush after level 57,: currently you can proc raze, hold the proc for a few gcds and then instant cast devour, melee to proc raze, instant cast MC

Force Slow no longer heals you (prob. a bug, but just in case it is intentional)

 

Eh... they have force shroud... and force shroud on stealth... and deflection...and overcharge saber

[Xeraz]

This is categorically false. The only team that can beat double hatred sin is another team running double hatred sin. Or hatred sin AP powertech if they are vastly better players. Underperforming classes right now are doing poorly in regs, solo q, and group ranked. Mercs, snipers, and marauders comprise the short list.

 

And how is this any different than previous seasons? For the first time ever all 3 healers have viability. Additionally, all 3 tank classes are fair game. Although I won't disagree that PT and Sin are overperforming it doesn't change the fact that the other classes actually do better now than previously. Dps Operative and Dps Merc are both better now than they have ever been in season 1-3. Additionally Snipers are, imho, about as good as they once were. Just requires a hardswap comp.

 

Also, as for your double hatred claim.. definitely overrated. That is an extremely powerful comp but to imply it's unbeatable just shows a lack of depth in your thinking.

 

Group ranked has never been this balanced? Rofl, sure.

If you find it acceptable half the advanced classes can't even participate.

 

I would argue this statement is false. Regardless, balance is STILL better than previous seasons. Like... did you guys just totally forget seasons 1-3 once 3.0 dropped?

Edited January 18, 2015 by Xeraz

[alexsamma]

Eh... they have force shroud... and force shroud on stealth... and deflection...and overcharge saber

 

Outside of their cool downs a hatred sin is a melee dps wearing paper tissue for armor, if you are not actively self healing through dot application and keeping leaching on CD you are going to burn dcds extremely fast under focus fire and then you're basically a moving target dummy for roughly a minute .

 

Hatred assassins have a 16.74% (on fleet) DR, that is the lowest DR in the game (lower than sorc).

 

It was not that long ago that madness on a sin was referred to as sadness; as OP as the spec is currently I think the devs should be careful in nerfing it back down to the point that it is non-viable.

[Aetideus]

Ideas towards fixing the Overtuned classes (Powertech and Hatred Assassins)

 

Fix for pt: slow rockets put them back on the 1 second global. remove autocrit on energy burst bring back 15% crit chance on railshot at all times.

 

Fix for hatred assassins: Remove Bloodletting (Your DoTs have a 30% chance to reset the cooldown on assassinate and allows it to be used on target at any health level.) Lower the base damage of Leeching strike by ~33%

 

Feel free to suggest for this and how other classes can be helped.

 

Tbh I would be expecting something different from an experienced player.

"Remove" Bloodletting is an oversimplification.

How about getting the self-heals from Serenity, FB and dots to the 75% of the current and Serenity strike dmg to 75%? Or redesign Physic Absorption entirely. Replace stun immunity of Sturdiness to 25% f/t DR.

 

Also for PT there is an oversimplification. Although the 1s SC icd is needed, is not going to resolve the issue. It is in a total 1m 7s cd until utilized and still there are 14k hits from EB. EB dmg should be reduced to 75% (with additional survivability buffs).

Edited January 18, 2015 by Aetideus

[Insomniaq-]

Tbh I would be expecting something different from an experienced player.

"Remove" Bloodletting is an oversimplification.

How about getting the 100% self-heals from Serenity and dots to 75% and Serenity strike dmg to 75%?

 

Also for PT there is an oversimplification. Although the 1s icd is needed, is not going to resolve the issue. It is in a total 1m 7s cd until utilized and still there are 14k hits from EB. EB dmg should be reduced to 75% (with additional survivability buffs).

 

Lol... we can't just nerf the class to the ground man. The whole point is that they have way too much survivability and damage

Edited January 18, 2015 by Insomniaq-

[Aetideus]

Lol... we can't just nerf the class to the ground man. The whole point is that they have way too much survivability and damage

 

Removing Bloodletting is a nerf to the ground. Adjusting the survivability through self-heals and the dmg of Serenity Strike by 25% does not change the spec style. It is less lethal.

Added those as well: Or redesign Physic Absorption entirely. Replace stun immunity of Sturdiness to 25% f/t DR.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Aetideus

[Evolixe]

You cant really touch the damage of leeching strike directly without affecting pve. Neither the bloodletting proc.

 

Changes there are going to have to be a bit more ingenious so they don't hit PvE. Where Serenity is strong, but not OP.

[foxmob]

Also for PT there is an oversimplification. Although the 1s SC icd is needed, is not going to resolve the issue. It is in a total 1m 7s cd until utilized and still there are 14k hits from EB. EB dmg should be reduced to 75% (with additional survivability buffs).

 

if you're going to neuter EB, I think you at least have to reduce its "cd." at 75%, I'd cut the "cd" in half (2 stacks). now you've cut down burst without breaking (in fact slightly increasing) sustained. but I still disagree on making any other changes until you actually see the class in action w/o the broken SC. I don't like preloading it with out of combat heal. I don't think that would matter at all if it's a 2-stack abil, and it matters only w/o heals & tank at present.

[MotorCityMan]

So, if we post a lot about how other classes are OP will they nerf them and not the class we play?

[Capote]

Great post insomaniaq. Even if they don't use your idea they should at least read the opinions for class balancing. If I may, I'd like you to consider a couple things to add:

 

- Sorcerers are probably the most misunderstood class in the game ATM. People asking for a nerf clearly have no idea on the current state of the class or what the problem actually is. First of all, we need to separate the 2 DPS specs:

 

1. Lightning is not OP, it is BUGGED. People seem to keep missing this (or perhaps they are too lazy to read about it). Lightning sorcerer is BUGGED when it comes to his interrupt immunity. There are several topics about this around. Even if it wasn`t, it would be completely idiotic to nerf the sorcerer DPS output when the problem is not there. Instead, correct and then tweak (if needed) his interrupt immunity, or maybe the endure bastion. Still, a couple LIGHT changes would solve all problems in this spec.

 

2. Madness is, in my opinion, on a fair situation right now. The high numbers on a warzone can be very, very deceiving since it`s a lot of fluffy/dot spreading. It`s viable, but far from OP.

 

3. Corruption is simply better than the other healers. I don't know if the solution is to nerf him or to bring the other 2 on pair.

 

- Juggs. I do agree with you that they are on a reasonable position right now and shouldn't be nerfed. But I'd like to know your opinion on the extensive defensive tools that the jugg has and makes him always the last one to be focused. I believe that the H2F + return damage + immunities + all CCs made his toolkit A LITTLE BIT too much. Again, this is not a case of DPS nerf. Some changes on defensive cooldowns are more than enough, in my opinion.

 

- AP PT. Signed. But please don't forged to buff the pyro pt. You can do some damage in warzones, yes, due to the current state of DOTs, but it is still a lot underpowered when compared to pretty much every melee spec in the game (with the exception of the marauder, of course).

 

- Operatives. It is very, very risky to change this class. A small change can make it extremely overpowered as both DPS and heals. Perhaps give him more survivability as DPS, but please remove the HOT spreading from him (or let he use only on himself when DPSing). As a healer I refer to my opinion on the corruption sorcerer above.

 

- Marauders. If they reverted a couple changes it`d probably be enough. Thing is the class got nerfed too many times in sequence. Just a chain of bad decisions in class balancing.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Capote

[DarkSaberMaster]

So, if we post a lot about how other classes are OP will they nerf them and not the class we play?

 

You didn't know?

[Jinre_the_Jedi]

As someone who's played assassin when they were OP with tank stance and self heals, then neutered, then nerfed some more, then buffed, then nerfed even more and then finally buffed in 2.10 and again in 3.0, I agree that Hatred is currently very strong. However, I don't believe it's over the top, and I believe that people are looking at the wrong place for where to fix Assassins.

 

On paper, healing for 25% of dot damage, 100% of leeching strike damage and a heal on death field as well looks OP as hell. In practice however, any real assassin player knows that it's fairly balanced. Even people who 1v1 a good assassin will agree that the spec itself is versatile yet respectable. The problem isn't with Hatred spec at all, it's with:

 

Utilities.

 

What makes Hatred appear over the top is the amount of versatility the new 3.0 patch gave it. You can have 9 seconds of force shroud which equates to 9 seconds of force and tech immunity as well as 100% force/tech damage reduction. Prior to 3.0, the max was only 3 seconds of shroud as Dps. Sins also get 12 seconds of complete cc immunity, bar knock backs/physics, from Deflection. Why is this a big deal? Because prior to 3.0, Deflection was 100% useless against a sorc and 75% useless vs an operative or any non white damage class. Add to this, the root break on Force Speed, the root on Overload which has so much utility in itself...

 

Do you see the issue now? It's not that Hatred by itself is OP, it's that when you combine Hatred damage and self heals with 21 seconds of cc immunity as well as root break and an additional 5 second knockback root, that it becomes a monster.

 

We have the tools to deal damage and slowly regenerate health pools, all while avoiding being locked down at the same time. So to all you saying nerf Hatred, that's the wrong direction to take. Because even with nerfed numbers, if utilities are kept the same, it won't matter, there will still be QQ about how OP Hatred is.

 

Last point, for comparisons sake, let's compare Hatred sins with Veng juggs. Both specs offer raw damage potential. Both specs have insane DCDs, with sins only recently getting them in 3.0. What makes the Sin OP and the jugg not? Stealth. The assassin by nature can choose how and when and on what terms a fight happens. They can use stealth for positional advantage by sneaking into the team on orbital and knocking down 2+ teammates while rooting them for 5 seconds each and isolating their team mate for heavy Dps. Then sins can proceed to lol shroud all incoming ccs, pop deflection and Dps away. The jugg doesn't have that element of surprise, all of the juggs tactics are telegraphed.

 

So all in all, these are my views as a Veteren assassin player. Agree, disagree, I'm open for discussion

[foxmob]

- Operatives. It is very, very risky to change this class. A small change can make it extremely overpowered as both DPS and heals. Perhaps give him more survivability as DPS, but please remove the HOT spreading from him (or let he use only on himself when DPSing). As a healer I refer to my opinion on the corruption sorcerer above.

what's wrong with dps survivability? both dps specs have very good survivability. you can't just sit there going through your rotation, or you'll melt, but new roll mechanics + passive healing probe redesign + the usual stealth bag of tricks makes them exactly what a stealth melee should be, imo. in the hands of a good player, shouldn't die. and should do very high dps. changing their survivability for yolos would necessitate a nerf to dmg that I wouldn't want, if it were me.

 

- Marauders. If they reverted a couple changes it`d probably be enough. Thing is the class got nerfed too many times in sequence. Just a chain of bad decisions in class balancing.

I wouldn't call them all bad changes, but it does seem like BW doesn't do the math with their nerfs over time. like a 2nd nerf necessitates undoing a prior nerf, but they leave the prior one in place.

 

like what I saw in the other stuffs.

[Aetideus]

You cant really touch the damage of leeching strike directly without affecting pve. Neither the bloodletting proc.

 

Changes there are going to have to be a bit more ingenious so they don't hit PvE. Where Serenity is strong, but not OP.

 

Yes Serenity cut will affect PvE, but is -25% of one ability. Already the pve parse is of the highest. The main idea of what is proposed is to reduce heals. Either from the Dis passive or from dmg reduction.

Pvers do not care that much about heals.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Aetideus