Bioware, please consider some PvP Balancing by actual Skilled Arena players.

[SeanFM]

OR remove dot-spread and leave dots un-cleansable.

 

I highly doubt they would do that, because of PvE. They wanted everyone to have AoE capabilities or something like that. I think dots being cleansable on a long enough cd would be fine as long as only healers can do it.

[Shatterstar]

You're comparing an immortality cooldown where you can keep offensively against a cooldown that basically puts a CC on yourself for the duration. 2 VERY different things. Also, a sorc doesn't have nearly the amount of armor and passive defenses that you have. It's not even remotely comparible.

 

Same thing with sins.. comparing immortality to shroud?

Rofl I'd give my shroud for the old undying any day of the week. That **** is ridiculous.

 

 

 

The problem is that you stay active for the duration of the cooldown. And the duration is long enough for any healer to get you back to 70%+ hp. It's amplified the more healers are around and in ranked play.. that meant immortal marauders.

 

Unless they make UR also cleanse/protect you from root/stun/snare.. it really wouldn't be that OP by comparison, at all. Compared to what others have right now (looking at you Sins). Sure, you can blow a second CD for the mobility, but you are using two to match what others do in one. Returning it in its full glory might seem excessive (to you), but their defenses sure need help. At most, it should only give maybe a 25-30% heal penalty. As pointed out already, the old skills that made it so you could pop it fairly regular are gone now.

Mara/Sents are in a poor place right now because they lack defensives, and lack the ability to remain on target. The sad state of excessive CC makes it very difficult for a non-stealth melee class to achieve much beyond numerous respawns. This has been an issue for them for awhile now. The game needs less CC in it, really. As I recall, most PVE boss fights don't involve CC use, as bosses are usually immune. (Been away a bit, so not sure about newer fights.) So removing some shouldn't hurt that side of the game, and it sure would make for more fun in pvp.

 

Now, any class, when focused by numerous foes, should fall down. The problem is that we have some classes that have too much survivability, and others that don't even really need to be focused to be slain (mara, merc, sniper maybe), one FOTM toon can just solo them. Need to bring the top end down a tad, and give it to those at the bottom.

But, I have played off and on since Beta, and expect Bioware to ignore this thread just like all others. Might as well go outside and yell at the wind for blowing, it has about the same result.

[foxmob]

I highly doubt they would do that, because of PvE. They wanted everyone to have AoE capabilities or something like that. I think dots being cleansable on a long enough cd would be fine as long as only healers can do it.

 

edit: nvm. misread your reply.

 

e2:

Mara/Sents are in a poor place right now because they lack defensives, and lack the ability to remain on target.]

no. yes.

 

they actually have as many or more survivability 'tricks' as any class in the game. I think the second one is more their problem.

Edited January 17, 2015 by foxmob

[Sysyph]

Regarding UR, i'm more or less OK with all you guys said, like:

 

The glory old one might be too much atm, well okay. Basically a second life button with some immortality, especially when used with annihilation berserk and medpack.

But now ? The stun argument is totally correct, since in that case you NEED the assistance of someone (heals) to even justify the use of it (if not, well yes you made the opposite team's CC potential drop by 1, nothing more). In that sense i see it more as a "i negate your burst" DCD (even if high on HP) than a true "oh ****" button, since you already know you WILL be under 50% by the majority of bursts on live.

 

So i'd go for old one, fine with inc healing trauma, or CC immunity or extended duration baseline.

 

Right now almost everyone is saving a stun to kill a mara under UR, it's nearly the same ease as electro net death sentence on a ~50-60% sorc. Difference here is only mercs can plan this for sorcs, but for mara, everyone can

[Evolixe]

Regarding UR, i'm more or less OK with all you guys said, like:

 

The glory old one might be too much atm, well okay. Basically a second life button with some immortality, especially when used with annihilation berserk and medpack.

But now ? The stun argument is totally correct, since in that case you NEED the assistance of someone (heals) to even justify the use of it (if not, well yes you made the opposite team's CC potential drop by 1, nothing more). In that sense i see it more as a "i negate your burst" DCD (even if high on HP) than a true "oh ****" button, since you already know you WILL be under 50% by the majority of bursts on live.

 

So i'd go for old one, fine with inc healing trauma, or CC immunity or extended duration baseline.

 

Right now almost everyone is saving a stun to kill a mara under UR, it's nearly the same ease as electro net death sentence on a ~50-60% sorc. Difference here is only mercs can plan this for sorcs, but for mara, everyone can

 

Exactly my point. Having it cost hp is a bit dirty because it's not usable for anything other than a last line of defense.

But old UR "gg full reset while I keep pounding your back end" is the other end of the line..

 

Taking the middle road, where you can be healed but not to 100%.. is more fair. Imo.

[Sysyph]

From a team ranked perspective, definetely yes.

On another hand, as i guess many players will think outside of that POV, i also consider CC immunity as it will mainly allow the proper use of medpack.

But then, it's for sure a H2F issue (because add healer)

 

On top of that if BW cares to handle anti-kitting issues, marauders will once again be war machines, so i dunno what is best.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Sysyph

[AlrikFassbauer]

I'm quoting myself from that PTS forum sister thread to this one :

 

 

Currently in PvP theres are FOTM players that suck (Sadly... the majority)

 

Then there are skilled players that main classes that ARE FOTM (Which make the class even MORE powerful)

 

Then, bad players that main classes that aren't FOTM that complain a lot (Again the majority of this game..)

 

Then there are skilled players that main classes that aren't FOTM. (Totally unable to compete against Good Players on FOTM classes but still beat the FOTM players that suck.)

 

A few thoughts roaming my mind after reading this :

 

- If class balance was carried out with most skilled players as the "top measure" - doesn't this mean on the other hand that already bad players will suck even more ?

 

- And if so, won't this lead to even more whining that 90 % of PvP solely consists of bad players ?

 

- What did you actually do to make bad players play not that bad ?

 

I quote from GSF here :

 

Try this during the next wargame you're in: If it looks like you're on the side that is going to roll over the other team, hang back and use the /1 general channel to talk to the 'enemy' side and offer strategic advice during the match. Give them some pointers on how to better coordinate their attacks, what targets they should be looking for, general ideas on how they can improve their performance. Occasionally people will think you're a crazy know-it-all, but I've had some success in delivering useful instruction to people in lopsided wargames.

 

Then there are skilled players that main classes that ARE FOTM (Which make the class even MORE powerful

 

- What would be solution against this ? The only solution I can think of is to throw the most skilled players into a kettle with other most skilled players. So that they can't farm bad players.

 

But right now, nobody hinders the most skilled players to enter regs and farm bad players in order to get the newest tier of gear asap.

 

- And last : What is done for protect the bad players from getting farmed by that tiny minority which dominates everything ( not only via skill, but also via class-stacking ) ?

[SkyLordJaden]

Cleanses can easily be tweaked to have longer cooldowns to fix balance. DoTs as they are now (especially with dot-spread) is not only lame but just obnoxious.

 

I personally believe dots should be cleansable.....but I'd also be ok with leaving dot spread and making dots cleanseable, OR remove dot-spread and leave dots un-cleansable.

 

Yea I agree dot spread is pretty bogus, even though I play a madness sorc. I think removing the spread would be a really good solution

[Sysyph]

The top tier/skilled players you're talking about actually don't farm regs that much, nor to gear up fast (they pop 60 full of comms then quickly jump into ranked) or roflstomp newcomers, because they seek some challenge, are in the game for a long time etc. They're somewhat already cut from the majority. What you're talking about is regstars and no need of uber skilled players to match them.

 

To raise general skill, yes some education/advices are needed but some don't listen, can't read tooltips, troll 24/7...the list goes on and on

[Evolixe]

The top tier/skilled players you're talking about actually don't farm regs that much, nor to gear up fast (they pop 60 full of comms then quickly jump into ranked) or roflstomp newcomers, because they seek some challenge, are in the game for a long time etc. They're somewhat already cut from the majority. What you're talking about is regstars and no need of uber skilled players to match them.

 

To raise general skill, yes some education/advices are needed but some don't listen, can't read tooltips, troll 24/7...the list goes on and on

 

It happens plentyful..

 

Challenge is very hard to find in this game. We try to set up things but it doesn't even happen that much.

 

And I play for fun too, solo ranked is a horrible place to be so I rather do regs than that.

[Nekrall]

Exactly my point. Having it cost hp is a bit dirty because it's not usable for anything other than a last line of defense.

But old UR "gg full reset while I keep pounding your back end" is the other end of the line..

 

Taking the middle road, where you can be healed but not to 100%.. is more fair. Imo.

 

Evolix, every class except for marauders and snipers has a dcd they can hit to reset the fight. Kolto, ED, combat stealth, barrier, purges.

 

Marauders were designed around old UR. The change to it was as counter intuitive as it could be.

 

Smash doesnt do ridiculous aoe damage, other classes have been over tuned, and every class has been given an oh **** button. Marauders are the only melee class without a defensive cooldown which allows them to recover. UR can barely be called a dcd in it's current state. Most marauders on Pot5 call it dying rage.

[Sysyph]

I know it still happens, that's why i said "that much" (mean all day long like some do)

 

I agree with what you said, and heard some sad trues a lot know of on azod's stream, people getting bored and BW..."soon":(

[AlrikFassbauer]

The top tier/skilled players you're talking about actually don't farm regs that much, nor to gear up fast (they pop 60 full of comms then quickly jump into ranked) or roflstomp newcomers, because they seek some challenge, are in the game for a long time etc. They're somewhat already cut from the majority.

 

Well, okay, but ... wouldn't it be a good idea to do a bracket for Ranked, too ?

This bracket should be based, then, on skill ... I believe that Bioware should have enough internal databanks to be able to sort out who has had the most kills, for example.

Using this data, Bioware could program the MatchMaker internally so that only the best of the best land in the same bracket ... And of course the same mechanism should be used to make so much better actual matchmaking than is happening right now ...

[Sysyph]

Basically, bring back ranked 8v8 ?

Hell yes.

 

edit : wow, seems i totally missread you, sorry:p

Honestly, i think we must not ask too much at a time to BW, so create another bracket, look individually who's good/bad...

Newbies should ask the top skilled/good ones 1st, some are jerks, some very willing to help, group up a bit etc.

But i can they guess they're mercyless about the ones that just can't think twice about themselves, crying allover and/or (maybe the worst thing), are full of themselves/not open-minded.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Sysyph

[Tellenn]

I agree with this. They need some class reps from pve and pvp.

[Evolixe]

Evolix, every class except for marauders and snipers has a dcd they can hit to reset the fight. Kolto, ED, combat stealth, barrier, purges.

 

Marauders were designed around old UR. The change to it was as counter intuitive as it could be.

 

Smash doesnt do ridiculous aoe damage, other classes have been over tuned, and every class has been given an oh **** button. Marauders are the only melee class without a defensive cooldown which allows them to recover. UR can barely be called a dcd in it's current state. Most marauders on Pot5 call it dying rage.

 

You can't possibly argue that 1.x Marauder survivability was in the right place?

They simply got ignored because they wouldn't die if you tried anyway..

 

 

You need something, UR costing hp sucks and needs to go. UR allowing healing is okay, if it has a max limit to it (only for the duration of UR itself.. after that the limit is instantly removed ofc)

 

I think you would find that, once some mobility issues are resolved too, it would suffice very well.

 

 

Either that, or you get old UR on a 3 minute cooldown with no reductions.

But I think leaving the current cd and putting up a max hp through healing is a lesser evil and allows for more tactical play.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Evolixe

[Nekrall]

You can't possibly argue that 1.x Marauder survivability was in the right place?

They simply got ignored because they wouldn't die if you tried anyway..

 

 

You need something, UR costing hp sucks and needs to go. UR allowing healing is okay, if it has a max limit to it (only for the duration of UR itself.. after that the limit is instantly removed ofc)

 

I think you would find that, once some mobility issues are resolved too, it would suffice very well.

 

 

Either that, or you get old UR on a 3 minute cooldown with no reductions.

But I think leaving the current cd and putting up a max hp through healing is a lesser evil and allows for more tactical play.

 

I actually wrote a longer post describing the issues with undying, but the formatting was messed up from my phone. I appreciate the response.

 

Marauder survivability was too much. Smash also did too much damage. These two problems were hit very hard around patch 2.4 if I'm not mistaken. The Undying Rage nerf that came along with the smash nerf was not justified.

 

The issue with it was the short cooldown, which was a huge drop of the ball by bioware. 1 minute and 15 seconds for that ability? No way that was balanced. It also only took 25% of a smash marauders HP off when activated. The tweaks put into the smash tree in regard to undying, and the marauder set bonus caused this issue. So a smash problem became a marauder problem; and as always, Bioware decided to be as heavy handed as possible.

 

Undying rage taking the health off after the duration is over makes the ability more or less useless, and it is the primary reason marauders are in the sewers right now. Put them up against other classes, force camo is the only thing that will get them out of a bad situation.

 

Marauders don't need cc immunity, they don't need god mode cooldowns, but they do need an oh **** button like every other class does. It also needs to be on a 3 minute cooldown. Reducing the cooldown of a class' last line of defense to under 3 minutes allows it to be used multiple times in one round very easily. If marauders can use undying multiple times in one round, and it takes the health off on activation, they will be put in a position of being over tuned again.

 

I have stated my distaste for the undying changes multiple times. Not because they were a nerf, that was needed; but because the nerf made the cooldown a counter intuitive ability.

 

When undying is used, the marauder is generally in a bad situation. Now when undying wears off, the marauder is put in a worse situation. Marauders face a lot of perils other classes do not. Deciding whether to do damage or have mobility, and defensive cooldowns costing health. It's interesting to the lore, but can put them in the state they are currently in very easily.

 

I have stated multiple times that I would be happy as could be if Undying Rage put the Marauder at 1hp on activation, gave them 100% damage immunity for five seconds, and allowed them to be healed. This would be a great change that takes the lore into consideration, and would actually allow the ability to work as a defensive cooldown again, maybe even baiting newer players into focusing the marauder to no avail.

 

Realistically, a 3 minute cooldown on undying rage, 5 second duration, while taking 50% current health off on activation is very far from ridiculous considering every class except snipers and marauders have the ability to recover from difficult situations.

 

Thanks for your input as always Evolix.

[Evolixe]

The 1hp thing is an interesting concept, and while I think it'd be testworthy for arena.. I'm not sure If I think the same thing for 8v8 regs. Which in all fairness.. we can't just forget about.

 

3 active healers.. even if 1 gets shut down you will still be at 100% by the time you get out of undying.

[foxmob]

Marauders don't need cc immunity, they don't need god mode cooldowns, but they do need an oh **** button like every other class does.

 

I kind of agree, except I would rather no class had this -- aside from a tank spec that doesn't deal much dmg anyway. in any case, mara, merc, sniper and PT are on the outside looking in, in this regard. and I see things going ballistic if maras get this and the others do not.

[Nekrall]

The 1hp thing is an interesting concept, and while I think it'd be testworthy for arena.. I'm not sure If I think the same thing for 8v8 regs. Which in all fairness.. we can't just forget about.

 

3 active healers.. even if 1 gets shut down you will still be at 100% by the time you get out of undying.

 

But you still need to be healed.

 

I don't understand how you can just say "well the healer will still heal you" as a way to discount the change. Yes, the healer has to heal you or you will die.

 

Right now, if you get healed after popping undying, you will still die.

 

Lots of classes with kiting utility, and other defensives have the ability to reset fights, and even heal themselves to full in doing so. This idea is not imbalanced by any means, unless they don't have a 3 minute base cooldown on UR.

 

You're basically saying not to give marauders a defensive cooldown that would alleviate pressure a healer is facing. That's exactly what they need, I'm not sure why you believe that is a problem. That is the entire point of a DcD, and the point you are making shows quite clearly how for all intents and purposes undying rage in its current form is not a defensive cooldown.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Nekrall

[Savej]

You're comparing an immortality cooldown where you can keep offensively against a cooldown that basically puts a CC on yourself for the duration. 2 VERY different things. Also, a sorc doesn't have nearly the amount of armor and passive defenses that you have. It's not even remotely comparible.

 

Same thing with sins.. comparing immortality to shroud?

Rofl I'd give my shroud for the old undying any day of the week. That **** is ridiculous.

 

 

 

The problem is that you stay active for the duration of the cooldown. And the duration is long enough for any healer to get you back to 70%+ hp. It's amplified the more healers are around and in ranked play.. that meant immortal marauders.

 

It is apples to oranges. For my part I would almost always pick a 2nd cc-breaker + cleanse + absorber + focus disperser over any gbtf version. It's too bad we don't have choices in the character manager (after picking our classes/specs).

Edited January 17, 2015 by Savej

[Xeraz]

I've made a thread addressing this before indirectly addressing this. Balance in Group Ranked is NOT the same thing as balance in regs which is NOT the same as balance in Solo Ranked.

 

Group Ranked is pretty much the most balanced it has ever been in 3.0 but the qq rolls on. Of course some tweaks could be made that would benefit all 3 formats. In order to make Solo Ranked better they really need to BUFF some of the weaker classes in that format. You can't just nerf the strong classes because some classes are missing key functions that are requires to perform in that format. As for regs? A lot would need to be done tbh. Dots are Ranged automatically have advantages in regs that would need to be addressed for pure-melee(mara/jugg/oper/deception) to be on-par.

[Nekrall]

Group Ranked is pretty much the most balanced it has ever been in 3.0

 

This is categorically false. The only team that can beat double hatred sin is another team running double hatred sin. Or hatred sin AP powertech if they are vastly better players. Underperforming classes right now are doing poorly in regs, solo q, and group ranked. Mercs, snipers, and marauders comprise the short list.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Nekrall

[Evolixe]

Group ranked has never been this balanced? Rofl, sure.

If you find it acceptable half the advanced classes can't even participate.

[HeatRacer]

The problem I have with sin/shadow's "god mode" is that it's both penalty-less AND on the shortest cooldown of any class' big-DCD. For example, mara's Undying Rage costs half their hp, and the sorc's Force Barrier makes them unable to move or attack, and is on one of the longest cooldowns. Force Shroud seriously needs to have a cooldown on par with every other class' big-DCD (ie 2-3 mins). But no~ instead of balancing that out, they just gave them more immunities. I'm still trying to figure out the reasoning on that.. Edited January 17, 2015 by HeatRacer